Has some one asked already in Ausländeramt about the new law(after 1st of January)? I would be very interested to hear what the burocrats from Bayern have to say about the new law. Do you have plans to go and ask?

Nice Photo D!!

Yes I did, to our common friends.

They said me "Wir wissen noch nichts" answering my question of "What will happen to us GC in the future with the new law?". This was on 20th december.

Now you will see a post in a A4 paper on the door office saying "due to new law, no tramit will be processed unless a passphoto is bringed!"

Regards

YO

I've been in the local Ausländeramt yesterday and it seems that they still don't have any clue about the new law (they just know that there is one and that's it). I have expected at least that they've received some internal faq about the most frequent questions. Maybe they did, but nobody read it.

I wanted to check some of the usual stuff we've discussed here, but poor Beamterin was looking at me like I was asking how the warp drive on the USS Enterprise works. For example, I wanted to check the procedure about job suche visum (for just in case), whether it's issued for 3 or 6 months and such things about ALG in the case I'm out of the work; and she took my passport, looked down on my AE (with bolded "erlischt mit" section) and said that I don't need job suche visum in that case - I can freely look for a new job while my current AE is valid (i.e. until the imprinted date of expiration). WTF?!?

Does it really seem that nothing will be possible without a lawyer?

BTW, I've tried to check with some other beamter, but they wouldn't see me - they have organized themselves: if you have a certain nationality, then you're assigned to a specific beamter and that's it.

Hi glide,

I had a very similar experience like you, going to the ausländeramt and trying to get answers for some possible questions. I didn't get any solid answer for any of my questions although some of them were straight forward ones.
I agree with you that probably most of them don't have a clear view of the detailed contents of the new law. I think their responses will be different in case you ask specifically for doing something. I personally asked on the 3rd of Jan on how can I change job, in fact it was not just a question but that's what I want to do. The beamter then gave me a speific form for that special case and asked me to get filled by me and my new company. Few days later I submitted the form, the beamter said that it might take up to 4 weeks, she was clear that the procedure according to the new law is new to her and I am the first to ask in the local office in 2005.

I think it will be like any of us starting to use a modified/upgraded version of any existing system, even after getting a training one can not give definitive answers regarding the different new features before starting to use the upgraded system "learning by doing"

W.

Hi, some info

I visited today ABH (in ffm) because I've just got new job. Person there seemed to be informed
at least about procedure I need, he even filled out document by himself (on PC - took 15 min),
print it out and gave it to me to bring it to AA, to get Zustimmung from AA and then bring that back to him. Then I will get new Aufenthaltserlaubnis with company name and job title on it.
I asked him aren't restrictions now stronger than before (till now there was no company name in pass) and he said that since there will be no more Arbeitserlaubnis as separate document, data that was written on it will be now written on Aufethaltserlaubnis. I don't like it, but ok.
In case of future changing of employer - same procedure. I was to afraid to ask what if staying jobless...

This guy said that with some luck I should get Zustimmung in AA today or latest tomorrow, because it should be probably only formality.
BUT - it did not happened that way. Lady in AA says that my application has to go to Arbeitsmarkt check, because Übergangsregelung is not appliable in the case of changing employer.

I don't get it....if I am not changing a job - what for do I need "Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung".
When I need Zustimmung - Übergangsregelung (meaning no Arbeitsmarkt check) cannot be applied.
When I do not change Employer (do not need Zustimmung) - Übergangsregelung will be applied.

a to si opet ti
You are right.
what they do is completly wrong.
first of all this bulls..t that AMCheck can not be skiped if someone changes employer is crazy. Take a closer look what does it means.
They think that law says that when you want to continue work in same company, only than you can skip AMC.
I think it is more than clear that you need no AMC if you continue your work in on firma.
With this rule they meant exactly if someone changes job he does not need AMC

Down is explanation of §46 BeschV.
I think it is clear what they say.
Most important is:
"wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch"
and :
"die dauernde Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt"

SO THEY ARE WRONG.
And what is worse, situation in IT is so bad that you have no chances to go through this AMC if they intend to do it. They will allways found 100 germans for the position.





Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen
Zu Absatz 1:
Die Vorschrift regelt die Weitergeltung von Zusicherungen der Erteilung einer Arbeitsgenehmigung,
die noch auf der Grundlage des geltenden Arbeitsgenehmigungsrechts, wie z. B. den
ausländischen IT-Fachkräften nach § 7 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch
qualifizierte ausländische Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie (ITArGV)
oder den Saisonkräften, für eine erst im Jahr 2005 beginnende Beschäftigung gegeben
worden sind. Die Vorschrift ist notwendig, weil § 103 AufenthG nur für erteilte Arbeitserlaubnisse
eine Fortgeltung als Zustimmung vorsieht.
Zu Absatz 2:
Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis
aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch - die dauernde
Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet.

