Dear All:
This forum is to enquire about your experience and suggestions regarding the legal system and procedures in Berlin. I wished to invite my mother and brother from India for a family visit to Berlin on Visitor's Visa. Despite their complete applications, the Germany Embassy in New Delhi rejected their Visa. No reasoning was provided in the beginning. And upon our appeal against the rejections, the embassy provided quite lame reasoning against my brother's application four months later. That he is a financially "not-so-sound" businessman in Embassy's opinion and has a family in India, which depedns on him (wife and three kids so no overseas travel). As you would notice they have interpreted this "family thing" not as a reason to return to India but rather otherwise. On top of this, there is no justification at all for the rejection of my mother's visa who has actually visited Germany twice in the last three years. Her visa is rejected only because it was submitted together with my brother. More stupid thing (yet another embassy tactics block proceedings), they communicated all this stuff to the applicants in German language in India despite an obligation to do so in English. It is an overseas mission after all. Now, I would like to take this matter to German Court as a German Citizen who deserves to invite his family. So far, I have no exerience with the legal system, and very much appreciate the expert and non-expert advices alike from you guys. Thank you for sparing time to read and answer this topic.

Cool down! why are you suddenly jumping to the court. First you need to consult with a lawyer, you simply cant fire your case directly to the court. Ask your lawyer to analyse your case carefully otherwise you will end up with hefty fine if you lose the case.

I agree that its stupid to reply in German for an Indian applicant in India.

Think before you act. See whether you can re-apply. Also consult a good lawyer and take the appropriate channel.

Hi,
I think this is completely unjustified. I can't understand even the financial reason,if you are providing the formal invitation from the local ABH. I may face the similar situation next week as my wife will apply for visitor visa in Delhi after the spouse visa was rejected due to my limited future stay.

I recommand to lodge a formal compaint, both the stated reason are completely unjustified.I am sure that the Indian embassy does not behave in similar way for German citizen.


Naresh

Dear 'Roundtheclock',

I just returned from a short trip and I feel a bit sick, therefore just a first, short answer:

I promise you to give you all the support which a forum like trust7 can give! I myself faced similar problems for my employees from India when they wanted to get visit visa for their spouses and I think this is absolutely stupid and not acceptable.

The German Embassy and Consulates should be able to distinguish between high qualified professionals and others, not so lucky people who might try to get a tourist visa and do not plan to go back.

Maybe we should start gathering signatures for a fair ad fast procedure of visa applications from relatives of foreign experts who are working in Germany and at least for Germany.

I am open for suggestions!
Detlef

Dear Detlef,

It is a very good idea and I can gather lot of support for signature campaign.
Even my case is very strange, I am in Germany from March 2008 as International transfer from MNC IT company. I got married in Feb 2010, and my company applied for spouse visa with the help of lawyer, after complete 12 weeks, ABH just rejected the visa on the basis that my further stay is possible only till March 31st 2011.
Even for visitor visa formal invitation letter, the ABH mentioned in the letter that embassy should check return documents for my wife.
This is really strange, I am a qualified consultant and my presence was important for the project. Now I may have to leave Germany as I do not see much hope for embassy to approve her visitor visa.
It is important that we do a legal protest against this type of action in order to separate good cases from not so fortunate one.

Thanks,
Naresh

Dear All:
thank you very much for your valuable input. I know many of us face this situation in everyday life. I could make it a political issue through my employer (Humboldt University) as I have an honorary citizenship for highly qualified scientist (under 3-yrs rule) and have had a permanent residence status under the same category. I think, the case is quite strong against the embassy. I need some expert opinions about the legal process and system in Germany. I would also appreciate this "Signature" campaign.

Dear All,

I am not very active member of trust 7 but i am quietly following this website from so long. I faced similar problem with German consulate in new Delhi. they rejected my mother visa in spite complete documentation. they stated reason that
they are not sure, she will go back or not. I really don't see that as valid reason. Surprise thing, they gave visa to my younger brother last summer without any problem. This is really stupid, they are just distributing visas according to their mood. I hate it. Moreover, there outside agents asking x amount to get visa done in next 7 days. I think, this is extreme case now. We need to do something against stupid people sitting inside/outside embassy. I want to teach them a lesson. suggestion please.

