Hier are few important things from it.
Let's try to understand it.

§ 8 Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
(1) Auf die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
finden dieselben Vorschriften Anwendung wie
auf die Erteilung.
(2) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis kann in der Regel
nicht verlängert werden, wenn die zuständige Behörde
dies bei einem seiner Zweckbestimmung nach
nur vorübergehenden Aufenthalt bei der Erteilung
oder der zuletzt erfolgten Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
ausgeschlossen hat.

So, here is nothing bad. Our Visa is for only 5 years but nobody wrote that it can not be extended. So it can be verlängert.


§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis
(2) Einem Ausländer ist die Niederlassungserlaubnis
zu erteilen, wenn
1. er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,
2. sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist,
3. er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder
freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung
geleistet hat oder Aufwendungen für
einen Anspruch auf vergleichbare Leistungen einer
Versicherungs- oder Versorgungseinrichtung
oder eines Versicherungsunternehmens nachweist;
berufliche Ausfallzeiten auf Grund von
Kinderbetreuung oder häuslicher Pflege werden
entsprechend angerechnet,

5. ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer
ist,
6. er im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde
Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen
Erlaubnisse ist,

These points 5 and 6 are not clear to me.
Is this same as before so that we need Arbeitsgenehmigung from Arbeitsamt to get PR?
But they said that we should get everything from one place in Ausländersamt.

If it is so, than there is only posibility to extend Visa according to § 8 and after some time to request PR according to § 9.

I hope it will be PR immidiately after 5 years but I don't understand this points 5 and 6.
Anyone knows better?

Hi,
Can anyone tell :
1. What will happen if after 5 years, a GC has no job. Will he/she get PR?
2. What for those GCs who have 80K salary. Can they get PR immediately.. or it is valid only for the NEWCOMERS.
3. For PR do we need unlimited job contract, or the short term also.

regards!

"So, here is nothing bad. Our Visa is for only 5 years but nobody wrote that it can not be extended. So it can be verlängert."

It depends on how you understand IT-AAV. But i know how IT-AAV is understood by officials: after five years no prolongation is possible. otherwise why all those talks (including mass media) that GCs should leave the country after 5 years without new immigration law?

SPD plays political games, and you eagerly swallow the bait *lol* if in the next year Schröder will have to leave his position ... and even if he will not have to - politician today says one, tomorrow completely another; and §8 of this new law + IT-AAV can be very easily made a reason why GCs should leave the country

until you have PR firmly in hands, it's better not to think that you will get it ;)

"§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis"

Here nothing is new - they just combined corresponding part of SGB III (which talks about unlimited work permit) with corresponding part of AuslG (which talks about unlimited residence permit of type "unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis")

what is new, they have excluded unlimited residence permit of type "Aufenthaltsberechtigung". which means: unless you are a Jew, refugee, married on german girl, was born in Germany - you will never have a possibility to get a social aid without a risk to be thrown out from Germany. if you will not get a german citizenship, of course, and i guess that will become more problematic as well.

"1. What will happen if after 5 years, a GC has no job. Will he/she get PR?"

i.d.R. (that is, if he doesn't remember suddenly that he is a Jew or something like that) no.

"2. What for those GCs who have 80K salary. Can they get PR immediately.. or it is valid only for the NEWCOMERS."

if their profession is needed on a market (there is a corresponding regulation), yes. even if officials refuse to give it to him because he is already in Germany, he always can leave the country, get a new entry visa, come here again and get it as a newcomer.

"3. For PR do we need unlimited job contract, or the short term also."

i guess you would need i.d.R. an unlimited job contract, because of these:

"2. sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist"
"6. er im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist"

I don't get it..as I see it it is clear that after 5 years a green-cardler that worked the full 5 years will receive a Niederlassungserlaubnis. I think at least 50% of us is in this category. The point 6 sais that you need to have the calification do that job..ot at least I think it sais thatl

nope. it says that you need to have all necessary permits in order to work. if you work as an IT-professional, it's only a work permit. for other professions, however, you need to have some other permits/licenses as well ;)

trusday:
Here nothing is new - they just combined corresponding part of SGB III (which talks about unlimited work permit) with corresponding part of AuslG (which talks about unlimited residence permit of type "unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"

is this again egg and chick situation or not
if we need unlimited work permit to get PR and
we don't get PR without unlimited work permit than it is kick in the ass after 5 years
acctually that way none could get PR so I don't believe it.
beside they said that we can do all at ausländeramt



trusday:
what is new, they have excluded unlimited residence permit of type "Aufenthaltsberechtigung". which means: unless you are a Jew, refugee, married on german girl, was born in Germany - you will never have a possibility to get a social aid without a risk to be thrown out from Germany. if you will not get a german citizenship, of course, and i guess that will become more problematic as well.

nope
Aufenthaltsberechtigung will be Niederlassungserlaubniß and you don't need to take citizenship for it

Hi all,
What still wonders me is following:

After working 5 years, will we be thrown out if our contract finished?? Or if after 5 years, I have still one year contract valid, do I get the PR?? As I understood (and hope so), that if you have a job after the 5 years, you will get the PR??
Any comments or info? Is the draft of the law out and final?
Thanks
Zash

Hi All,

"is this again egg and chick situation or not if we need unlimited work permit to get PR ..."

lol that what i said, there will be no unlimited work permits, but requirements for one will be part of requirements for getting a Niederlassungserlaubnis

"nope Aufenthaltsberechtigung will be Niederlassungserlaubniß and you don't need to take citizenship for it"

nope. Niederlassungserlaubnis = unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis. difference between unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis and Aufenthaltsberechtigung is very well described in §48 AuslG, "Besonderer Ausweisungsschutz":

(1) Ein Ausländer, der
1. eine Aufenthaltsberechtigung besitzt,
... (Jews, born in Germany with unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis, married on German girls, refugees)

kann nur aus schwerwiegenden Gründen der öffentlichen Sicherheit und Ordnung ausgewiesen werden. Schwerwiegende Gründe der öffentlichen Sicherheit und Ordnung liegen in der Regel in den Fällen des § 47 Abs. 1 vor.

Hi all,
Any ideas when this new low will come to power?
cheers, Eks

Hi All,

From a GC perspective(with a salary less than 80K), new law will not make our situation neither better, nor worse ? correct ?
I am convinced that it will not make the GC situation better but I am fearing that it might even make the situation worse than the current situation with the current law. (concerning duration of employment benefits for foreigners, newly introduced residence permit types etc..)

Regards

Lacrima

Any ideas when this new low will come to power?
cheers, Eks

1.1.05 not certain but very very possible

guys, any comments to what I asked above???

Thanks
Zash

lacrima:
From a GC perspective(with a salary less than 80K), new law will not make our situation neither better, nor worse ? correct ?
I am convinced that it will not make the GC situation better but I am fearing that it might even make the situation worse than the current situation with the current law.

it can not be worse
80k is only important if you want PR at once
if you have 5 years in De than you are in
only problem are these 5 and 6 points
if it is not chicken egg thing, and I believe it isn't than it is very god

trusday:
ope. Niederlassungserlaubnis = unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis. difference between unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis and Aufenthaltsberechtigung is very well described in §48 AuslG, "Besonderer Ausweisungsschutz":


die Niederlassungserlaubnis, die Du ansprichst, ist ein höherer Aufenthaltstitel als die unbefristete AE. Sie entspricht der Aufenthaltsberechtigung.

