Dear Memebers,

First of all I would like to acknowledge the efforts of this forum to guide foreign people on several important issues. Although this topic is discussed many times but there are still some open issues. I hope this discussion will help everyone to get guidence from experienced people on this forum.

Important questions:

1) Can anyone please comment on which is better the para 8 OR para 10 of citizenship.

2) Can someone please comment on the citizenship application point Nr. 9. Begründung des Einbürgerungsantrages (ist eigenhändig auszufüllen, bei Antrag nach § 10 nicht erforderlich)

3) My spouse has also successfully completed the Integration course but the only problem is that she is here only since roughly 2 years. Do you think that I should ask them about my wife or will it be too much to ask from a beamter ?

Lastly any general comment or suggestions/feedback on my personal case would be of great help !

1- Living in Bayern
2- Mechanical Engineer and Did my Masters from Germany
3- 7.5 years in Germany (March 2008 to April 2010 as student and May 2010 to present as work)
4- Permanent visa since February 2013 (niderlassungerlaubnis 18b).
5- Integrationskus certificate (B1 und LID certificate) + Einbürgurung Test


Thank you very much for your time !

Hallo,

Some others might give more detailed answer to your query.

From my point of view:

you have a job, PR and all that is reqd. to apply for a citizenship i.e B1+EB Test.

Go to einburgerungsamt and start the process and if they need anything else,they

will inform you. As said, you fulfill all requirements and are eligible to apply.

Goodluck
BR
Basbrem

Dear Basbrem,

Thank you very much for your kind reply. Although you have already share your opinion but still I would like to take advantage of your experience. can you please comment on the difference of para 8 and 10 ? and if you remember can you please guide me what to write in Point Nr. 9 of Einbürgurungantrag ?

If you can't comment then its fine. Thanks again for your time !

Hi,

No problem. I actually do not remember. If i find the application, surely vl post it here what is mentioned in my application.

May be you can think of:
you like working very much here
you are already integrated with work, learning german and with people
your family and yourself like it very much here and your study profile has
more applications here....something like that.....

BR
Basheer

Thank you very much Basheer bhai for your quick response ! Its really so nice of you I think I can make a statement around these lines.

Just one further questions.. in case if they start my process then do you think I can also apply for my spouse.. My spouse has also successfully completed the Integration course but the only problem is that she is here only since roughly 2 years. Do you think that I should ask them about my wife or will it be too much to ask from a beamter ?

Nothing is too much. Everything you ask is too less. So go ahead and ask, very important.

As some of the beamters are so nice and kind and say that they will also handle your spouse application

at the same time with your application. But i guess your wife has to wait for 2 to 3 years, i am not sure

though. check out and start the process accordingly.

Goodluck

Thank you Basheer sahib for your reply.

I went to the Einbürgurung office today. The lady told me that I might have to wait until 8 years time. I told her that I have an integration course certificate and a Masters degree from Germany. Even my class fellow with same background had successfully applied for Einbürgurung after 6 years in Hamburg. She said its Bayern.

According to her the law of 7 years (with Integration course) ends last year (really surprizing for me). She said that one need to attend 6 months course to use this law not just certificate. I told her that I didn't get direct certificate infact I registered with BAMF and then I had taken Einstufungstest after that they said that I don't need to attend the classes and I can appear in Exam and then I got these certificates.

She said that I can visit her office again in 2nd week of August until then she will check the recent laws with Bundesamt.

Can anyone comment on this situation. Which things can have positive impact on my case ? or you think that she will refuse in the 2nd week of August because of same aurguments ? I know in Bayern they are very strict but still I was not expecting this.. because instead of going there after 6 years I waited almost 7.5 years and I have job contract as well.

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated !

Thanks in Advance

Have you filled an application form and passed it to the official?

The official has seen your insistence and she will definitely check the laws and return you. If she says it is not possible then I don't think she will refuse because your application has not been started to process. Application process takes usually months. So she can advise you for 8 years.

By the way, you said you are living 7.5 years. Why not just wait 6 months and apply in the very first day after 8 years? If you don't have big hurry of course. That is the safest mode and you can save a lot of stress..