I think the latest updates on immigration will be available after all GC's are expired .. LOL

I wait for one perfect man's word in this forum and he did not deliver a word lately on this new law then I assume nothing new has happened. Detlef is not seen around the corner and I wait for his updates.

The ones who speak german can check the
http://www.xonder.at/cgi-bin/yabbserver/foren/F_0134/YaBB.cgi?board=arbeit;action=display;num=1105439604;start=

"Mick" (apparently not very in fond of DvD :-) ) thinks that work permit is also valid unlimited for any IT employement. I didn't bother to read everything but apparently there is also some internal regulation of AB which says that GCs should be handled in this way.

He also gave some references which could be hopefully used to change GC to new company without checking in the Arbeitsamt.

There is a rule (through law and court orders) that regulates even if Arbeitszeugnis could be folded or not. And in the same time and the same country there is a law that handles destinies of real people and their families and nobody (of those people assigned to work on it - Beamters) does not know what to do and how to handle it (except wrong)? They should have been prepared for the first working day after 01.01. - it's been practically two weeks since the launch date and still nothing? In the real company you'd get penalties for something like that.

Could we send TÜV, guys from Stiftung Warentest or somebody like that to test their performance? Maybe even to see which city/region is the Testzieger?
Sorry, but my built-in Balkan sense for sarcasm and subtle irony is being triggered with this sort of things. It pisses me off slowly (pardon my French) and although I have some job offers I think I'm going to look somewhere else. Almost five years invested in nothing...

So glide you are going to glide somewhere else.
Beamters had only to deal with poor ignorant people who just accepted that Beamter can do what he wishes.
With GClers it is different. They are not prepared for such a smart Ausländers.
Someone else said this allready here in forum.

Exactly - it would've been faster and simplier procedure if we came here to be taxi drivers or street cleaners. No pun intended for those people and their way of earning money, but there is just some difference in readiness to be parked here and there by Beamter's shaky interpretation of the law. Some of them may be mean, some may be nice but not up to date with current stuff - and some may be terrific people. But I just don't want to talk to some fortune-teller prior to any visit to ABH/AA. If the law says there shouldn't be Arbeitsmarkprüfung by job change with 3+ years of work - that's it. If the law says it should be used - so be it. But make up your mind, state it clear and apply it to all cases. (polako mi je vec pun...)

So, has anyone heard an official interpretation from a qualified person (lawyer would be perfect) whether we need Arbeitsmarktprüfung with 3+ working years for switching to another employer or not? Especially if we don't have any company name stated in our AE?

"Mick" from info4alien.de is official and qualified person. As far as I can remember he is the boss in some ausländerbehörde. So he knows.

Hi :-)

some of you may not know it but almost all the laws in germany are not clear, there is this "ermaessungsache" which gives the stupid Beamter the power to intrepret it the way he wants. And of course it all also depends on which state you live in. I think the most independent thinking state is of course Bayern, sometimes I think I live in a different country and they are not foreigner friendly, to say it politely. Bayern had never Green Card, theirs is Blue Card , LOL... funny and sad. The other thing is that all lawyers are paid the same here, so there also little incentive to be good and almost no chance to sue ABH for damages or to get the stupid Beamter in trouble, his job is for life, he can do what he wants. Well i am going to stop here, you get the idea.

Gruss

true my friend Mick is expert.
Btw it is not because of 3 years that GC needs no AMP but because of BeschV § 46 - Übergangsregelungen.

About Ermessen,
some things are on Beamter to decide but this AMP is not such a case.

DvD, where can I find he document from which you provided the following extract:

Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen
Zu Absatz 1:
Die Vorschrift regelt die Weitergeltung von Zusicherungen der Erteilung einer Arbeitsgenehmigung, .....

Unfortunately I think that also in this case this story will have to come to BMI, and then they will send (again) some letter "yes, it is really ment that GCs can stay here and work".

The good address to complain could be for example:

Bundes Innenministerium

Telefon: +49-(0)1888-681-0
Telefax: +49-(0)1888-681-2926
E-Mail: poststelle@bmi.bund.de

Or you can try directly:
MinDir Dr. Gerold Lehnguth
Abteilungsleiter M

(Migration; Integration;Flüchtlinge;
Europäische Harmonisierung)

Alt-Moabit 101 D, 10559 Berlin
Tel. +49 (0)1888 681-2171
Fax. +49 (0)1888 681-52171
Email: m@bmi.bund.de

This person signed the document "Umsetzung des Zuwanderungsgesetzes Vorläufige Anwendungshinweise", so he should know what is meant under

Page 173 / Page 174

42.1.3.3.1

Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.