ZuwG ist besser als AuslG,
da es eine neue Rechtsgrundlage (kein Anspruch) zum
ständigen Aufenthalt in D gibt, nämlich eine
sozialversicherungpflictige Tätigkeit in Deutschland,
Hat man eine solche gefunden, muss nur die Bundesanstalt für Arbeit das gutheissen; das wird dann später wohl ein
formalisiertes Verfahren, während nach der jetzigen
Praxis in Einzeluntersuchung die IHK/Arbeitsamt etc
festellen muss, ob der Arbeitgeber wirklich einen Ausländer
braucht oder es auch ein Deutscher tun würde, der sich dann aber nicht findet und es gibt keinen zusätzlichen Beitragszahler.

http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/
docmain.asp?rub={B1311FCC-FBFB-11D2
-B228-00105A9CAF88}&doc={FD06B532-
FB33-453A-879A-2D6FF2544299}

I am not sure whether you guys gone through this link or not.. but posted just for your info...

VSK

"I am convinced that it will not make the GC situation better but I am fearing that it might even make the situation worse than the current situation with the current law. (concerning duration of employment benefits for foreigners, newly introduced residence permit types etc..)"

I will study differences when there will be a final version of new law accepted by Bundestag and Bundesrat. Now i see that it is not worth my time, just because the law can be changed over and over again

"das wird dann später wohl ein
formalisiertes Verfahren, während nach der jetzigen
Praxis in Einzeluntersuchung die IHK/Arbeitsamt etc
festellen muss, ob der Arbeitgeber wirklich einen Ausländer
braucht oder es auch ein Deutscher tun würde, der sich dann aber nicht findet und es gibt keinen zusätzlichen Beitragszahler."

lol that's exactly what is currently done when it is decided whether a foreigner can get a work and residence permits accordingly to 5.2. AAV or not ;)


btw found a beatiful piece of german law system. here it is:

HAuslG § 22
Einem heimatlosen Ausländer darf die Rückkehr in seine Heimat oder die Auswanderung nicht versagt werden.

please explain me how a person without a home country (which was recognized by german officials) can go back to his home country? :o

http://www.bmi.bund.de/Anlage25594/Einzelheiten_des_Zuwanderungsgesetzes.pdf
Bisheriges doppeltes Genehmigungsverfahren (Arbeit/Aufenthalt) wird durch ein internes Zustimmungsverfahren ersetzt. Die Arbeitsgenehmigung wird in einem Akt mit der Aufenthaltserlaubnis von der Ausländerbe-hörde erteilt, sofern die Arbeitsverwaltung intern zugestimmt hat (one-stop-government).

For those who get 80K you are all great guys and I think as a white collar job it is highly paid salary in Germany and I think this asset of yours should benefit you anyway atleast the person who is dealing your immigration papers should be happy about it and big plus point to you so don't worry :-)

Why do you guys go through the law thoroughly because even you have those defined it is is again the same old story on how you earn your points when you supply your official documents to the Immigration officer. Magic magic!! depends on the place & person so if someone have good knowledge then later when the law is in palce make a check list and help applicants start collecting their documents but the prior thing should be your German language.

I wish to discuss about the requirements when law comes to public rather than poking paragraphs.

"Bisheriges doppeltes Genehmigungsverfahren (Arbeit/Aufenthalt) wird durch ein internes Zustimmungsverfahren ersetzt. Die Arbeitsgenehmigung wird in einem Akt mit der Aufenthaltserlaubnis von der Ausländerbe-hörde erteilt, sofern die Arbeitsverwaltung intern zugestimmt hat (one-stop-government)."

what difference does it make for foreigner? i can tell you.

earlier it was done so: local employment office checks whether foreigner is really needed, decides whether to issue him a work permit or not. if decision is "yes", foreigner has an "Anspruch" on a residence permit, that is local immigration office can not refuse to issue one.

now it will be done so: local employment office checks a labour market regarding particular foreigner, submits results of a labour check to a local immigration office, local immigration office decides whether foreigner is needed in Germany. not necessary to mention that local immigration office can now refuse to give a residence permit to a foreigner (kein Anspruch, as you very rightfully pointed out) even if he is needed on a labour market and there is a public interest in him (creation of new working places) i guess? moreover, now local immigration office can issue him a residence permit for a five years without prolongation possibility even in case of public interest in foreigner, which was not possible with AAV 5.2.

Heh whom are you trying to fool? ZuwG is clearly better for Germany under current curcumstances, as it allows Germany to be more flexible and have more control over immigration of foreigners, but for foreigners it is worse. and GCs it gives nothing; of course it will be told different while H. Shöder rules, just because GC-program is his child and he can not acknowledge that he was wrong despite of horrible statistics of unemployment rate in IT (including GCs *lol*); once H. Shröder is out of play, it will be said that GCs should go home; and even while he is in play, he can say anything, but decisions will be made by local employment and immigration offices; do you think that some dumb community will think how to prolong permits of foreigners when they have unemployed natives with same profession? hheh, i very doubt it ...


SPD awaits a sofortige Verfassungsbeschwerde, that is if my interests will be hurt by ZuwG ;)

yes, and about "Traurig" theme, such a wonderful play from my friends leo and Detlef: do you know what "Mehrheit der Deutschen" will do when foreigners will be made out of Germany by officials in immigration offices? i can tell you.

they will all say how it's sad to lose you, how they do not understand their politicians, how they would like to change the decision of officials if that would be possible, how they will miss you; that it's some terrible mistake but they unfortunately can not change anything; in conclusion they will say how it would be good if the friendship could be carried on further when you arrive to your home country and will ask you not to think bad about Germany. but this - only if foreigners understand their duty (even not immediately, i guess 6-12 months will be given to foreigners to think about necessity to leave, that is if they worked during 5 years; during that time "Mehrheit der Deutschen" even will try to find some good sides in foreigner's home countries and show foreigners that it will probably be better for them there) to leave Germany; however if lots of foreigners do not understand their duties, there are NPD and REP *lol* do you know how many people elect those parties in Sachsen for example? ca. 11-12% - look on p.30 of today's "Der Spiegel" well, in France it is even worse, but they have more foreigners as well, that is which do not want to go home

trusday you are black hole
there is no point talking to you just because you see everything black,nno matter what I say.

I'll point out only one thing. Without Schröder there would be no GC at all

DvD, if there's black, it's because there's white, without the light, there would have been no notion of black and white, dark and light :-)

But trusday does his job well, IMO, getting people back to earth when they are too high in hope :-) His words are sometimes very discouraging, but in fact, they just showe you the other side of the coin, remember that there's always two sides to a story.

D.

Trusday is talking about the facts and unfortunately most of the points that he mentions are "sad but true" things..

It is good to be optimistic and have a good mood all the time, but to be prepared for the worst, we have to face the realities.