This is a example of height of stupidity by German embassy in Delhi. I only guess there is smell of corruption ongoing even in embassy too. I have heard that Delhi has started a smaller 4-5 consulate offices for applying Visa, reason for that is that they don't want people to apply directly at the embassy. They want people to follow consular offices route now. Very shamely attitude of embassy perosons, even they are now rejecting Visitor visa for German citizen of Indian origin now.....
Must somebody have to act now......

I am glad, my thread is gaining attention. I am in contact with the University office and keep you updated. I am also taking this issue to representative office of German Research Foundation (DFG) in New Delhi. It would be nice if more qualified people can come on board and have their experience document. This thread can also be used to take a legal action against the embassy.

Hi roundtheclock,
Please let me know, how we can support you in the best way. I can gather support from my company as well, which is infact one of the largest employer in Germany.

Thanks,
Naresh

Hi again,

I can write a mail to all trust7 users (6400) and ask them to visit the forum to read the thread. Then I will set up a special mail address, like protest at trust7 dot com, or whatever you like and everybody who wants to join the group can write a mail to this address.

It should be possible just to send a mail with a short statement like 'I support this acitivity' and others, who have their own stories, can add these stories.

I also suggest not to focus everything on Dehli and 'Roundtheclock' but make it as a demand on ALL German Embassies and Consulates to treat the relatives of highly qualified experts as VIPs, thats what I think that they are ;-)

The 'Roundtheclock' case can be the 'Titel Story' the 'Leading Article' and one of many examples for the treatment of you by the German visa people.

This is just a suggestion.

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

Hi npurohit:
It would be nice if your company gets in contact with Humboldt University - Akademisches Auslandsamt and discusses this issue. They both might take a joint action.

@Detlef

Thanks for your support. Guys!! count me in!! :-)

I am up for everything

this is a very interesting case.

I though the EU country will welcome more foreigner that want to visit europe to have fun and to spend money SO they can EARN some money.

I never have this experience when I invited my mother inlaw (2 times, 1 in 2006/7 and 1 in 2009) but not from India though.

anyway Good Luck Guys, I would like to know if there is any follow up of the letter.

Dear Detlef:
I really appreciate your concern and like the idea of having an e-mail ID setup where users can document their experience. But my experience says this kind of campaigns should be much more targeted for/against a mission. As in this case, many of us have bad experience with German Embassy in New Delhi, I find it suitable to stick against this mission. Usually, if a favorable decision is made the impact is far wider and also applies to other missions in same or other countries as well. Another advantage of focus is to find a behavioral pattern of embassy staff (prejudice, mood swings, erratic nature) that is only possible if we stick to the same mission. If the matter goes to court, these factors are very important for your campaign. Other thing, all "victims" of the German Embassy (ND) can also file a joint law-suit, which would be rather effective as well as not-so-much a financial burden.

@roundtheclock

I guess what Detlef suggested is very professional approach and will definitely have far reaching effects, rather than concentrating on New Delhi and having a direct face-off with the officers of ND mission.

Besides their are 6400 trust7 members and I guess 10 to 20 people belong to Delhi and may be 50% of them will be afraid of putting up their names, so general approach will be wise i.e VIPs and not so lucky persons should be treated differently :-) (sorry no offense)

Dear 'RTC',

I am a pragmatic, so I suggest to start a campaign for all and use the result (hopefully great number of signatures) for your legal case and additional for a media campaign for better conditions for GCs.

@all

Please let us know what you think! Is there a common interest?

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

@Detlef,
The info. seems quite reasonable. Count me in.

Regards!

count on me as well !!
Same case happened with my Mother at the N. Delhi Embassy but at the end they asked me to apply again and gave her the Visa.

Greetings from Düsseldorf
Deepak

@Detlef
You perhaps have more experience in organizing such an activity. I still feel there has to be some sort of focus. It is not a bad idea to collect signatures and documents from all victims and then take multiple parallel actions. It is sound enough if we get only 10 applicqants against the Embassy in Delhi and, let's say 5 against Moscow. What counts at the end in court is the quality/reasoning and complete documents not so much of quantity (it helps though).