You can find more contacts with www.bmi.bund.de

here is some similar discussion and few links from bundesrat where BeschV is cleared:


http://www.xonder.at/cgi-bin/yabbserver/foren/F_0134/YaBB.cgi?board=arbeit;action=display;num=1103832614

http://www.dgb.de/themen/migration/dokumente/beschaeftigungsverordnung.pdf

http://www3.bundesrat.de/coremedia/generator/Inhalt/Drucksachen/2004/0727_2D04,property=Dokument.pdf

@DvD
evo - opet ja

Short update about Arbeitsmarkt check for GCs:
Lady in AA ffm insisted today on next points:
if 3+ years working (with Arbeitserlaubnis and Sozialversicherungpflicht Beschäftigung) OR 4+ years Aufenthalterlaubnis - NO Arbeitsmarkt check,
if not - Arbeitsmarkt check.
According to her explanation §46 BeschV cannot be applied in the case of changing job and "Die dauernde Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt" means only no time restriction for ArbErlaubnis as we had it till now (5 years - 1 day).
Today I got Zustimmung for Job_X in ffm, at Company_Name for next 3 years. In my case, my GC should expire in august 2006 and Zustimmung is untill 17.01.2008.
Do I have to mention that 2 persons in AA (1 responsible for Arbeitserlaubnis, another for Arbeitsmarkt check (Vermittler)), after forcing them to meet eachother, discussed good 15 min about who should do what, how and why.
I seemed to be first case this year. After me came another lady with same story - she did not have to run around like crazy like me - now they have "procedure" trained on me.
I asked at the end, what should I do if my company wants me to move to another subsidiary in DE to do the same job, or what in the case that I get another job position in the same company.
Answer was not completely clear, but definitely in direction of going again to AA and asking for new Arbeitserlaubnis!
Now, after this experience I understand even less than before... I'm asking myself who is here crazy one?

It will be interesting to see what will happen tomorrow at ABH and which restrictions I will get in my new Aufenthalterlaubnis.

These people just cannot comprehend that something can change. One friend of mine got one of the first green cards (in 2000), and they gave him AE only for 2 years, although contract was for 5 years. At the time he did not complain, but then he saw some other people, in AB 10 km away have got full 5 years. Then he goes back to his AA and complains. Finally they have corrected it, but the explanation why they gave him only 2 years before was interessting: "We did it always so before". (???) So in your case, "before" they have sent us always to AA to change the work permit, so the same reflex continues. So it means that AB is not able to read your employement contract and establish that your salary is > 39000 euro && you are working as IT ?

Hi opet_ja

I was a little bit concerned in some part of your message:

"Today I got Zustimmung for Job_X in ffm, at Company_Name for next 3 years. In my case, my GC should expire in august 2006 and Zustimmung is untill 17.01.2008."

What does it means? AA consider that a profession XXXXX can be needed till 2008. OK. But after 17.01.2008? What does it mean? You will have to ask for another Zustimmung (yes only if you change job??) and they will check again and if there are enought XXXXX you won´t receive Zustimmung anymore?

I see another possible case here of "The_opinion_of_Beamte_is_more_valid_than_the_law". The BeschV is clear. Our experts DvD and Lacrima have pointed that. Also the friend Mike from info4alien think so but as in former years, the reality is different.

In my country exist a popular proverb: "You are right but you go to jail!"

By the way, I also received first two years of my 5 GC years, my contract have no time limit. I was asking why for two years. I managed to convince the Beamter to give me the rest three years of my GC "but only if the reference letter from your employer was good enought" told me the man.

Finally, I cannot understand why all is always so related to the willingness from the Beamter. I will have to vote the opinion over the laws here with the good old JJ.

Regards

YO

Wait a minute, about what kind of "Zustimmung" you are talking about ? Is it the "Zustimmung" from the Arbeitsamt ? This could be bad f you have got new Zustimmung in 2005 because, only Arbeitserlaubnis issued before 1.1.05 for the GC is considered as unlimited. Now you could have again limited Zustimmug ?????

cedo that does not matter.
even if you take it that way he still has his old ArbErl which is allways usefull as a unlimited Zustimmung.

BTW

@opet ti
Why did they send you to AA anyway?
They should do it align. ABH should contact AA for JMC-AMP (which should not exist in our case) and then do what AA says.

This was allways repeated as a EIN BEHÖRDENGANG.

I have no idea why I got Zustimmung FOR company_X, IN ffm, FOR job_position. I asked:
1. what if, e.g. I have to go to another location but staying in the same company and doing the same job?
Answer: "go to AA in new_location and ask"!
2. what if I get promoted and get another IT-job in the same company in the same location?
Answer: "Come here and ask")
Somewhere between these two questions she told me to get Niderlassungserlaubnis when my 5 years expires, which is in my case before these new 3 years expires.

@DvD
they sent me to AA because usual way takes some time and I needed everything to be ready till today because my contract start on Monday