Hi Trust7 community,

As most of you know, in Germany it is possible for a foreigner to get an unlimited permit for high-skilled qualifications (Niederlassungserlaubnis für Hochqualifizierte, §19 AufenthG : http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#19 ). I am one of the few people who is driving this subject in Trust7 (proof: http://www.trust7.com/en/foren/integration/ne_for_highly_skilled_anual_salary_63000_euro ). I have made a lot research on this research, helped here and personal life a lot of people, which I want to share it with you.

Despite the Arbeitsmigrationssteuerungsgesetz (the law which reduced minimum salary requirement from 84K to 63K in 2009, the main topic of this thread), in whole Germany only 169 foreigners have received NE $19 AufenthG in 2009:
http://www.migration-online.de/beitrag._aWQ9NzQxMg_.html . I am one of these 169 people and had helped about 10 people here at Trust7 to get this permit. In 2008 only 151 foreigners got that. That means the law change did not "relax" the conditions. One of the main reasons was that there was a global crisis in 2008-2009 and a lot of foreigners have lost their job before they could get this permit. If you lose your job, you cannot apply for this permit.

The minimum salary is 66K for 2011:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beitragsbemessungsgrenze

It is much difficult to get this permit in the states other than Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg because most IT/engineering sector are located in these states, and high-skilled foreigners are mostly in these states, too. I am in Hamburg and it was for me very difficult to get this permit. I had to talk with 4 officials, 2 managers and full process took 2 months. Officials in such states are not familiar with high-skilled migrants and they need more time to "understand" to process.

I will summarize The advantages of this permit:

1. People having this permit is ranked in a high priority for Arbeitsmarktprüfung (work labour market check), for the case if he or she loses her job and is registered in Arbeitsamt:
http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/zentraler-Content/A01-Allgemein-Info/A015-Oeffentlichkeitsarbeit/Publikation/pdf/DA-Aufenthaltsgesetz.pdf#page=45

2. If the person gets married with a non-EU citizen, then requirements that the spouse must be older than 18 years old and should speak German are not needed:
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#30

For example, as a man, if I want to marry a woman, say, from Argentina, who is 17 and cannot speak German, then shen get a residence permit immediately to come to me, because of my unlimited permit for high-skilled migrants.

3. This permit does not need an approval from Arbeitsamt:
http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/zentraler-Content/A01-Allgemein-Info/A015-Oeffentlichkeitsarbeit/Publikation/pdf/DA-Aufenthaltsgesetz.pdf#page=51

I wish everyone success and patience to get this permit.
Klenze17.

Hi Klenze17,

I amongst one of these people who had the §19 Niederlassungserlaubnis. I just got my citizenship some days back.

I would like to correct something - its not that only 169 people got it in whole of Germany but rather 311 in total (researchers and specialists) IMMIGRATED TO GERMANY under this law. This is exactly what the link you sent says.

So people like you and me who have been living in Germany and changed to this rule are not part of this number.

Just to give you a number, in 2008 this number was about 150 (compared to 311) in 2009. So the number has actually doubled.

---------------------

One thing I would also like to clarify. Your spouse doesnt need the German language A1 ONLY if you were married your spouse as you came to Germany and got the Niederlassungserlaubnis. So for example a person like you who changed his normal AE/BE to this § 19 NE is not eligible to use this relaxation.

I am 100% sure about it because this was the case of a friend of mine. I can search it out sometime when I have time.

Dear Kenze17,

I'd like to thank you for the information you submitted probably 2 or 3 years ago. I can remember how you followed the reduction of the lowest salary limit from 85k to 63k or so. Though at the time I read your thread for the first time, I already knew about the law and was already planning to apply for NE §19, I found it very assuring, that someone had a similar case and already received NE using the same arguments I intended to use for my application.

I may also add that the wife and children get permission to work "Erwerbtätigkeit gestattet". Please correct me if I was wrong.

@supersid, If I may ask you, did the NE19 play a role in your application for citizenship? thanks.

In general it does help if you show you are highly qualified

In my particular case I applied for discretionary (§8 before 8 years) citizenship and here it definitely helpful.

Question: who decides if I am high-skilled? is a) company where I work? / b) the yearly salary c) Other?. I completed 5 years living in Germany with an Aufenhalterlaubnis and I wanted to get the Niederlassungserlaubnis. I went to the KVR and the guy told me you I had everything for the Nieder.. except that my german level is only 2A and I need to have B1, so he sent me to an integration curse (???). My current yearly salary is +67k. Your orientation is highly appreciated!

