I do not know how the others think, but observing the last years of life of the Pope it seemed to me as a punishment after a punishment after a punishment comes upon him, until he can not stand any more and falls broken ...

It’s not a widely discussed thing, but Pope had an enemy – one man who apparently had different views on a subject how the church should be run and was chased for those views ...

That man lives still, but the Pope has died. Amen.

Do you think that man was more conservative than pope or less?

It would help a lot if You named that man.


Anyway, it is not about life and death of one man.

It is all about the deeds and legacy of a person.

I will ask You in a year whose DEEDS survived longer.......

"Do you think that man was more conservative than pope or less?"

well much less of course

"I will ask You in a year whose DEEDS survived longer......."

it's not really difficult to see even now. so long as the church will change, the ideas of a dead man will be gone forever. after all what did he create that humanity did not know already?


and that the church will change, i really do not have any doubts. after all the man originally was elected only because of Sovjet Union, and it was far more important at that time to deal Sovjets a mighty blow than to think about conservatism of a person


as for a name - that man has already shown himself, even before i posted here in the forum

Well, I didn't have intention to extend this conversation for very long, but maybe I could post one-two replies....

As for the man's name, I am really ignorant of it. So please tell me.

As for the legacy, Pope's duty is not to create new technologies.

As an achievement, what do You say about PEACE. If he created a little bit more of peace in the world, he did lot more than many.

Turn on the Discovery channel, and You will learn a lot about Pope's backdoor diplomacy (Nicaragua, Chile, Cuba, Bosnia, Croatia etc. etc. )

And the church will change itself, sure, but he has already set the direction: Of 127 electoral cardinals, he appointed 122. He knew what he is doing......

"As an achievement, what do You say about PEACE. If he created a little bit more of peace in the world, he did lot more than many."
"Turn on the Discovery channel, and You will learn a lot about Pope's backdoor diplomacy"

well let's say we all can see what the results of backdoor diplomacy can be. thinking about it: if there were no backdoor diplomacy, probably the world would be much safer place?

you know if i were stupid enough and listened to everybody who wanted to HELP me i would very soon go without my last shirt. talking a lot about PEACE does not necesseraly means making PEACE. in fact, such talks sometimes can achieve just an opposite reaction

"And the church will change itself, sure, but he has already set the direction: Of 127 electoral cardinals, he appointed 122. He knew what he is doing......"

kind of. everything in this life has two ends and the people are blind. Blind while they see only one end and refuse to see the obvious other one, until it hits them of course - in the most unadequate moment, accordingly to Murphy's laws ...



heh thinking about blind people: some managed to achieve it that the church quit selling pieces of paper naming them "relief from sins". now they buy "cleansing services" and are really happy getting such kind of HELP

and of course some other blind people still believe that if they have organs then they are free from Jesus Christ Nr. 2


P.S. btw the Pope didn't manage to find who stood behind an assasination attempt vs. him, did he? ;) just thinking about "all understanding and everything knowing humans" ...

Well, the beginning of this thread sounded promissing, but it seems You can not offer any new and authentic argument to support Your previous words. So I will switch off myself.
Permanently or until I see something more reasonable.

Pope made a lot of bad publicity with his opinion about:
abortion,
wommens in church,
celibat,
birth control.

He was conservative regarding this points, but he mannaged to be maybe most popular person on planet. HOW?

Well I think it is because he does not care a shit about politics. Every good politician would have another opinion about those issues just because MAJORITY THINKS SO.

But pope does not want to change short politic success for ideas.
He could change his stand on those issues and he would gain a lot of popularity.

BUT INSTEAD he choses to make changes on completely another edge.

HE WAS THE FIRST POPE TO ADMIT CHURCH MISTAKES IN HISTORY. HE SPECIFICALY ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FOR DOING WRONG TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND ASPECCIALY TO WOMANS (WITCHES AND INQUISITION).

ALLTHOUGH THOSE ISSUES ARE TO OLD TO GET SOME POPULARITY ON IT, I THINK THOSE ISSUES ARE STILL MUCH MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THOSE STUPID STUPID STUPID QUESTIONS FROM TODAY.

AFTER ALL IT SHOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT IF SOME WOMEN ARE BURNED THAN IF SOME ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE PRIEST. AND THOSE NUMBERS OF WOMEN AND MEN THAT GOT EXECUTED GOES TO MORE MILIONS.

WITH ADMITTING MISTAKES THIS POPE DID MORE THAN ALL OTHERS TOGETHER AND IN MY EYES IT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THOSE DAYLY ISSUES.
BESIDE IT WAS NOT EASY TO DO IT BECAUSE HE HAD TO STAND AGAINST WHOLE CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT AND ON THE END HE GOT ALMOST NOTHING GOOD.
BUT HE DID NOT EXPECT ANYTHING ANYWAY.
ONLY THE JOY OF KNOWING THAT HE DID THE RIGHT THING.