Dear 'Roundtheclock',

you are absolutely right, it can not be a mistake to do more than one activity! So go ahead with your case and be sure to get the support of trust7 and I take your push to start a campaign for more fairness regarding the visits and visa of friends and relatives of foreign experts working in Germany.

I will therefor start a new topic and I will do it rigt now.

Good luck and a nice weekend
Detlef :-)

I am a German citizen of Indian origin and would like to add the following.

I recently had a very pleasant experience with German embassy in Delhi. They gave visa to my father (it was his 2nd visit to Germany) even though he did not have the formal invitation letter from me/ABH. I was apparently in India at that time and did not have a chance to get the formal invitation letter from ABH here in Germany. Very appreciative and thankful to German embassy for that.

Now I wish and hope that they treat everyone like this which of course is not the case, as I have been reading in this post and hearing about it. So I would like to extend my support to this cause.

Lots of people suggested to consult a good lawyer for original poster's problem. There is an Indian origin German lawyer in Berlin who is extremely professional and can be recommended for this purpose. He often writes articles on immigration/visa issues and can be contacted at "rechtsanwalt_jain@yahoo.de".

We need to take a calm, calculated and well-thought approach on this entire issue and I recommend the following:

1. For addressing the immediate problem of original poster "@roundtheclock", he can take legal help from a professional lawyer for getting visa for his mother & brother immediately.

2. To address the main issue (i.e. unfair treatment to visa applicants related to highly qualified expats): Start an online petition (for e.g. http://www.petitiononline.com/ ) for collecting support and eSignatures for this cause. Following people/communities can be invited to sign this online petition:

a. All highly skilled immigrants working in Germany, including "but not limited" to Indians.

b. German citizens of Indian origin.

c. Famous/celebrity German citizens of Indian origin. Apparently there is a long list of them online at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_Germany which includes Mayor of a German town, German parliamentarians (i.e. Bundestag members), singers, actors, professors etc. Add Robin Dutt (manager of Bundesliga side SC Freiburg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dutt) & Ranga Yogeshwar (http://www.yogeshwar.de/ , http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranga_Yogeshwar ) to this list.

d. Online German-Indian communities (like indians_in_germany@yahoogroups.com, Indians-in-Germany@yahoogroups.com , G3Consortium@yahoogroups.com , ginds@yahoogroups.com and many more)

e. Numerous Indian associations (Vereins) registered in Germany (like www.bharatverein.de , Deutsch - Indische Gesellschaft Darmstadt @ www.dig-darmstadt.de and many many more).

Guys who have first-hand experienced this problem can take the lead by forming a group and start working on the above activities. Others can spread the word for signing the petition (once it has been set up online).

Please do not restrict the above list just to Indians or to Indian communities, but also to all other expats who have had similar problems with German embassies in their home countries.

Though it would be un-realistic to expect any support from expats of developed world origin since they (or their relatives) do not need any visa to visit Germany and hence might not be bothered.

Add to the list:

f. Indian Ambassador / High Commissioner in Germany. They can add a lot of weight to this cause.

g. German press. They are always looking for interesting stories. Recently Germany's declining population and need for highly qualified immigrants has been in news and this whole issue is very related to it.

In response to Detlef's email to the members. This forum helped me a lot when I was in Germany (I left in 2006 so have not kept up to date with the latest visa application processes and issue on this forum). Detlef has done a great job in supporting the GC holders and stood by them and their cause and still does it. Thanks Detlef!

Here are my 2 cents.