The company writes a short letter summarizing your job + your special skills + your degrees and how valuable you are

+

Your salary needs to be above 66K. You need to take a filled out Arbeitgeberbescheinigung for proving this. Now some Ausländerbehörde staff count your bonus but the others count only the amount of money which is 100% sure for example - salary + Weihnachtsgeld will be counted but performance oriented bonus wont be counted.

In your case I see only the advantage (or disadvantage) that you would save on efforts to learn the language if you take Niederlassungserlaubnis for Hochqualifiziert. In general language helps + if you take the normal NE, you are also eligible for Daueraufenthaltserlaubnis EG which has more rights.

So you need to try your luck.

superid wrote on 21/11/2010 2:33 pm

I would like to correct something - its not that only 169 people got it in whole of Germany but rather 311 in total (researchers and specialists) IMMIGRATED TO GERMANY under this law. This is exactly what the link you sent says.

So people like you and me who have been living in Germany and changed to this rule are not part of this number.

Just to give you a number, in 2008 this number was about 150 (compared to 311) in 2009. So the number has actually doubled.

No. As I wrote in my first post, I am talking only about §19 AufenthG. Please note that the subject of this thread is Unlimited Permit for High Skilled Migrants, §19 AufenthG: Observations. Before you registered at Trust7 on 26/07/2010, we had discussed since 2005 most of the time about §19 AufenthG here. What I refer is only this law and the related discussion ( http://www.trust7.com/en/foren/integration/ne_for_highly_skilled_anual_salary_63000_euro ) and the number 169 does refer to this law. For proof I copy-paste the link from first post again ( http://www.migration-online.de/beitrag._aWQ9NzQxMg_.html ):

Diese Stellen konnten aber von den wenigen Zugewanderten nicht besetzt werden: Im Jahr 2009 wanderten lediglich 311 hoch qualifizierte Drittstaatsangehörige zu, 142 Forscher (Paragraf 20 AufenthG) und 169 andere Hochqualifizierte (Paragraf 19 AufenthG). Gleichzeitig verließen jedoch 109 Hochqualifizierte das Land wieder. Somit bleibt festzustellen, dass die Anwerbung Hochqualifizierter stetig steigt, jedoch im Gesamtumfang kaum Bedeutung besitzt.

I have received my permit from Paragraf 19 AufenthG in 2009, therefore I am one of 169 according to data above from BAMF ( http://www.bamf.de/nn_444062/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Migration/Publikationen/Forschung/WorkingPapers/wp32-deckung-des-arbeitskraeftebedarfs.html ), therefore what I say in my first post that starts this thread, is correct.

Your term IMMIGRATED TO GERMANY is mentioned indeed in the documents, but that does not mean it does not cover the cases in 2009. This wording is a technical term which also covers the people who had migrated before. We have seen similar technical descriptions for Greencard in the reports 2003, 2004 and 2005 from BAMF. It is confusing but covers mine, too.

superid wrote on 21/11/2010 2:33 pm

One thing I would also like to clarify. Your spouse doesnt need the German language A1 ONLY if you were married your spouse as you came to Germany and got the Niederlassungserlaubnis. So for example a person like you who changed his normal AE/BE to this § 19 NE is not eligible to use this relaxation.

I am 100% sure about it because this was the case of a friend of mine. I can search it out sometime when I have time.

Please do that. I am thinking the other way and thus will also ask this to local authorities in Hamburg.

Klenze17.

Hi Klenze,

I personally still think that 'einwandern' only country in people who came specially on this visa but not people who were living here and then changed their visa status from AE/BE to NE 19. NE19 doesnt only count in specialists/managers with 66K or more salary but also scientists who dont need to earn this amount of money.

But this is more of a speculation. Only BAMF can confirm this.

To your question about in which cases the language restrictions are relaxed for spouses of people with NE19. See the document below:

http://www.vfs-germany.co.in/south/images/Info-chklist/Information%20sheet%20german%20knowledge.pdf

It says:

''
The following applicants are exempted from this requirement:
1) Spouses of refugees, guest scientists, visiting scholars and highly qualified specialists
holding an unlimited residence permit according to § 19 AufenthG
(“Niederlassungserlaubnis”). This exemption is only applicable, if the marriage took
place before the employed spouse (husband or wife) was granted a residence permit in
Germany.''