Regards

Lacrima

here is all axplained:
http://auslaender-asyl.dav.de/Zuwand-Dr-Marx1.doc

important from there:

1.4.4.2.6. Ordnungsgemäße Beschäftigung (§ 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 5 AufenthG)

Arbeitnehmer müssen den Nachweis führen, dass ihre Beschäftigung erlaubt ist. § 18 AufenthG regelt die entsprechenden Voraussetzungen. Für Ehegatten genügt es, wenn einer der Ehegatten diese Voraussetzung erfüllt (§ 9 Abs. 3 Satz 1 AufenthG).

1.4.4.2.7. Sonstige Berufsausübungserlaubnisse (§ 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 6 AufenthG)

Wie § 24 Abs. 1 Nr. 3 AuslG 1990 verlangt § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 6 AufenthG, dass der Antragsteller im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauerhafte Beschäftigung erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist. Diese Regelung betrifft selbständig erwerbstätige Antragsteller. Diese müssen im Besitz der jeweils erforderlichen besonderen Berufsausübungserlaubnisse für eine dauernde Tätigkeit sein. Dies gilt insbesondere für Ärzte, Heilpraktiker, Zahnärzte, Tierärzte und Apotheker.


also 6 is not for us and 5 is § 18 AufenthG:
eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung

I am a little confused now!!! Not with the law and PR but with the following:
1. Is Trusday a lawyer? Or one of us (GC)??
2. One month ago, Trusday was giving me tricks and hope of how to apply before the 5 year permit finished so I can get the PR, and things seemed very very easy for him... Now, I see that he is only seeing the empty half of the glass and viewing things to be totally complicated and impossible?? Why this contradiction??

It is good to be optimistic and have a good mood all the time, but to be prepared for the worst, we have to face the realities.

Regards

Lacrima

I am prepared for worst case and that is that I will have to make Master Abschluß to stay here.
Best case is PR automatically after 5 years.

"1. What will happen if after 5 years, a GC has no job. Will he/she get PR?"

trusday
i.d.R. (that is, if he doesn't remember suddenly that he is a Jew or something like that) no.


Important question is what will happen if after 5 years, a GC has unbefristete Arbeitsvertrag and naturally no AE because GC lasts only 5 years. Will he/she get PR?

trusday
Heh whom are you trying to fool? ZuwG is clearly better for Germany under current curcumstances, as it allows Germany to be more flexible and have more control over immigration of foreigners, but for foreigners it is worse.

you don't have a clue what was it like to get Visa with old Gesetz.
New gesetz kann be god or bad but for experts it will allways be better, for refugees and terorists maybe worse, but it makes sense because Deutschland is not rich as before and they have to take care that someone that comes here gives money (taxes) and not takes.

That's everything completely OK and I don't see one reason to speak against it.

I dont know why trusday is everytime commenting on some home made speculation. He has a very negative approach . Even though he is correct in some cases, he can answer it in a different positive approach. He always uses terms like' we will all get kicks in our asses at the end of 5 years'. Well, we have to be prepared for that but atleast we should hope that something better will happen. I think no lawmaker can make a law which is against us just because they know that after 5 years of expereince we will not be considered as waste. We will be defintely in a better position than the fresh guys. We can all argue about that IT jobs are not secure and the economy is just not doing well. Just imagine, the bosses who employed us all have the hope that we will get an extension so why need to worry. The law might be difficult for us but i still believe that there should be a loop hole for us to atleast extend our workpermits.

The only problem with these useless discussions are that some one who reads what trusday is speculating will come to a false conclusion , which might change his/her future. I would better go to a lawyer and ask and that too only after the law is passed. I would not listen to trusday's comments as just he is also in the same boat like us and sometimes i feel that he is dictating his terms.

We all should not forget that Detlef really worked hard for us to make sure that something better will happen and he had very high hopes that the immigration law will be passed.

Well, we will see what happens after the finaly law is finished and approved and then we have to wait for August 2005 to see the first GC to apply for his residenship

"there is no point talking to you just because you see everything black,nno matter what I say."

how can i see it different if i hear from officials "nach Hause" every time i talk with them, from 2002? last time was end of may this year, in local employment office, when it was clear that new immigration law WILL be accepted, and soon?

"I'll point out only one thing. Without Schröder there would be no GC at all"

sure, and people who came to Germany would go to other countries and by now have a PR there. if you remember that time (when GC program was started), it was stated as well that 5-year-limit is temporary, and in 1-2 years will be replaced by a PR accordingly to a new law. of course at that time (2000) market needed IT specialists and now there is a big unemployment rate in IT *lol*

"Arbeitnehmer müssen den Nachweis führen, dass ihre Beschäftigung erlaubt ist."

Good! previously this task was a responsibility of employer, now employee will have to prove that his work is of public interest and is allowed by some regulation of a government

Gj, really, employer needs to think how to earn money for new work places, not how to make paperwork in order to be allowed to have a foreigner working for him

"1. Is Trusday a lawyer? Or one of us (GC)??"

I am GC

"2. One month ago, Trusday was giving me tricks and hope of how to apply before the 5 year permit finished so I can get the PR, and things seemed very very easy for him... Now, I see that he is only seeing the empty half of the glass and viewing things to be totally complicated and impossible?? Why this contradiction??"

well the tricks which work now may not work when a new law comes into force, don't you think so? or at least not all of them. but in order to be able to say something for sure, a new law must be accepted and VwV to it made public; right now i can and do only tell my opinion about new law and the purpose of it ;)

"Important question is what will happen if after 5 years, a GC has unbefristete Arbeitsvertrag and naturally no AE because GC lasts only 5 years. Will he/she get PR?"

why not, if he worked all five years and submits an application before his work permit expires, in two months for example (and he has to submit an application BEFORE, ask the ones who are here accordingly to 5.2. AAV)? and if he did not work all five years, his limited work permit can be prolonged up to 5 years work in total. once he has unlimited work permit, he gets PR without problems NOW. but with new immigration law officials can say that his residence permit was initially issued with a limitation to 5 years only, and therefore can not be prolonged.

"you don't have a clue what was it like to get Visa with old Gesetz. New gesetz kann be god or bad but for experts it will allways be better"

For experts which Germany needs, yes. For experts which are here but are really not needed on the labour market ...

And no sense to say that nobody will come to Germany any more if GCs are thrown out: if this will be a case, Germany can always suggest to experts (which will be needed) a PR from the start, it is possible accordingly to new law. As i said, new law gives much more possibilities to Germany, but is not so good for foreigners ;)

"sometimes i feel that he is dictating his terms."

lol why, do i tell you what you must do? i am only telling people my opinion, they are welcomed to read it and make conclusions themselves.

"We all should not forget that Detlef really worked hard for us to make sure that something better will happen and he had very high hopes that the immigration law will be passed."

i wonder which party Detlef supports as well ...

I believe that what is going on here is pure bullshit... Everyone is trying to understand the law and then gives definite conclusions which makes the other totally lost and confused....
I believe it is all a waste of time with these discussions...

Hi All,
I am working in a company as a Doktorand (ofcourse with the supervision of a professor from a uni). I came to Germany in 2000 to study and completed my MSc in IT from a German university last year. Immediately after finishing my study, I started working as a Doktorand. Currently I have an arbeitserlaubnes vaild for 1 year. My Doktorand contract is for 2 years and extendable to 1 further year. I have a concrete project where I have to do some research and finally I need to implement the project. I have a 1-year visa until October this year.