I had the same experience back in 2005 when I was in Germany. I was not very happy when my brother-in-law's visa application was rejected. I had a formal invitation from ABH same as I did when I invited my parents and in-laws. None of the other visas got rejected and I was quite impressed with the streamlined process. I think my brother-in-law's visa application was accepted at a processing office in New Delhi and not at the embassy. We had made all plans to have my brother-in-law over so we were very sad on hearing that he could not travel. Having said that I had a positive outcome. I decide to call the German Embassy in New Delhi and talk to a Counselor. I inquired about the reason and was told that I should ask my brother-in-law to visit the embassy and he will be given the reason. Not being very satisfied I asked the counselor what I did different this time or what factor changed now and when my parents / in-laws applied that this application was rejected. I have the same documents, the formal invitation which is an obligation for maintenance and to see that the persons returns back. The counselor was considerate and asked about my brother-in-law's details. He checked in the records and found an error (I don't know at what stage it happened). It was resolved and I was asked to send my brother-in-law to the embassy and get his visa. I am not sure if he had to make another application or the same application was enough. This was really impressive. I cannot speak for other embassies but this personal experience made a positive impact. I can provide more details if needed.

Reading through this thread, I wonder maybe I was just lucky to speak to a reasonable person. We should not be lucky when it comes to foreign missions as it is their job to identify good from bad and facilitate legitimate travel. Every country struggles from certain visitors that misuse their visa and India gets its own share of well educated violators as well.

At then end if somebody needs to be punished then it is the employer for employing the highly skilled worker or the company doing business with a foreign entity. Harassing employees is attacking the issue at the wrong end. I can't imagine why a spouse is not given a visa when the stay is limited. The visa should be valid as long as the visa for the skilled worker is valid, I don't think this is that complicated or maybe it is. Why can a work visa be issued but no visa for dependents? Is it not exploitation of a person's skills and forced labor? Is it true that only a person capable to contribute effectively and can produce good or render services welcome and all limitations and restrictions are applicable to the dependent family and children of the qualified worker. Punishing a foreigner is easier as most of the time a foreigner does not know his/her rights and in the case of Germany is very foreign to the culture and language. He/she will most likely choose an alternate path to overcome the unjust and at times inhuman (read forced separation) action of someone.

Sad to hear of the suffering both mental and emotional that people have to go through, I can relate as I have been through this. I am willing to put my pen down and sign for fairplay!

Note: Not every Indian decides to live forever in Germany, nor does every Indian like to give up the blue passport. I lived in Germany because somebody needed my services / skills and I wanted to see what living and working in Germany was like. I felt that I should move on and left Germany with both positive and negative experiences to relate to. I know there are many more like me who were part of this forum and moved on.

Hi Aupadh,

Very well expressed article. I am now leaving Germany earlier due to the reason that my wife was not provided the dependent visa. This is combined loss for both company and me.
My wife has tourist/Visitor visa interview tomorrow with embassy with a support letter from company ensuring her return and other expenses, if now they dont provide a visitor visa, it will be real unfair behavior and need to be take forward.

Will keep you updated.


Naresh

It was nice to hear from you Detlef after a long time.

I appreciate your effort on this and would like to share my recent experience in this regard.

Early this year German Embassy in Chennai rejected my sister's application for visitor's visa. Followed by the first rejection I asked my sister to approach again with some additional documents including a declaration letter assuring her return.

All our efforts went in vain and twice the same matter was stated in the rejection letter by the embassy:-

==================================================
Please understand that, under German law and in line with established international practice, no reasons for such denial need be given.

Section 77, paragraph 2 of the German Residence Act states


bla bla bla
==================================================

Just like other guys here in this forum I simply had to give up.

Dear All:
You may feel from my long silence that I have given up on this Embassy issue. Let me reassure you, I am on it and taking Embassy by its horns. Since the case is strongly in my favor and considering my profile, my employer has already made it a political issue and dealing with it through Research Wing (DAAD) of German Government. I will keep you updated with the outcome.

To Detlef and others who had started with an initiative.

Even though i had not faced any issues with the Consular authorities back in India, i would still like to be with you all and so please count me in and let me know what best i could do.

My email ID is Sudeep.Pondala AT gmail dot com

Hello All:
My aplogies for a long silence. As I mentioned before, I had been waiting for the verdict. So, I succeeded in obtaining Visa for my mother as well as for brother by soft means i.e. approaching Embassy through my employer and German Academic Exchange Service, Embassy formally asked us to resubmit applications and granted appropriate Visas withoug any hassle. I don't know what it would mean for all victims who were unable to beat the heat. I am still open to support all those and be part of Detlef's campaign. If Detlef wishes to, we could meet in Berlin and think about organizing a media interview or article.