Hi Klenze,

After a brief check of the Migrationsbericht 2008

(http://www.bamf.de/cln_180/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Migration/Publikationen/Forschung/Migrationsberichte/migrationsbericht-2008,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/migrationsbericht-2008.pdf)

Please see page 99 (right top). It says:

''
Davon sind 157 Hochqualifizierte im Jahr 2008
eingereist (2007: 151 Hochqualifizierte). Damit ist die
Zahl der NEU EINGEREISTEN Hochqualifizierten im Vergleich
zum Vorjahr leicht angestiegen (+4,0 %). Insgesamt
war der Großteil der Hochqualifizierten bereits
vor Inkrafttreten des Zuwanderungsgesetzes am
1. Januar 2005 in Deutschland.''

--------------------------------------------

And a call to my contact person at BAMF ;) I can report a positive trend to you as far as the NE19 is concerned:

2008 157
2009 311

--------------------------------------------

And a very clear answer to my question if number311 included the people who have been living in Germany and changed from any other residence permit to NE19 - NO. This is purely the number of people coming in new to Germany.

supersid, you registered at Trust7 since 26/07/2010, just for 4 months. I have registered here 30/12/2004, for 6 years. You are new here. I suggest to read my postings again, since 2004.

With regards from Hamburg,
Klenze17.

Hi Klenze,

Nothing to get offended. I am just countering factually wrong statements so as to highlight the positive changes.

Due to the role I am working in, I do have access to information mentioned above and am sharing it with the rest.

1. You say that there is hardly any increase in people coming in from 2008 to 2009 after decrease in the salary limit for the NE under §19.

And I am telling you that the number has almost doubled from 2008 to 2009. So:

2007 151
2008 157 (Reduction salary limit from 84 to 63K)
2009 311(Increase to 64.4K)

And that neither 151, 157 nor 311 include people like you and me(formerly)who have been living in Germany and then changed their status from AE/BE to NE17.

There is a strong positive trend in changes being made by the German government. Yes it doesnt suffice but the change is there and cannot be ignored. Germany is not a classical immigration country and so I personally dont expect this change immediately.

And yes end of 2008, when you were probably writing on this forum, I was appealing to the Vermittlungsausschuss of the Bundesrat and Bundestag to reduce the salary limit even further to about 54K.

Supersid

PS: I really dont know how my registration date changes the facts I also invite you to read my posts and exchange our learnings. BTW Supersid isnt my first ID here ;)

I would like to know from the people who got the had the §19 and got citizenship. how long did it take after applying? I am going to apply begining of next year in Baden Württemburg.
Any reply will be greatly appreciated!

I applied for this permit and got a rejction letter saying that I am not qualified. My details are as below:

1) I have a PhD in Engineering from a prestigious British University
2) I have bachelor and masters degrees in Engineering.
3) Published more than 10 papers in International conferences and journals
4) There two patents filed under my name in the US and UK.
5) Currently doing research in a leading research organisation.
6) My organisation has written a very nice letter with the details mentioned above.

The reason for rejection is that I am not in a leading role or managerial position, which is not possible at this stage.

Is there anything that I can do further for getting this permit?

@sungeoal

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do other than taking the help of a lawyer if you are that desperate. Or you can wait until you fulfill the conditions for getting a normal NE or D-EG

Its a pity that those ignorant people didnt understand how qualified you are and what asset you are for our country.

They probably dont know the law as the law is not limited to people who work in companies or are managers or IT specialists but also to scientists and researchers like you.

Instead of going to lawyer, I would suggest you to do the following:

1. Print this law http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__19.html
2. Show it to a German speaking colleague (preferably native German speaker) of yours and ask him/her to accompany you to the foreigners office.
3. Make copies of all your certificates and write a short CV in German with someones help
4. Dont go to the case worker in the foreigners office but to his/her boss with a print of the law and explain your case (with help of your colleague)

I think this should work. BTW which state is this happening in and which country are you from ?



----------------

Other things to print and take with you:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/beschv/__3.html

Hi guys,

what are my chances of obtaining the NE right after arriving to germany on a new working visa for a managerial position with an annual salary above 66k? given i already lived and studied in Germany for 5 yrs before hence my german is fluent.

If say i register in Hessen, would this increase my chances to get an NE right on the spot after arriving and registering?

Regards

Dear supersid

Thank you for your response.

I have already given the copies of my certificates to them at the time of my application.