Now I have some questions : Is it possible that I can apply for a permanent residence (PR) at the start of 2005 (most probably) when the immigration law comes into effect?

Can I assume my case like this : §16 (4) states that after the completion of one’s study in Germany he can lengthen his residence according to §18 to §21.
According to §18(5), one can be granted a PR (§19) when he has an arbeitserlaubnes. According to §19, one can be granted a PR if he is a
Scientific Co-worker ( Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter) with a special function.

I would like to have your suggestions and comments about my case.

Thanks in advance!

M.

trusday wrote:
"what is new, they have excluded unlimited residence permit of type "Aufenthaltsberechtigung". which means: unless you are a Jew, refugee, married on german girl, was born in Germany - you will never have a possibility to get a social aid without a risk to be thrown out from Germany. if you will not get a german citizenship, of course, and i guess that will become more problematic as well."

Firstly, I don't know if the Jews got such facility. In fact, there are just few Jews in Germany.
And then, what are you doing trusday? You wrote so many in your work hour? Where are you working, it is very attractive for me if I can work just you do:-)

Regards,
NN

Trusday has right with his comments,
congratulations.

"Firstly, I don't know if the Jews got such facility. In fact, there are just few Jews in Germany."

come to your local Sozialamt one day and listen in which language people speak there. most of the people sitting there are russian Jews ;)

"And then, what are you doing trusday? You wrote so many in your work hour? Where are you working, it is very attractive for me if I can work just you do"

lol i am currently unemployed, therefore somewhat free when distributing my time ;)

Hi trusday,

you wrote...
i wonder which party Detlef supports as well ...

What do you mean with 'which party'? Do you mean which group within the discussion? If so, I see just one group, the GCs. Even if there are different opinions, you have the same interests and your interests are mine, since many years now.

At the moment I feel very satisfied, because now it is sure, that the immigration law will come. I am very optimistic, that it will improve the situation off all GCS. Of course, I do not know the complete content of the law, so I do not take part in the discussion about it.

By the way... I appreciate your part in our forums and I am impressed by your knowledge of laws, etc. and I think you already could help many GCs with your advice, so please take mine... just try to take everything more easy, than it will be easier :-)

And what the hell do you mean with 'lol'??

Good luck
Detlef

"lol i am currently unemployed, therefore somewhat free when distributing my time"

Now I see why are you pesimist. Perhaps I would be too.
I advice you to make some short Master Studiengang of one year or two. Than you will be back in the game in any case.
Perhaps you will have to pay for it (if you allready have one it will cost ~ 750/Semester) but that is nothing because you get chance to get PR after.

"so please take mine... just try to take everything more easy, than it will be easier"

well, i would say it's not an advice but an axiom: if somebody agrees with everything, then for others it will be much easier, whatever their intentions are. H. Shröder needs to hear this advice as well, it probably could change his intention to fight for his reforms regardless of lack of supporters. there is one big difference between us though: i stay only for myself (that is, other people want to dictate me their will), and H. Shröder wants to dictate his will to whole Germany :p

"And what the hell do you mean with 'lol'??"

ahh this means nothing, just like smileys. probably only shows that i am always in good mood

"I advice you to make some short Master Studiengang of one year or two. Than you will be back in the game in any case. Perhaps you will have to pay for it (if you allready have one it will cost ~ 750/Semester)"

well if my local employment office can find money for that (which is possible, although not very likely) and if my local immigration office will not object to change conditions in my residence permit (which is not likely at all), i would take that advice without any hesitation. but as i see the current situation, it's more likely that officials by their actions will make it necessary for me to learn the profession of a lawyer ;)

"but that is nothing because you get chance to get PR after."

you see, i see this in somewhat different way. other GCs beg for possibility to live in Germany; i say that i have right for that

"well if my local employment office can find money for that (which is possible, although not very likely) and if my local immigration office will not object to change conditions in my residence permit (which is not likely at all), i would take that advice without any hesitation. but as i see the current situation, it's more likely that officials by their actions will make it necessary for me to learn the profession of a lawyer"

do not expect to get money from AA and do not change RP. that would be big mistake.
what I mean is that you pay studiengang from Arbeitslosgeld or -hilfe. But if you have only Bachelor Abschluß then MastStud ist kostenlos. When you have M Sc titel it is posible that you can kostenloss studieren if your Titel ist nicht anerkant as M but as a Bachelor.

also I did not meant that you quit searching job.
You should search weiter and do MS berufsbegleitend so that when you find job you can do studium together with job
I am working and studing also, allthough I have Master titel

"do not expect to get money from AA and do not change RP. that would be big mistake."

Generally i can not legally study in Germany with my residence permit, because in conditions it is written that it was given to me for the purpose of work as an IT-professional. it is possible however if i am employed part-time as an IT-professional and study in the same time; or if local employment office recognizes necessity of additional study in order to find me a job, but then they have to pay for it.

by changing residence permit i meant elimination of conditions, not changing it from "erlaubnis" to "bewilligung". that is possible as well, if local immigration office would agree, which is very doubtful in my case.

"what I mean is that you pay studiengang from Arbeitslosgeld or -hilfe."

heh don't you think that local employment office will stop paying me anything when they learn that i study without getting their agreement? it is very possible, because one of the prerequisites for getting unemployment benefit from employment office is: i have to be able to accept any reasonable job; how would i able to do that if i study?

"But if you have only Bachelor Abschluß then MastStud ist kostenlos. When you have M Sc titel it is posible that you can kostenloss studieren if your Titel ist nicht anerkant as M but as a Bachelor."

i have PhD in theory of probability and math. statistics, so additional study will not be free for me in any case

"You should search weiter and do MS berufsbegleitend so that when you find job you can do studium together with job. I am working and studing also, allthough I have Master titel"

i will not have enough time, because i have to defend myself from officials that want to get me out of Germany. btw i am sure that if you work full-time, it is illegal as well, just do not have time right now to find corresponding places in laws; but officials can and WILL use this against you when they have some reason to do so.


basically i never understood people who work "schwarz" or do something else that is not legally allowed, because by that they basically become dependent from official's will and lose their rights; once officials would like to get such person out of Germany, they wouldn't really have many problems with that. lol you guys create problems for yourself, then complain how it is unfair towards foreigners in Germany.

Hi Trusday,
GC's are not begging to stay in Germany! If some of the GC's are optimistic about staying in Germany after 5 yrs you cannot call it begging! You keep expressing your cynical views here probably because of your personal problems or experiences. But some of those views make just readers of this forum(like me) to respond. The unemployment benefits you are getting is out of the unemployment insurance paid by the GC'S and others. After all insurance works that way. So don't bite the hand that feeds you. Should I say lol here ?

"Generally i can not legally study in Germany with my residence permit, because in conditions it is written that it was given to me for the purpose of work as an IT-professional."

nonsense. if you do not see in your pass: Studium nicht erlaubt (look)
then it is erlaubt

"it is possible however if i am employed part-time as an IT-professional and study in the same time"

I'am working full time

"heh don't you think that local employment office will stop paying me anything when they learn that i study without getting their agreement? it is very possible, because one of the prerequisites for getting unemployment benefit from employment office is: i have to be able to accept any reasonable job; how would i able to do that if i study?"

that is nonsence if studium ist Abendsstudium.

