Hi All,
Let me introduce you the one of the most popular holiday destinations of the meditteranean sea. Yes, you are right.. it is Turkey. (Sometimes we prefer to call it "Turkiye", because of the other meaning of the English word "Turkey" That should be a bad joke of the English people, when they decided to name our country..

Turkey is a Secular-Republic founded in 1923 by the revolutionist Turkish leader Mustafa Kemal Atatürk ( http://www.ataturk.org/index2.html ). The vast majority of the population is Muslim. (%99 as claimed by some authorities) but because of the strictly secular structure of the government and because of the own-Turkish interpretation of the Muslim religion, Turkey tends to look like a more European country than an Arabic country which is governed under Religion rules.

Turkish is the language spoken in Turkey. It is also the official language of the country. Turkish has nothing to do with the Arabic language, as most people at first glance may think. Turkish languge originates from Middle-Asia and it is close relative of the languages spoken in Azerbaijan, Tuerkmenistan, Kirgizistan, Tacikistan and Uezbekistan. (Mutual understanding is possible esspecially with Azerbaijani Turkish dialect). If we deeply look into the roots of the language, we can see that languages like Hungarian and Finnish also come from the same family, as Turkish comes from. (Ural-Altaic Language Family. More info: http://home.unilang.org/main/wiki2/index.php/Ural-Altaic_languages )

There are also some common Cliches regarding Turkey which are not necessarily correct. Regarding to clarify those questions, I would advise the following web site: http://www.orkun.org/question/

Capital of Turkey is Ankara. It is NOT Istanbul, as many people think. Istanbul is the most-populated and biggest city of Turkey with around 12 million people living there. The other important cities are Izmir, Bursa, Adana, Antalya(quite famous in Germany)

Turkey is a member of NATO since 1952 ( http://www.nato.int/turkey/turkey2.htm ) This joining date is earlier than most of the European countries.
Turkey is planning to join EU as well. Negotiations are supposed to open this year. Turkey is already part of the EU Customs-Union and Turkish citizens are treated differently than the other 3rd country citizens in EU because of the mutual aggrements between EU and Turkey.

If you want more information, please do ask or you can also visit the official web-page prepared by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey. ( http://www.turkey.org )

Regards,

Lacrima

I see I have competition.

Whowww!

That's interesting and a very good example for others, especially because of the useful links.

Thanks a lot Lacrima
Detlef

hi

I have visited the turkey for a while ago, that s a nice conutry,and the people were very friendly.

But you musst understand that there is still big differences between the turkey and other west european contry,althought you tried in your message to explain us that all make you different from the arabic culture and language.

It s not by trying to deny any influence of the arabic-islamic culture on the turkey that you will gain more rescpect from the West european countries,if you need ot not that is a part of the histroy and the indentity of the turkey.

I say you that because i love your country and think there is much things that arabic countries can learn from the turkey in the politic and economic area.

Thanks
Ismail

Hi Ismail,

I didnt mean to offend you with my comments(I assume you are coming from an Arabic country as your name implies). We do have an influence of the Arabic culture. I dont deny that.

But after living in two different countries, I am a bit sick of being confused with Arabic nationals and Turkey's culture with Arabic culture. (Having an influence of another culture does not necessarily mean that own culture does not exist anymore.) Today many countries(including Germany) have the influence of US but they still (try) to keep their own culture.

I have experienced cases where people asked me to translate a speech which was held in Arabic. For god's sake, how can I translate Arabic ? I am from TURKEY. I dont understand Arabic. My mother-tongue is Turkish and Turkish language does not have an influence of the Arabic language which is not more than English language influence. Do you see ? so I have to draw the line stricly to emphasis that I dont speak/understand Arabic(which most people in West think that I should)

You can come up and say, Arabic language has nothing to do with the Turkish language. I would not feel offended and your statement would be the phrasing of the reality.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hallo lacrima,
es ist ja wunderbar!, du hast dein Land toll beschrieben. Tolle Werbung!
Muss ich sagen habe ich mich sehr gewundert. Ich hätte nie gedacht, dass so ein schönes Land die Türken haben. Insbesondere interessant war zu erfahren, dass die Türken soo tiefe Wurzeln der von Sprache und Kultur haben, die in sehr tiefe Vergangenheit gehen sollen, und sogar zu einer Familie gehören müssen. Du bist ja wahrscheinlich der erste Türker, der über seine Vergangenheit sprechen will, und dass ist gut so…
Da deine deutsche Sprache eine gute Niveau hat (du hast ja ganz gut die Korrekturen durchgeführt), kann ich mich vorstellen, dass du schon lange in Deutschland lebst, und leider ziemlich lange Zeit in diese wunderschöne Land nicht mehr lebst.
Ich würde dich bitten, meine Grammatik wieder zu korrigieren.
Grüße aus München,
ashka.