I have spoken to my manager and we are a bit confused about the law. Is there a clear rule for taking a decision regarding the eligibility? It is not clear to us whether all three conditions has to be satisfied. Could you please clarify?

I applied at Fürth (Bay) and I have an Indian passport.

Many thanks

THese are examples of people who could satisfy the conditions.

In your case you are Wissenschaftler and apparently they are treating you like someone working in a company.

As I said you need to go again and talk to the boss (usually more experienced). And listen you need to stubborn and go higher up if it doesnt work.

i have a niederlassungserlaubnis since 2008 and now plan to go back to my native country..Does it mean that my NE will be revoked or is there any procedure how i can retain it ?
thanks - T

Hello all,

If anyone of you applied for "niederlassungserlaubnis" as Highly Skilled Worker in Science then you must have got the reco. letter from ur boss or Prof.s

I need a sample of reco letter for NE application. Can anyone provide me.

Thanks
Vivek

Hi Everyone,

I have §18 Abs.4 S.1 AufenthG (qualif. Besch. RV).

1.Can anybody explain me what type of visa is this?

2. I have "Selbständige Tätigkeit nur mit Genehmigung der Ausländerbehörde gestattet". I understand that it means, I can work as Selbständig (freelancer) only by approval from alien office. but can I work as "geschäftsführer" in a GmbH?

3. If I cant work as "geschäftsführer" then what will be the issues if I work as a normal employee in a GmbH in which I am partner/invester as well?

4. Does anyone know what is the minimum monthly/yearly salary I should be earning in order to continue/ renew my current visa or later to change it to NE etc?

Sorry for long list of questions and thanks a lot in advance.

Hi Klenze,
Thanks for all the inputs on this topic.
I read this topic fully - http://www.trust7.com/en/foren/integration/ne_for_highly_skilled_anual_salary_63000_euro
I am moving to Germany from USA, starting october as I have got a job as a manager in Bayer in NRW. It looks like the Aliens department at Cologne have mentioned my HR department that I am eligible for NE under $19(salary and all other conditions match). I will be travelling with my wife to germany and she is also a well qualified person with Engg, MS and MBA to her credit.
I wanted to know whether my wife will get work permit rights similar to mine as I can see that NE under $19 is not bound to a company at all. PLease let me know your thoughts as I am not able to find clear cut replies on this topic as there are very few people under NE $19. Or, if you could let me know where to see information relevant to this, it will be a great help
Thanks
Sud P

If one get unlimited residence/work permit(Niederlassungserlaubnis, NE), his/her spouse will also get work permit right away,though the residence permit may have to to be extended every year. It should be true for highly skilled category as well.

First, thanks to all on these forums, which provide much useful information on the ins and outs of the German system!

I got my Niederlassungserlaubnis für Hochqualifizierte this week. It was relatively painless, but took about 4 months to process. I was clearly the first person at my local Auslanderbehörde to apply for this, so there was a bit of a learning curve for all. But I must say that the local officials worked steadily to get the approval. At no time did I feel that they were obstructing the process, rather ensuring they got it right the first time.

It would seem from my experience, the emphasis for this permit does seem to be placed on having a management/leading role in a company, but less emphasis on education (multiple PhD.s etc). I'm not saying that it's impossible to get this permit without a management role, but this clearly helps.

Interestingly, my German language skills (which are weak) was not an issue at all.

Cheers,

Obroni

Hi Obroni,

Congratulations!!
I also want to apply for this NE and my salary is above the limit.
But it seems that the alien office here have no idea about this topic..
Is it possible to have a mail communication with you to understand the documents which are needed.

Thanks

Well, all I did was print out the actual regulation from the online rule book and bring it along to the Auslanderbehörde. I think the regulation starts on this page:

http://www.bgbl.de/Xaver/start.xav?startbk=Bundesanzeiger_BGBl&start=//*[@attr_id=%27bgbl108s2846.pdf%27]

As with you, they had never seen this regulation before, and took some time to study it before getting back to me (via my company HR).

I did this without pushing all my particulars on them, except to note that I believed I was qualified. Once they had absorbed the information, and probably verified it with more senior people, they were OK to move forward with the "trial balloon" of my case.

I've lived all over the world, and sat in many an Immigration office. The worst thing you can do is make a big show that they don't understand their own regulations!

This worked OK for me. As many people note, your results may vary, depending on your location in Germany.