Please be aware that no matter how you apply. Citizenship process takes at least around 6 months. Try to have a job. Joblessness causes process on hold until you find another job etc.

No worries, everything will be fine! Keep calm! Next time when you speak to her, be calm and polite. I'm sure you are but just in case. Politeness opens a lot of doors.

It is very sad and unfortunate to hear different cases as per the region. The good thing is you will be completing 8 years very soon. So no worries, let her check the rules and give you the information in second week of august. Accordingly follow the process. There is no way we can negate to what they say. Just have patience and follow the steps that beamter asks you to do. Thats the best.

Goodlulck
Basbrem

Thank you very much for your reply.
No she didn't asked for my application. She just said to wait until August and then she will have a clear view about Integrationskurs Zertifikat.

Off course the whole discusison was in a very pleasant environment and I was not negating her statements infact I just politely explained my version and that might be a reason that instead of clearly saying NO she said that she will collect all information until August.

Thanks !

Thank you !

Actually the only thing which was not clear to me was that she said that 7 years ended last year.
Anyway as you said I will wait for the next meeting.
Hopefully there will be a positiv reply from her in 2nd week of August.

I will tell my crazy experience. I have been living in Germany since 9.5 years and got NE two months back. My wife will complete 10 years by next month. Currently we are living in Bavaria. We had a baby on July 1st this year. We are trying to apply for German passport for the baby. Our case manager tells that neither the baby nor we are eligble for the citizenship.

The reason:

I was a PhD student untill 2012 and so is my wife till 2009. Acrroding to him the student period doesn't count. So if we want to get citizenship we need to complete 8 years as an employee and the same rule applies for the baby. We are kind of shocked. I thought 8 years of legal residence is enough to apply for Citizenship.

I am wondering about what to do now? Any suggestions will be highly appreiciated.

Well I don't know your details but in general it depends on your visa status.. if you were on visa 18 during your PhD then you can claim your time to be calculated since you have paid the rente and other things.. But if you were on student visa 16 in all these years then I am afraid that it is very difficult in Bayern to claim that time. Although general requirement is 8 years of legel stay but it all depends on the officer in your area and his assessment !!

Even though I paid rentenversicherung they gave me visa 16 during my PhD period. But as you said it all depends on the officer. Because I shouldn't have got NE according to the rules but my visa manager was kind enough. Seems like there is nothing much I can do.

Devbio, If possible move to some other German province.
If its not possible just make anmedulng in any other state with some friend by using his house address.Your kid will  get german pass if one of the parents were having PR at time of baby birth otherwise baby application is submitted with parents independent of 8 years rule. If you have job contract now, You will get the German citizenship in other province.

Thank you tauseef. Interesting suggestion. I can't move to other province at the moment but I have a friend in Freiburg. I can take his help. But don't we need a house contract in the new place? And also what if they ask why are you moving this far with your job in other state?

Normally they dont ask for house contratc but if they do, you may get one nachmiete contract from your friend.
No one can ask you why you are moving here, its your own choice where to live but dont forget to make that as hauptsitz and keep one in your current city as second residence. In Bayern you will suffer.... just give it a try. One of my friend did it successfully by having anmeldilung in RLP.
Best of luck.

Normally they dont ask for house contract.... just give it a try, One of my friend did it successfully by having anmeldilung in RLP...

These are just some vague assumptions.

Just check the documents need for Einbürgerung. First and formost requirement is to have enough living space for you and your family and to prove it you need to provide an house rental contract or a sale deed.

If some friend did it in RLP, doent mean that it also works for you. What happens if you shift to RLP and the officer there also shows the same rule. If you do a neben anmeldung in Bayern then you are subjected to "Zweite Wohnungssteuer" and should show a strong reason to the officer at the Einbürgerungsbehörde in RLP, why you a Haptanmeldung in RLP with a job and family in Bayern.


In general, people and the universities/research institutes misuse the student visa for PhD i.e rule 16 instead of 18 mainly for the following reasons

• No need to pay rentenversicherung on rule 16
• Cheap health insurance for the entire family
• Importantly cheap public transport for the eintre semester.

So in Bayern there are no free lunches. If some one has enjoyed the benefits of rule 16, he has to bear the consequence of the student time not counted for Enbürgerung.