"i have PhD in theory of probability and math. statistics, so additional study will not be free for me in any case"

nope. you can do additional PhD or PostDoc or Habilitation. All these are allways for free and with your CV you could get it.

"i will not have enough time, because i have to defend myself from officials that want to get me out of Germany. btw i am sure that if you work full-time, it is illegal as well"

do not be afraid if your visum is for 5 years and without name of the Firma. Then you got lucky and they can not do anithing to you. Unless you do some crime.
They can send someone home only if he has Visum for only one firma or for shorter time.

basically i never understood people who work "schwarz" or do something else that is not legally allowed, because by that they basically become dependent from official's will and lose their rights; once officials would like to get such person out of Germany, they wouldn't really have many problems with that. lol you guys create problems for yourself, then complain how it is unfair towards foreigners in Germany.

you create problems for your self not me.
Truth is that you search til everything is black.
I search till everything is white and then I stop.
Because of that you did not find out that Promotion and Habilitation are allways for free.

"Generally i can not legally study in Germany with my residence permit, because in conditions it is written that it was given to me for the purpose of work as an IT-professional."

can you generally go to WC with your residence permit, since in conditions it is written that it was given to you for the purpose of work as an IT-professional, and if you are in WC at the moment you can certainly not work as an IT-professional at that moment.

@DvD

I have a question. You have mentioned in your reply to trusday that

"do not be afraid if your visum is for 5 years and without name of the Firma. "

What if the name of the company is mentioned? Isnt there a way out then where I can do this Abendstudium?

Regards,
Fred (Wiesbaden)

"What if the name of the company is mentioned?"

Bad luck. Then if you loose job your Visa isn't valid any more. Than you need another Visa to search for job and you get max 6 months.

Studieren is verboten only if it is in pass written that you can not studieren. Otherwise you can do what you want as long as you take job if they offer it to you.
Some girls in AA will say that you can do only Promotion and Fernstudiengang but normal ones say that you can do anything as long as you are verfügbar.

but to do Master or Promotion you have to send your Diplom to Ministerium for Anerkennung. For Bachelor or Diplom you do not need anything.

"where I can do this Abendstudium?"

do a search in KURS:
http://www.arbeitsamt.de/kurs_en/kurs_en.html

@DvD

Thank you very much for your replies. I didnt know that in some visas it will be written that you cant do studium !! But its not so in my case. I just have the company´s name in it. Can I somehow ask them to change it? My visa runs till 2007.

Regards
Fred (wiesbaden)
fredjeffry hotmail com

Hi,

I did my studies when i did my GC. I came to germany as a student , i finished my first semester and then applied for a job, i was lucky to get a one year contract.Due to my family reasons and need of money, my university gave me just a status called 'Holiday Student' - Beurlaubt!!! I then finished my work but when i came back, the Auslandsamt cancelled my A-laubnis and changed in to A-bewelligung. It was my mistake as i didnt know that time that it is not necessary to chang permit. Interestingly, when i cam eback after a year, i got a visa for Wiss-Assitent as i was offered a job in the uni ( part time) and i was allowed also to finish my MSc. In my Visum, it was clearly mentioned that i was a student of MSc Mechatronics but allowed to work as a scentific assitant till my contract expires.


I think all GC's are allowed to study and you need no special permissions

Regards

Hi DvD,
Regarding,
"but to do Master or Promotion you have to send your Diplom to Ministerium for Anerkennung

I have a BSc. and willing to study MSc, can you please explain more where to send my certificate Anerkennung.
Any detailed information or links about this procedure, in English is better...

Thanks all in advance.

"I just have the company´s name in it. Can I somehow ask them to change it? My visa runs till 2007."

It is possible.
Actually I did it. Allthough I did not ask for anything. First some stupid girl gave me a Visum on Firma. After I moved to another Stadtteil, there in another Ausländeramt girl working there said to me that it is incorect and gave me new Visum without Firma.

Really lucky, DvD

Btw, can I assume that most of the GC´s are Indians? Or am I wrong?

And when you guys talk about BSc and MSc, do u mean the degrees as in India? Or the BS and MS as in USA?

I would be happy if you post your email address too under your signature.

Regards
Fred (Wiesbaden)
fredjeffry hotmail com

Hi,

Bsc. and MSc are the same with BS and MS. It is a fact that in Germany they use MSc instead of MS

Regards

Well, a lot of GC's are Indians but not all of them - if I remember correctly around 6000 are from India, the rest from East Europe, Russia etc. Not sure if persons from new EU countries can be called GC’s anymore because they can get Arbeitsberechtigun without any problems (if they worked for more than 12 months here that is).

"Really lucky, DvD"

where I come from people say that it is better to be born without the leg than without the luck

"if I remember correctly around 6000 are from India, the rest from East Europe, Russia etc" + 3 Africans, I hate to be 4gotten.

D.

Hi all

All the generalizations are bad, so the conclusion of "most of the GC are indians" is right and wrong at the same time.

As far as I can read in the study of Frau Schreyer, with data from 12/02, 20% of GC are indians, followed by Rumaniens 8%, third place Russians 7,2%.

Surely are fresher information about it, but maybe the percentages remains equal.

So, most of the GC are indians, but indians are only 20% of the total amount of GC.

Regards

YO

@YO, bies
Thanx for the clarifications.

@DvD:
"where I come from people say that ............"
wouldnt you like to share where you come from?

Regards
Fred
fredjeffry hotmail com

Hi all,

Just found some details on this Zu.Gesetz and wanted to ahre them with you. I took it from:http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0405.html
and the pdf is available under:
http://www.bmi.bund.de/Annex/de_25594/Einzelheiten_des_Zuwanderungsgesetzes.pdf





2. Arbeitsmigration

* Für Hochqualifizierte wird die Gewährung eines Daueraufenthalts von Anfang an vorgesehen, sie können sofort eine Niederlassungserlaubnis erhalten. Mit- oder nachziehende Familienangehörige sind zur Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit berechtigt.

* Förderung der Ansiedlung Selbständiger. Selbständige erhalten im Regelfall eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis bei einer Investition von mindestens 1 Mio. Euro und der Schaffung von mindestens 10 Arbeitsplätzen.

* Möglichkeit für Studenten nach erfolgreichem Studienabschluss zur Arbeitsplatzsuche für bis zu einem Jahr in Deutschland zu bleiben.

*Bisheriges doppeltes Genehmigungsverfahren (Arbeit/Aufenthalt) wird durch ein internes Zustimmungsverfahren ersetzt. Die Arbeitsgenehmigung wird in einem Akt mit der Aufenthaltserlaubnis von der Ausländerbehörde erteilt, sofern die Arbeitsverwaltung intern zugestimmt hat (one-stop-government).

*Beibehaltung des Anwerbestopps für Nicht- und Geringqualifizierte. Somit gibt es weiterhin eine Anwerbestoppausnahmeverordnung.

*Beibehaltung des Anwerbestopps auch für Qualifizierte mit Ausnahmeregelung: Erteilung einer Arbeitserlaubnis im begründeten Einzelfall, wenn öffentliches Interesse an Beschäftigung besteht.