DvD

I do agree, and I had intention to write something similar.

He was the Pope, and did not have to think of media, and public opinion polls. He was elected for a life term anyway. No one could get him out of the seat.


I would only give a little different opinion about the root of his intentions.

It is not only about knowing that you do good;

I believe he was a genuine believer, and he believed that God gave him a task to fulfill, and he did. With no hesitation, no reserves, and not expecting anything else but difficulties, danger, pain and suffer. True St. Peters successor.


So much about it.

"He was the Pope, and did not have to think of media, and public opinion polls. He was elected for a life term anyway. No one could get him out of the seat."

I remind you that his predecessor John Paul I was out of seat after only 30 days as a Pope.

@DvD

It's much much much easier to recognise mistakes of others than your own mistakes. and when it comes to mistakes made hundreads years ago, recognition of those does not cost even one cent, just because successors of those poor millions - even when some can be found - can not even theoretically have any documents that would prove their heritage. it may seem cynical, but it's a simple truth, and the Pope knew what he was doing.

As for standing against whole church - did you read the words of our guest that "of 127 electoral cardinals, he appointed 122"? he did not stand against the whole church, he dictated it.

Probably that identifies a true St. Peters successor, who betrayed Christi 3 times during one night but managed to organise the structure of command in the church - something that does not comply with Christi's ideas completely, just because it divides all christians in different groups with completely different rights - and therefore secure a continuous flow of money for his favorites by the cost of countless victims who did not gain anything but torture and death.


Do you really believe that Apostles followed Christi because they shared his ideas? :o

-:
"Do you really believe that Apostles followed Christi because they shared his ideas?"
I see you spoke with them on that subject so tell me from the first hand.

"I see you spoke with them on that subject so tell me from the first hand."

heh if you accept for truth everything that people tell you, i do not understand how you were able: 1) to come to Germany in the first place; 2) not to be pushed back to your home country until now; 3) have no problems with a job

i mean if those people told the truth nobody would ever follow them ... know what the best secrets are? ;)


Do not forget that those people were all Jews (excluding Christi), and that every nation has some characterictics which differ them from other nations ...

"i mean if those people told the truth nobody would ever follow them ... know what the best secrets are?"

no. what?



"Do not forget that those people were all Jews (excluding Christi), and that every nation has some characterictics which differ them from other nations ..."

Don't know why but I allways thougt Jesus was jew.
Now I see I know nothing.

And I never thought that nation describes somebody.

"of 127 electoral cardinals, he appointed 122"?


This doesnt essentially mean that there were only 5 Cardinals initially, and Pope John Paul II increased the number to 127. He was Pope for more than 25 years, and it is quite natural that many Cardinals died of age, and who else than him could appoint a Cardinal?

Please correct me if am wrong.

IMHO I am of the opinion that we dont take sensitive issues like Religion too far!

-Fred

"no. what?"

the ones that are told nobody ;)

"Now I see I know nothing."

As do i. but you would agree with me that Christi did not look like a Jew. and - think about it - why would anybody want to kill the child of a jewish carpenter so nasty that a price of a slaughter of thousands other children was acceptable to them? not to mention that the slaughter happened after some people - who came especially for that purpose - were able to establish the true identity of a bastard. "star" guided them, heh

"And I never thought that nation describes somebody."

not completely of course, as every one person is unique in some sense. although i guess we would not have word "nation" in our dictionaries if there were no different groups of people on the earth

"IMHO I am of the opinion that we dont take sensitive issues like Religion too far!"

lol i believe we are all intelligent people and are able to proceed with our discussions without getting emotional. after all we should not forget that the points of view in sensitive issues like Religion are not going to cost even one cent anybody who does not belong to a church

I was on a buisines trip for few days, and couldn't take part in the continuation of this thread right in time for replies, but now I'll arrearse;

In the beginning I didn't understand -'s questions and claims as of religious kind. The first posting was neutral, then it went political, but when "-" jumped to another topic, i understood that he just wants to be against anybodies other opinion. I wouldn't be surprised to see after few pages that he opposes his own claim prom few pposts before.

Let's stick to the initial questions: Was the Pope a great man, andhow long his legacy will have influence on the world (not only on the Catholic church).

We can discuss politics and philosophy of the religion(s), but let's not call Jesus Christ a bastard. After all, we are all god's children.

(By the way, no one knows how Jesus realy looked like, and all the pictures and frescos are wrong)


For the continuation, I'll ask "-" to SERIOUSLY elaborate his opinion on apostles.

"I wouldn't be surprised to see after few pages that he opposes his own claim prom few pposts before."