"In general, people and the universities/research institutes misuse the student visa for PhD i.e rule 16 instead of 18 mainly for the following reasons

• No need to pay rentenversicherung on rule 16
• Cheap health insurance for the entire family
• Importantly cheap public transport for the eintre semester.

So in Bayern there are no free lunches. If some one has enjoyed the benefits of rule 16, he has to bear the consequence of the student time not counted for Enbürgerung."

Thanks for cautioning. But the thing is I payed rentenversicherung and other things because I had TV-L13/2 contract during my PhD. No cheap public transport, no student hostel and no cheap food (student price in mensa) as we come under employees in those cases. Only when it comes to selective cases (like getting citizenship, NE) they realize we were students at that time.

Weirdly, everything depends on your case manager in Germany. Because when I applied for NE one year back I was denied because of the student issue. Then few months back my case manager has changed. The new one just asked for rente (which I was paying from the begining for 8 years) along with other required documents and she granted NE. Seems like with Einbürgerung I am in bad luck.

I could be wrong but isn't free movement a right in Germany. I could be commuting to work everyday for all they care. I would like to know your opinion about this. I just want to make it clear that my main priority is to get German passport for the kid first, if there is a way.

My friend in Freiburg has almost same career path like me. He moved there from Munich two years back. He had a baby in may and he got German passport. Obviously, there they considered student time valid that's why I want to try this option.

Dear Coolguy,
My PhD was on stipend, para 16, no rente no tax nothing, enjoyed all facilities like transport, housing, health insurance etc etc, was that illlegal, no way. After 2years of posdoc, total 6years of living in germany, no Permanant residence, applied for citizenship and they accepted it even without B1 language, was that illelega. Bayern has totally different rules compared to all other German states, so If you want to be pissed enjoying living in Bayern after having long student period.........come on man, try to give some solution to some one, if have no solution dont misguide them.....

I am not misguiding anybody. What I am saying is stay away from vague advices
"one of my friend got in RLP"
"they generally don't ask for house contract"
let the OP say the same thing to the case officer and see the officers reaction.


It's better the OP consult a specialized lawyer regarding the student time counted towards Einbürgerung.

There are many forums in German language where the immigration lawyers have themselves accepted that it is different for every State and in Bayern the student time is not counted. punkt!!!

@OP:
Everybody has right to free movement. At the same time the case officer has also right to verify whether you are using any loophole to milk the system and can ask the reason for applying in that particualt city without any bonds to that place.

Just read the case history why the tax  "Zweite Wohnungssteuer" was introduced in Germany. As everyone (mostly Germans) started misusing the "Haupt anmeldung" and "neben anmeldung" this tax as introduced.
If you register in Bayern as "Neben anmeldung" be prepared to shell out 10% of your kaltmiete as a tax.

If you have paid the Rente during your PhD, why didn't you change your visa to Para 18? Were you not informed about this earlier.

I am not criticizing  anybody here. Just giving the facts that don't go by some vague suggestions "one of my friend got", "generally they don't ask house/job contract"

Is personal experience and friends experience is a vague suggestions??
No one can ask why you are moving here, I have right to live any where in Germany.....
My job is in BW but I live in RLP, one other friend is living in BW but work in Hessen, no one has ever asked why you are not living in city of your work. Now you will say its vague suggestion.
He is not going to milk the system, his kid has right to get German pass in Whole Germany except Bayern, so why he should not claim his right?? Every body can decide whats benificial for them and einburgürng behordae is much friendly than Auslander one.
I am 99.99% sure his case will be approved with out any difficulty. If tax is introduced for nebenanmeldung he can abort that idea, even if he adopt, it would be less than lawyer fee.
Conclusion; I dont share vague info, its totally lawful.

I don't mind shelling out kaltmiete tax.

When I started my PhD integration was the last thing in my mind and obviously I don't ave any guidance in this matter. To be frank I never cared about NE and citizenship earlier. But when you have a kid it changes everything. Eve now, my main priority is to get it for him. I will give a shot at tauseef's idea.

Any suggestions in this matter are welcome. There is no point in arguing what I could have done right in the past. I am already having trouble to find a friend for nachmiete. Everybody is backing up in the time of crisis.