*Für Staatsangehörige der Beitrittsstaaten Zugang zum Arbeitsmarkt bei qualifizierten Beschäftigungen (unter Beachtung des Vorrangprinzips, also nur soweit kein Deutscher oder Gleichberechtigte zur Verfügung stehen); Vorrang gegenüber Angehörigen aus Drittstaaten.





Now my question is:

Doesnt the first sentence "Für Hochqualifizierte wird die Gewährung eines Daueraufenthalts von Anfang an vorgesehen" indicate that all GC holders will get PR ? Or just a "Niederlassungserlaubnis " with which we can start some company here ???? ;-)

Btw, hope they dont refer to scientists and PhD´s alone when they refer to "highly quallified" people! Coz am none of them!

Regards,
Fred

Fred,
This has been discussed here over and over.. GCs are NOT Highly Qualified according to this law(Unless they have a salary more than 80K)

Take a look at this thread :
http://www.trust7.com/en/forums/integration/dear_colleagues_working_in_germany_as_it_green_card_specialists

and the link you have posted was even posted before in this thread just after the acceptance of the new immigration law. Just scroll up the page, you will see it.

Regards

Lacrima

"wouldnt you like to share where you come from?"

Croatia

"wouldnt you like to share where you come from?"

and you

"...GCs are NOT Highly Qualified according to this law(Unless they have a salary more than 80K)..."

This is not true at all!!! GCs are Highly Qualified. With Highly Qualified they mean that you have a University degree. If you look to the law where this term "Highly Qualified" is defined, you see that there is the word: OR . So a Highly Qualified is a scientist with a special technical knowledge OR someone with 80 k salary OR ... (3 criteria defined with OR)...
Also what is meant by Scientist in Germany is "Wissenschaflicher", and thus this mean some university graduate which could be scientist in differnet domains (Computer science, engineering, natural sciences...)...
I had this discussion with some German friends the other day, and this was the outcome.. If you have other comments, please add them.
zash

"I have a BSc. and willing to study MSc, can you please explain more where to send my certificate Anerkennung.
Any detailed information or links about this procedure, in English is better..."

http://www.mwf.nrw.de/Hochschulen_in_NRW/Internationales/AuslaendischeAbschluesse/index.html

you also need Deutsche Sprache Test
TestDAF or DSH

Hi all,
anyone has the link of the Immigration draft in German?? I want to make sure of some sepcific words how they are in the original german document..
thanks
zash

It is ok, I found the original german draft..
I am still waiting if anyone does not agree of what I wrote in this thread before... (about highly qualified)

Hi zash,

You are saying in your post:

"With Highly Qualified they mean that you have a University degree. If you look to the law where this term "Highly Qualified" is defined, you see that there is the word: OR . So a Highly Qualified is a scientist with a special technical knowledge OR someone with 80 k salary OR ... (3 criteria defined with OR)..."

I really wish that your interpretation of the law was correct but I am afraid it is not.. I dont think "Scientist with a technical knowledge" is just someone with a University degree. (If so, Germany is expecting huge wave of immigration after this law..)
I dont think a GC can also fit in this criteria (unless you are a famous computer scientist who publishes regularly papers in computer science magazines.. )

This is my understanding.. but maybe some native german speakers may also help us to understand if a normal GC can be considered as Highly Qualified with the wording of this new law.

Regards

Lacrima

Hi Lacrima,

You know why I still insist on what I said that a GC is a Highly qualified? If you go back to the launch of the GC system, you see that it was said that: This GC thing is meant to bring highly qualified foreigners to work in germany as IT specialists in the domain of comupter and communication industry.. and so on...
So from the begining, the GCs were defined to be Highly qualified foreigners... I tried to read early documentation on the net at the time of the launch of GC and mostly it was refered to as : Highly qualified.. So that's why I believe GC are highly qualified and it is exactly what is meant with : Scientists with special technical knowledge...

Hi Lacrima, it's me again ;o)

Please read the article of the link below.. this link is from the site of the German goverment (bundesregierung.de), so I think after reading this, you will be sure what I said that GC are indeed Hochqualifizierte... Please let me know your comments...

http://www.bundesregierung.de/en/Nachrichten-,417.499513/artikel/Green-Card-drei-Jahre-alt-Verl.htm

Zash

Zash,
Do you know why am I also insisting that my interpretation is correct
because the new law gives Highly Qualifed people PR from the very beginning
and if they give PR to every foreign science/engineering graduate from
the very beginning then this makes a huge number and I dont think CSU/CDU
(who played a key role in the preparation of this law) would allow smt
like this..
You are right, they called us as "Highly Qualified" at the beginning and
now they have unfortunately changed the definition of being "Highly Qualified"
with this law. That is the problem.

Regards

Lacrima

Please copy the whole line of the link and paste it in your browser.

I dont believe the changed the definition with the new law...This can't happen, believe me...
I think you misunderstood the point of PR from the beginning... By this point, they made it "possible" to give a PR from the beginning if the really need someone and WANT him to work here,, but this does not mean that GC are not highly qualified. SO the possiblity of PR from beginning is now possible, but this does not mean that if you have been working here for 5 years, then you are no more highly qualified.. (It is not logical)

Ok.. I have read that one.. it is a quite old document. I accept that we
were defined as "Highly Qualified" but I am still not convinced that this
new wording of the immigration law includes current GCs as highly qualified.

but I do want to believe you.. really.. :-)

Regards

PS: I think a GC with 5 years of working still can get a PR with this law but
a "fair deal" with the new law could have been, giving current GCs the PR immediately
but this is not the case now..

Lacrima

Lacrima, I see what you mean, you are right about the "fair deal" but sadly it is not so... Anyway the best is to wait until the new law is clear and translated by lawyers,, then we will see what is meant by every word

man, even a GC with 5 years work, he will get his PR after the 5 years ONLY if he has a job (maybe also permanent contract?), I am not sure of this but I am afraid it is like this. In my case, I am GC since 2001, so in may 2006, i will be here 5 years working. But exaclty on the same date, my contract finished with my GC. So do you think I will get the PR or should I have arranged a work contract by may 2006 so I can get the PR??? This is what still I can't understand....

You said:
"So do you think I will get the PR or should I have arranged a work contract by may 2006 so I can get the PR??? "

Zash, I really dont know the answer for this question.. you see.. new law didnt make the life actually easier for a GC. The situation just remained as it was..
By the way, Trusday was giving some hints how to do that after 5 years.. take a look other threads..

Regards

Lacrima

Hi zash and lacrima,

Thank you guys for giving valid points from both sides whether GC´s are Highly qualified or not!



@DvD

Am from India, working near Wiesbaden since 2002.