I also have the same experience in Chennai German Consulate, they rejected my sister's visa and telling that she is not studying (Actually she failed one subject of degree ) and They are not sure she will go back or not. I provide all the information and showing that she is comming with my mother and will return with her. But My mother gort visa and my sister didnot.

Please give some suggestion, how to procced ?

continue...

I got my sister's visa rejection letter, it says that "Your intention to leave the territory of Member states before the expiry of the visa could not be ascertained"

Since she is not working, I donot know how could I make them to believe that my sister will return after her visit to Germay.

Any help?

I invited my mother and sister with all supporting documents(verplichtung erklärung, employer letter etc) and working in Germany since Jan 2001.

Dear Detlef,

Do not loose the idea of this Visa subject.Please take the initiative.There is a bigger problem we need to address.

There is a rule that family doesnot include parents...

I do not know why is this.But in most of the countries parents are part of the family.If a son or a daughter wants their parents to be with them then they shall not be denied this Oppurtunity.specially when they can afford their stay..

This my need a change in the law..

Please help and share your views on this...

Going to press is a good Idea after getting the signature support from atleast Trust 7 members.

Dear Trust7 members,

I agree with "havehope", lot of Greencard guys are here since year 2000. Now our parents are getting older and we have to support them. In third world countries there is no big support from the Govt as well.
If the guy is having a decent job and can take the financial responsibility the govt here should have no problem.
On the other hand they are ready to accept asylum seekers and pay them for not working.
If we all can get together and work on it I think we can over come this problem.

Please any other takers on this issue .

Parents shall be allowed to join the Highly qualified professionals..

I second you havehope.

Also I think maximum stay for visiting visa(ex:parents) must be extended to 6months, instead of getting some special permission etc.

count me in.
We should start doing something now otherwise it is too late.

Also we should do something aganist denying tourist visa to our familymembers(brothers/sisters), thinking(consulate) that they are here for finding a job and wonnot return after their visit.

Dear All,

I have been reading this thread for a long time. I am an Indian but didnt really face these problems myself, which can be due to many reasons. Probably because of the fact that I speak fluent German, can argue my case and probably because my parents have been coming to Europe since a long time.

However, I know that these problems are genuine and is one of the many reasons why qualified professionals decide not to come to Germany to work or leave it after some time. The demographic development of Germany however does clearly indicate how much German needs qualified foreign professionals. Also the hard work we have put in developing Germany, which I call 'meine gewünschte Heimat', cant be doubted.

In general, I think legal action wouldnt really help due to the discretionary powers of the embassy, however addressing these problems to the right people would help. I head an organization Gesellschaft für Deutsch-Indische Zusammenarbeit e.V. (Association for Indo-German Cooperation) and am Member of the Bayerischer Integrationsrat (Integration Committee of Bavaria). Our organization and me personally have been fighting for the cause of highly qualified people (for example certain citizenship rules, etc). I would like to support this cause in the following way. I offer to write a collective petition (with email signatures) and address the issues to the Chancellor, Commission for Integration Prof. Böhmer, Interior Minister De Maziere and the Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge (Federal Office for Migration and Asylum) in my official capacity as the head of this organization. I have decent contacts in some of the above mentioned offices and other organizations and they will definitely support us.

Like most of you, I have limited time and need the following help and persons who who takes on the responsibility for the following points:

1. Collect the issues to be addressed on a central email address. Written in short points
2. Possible practical solutions to these problems
3. Collect signatures electrically. Once we prepare this petition, we would put this petition on the website and collect names/addresses of supporting the petition.

This however has to be done in German (I will handle this). In terms of deadlines, I think this will take us about 1.5-2 months to complete the whole process. I dont think that we can expect immediate changes, but definitely acknowledgement from the right people and steps in the right direction.

What do you guys say ? Sounds like a plan ?

Siddharth
PS: www.gdiz.de is our current website. In 3 weeks max our modern new website in German will be online

Hi,

i am with you.

please organize an email address.

regards

@supersid
Great!. I am also with you. Please setup the email address, so that we could start collecting the issues.