"und sogar zu einer Familie gehören müssen"

Das mit eine Familie gilt eigentlich für ganze Welt. Alle Leute haben einen diselben Opa der lebte vor 40k Jahre und Oma die lebte vor 200k Jahren. Das ist wissenschaftlich bewiesen (DNA).

@ashka

Hallo Ashka,
Danke für deine Komplimente. Ich habe versucht mein Bestens zu geben, um mein Land besser vorzustellen. Ich bin nicht so lange in Deutschland. Genauer gesagt, bin ich seit 2,5 Jahren hier. Ich bin kein deutsch-Profi und meine Korrekturen sind ohne Garantie. Es kann sein, dass mein Text auch Fehler hat. Ich arbeite auch daran, mein Deutsch zu verbessern. Übrigens bin ich nicht der erste Türke, der über seine Vergangenheit sprechen will.. das tun viele Türken. Wir haben ja in unserer Vergangenheit nichts uns zu schämen. Was ich hier über mein Land erzählt habe ist ja auch kein Geihemnis.

Es gibt ein paar offensichtliche Fehler in deinem Text. Ich werde versuchen die zu korrigieren. Wie immer, gilt unsere Methode zum korrigieren.

Zwischen "()" bedeutet weg, zwischen "**" bedeutet besser.


Hallo lacrima,
es ist ja wunderbar!, du hast dein Land toll beschrieben. Tolle Werbung ,
muss ich sagen. (habe) ich **habe** mich sehr gewundert. Ich hätte nie gedacht, (dass so ein schönes Land die Türken haben) **,dass die Türken so ein schönes Land haben**. Insbesondere interessant war zu erfahren, dass die Türken so(o) tiefe Wurzeln (der) von **der** Sprache und Kultur haben, die in sehr tiefe Vergangenheit gehen sollen, und sogar zu einer Familie gehören müssen. Du bist ja wahrscheinlich der erste Türke(r), der über seine Vergangenheit sprechen will, und das(s) ist gut so…
Da deine (deutsche Sprache) **deutsch Sprachkenntnisse** ein(e) gute**s** Niveau hat (du hast ja ganz gut die Korrekturen durchgeführt), kann ich (mich) **mir** vorstellen, dass du schon lange in Deutschland lebst, und leider **seit** ziemlich lange**r** Zeit in diese**m** wunderschöne**n** Land nicht mehr lebst.
Ich würde dich bitten, meine Grammatik wieder zu korrigieren.
Grüße aus München,
ashka.

I would say that the name of the topic does represent reality. we must not forget that Europe needs oil but does not have a direct access to it

although i would not be surprised when the access to oil will be granted in exchange to a lengthty talks about future membership in EU, and - who knows? - can it be that in ten years oil will not be so important as it is now? or that the Europe will find some other way to get it *thinks about Chechenya and the rest of Kaukasus, where Russia seems to lose its positions rapidly*


Btw nice story, thanks a lot

Grüß Gott lacrima, Leo, hallo alle,
vielen dank lacrima für die Korrekturen.
In manche stellen hast du die Sätze auch korrigiert. Ich denke schon, dass das Land sehr schön ist, und geografisch eine Brücke zwischen Europa und Asien darstellt. Ich denke das Land ist nicht nur für Europäer sehr attraktive ist sondern auch für andere Länder z.B USA.
Übrigens gibt es auch viele Schriftsteller die über die Geschichte des Landes geschrieben haben: Der Griechische Aleksandropulos oder deutsche klassiker - Franz Werfel. Der Franz Werfel ist sogar in der Literaturverzeichnis zu lesen für diejenige die KDS oder GDS Sprachprüfung in Goethe-Institut machen wollen.
Vielleicht hat der Leo schon etwas von Ihm schon gelesen?
Grüße,
ashka.