Regards
Fred (fredjeffry at hotmail dot com)

PS: why dont u guys introduce yourself? Or atleast add an email ID to your signature?? :-)

Hi all,
Regarding this issue I stand beside zash, cause in top of being deemed as "scientist with technical knowledge" you have to have a job here in order to be considered Highly Qualified and get the much needed PR. So dont expect big waves of emigrants cause they will juggle with their birocratic machine and regulate on a case-by-case basis who's higly enough to be given a PR (they could also consider a quota). However this machinery will move slower or faster dictated by economic reasons. So as far as GC I think the new law is not gonna change much cause it doesnt make any reference to it. So lets hope the economy will improve sooner and they will open up the valve a bit to speed up the AA monster.
Cheers

"The unemployment benefits you are getting is out of the unemployment insurance paid by the GC'S and others. After all insurance works that way. So don't bite the hand that feeds you. Should I say lol here ?"

you forget that i paid as well when i worked. otherwise it would not be possible for me to get an unemployment benefit. so your comment about GCs feeding me is not correct: it's insurance, you pay monthly to it while you work, insurance pays you when you lose your job. moreover, i will have to pay everything back after i win a legal dispute vs. my last employer and he pays me salary for all months of unemployment ;)

"do not be afraid if your visum is for 5 years and without name of the Firma. Then you got lucky and they can not do anithing to you. Unless you do some crime. They can send someone home only if he has Visum for only one firma or for shorter time."

that's why i have to be present in a court of law tomorrow (legal dispute vs. local immigration office), sure. and i am not afraid, just pointing out on some possibilities; by the way, local immigration office already threatened several times to revoke my residence permit, and local employment office informed me that it will decline my application on "Arbeitslosenhilfe" if i submit it.

"Because of that you did not find out that Promotion and Habilitation are allways for free."

nope, because i just do not have time for that unless i am freed from obligation to work. that's what i am trying to tell you - Studium for me is not allowed if it makes it impossible for me to work as an IT-professional.

"can you generally go to WC with your residence permit"

yes, because going to WC is necessary for ability to work

"Die Arbeitsgenehmigung wird in einem Akt mit der Aufenthaltserlaubnis von der Ausländerbehörde erteilt, sofern die Arbeitsverwaltung intern zugestimmt hat (one-stop-government)."

by the way this means that ALL residence permits for foreign employees will be bound to a company, that is expire ones a foreigner loses a job.

"...GCs are NOT Highly Qualified according to this law(Unless they have a salary more than 80K)..."
"This is not true at all!!! GCs are Highly Qualified. With Highly Qualified they mean that you have a University degree."

it will depend on VwV to the new law. therefore we have to wait when their final version appears ;)

Hi *

I guess we have to forget GC in the Wissenschaftler/in category. All the researchers/research related positions are allways clearly named and if you apply for one of this positions you have to have a special background and also all the scientific positions are named "Wissenschaftler Mittarbeiter or Wissenschaftler in...".

BUT I personally heard Minister Schilly saying "all the scientific, Engineers and proffesionals already in Germany have to be calm because this law will include them", after the compromiss with CDU/CDS in the press conference.

Maybe is a trick elsewhere in the text. I´m not a lawyer and don´t have the time to read leter by leter all the text but maybe when the whole text of the law will be ready we can try on our own or maybe hire a lawyer to study/find some convenient paragraph to all GC.

I guess by now the law give some points to the decision of the officials and this is not a good idea. I don´t think most of the Beamter can understantd what we make and absolutely no background to judge when a scientific is a normal researcher or a candidate to a Nobel prize.

I don´t understant completely the legal system in Germany, but in my country there is another trick polititians usualy do: after the law is ready, some regulations must be dictated about how to apply the law, because sometimes the laws are not so clear and need a kind of "manual".

Maybe we can find there the way to be included for all the poor GC earning less than 80K.

Regards

YO

Hello YO,
Thanks for your insights..

"BUT I personally heard Minister Schilly saying "all the scientific, Engineers and proffesionals already in Germany have to be calm because this law will include them", after the compromiss with CDU/CDS in the press conference."

I think this is a good sign what you are mentioning here.. I am also personally tired of speculating regarding the new law. Let's wait and see what happens..

Regards

Lacrima

"it will depend on VwV to the new law. therefore we have to wait when their final version appears
trusday"

"BUT I personally heard Minister Schilly saying "all the scientific, Engineers and proffesionals already in Germany have to be calm because this law will include them", after the compromiss with CDU/CDS in the press conference.
I don´t understant completely the legal system in Germany, but in my country there is another trick polititians usualy do: after the law is ready, some regulations must be dictated about how to apply the law, because sometimes the laws are not so clear and need a kind of "manual".
YO1"


true. it is same here.
manual is VwV which means Ver-waltungs-Vorschriften

VwV for ZuwG is not made because ZuwG is not yet accepted.
in short time, probably next month ZuwG will be accepted and then VwV will be written with all explanations.
it is also posible that GC want be mentioned in VwV but it is quite certain that there will be some document that will say if GCs are to be treated as HQs
I believe GCs will be regarded as HQs because this whole new gesetz is nothing more but an extension of GC Regelung to all jobs instead of only IT jobs.

Hi guys,

You are right.. we have to wait and see the final text of the new law coming out.. Be patient ;o)
By the way, most of my German colleagues have a good feeling regarding the new law for the case of GC...
Hope for the best, expect the worst!
zash

Hi All,

What do you think about hiring a lawyer together, who can interpret everything for us, and we can share the cost too.

"BUT I personally heard Minister Schilly saying "all the scientific, Engineers and proffesionals already in Germany have to be calm because this law will include them"

sure. i won the legal dispute vs. local immigration office, so their decision will be annulated; but in the same time a judge pointed out to defender of local immigration office that they can investigate a possibility of "Ausweisung" regarding me. now i have to write one more application and send it on Monday, just to exclude a possibility of the same procedure as it was done in case of Kaplan.

so accordingly to Schilly i need to be calm? sure, no man - no problem for him *lol*

"sure. i won the legal dispute vs. local immigration office, so their decision will be annulated;"

hi trusday
what did they acctualy do
did they shorten your visum allthough it was without firma name so that it should be valid even when you loose job,
meaning did they took your visum allthough it was perfectly valid

or did you had visum on firma

"hi trusday
what did they acctualy do
did they shorten your visum allthough it was without firma name so that it should be valid even when you loose job,
meaning did they took your visum allthough it was perfectly valid"

no they are making me problems because i do not have a passport, nor can i obtain one; and they do not want to give me a german passport, although have to do that by laws, german laws as well as international conventions. actually i lost my last job mainly because of them: firstly which employer wants to have a person, with whom an immigration office has non-ending problems? and secondly, employer understood the situation so that he can make additional money on me, hoping that immigration office kicks me out *lol*

they tried to demand from me to obtain a passport, regardless in which way, threatening to give me a fine if i do not obtain one. i proved that it is not possible for me to obtain a passport unless Germany gives me one; now i am sure that they will try to revoke my residence permit and deport me.


basically the whole situation can be viewed as a discrimination towards me from a side of Germany; probably i should start a corresponding PR-campaign. will see how the things proceed further ;)

Hi trusday!

Man, What a soul you are!! You seem to stick soo deep in trouble, but you are so cheerful and post happily! How is this possible with you? Are you a saint??

Regards
fredjeffry at hotmail dot com

Trusday, may I ask why u can not get a passport from your home country? If you really cant get one, they must give you a german passport or at least a PR here to stay...
All the best for you man

"Trusday, may I ask why u can not get a passport from your home country?"

firstly because i do not have any home country. i was born in one country (btw, Germany), lived then in other country and in Germany came from a third country which i do not want to see ever again *lol* and secondly because the embassy of that country (from which i came in Germany) has said that it cannot issue me any passport because it is not competent for that in my case. still that third country (embassies of which are not competent for issuing me a passport) automatically has given me their citizenship without my agreement and refuses to take it back. lot of fun, er? and germans of course do not want to spend their time and resources investigating all that, so they basically trying to find an easy way by kicking me out of here even if it breaks lots of international conventions that Germany signed.

lol so i basically have to be focused on study of laws and order of legal proceedings, not on work as IT-professional. not bad as well, as it probably will give me a possibility to change my profession

"they must give you a german passport or at least a PR here to stay..."