Well if you find some contradicting statements in my comments, you are welcomed to point out on them ;)

although i guess it would not be so easy as in case of some other people - the ones who never understood Christi and therefore made so many mistakes in the Bible

"Let's stick to the initial questions: Was the Pope a great man, andhow long his legacy will have influence on the world (not only on the Catholic church)."

1. sure he was a great man, it is proved by the simple fact that millions gathered to see his body. i did not question his greatness, just pointed out where his greatness really lies. Hitler was great man as well, now wasn't he?

2. how long his legacy will have influence on the world? i am sure he will be forgotten soon. After all, people's names are remembered through centuries only if their activities led to many-many opfers, deaths and a vast destruction. Correct me if i am wrong, but Christi's activities - although he stood up for PEACE - not only led to numerious opfers, but made the destruction of existing order inevitable as well. Did the activities of Pope result in many-many opfers, deaths and a vast destruction? even if so, nobody connects or will connect his name to it. Did the Pope make anything that would work without his influence after his death? Let's take our time and see that he did not.

"We can discuss politics and philosophy of the religion(s), but let's not call Jesus Christ a bastard."

Bastard is just a word, just like all other ones. Word can not be bad by itself, bad are the people who try to put the responsiblities for their sins on the shoulders of their children ;)

"(By the way, no one knows how Jesus realy looked like, and all the pictures and frescos are wrong)"

Sure. I would think he looked like the Emperor of Rome. Jewish women tend to be very nice-looking, especially when they are young

Guys,

http://www.n24.de/politik/ausland/?n2005040515491700002

Is this true above ? or is it normal that way ? Just curiousity...

"Is this true above ? or is it normal that way ? Just curiousity..."

I would think that the corpse of Pope decays although everything possible is done to avoid such a thing. Of course the church is not going to admit it, therefore improvisations ...

"For the continuation, I'll ask "-" to SERIOUSLY elaborate his opinion on apostles."

Prove me my wrongness please ;)

btw the church is not going to have so huge assemblage of people any more, at any given point of time. many millions of people, all over the world ...

Even in the Bible there is no claim that apostles believed Jesus fully.

Thomas didn't believe, Judas was right-wing extremist (we would call him terrorist nowadays), and betrayed Jesus because of unfullfilled expectations of a holly war against romans. St. Peter was opportunist, possibly interested in financial gain. But they all changed their mind afterwards, and understood Jesus's message after 40 days (quaresima). Only then they believed fully and went to spread the message.


Why Jesus should look as the emperor of rome?. Even being bastard of some roman soldier, doesn't mean that he should like like roman. And how does a roman look like? At the time 50% of roman population was dark, and even a good percentage originated from northern Africa. Septimius Sever was from Libya and had dark skin and naturally curly hair.

Maybe I was wrong with Septimius. It was more likely Caracalla. Came from some desert town in northern Lybia. And also 50% of senators in 200 AD were from n. Africa (Former Carthaga)

"Even in the Bible there is no claim that apostles believed Jesus fully."

sure, some people do need to use other's names when they can not achieve anything themselves St. Petrus wouldn't have a chance saying that he is a son of good himself, he had to be a humble follower Christi's, he wouldn't get any attention otherwise at all

"and betrayed Jesus because of unfullfilled expectations of a holly war against romans."

he betrayed Christi because he was most stupid of them, so that he couldn't even see why it is wrong to opfer a chicken that lays golden eggs. others were cleverer, therefore they punished him first and only then proceeded to bring PEACE to others

"Only then they believed fully and went to spread the message."

oh yeah, dead man coming back to life is no joke at all, considering that others saw the miracle as well

"Even being bastard of some roman soldier, doesn't mean that he should like like roman."

hmmm i wouldn't think so bad of jewish women ... when it was as you say Maria couldn't hope to save her child when thousands others died without any expectation ...

"At the time 50% of roman population was dark, and even a good percentage originated from northern Africa. Septimius Sever was from Libya and had dark skin and naturally curly hair."
"Maybe I was wrong with Septimius. It was more likely Caracalla. Came from some desert town in northern Lybia. And also 50% of senators in 200 AD were from n. Africa (Former Carthaga)"

Romans did understand political and social issues, and much better than any nation nowadays. it did not save them in the end, now did it?



Anyhow, the show is over. The church has buried their Pope and can only observe how his name will be used to amuse children - together with the characters like Batman & Co. - and think about a future ... many millions of people - the last chance of the church - were used in a wrong way.

Despite apparent agreement with my previous post your reply again does not bring any constructive new arguments, so I will conclude my contribution with this:

Story in the bible holds water, and I believe that historical events were just like described.

Was the story result of the divine intervention or just interaction of coincidencies is a matter of one's faith, and I will leave it to you to believe or not.

Since the Pope believed in that, his pontificate couldn't be any different that it really was.

Faith gave him credibility and made him a moral authority. Among people, that is in the end always rewarded.