Hi Lacrima and all,

I find so wonderful that your story has not only been a very comprehensive review about Turkiye and its features, but also it has worked as a bridge between those who want to give a chance to their German knowledge.

In order to eliminate some stereotypes I would like to ask you something: is there any difference between those Turken who have been living here for decades (I don´t know if the right word is Deutsche-Turken) and those who still live in the big cities of Turkiye like Ankara or Istambul. I ask you this because I was taking some lessons of ethno-marketing, and my teacher says there are many differences between both groups. What is your impression after some years being here?

Keep writing
Juliana

Hi,

it is very interesting to be proud and to be yourself. If somebody force himself to be like the other ones even if they have other cultures as his, it is a little bit silly, isn't it? The Chinese are proud to be Chinese. The Japanese are proud to be Japanese, even when they learned to Europe and introduced it to their own culture. I even wonder, why the Russians don't apply for EU-membership, even they have a lot of similarities with (West) European culture. Because, they are PROUD to be Russians. And this is, what Putin showed, even when Russia is not any powerful as before.
Just my two cents thought.

EE

Hi All
Thanks a bunch to all of you for your comments and for your kindly interest to my country. I am touched

@adna_f

I am not here opening a discussion to find out whether EU Membership should be the way to go for Turkey or not. I also do have my personal opinions regarding this issue but here I am just telling you the guys the official policy of Turkey regarding the EU membership, whether it makes sense or not, is another discussion.

If you ask my personal opinion, I am NOT in the favour of becoming EU member but I can not really influence the policies of the Politicians out there. There is a vast amount of people thinking like me in Turkey. There are always pro/contra ideas regarding a policy. There are always advantages/disadvantages when you take a decision. There is never one correct truth.


@ Juliana

Thanks for mentioning a good point. There are actually big differences between the Turks who are born/grown up here and between the Turks who are born/grown up in big cities of Turkey. Actually this is a phenomenon of immigration. Not only the Turkish immigrants had this problem in the history. Also Chinese born USA, Italians born in USA also experienced similar differences between their compatriots living in their home-lands.

Immigrants tend to build-up ghettos, try to protect their own culture/language in the country they have immigrated. They usually keep a frozen state of their homeland's culture/language because they are not anymore able to follow the changes in the language/culture/behaviours in their homeland. This is also what happened to Turks immigrated to Germany approximately 40 years ago.

They are still living the state of Turkey's 1960s in Germany regarding the culture/language/behaviours. Even the second/third generations, because they also learned "how to be a Turk" from their parents in this closed immigration environment. They just refuse to accept changes. (Ofcourse there are exceptions but I am here just talking about the majority of the Turkish immigrants living in Germany)

I would like to give you guys some examples. It might be interesting to see the observations from a Turkey-born Turk perspective.

- I met a Germany-Born Turk here who was speaking Turkish with a village dialect, although he was studying at a German University. (His German was not a village dialect but his Turkish was poor and with a strong village dialect which would be really unacceptable for example, if he would decide to work in Turkey(Business Environment) after his graduation. He can correct it though by the time but it was interesting. It was just because he learnt Turkish from his parents who were coming from a village in Turkey.)

- I sometimes have to switch to German when I try to speak with Germany-Born Turks. This happened to me in many occasions. Usually Germany-Born Turks do not have the enough Turkish vocabulary to express themselves.

- Sad thing about it is that their German is also not that perfect. Most of them tend to speak with Turkish accent. (which I also do, but for me it is quite normal, as I learnt it after the age of 22) They are really stuck between two cultures, they dont really know where they belong to. Most of them can not speak the both languages perfectly.

- In Turkey, Germany-Born Turks are called "Germaners" ("Deutschlander") when they come to Turkey for holidays. They are easy to recognize from their accent and from the strange words they use(sometimes also from their appearance). They are not really "Turks" in the Turkish society.

- In Germany, Germany-Born Turks are "Turks" and they are not really Germans in the German society either.

These are couple of things that I observed regarding the immigrant Turks in Germany with the glasses of a Turkey-Born Turk. I hope my fellow Germany-Born Turks do not feel offended from my comments. They are actually phrasing of the reality which we can easily observe in our environment in Germany.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi lacrima and all,

Thanks again for your story and your answer to my question.

I find very interesting your description about those who got trapped by two worlds.