Cheers,

Obroni

Link doesn't work well. Copy and paste the part in brackets [ ] after the first part of the web address, then it's OK.

O.

which material you provided to prove that you are highly qualified?
thanks in advance.

Letter from my company outlining my education and (mostly) my work experience was sufficient for me. No other documentation was provided.

O.

Hi Obroni,

I need some more information, it will be very kind of you if you can please contact me at this address
punar80@gmail.com

Thanks,

Hi supersid and all

As I mentioned some months ago, I have not been offered a § 19 AufenthG permit. The reason was that I am not in a managerial position. Let me remind you my profile:

1) I have a PhD in Engineering from a prestigious British University
2) I have bachelor and masters degrees in Engineering.
3) Published more than 10 papers in International conferences and journals
4) There are patents filed under my name in the US and UK.
5) Currently working as a scientist in a leading research organisation.
6) My organisation has written a very nice letter with the details mentioned above.

As supersid mentioned in his post (on 08.02.2011 18:37 on the 2nd page of this thread), I approached my manager for going to alien office. He offered help to talk to the alien office. However, before doing so, he suggested me to do a bit more research into this matter. I read from the posts of Obroni that it is difficult to get this permit without a managerial role.

Is there anyone here or do you know someone who got this permit without a managerial role but working as a researcher with a PhD degree? If so, could you please help me to get some more information? Please use my email address below:

sungeoal 'at' gmail 'dot' com

Thank you.

As I said, it is bullsh** that you have to be manager It says clearly, specialists OR managers OR researchers in the rules I quoted. You are researcher AND specialist.

If you dont want to be fooled by them, talk to the boss

Otherwise your choice

Thanks supersid for your quick response. I too understand that it is "specialists OR managers OR researchers". Myself and my manager thinks that we should really clarify that it is not "specialists AND managers AND researchers". We just wonder why they read it as "specialists AND managers AND researchers". Perhaps there is a detailed book of law which is not public?

Is there any other document that gives a better clarification that it is one of the three category?

Thanks

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__19.html

If they dont understand this, they need German lessons.

Read page 179

http://www.bundesrat.de/cln_090/SharedDocs/Drucksachen/2009/0601-700/669-09,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/669-09.pdf

Point 19.2.3

OK, thank you for the link to the document. I will try my best.

supersid, perhaps it would help if I or my manager speaks to you shortly, it is about the meeting that we plan to do with the alien office, perhaps you have some expereince with it. Would you mind if one of us does that? If not, could you please write to me on sungeoal 'at' gmail 'dot' com? Thank you.

check email.

Hi Supersid,

Thanks for all your post, they are very helpful.
I also have two questions, maybe you have an idea about them :

1. The salary limit of 66 is for Basic salary, for me combined salary including bonus is above 70 but basic is bit less, will it be okay for NE?

2. Will SAP senior consultant with 7+ year of specialised experience be qualified?

Thanks a lot!
Naresh

1. The salary limit of 66 is for Basic salary, for me combined salary including bonus is above 70 but basic is bit less, will it be okay for NE?
--> some offices accept some dont, depends on the person sitting there

2. Will SAP senior consultant with 7+ year of specialised experience be qualified?
--> sounds good.

Hello all,

Can anyone who received §19 Niederlassungserlaubnis let me know the documents required while applying for this?

I am changing my job in a month and my new salary would be above the required limit of 66K Euros. I called up Ausländerbehörde to check this, but the lady there had experience only handling people under this category who are scientists etc. She was listing down many documents which aren't relevant in my case. These are some of the documents she listed (the others I can't remember)

1. Arbeitsbescheinigung
2. 3 Monate Gehaltsabrechnung
3. She also mentioned some document from "Ministerium"

Can anyone who has done this let me know the exact documents required?

Thanks in advance

As is often the case, there are different interpretations from different Ausländerbehörden. My observation at my office was that the documents that came directly from my company (which is a very large one in Germany), directly relating to my job position held a lot of weight. Other offices, it seems, are more concerned about educational details, for example. In my case, having the clear and direct backing of my company appears to have been very important. Your results may vary!

At the end of the day, there is probably no one package of documents that fit the bill in every location and for every person. Be aware that the applicants for the Niederlassungserlaubnis für Hochqualifizierte are few and far between. If you live somewhere small, you may be the first person applying for this permit. Be prepared for some misunderstandings about the purpose of the permit, and your suitability and qualification.

Good Luck!

O