Hi Supersid,

I am happy, that there is somebody who wants to take care of this! Especially somebody like you with very good connections.

Maybe you have not seen this topic:

http://www.trust7.com/en/foren/integration/fair_play_for_foreign_experts

Here we have a special mail address already, and you can use this if you want.

Good luck
Detlef

Supersid is back

Dear Detlef and all others who would like to support the petition asking for following things:

1. Better/easier visa conditions for visiting family members of qualified professionals
2. Reduction of salary level for issuance of permanent residence permit for qualified professionals
3. Marketing campaigne about getting qualified people to work in Germany
4. Point based immigration system to avoid misuse and promote need based immigration
5. More transparence on the social security rules once professionals go back to their country

These are just some of the points. I am sure you guys have faced other issues as well.

Any other ideas which you think are worth highlighting, please write a short mail with Problem + proposed Solution at gdizmunich@gmail.com

Supersid

So as expected the whole Aktionismus died.....

No one wrote to me so far.

I got the following reply of my complained letter/query regarding my sister's visiting visa rejection and asked them how to procced and what extra document needed etc

"Upon receipt of your above mentioned e-mail I have revised the applicant's file.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to issue a visa, because the visa requirements are not being fulfilled at this time. With reference to the German Data Protection Law I am, however, unable to give you any further details regarding the reasons for the visa reject."

@ supersid

Well, during the years I made this experience very often. Unfortunately!

Nevertheless, when the 'Sommerloch' is over, I will try again to arouse some interest by journalists I know. I got almost 20 supporting emails and I feel responsible for the engineers who are working for my company, netWalk IS Ltd.

And I hate bureaucracy and stupidness!

I wish all of you a nice weekend
und viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef :-)

Hi Detlef,

Great to hear that you had already got 20 replies. Well you could forward them to me at gdizmunich@gmail.com and I could go through them to consolidate the problems and then send you back for a recheck.

Regards
Supersid

Hi,

I am working in Germany and facing lots of problem in getting long term visa for my parents who are very old and dependent on me. For this reason i visited Immigration office in Germany, so that i can convience them to provide long term visa for my dependent parents, unfortunetly they only allowed 3 months tourist visa. Its very difficuilt for all the indians working in Germany, we cannot leave our old parents alone in India. I request all of you to please help me to solve this problem.

Regards
Pooja

Hello Mr. Roundtheclock

I request you to please solve my problem regarding the visa for my old parents.


I am working in Germany and facing lots of problem in getting long term visa for my parents who are very old and dependent on me. For this reason i visited Immigration office in Germany, so that i can convience them to provide long term visa for my dependent parents, unfortunetly they only allowed 3 months tourist visa. Its very difficuilt for all the indians working in Germany, we cannot leave our old parents alone in India. I request all of you to please help me to solve this problem.

Regards
Pooja

Dear All,

was going thru the posts and wondered if there was any progress in the last months...I have a new story..since I was moving to germany for a few years and my mom is alone in india, we tried to apply for a long term visa, dependent...of course after 12 weeks, and some interviews, they rejected it...and then we applied now for a tourist visa..and guess what, they rejected that on the ground that there are insufficient reasons for return to India!!. Possibly the first application for the long term visa led to the second rejection as well...Now how do I get out of this?., so that we manage atleast a tourist visa.All help appreciated

@soorajith

If only you have researched on this subject before applying for a longterm visa, you wouldnt be in this situation. You shouldnt have applied for the visit visa so close after the rejection. That gives a doubt to the visa officer, that you are so desperate to bring your mother at any cost and she will stay in germany permanently after arriving.

Unfortunately there is nothing much you can do now. Since you cannot appeal the decision, just wait for a year and then apply for a visitors visa again. Maybe she will get it next time.

But take heart becos even if we have german citizenship we cannot bring our parents until it is an extreme hardship case.

@roundtheclock

Did you manage to get the visa for your mother.

Thanks

Hi,

It has been a long time since you posted this question, however, I am curious to know if your mother was able to get a long term visa...I am in a similar situation and it would be really helpful if you can guide me.

Thanks!

- Girija