Only when we learn from the past, can we avoid the same mistakes in the future. I mentioned this because it is simpler to move around in the so-called getthos, because not everybody is ready to interact with others apart from their own community, or because the new community does not know how to get along with the new members.

I will say that integration at its first stage is a challenge, but afterwards it becomes a piece of cake, giving us the possibility to profit from our background and from the new experiences as well, for instance: being able to speak both languages (mother tongue and host-country one) without feeling like a mix-salad.

Regards
juligori

ich bin aus Türkei.Türkei ist am besten Land für mich.Tatsachlich ist die Türkei eine Bricke zwischen Europa und Asie.Das ist alles von mir.
DAS LEBEN bringt Ihnen alle gute Schönheit!!!

Actually, Turkey doesn't need to be a Bridge (not Brick - which means Backstein, remember Another Brick in the Wall by Pink Floyd!).

It doesn't need, because there is already a bridge called Bosphorus Bridge between the continents Europe and Asia in Istanbul ;)

Greetings from Hamburg to all (ex)GClers,
Klenze17

Hallo Klenze17, hallo an alle,
gut zu sehen, dass man versucht auf Deutsch zu schreiben. Vielleicht der Cobalt meinte eine Brücke, und nicht das "Brick".
Wenn man Geschichte liest, dann sieht man was und wie viel die Türkei mit der Nachbarn gemacht hat. Also rein geografisch zu sehen, Cobalt hat recht -die Türkei ist eine Brücke zwischen Asia und Europa.
Gruss,
ashka

@ashka

"Wenn man Geschichte liest, dann sieht man was und wie viel die Türkei mit der Nachbarn gemacht hat."

What did the Turkey do to its neighbours in the past ? Could you please clarify ? I am not sure if i understand the point here clearly.
Regards.

As far as I remember Geschichte, Turkey did war with Europa and reached my land. They almost got Wien. But in that case I would not call Turkey "bridge between Asia nad Europa". Quite opposite.

DvD

Whatelse, should there be a lesson to learn here or what ? Turks and Turkey are like this/that ?

What do you mean ? Quite opposite means what ?
If Turks and Turkey not a bridge then what are they ?

Yes, Croatia also used to be a part of "Turkey" as well.
Better said, part of the Ottoman Empire.. but those were the old days.. Yes, maybe it is not that true to call Turkey as a Bridge between Asia and Europe. Turkey has been part of Europe since centuries. So Turkey is actually part of Europe by 4 million people living in Europe in different countries.(Some are not immigrants, but descendants of the people remained from the Ottoman Empire time) Ottoman architecture and traces are easy to observe in Balkanic countries and Greece. Those were all "Turkey" some years back.

It is amazing to observe when I meet a Greek, how many common words,customs,traditions,dances we have. (I am from West-Turkey which used to be a land where Greeks and Turks lived peacefully some years back)

Interestingly many famous Greek philisophers who influenced the history of Europe and Mankind, lived on the land where we call now Turkey. Famous Troy is also close to a Turkish city called Canakkale.

I agree, it is not that correct to call Turkey as a bridge between Europe and Asia. It is actually part of Europe with its history, customs and traditions.

Regards,

Lacrima

wrong Lacrima wrong
Croatia was never part of Otoman Empire.

You mixed up something.
Croatia was never conquered by turks. You probably mean Bosnia was conquered by turks but it is also not true. Namely Bosnia was not conquered because they decided to join turks and adopt islam without war.

By the time turks came, Croatia was not separate land anyway. We joined Austrian Reich or Hungary.
And after turks came they took some part of Croatia but they never conquered us. We were fighting against turks for more than 300 years and we were never conquered.

I could help you.
Serbia and Mecedonia were conquered by turks by means of war.
Bosnia joined Ottoman Empire by her own wish.
Croatia with allies made 300 years war with turks and was never conquered.

Hallo alle,
es ist nicht das richtige Forum um so was zu diskutieren – es ist zu Grausam aber....
Man kann verstehen dass viele türkische junge Leute nicht die Möglichkeit oder nicht genügend Zeit hatten, um die Geschichte des Landes richtig kennen zu lernen. Völkermord und Blut das war in Vergangenheit, dass die Türken jetzt als „old“ bezeichnen.
Auch heute findet in Turkei vieles statt, worüber man später wieder schämen muss. Es wundert mir, dass der Lacrima versucht hat eine Ähnlichkeit zwischen Türken und Griechen finden.
Ja, „de-facto“ sind die Türken fast überall, und die möchten ein Teil von Europa sein.
Zu DVD – es waren nicht nur die Kriege…
Gruss,
ashka

@DvD,

Cool down!