PR = german passport
status of stateless = german passport

of course it is not a passport of german citizen, rather a special passport for foreigners ;)

trusday how did you get GC without pass

i had a passport then but i lost it, because of wrongdoings of german officials that did not react on my letters during several months when i was in Mainz. i mean i lost my job then and did not have any income because i lost my job after working only 10 months, after that i sent letters to local Sozialamt, Arbeitsamt, Ausländeramt but there were no reaction; they even did not register me as an unemployed! ZAV did react, but after some time forgot about me, until i sent couple of letters to BMA.

lol i have all those papers; Mannheim did a lot of fun as well; for example they unregistered me from a flat without any application from me and did not correct it despite of several talks with them and several letters; they tried to say that i do not live in Mannheim and therefore they are not competent to process any applications which i may submit to them! lol but for correction of a data about me they were competent of course: they even corrected my religion in their database without any application from me

"i had a passport then but i lost it"

Cool.. then simply apply for a new passport from the country which this passport
that you have lost is originating.. If you are not doing this and trying to
claim to be stateless.. etc.. this means that you are starting to play some "games"
with the authorities.. and making yourself suspicious.. so they are reacting back
to your "games".. as simple as that..

I think you are trying to take smt which you didnt deserve.. (applying for the
passport of the country which you just happen to be, after losing your own passport..
I mean.. this is unacceptable.. come on.. be reasonable !)

Lacrima

Hi trusday, I must say that I must agree with lacrima.

Regards,
Fred

"then simply apply for a new passport from the country which this passport that you have lost is originating.."

i do not have to do that (i mean apply for national passport of that country), as i accepted their passport only because i had no other choice, as my life was dependent on it. still i can apply for a passport of stateless person from that country, but it refuses to issue me such passport, as it gave me its citizenship without my agreement and does not want to take it back. moreover, did you read what i wrote earlier? the embassies of that country say that they are not competent in my case and accept no applications from me - sure, they even say that i live in their country not in Germany - know why? they acquired slaves from foreigners by giving them citizenship without agreement and they do not want to lose those slaves *lol*

"If you are not doing this and trying to claim to be stateless.. etc.. this means that you are starting to play some "games" with the authorities.. and making yourself suspicious.. so they are reacting back to your "games".. as simple as that.."

yes, but authorities react not in the way presribed by their own laws and international conventions, that's a problem. they need to get an information from me, check it thoroughly and then issue a big bill to a party that is wrong, or put up with expenses themselves if they are wrong. but they unfortunately are not doing that, they basically are trying to put a stamp "guilty" on me without proving anything - thus giving me a possibility to say that Germany does not comply with basic human rights.

"I think you are trying to take smt which you didnt deserve.. (applying for the passport of the country which you just happen to be, after losing your own passport.."

yes i do deserve it, by convention about rights of stateless people. Germany signed that convention not i; therefore Germany has to accept all responsibilities arising from that convention.

"I mean.. this is unacceptable.. come on.. be reasonable !)"

yes, this is unacceptable. to make disorderly actions which resulted in loss in my passport and then require me to get a new one on my own expenses? this is unacceptable, for sure.

"as i accepted their passport only because i had no other choice"

You have accepted their passport and you have presented it to the authorties here as your passport.. so it is your passport.. try to look from the authorities perspective.. :-)

"yes i do deserve it, by convention about rights of stateless people."

No, you dont deserve it.. because you are not stateless.. you once presented a perfectly valid passport and now you have lost it.. that is it..

"to make disorderly actions which resulted in loss in my passport and then require me to get a new one on my own expenses"

You lost your passport.. not they.. you can not make the third parties liable because of your own fault.. Take a good care of your passport otherwise you can find yourself in a deep **** like this one..

Come on Trusday.. I was trusting your reasoning capabilities.. you are telling us only ******** here.. none of the above mentioned ******** can convince any authority.. I hope you are not gonna experience it bitterly that it will not convince anyone..
(If you dont want to go back to your home country and if you want to stay here for any price.. I can understand that (Although I personally wouldnt do such a thing)
I think you have also honestly said(confessed) it in another post.. but please dont blindly defend yourself with this nonsense.. that makes you more ridiculous.. )

Lacrima

"You have accepted their passport and you have presented it to the authorties here as your passport.. so it is your passport.. try to look from the authorities perspective.."

so what, i do not have it anymore. even if it is somehow found, i now have to submit it to the embassy of the country that issued me it, as i have started a legal dispute vs. them regarding my citizenship and therefore can no longer carry their national passport.

"No, you dont deserve it.. because you are not stateless.. you once presented a perfectly valid passport and now you have lost it.. that is it.."

yes i am. passport and citizenship are different things; passport is a document that states that some country recognizes me as their citizen, it tells nothing whether i agree with them or not. btw there are also passports for stateless people, so what? passport <> citizenship.

how could i present some other passport; i had no chance to obtain any once i was given citizenship without my agreement?

"You lost your passport.. not they.. you can not make the third parties liable because of your own fault.."

because of actions of third parties. i mean come on, imagine that police stops you on the street, gets your passport and does not give it back to you, then burns it, it will be your fault as well?

"If you dont want to go back to your home country and if you want to stay here for any price.."

i do not have any home country. didn't you read what i have written before? how can you say that some country is my home country, when i have come there only for purpose to study in Uni and then it gave me its citizenship without any application and agreement from my side? i am a foreigner there, in no time was accepted in their community, they always had problems with me ...

"but please dont blindly defend yourself with this nonsense.. that makes you more ridiculous.."

why it is nonsense? does the Turkey do the same with people? i guess i would then understand why it is still not accepted in EU *lol* ;)

You are not convincing me Trusday.. but it is ok.. I am not the judge here.. :-)

I clearly see your points.. someone who wrote this sentence

"i took part in GC only because i wanted to get out from the third country and never come back again"

can defend any ******** as a truth.. so I will not answer anymore to your ******** regarding this case..

Lacrima

normally yes, but majority of them lies, get caught and then is easily deported without damaging any human rights. the rest of them tell truth on the border or soon after, do not get chance to develop bindings in the country, do not get chance to learn laws and language and therefore get deported quickly and without problems. not to mention that loyalty to a "home" country ("home" = where foreigner applies for an entry visa <> home) normally is checked before an entry visa is issued; the ones who tell truth do not get an entry visa; the ones who lied get deported for that, even when they start telling truth later on. i mean it's a normal procedure - when the country signs a contract, it can withdraw from it when it finds that other party provided a false information upon a signature; it does not have to sign a contract as well only because someone wants to leave his "home" country.

but once the contract is signed it has to be followed! even if the party (in my case Germany) finds out later on that it has screwed up, just because did not see or did not investigate all possibilities in which a signed contract can be lawfully used. lol i am probably a very rare case in fact

so what are the chances now?
will you get german pass or will they find a legal way to kick you in the ass?
it looks to me that you will get pass.