Have you been to Turkey after 29 October 1923 ?
Some people do not want to accept Turkey is using the same alphabet like most of the other european countries since 1923. Are you one of them ?

It is over, wake up from your wonderful dreams. Ottoman Empire is not there any more. Arabic alphabet is not there any more. It is different since 82 years. There are kids in Turkey with names of Jesus (Isa) who are the children of muslim families. These are the realities of the Turkey and its people, year 2005. Believe it or not. These are the facts.

If you would like to talk about Turkey, you need to know that people are sick hearing the Wien story. Wien is written in history books. We are talking about today.

Anyway.. SOME ex-Yugoslavian countries were part
of the Ottoman Empire.
You may also understand the difficulty to keep all the countries in my mind from the history, considering the fact that Ottoman Empire was controlling 10s of small countries in three continents at that time. Sorry I might have been mistaken regarding Croatia. You look to be also so proud regarding the 300 years of fight against Turks.
Peace guys.. those were the old days in the history. Mankind's history is full of wars and if we want to discuss each of them in detail now then we may probably talk during our whole life time..

Regards,

Lacrima

@ashka

"Völkermord und Blut das war in Vergangenheit, dass die Türken jetzt als „old“ bezeichnen."

Please EXPLAIN what you are trying to tell here.
Which 'Völkermord und Blut' ?

hey guys you got it all wrong.
I am not angry.
I just want to correct those few mistakes from lacrima.
Anyway I am against any war.

Beside, both Croatia and Turkey are joining EU now which means that they will probably be part of the one union(allthough Lacrima disagrees with it).

@ashka

You are starting to insult me and the Turkish folk. Take it easy. I know very well the history of my country. I read it from different resources. I read/speak 3 foreign languages fluently and I have the ability to investigate the history of my country. I did it as well. I am also proud of it. There is not even a small thing that I need to be ashamed of, today.

It is also interesting that Colonial European countries like France (what happened in Algeria ?), England (what happened in English colonies ?), Holland, Belgium, USA (what happened to American Indians ?) demand from Turkey to face its history. Guys, we face our history and we do not see there much more blood than in the history of other countries.. we had wars in our history so did other countries.. we conquered other lands in the bright days of the Empire, so did the other great Empires in the history. So, what is wrong with that ?

At those times, people were solving their problems by means of war. This was the case for every nation at those times. (Look at World War 1/2) Turkey even didnt join the WW2, although it was pushed by England and Germany very hardly to join in their sites. We stayed neutral. So are we the cruel guys of the history ? come on guys, please be objective and overcome your prejudices.

Please guys, before you blame a nation or group of people. Please do investigate well. I can provide you resources and books, if you dont know where to start.

Regards,

Lacrima

Versuche es bitte selbst raus zu finden,
viele sehr bekannte Deutsche haben darüber geschrieben. Franz Werfel, Johannes Lepsius, Hans-Ulrich Schulz, Prof. Hermann Goltz um nur einige zu nennen.
Als Vorschlag - lies mal Franz Werfel, es ist nie zu spät, eigene Geschichte zu wissen.

One additional comment: There is a big difference between the War and Genocide.
C’ne pas très difficile.
Gruss
ashka

@DvD

This is off-topic but I just read in some newspaper that EU postponed the negotiations with Croatia, just because some war-criminals were not delivered to justice ? is it really correct ?
Just wanted to hear the story from your side because I dont like to take the newspapers as the resource for such connflicts. I prefer to talk with the people from that country.

Regards,

Lacrima

@ashka
Looks like we have an Armenian friend here. Please read the following comments before blindly believing in everyhting you read. My advice to you, try to find out the reliability of the historic sources, before you blindly beleive in them. There is no so called "Genocide" in turkish history.

Der deutsche protestantische Pastor Dr. Johannes Lepsius selber ist kein
Augenzeuge der Vertreibung der Armenier, sondern hat während seines einen
Monat dauernden Aufenthalts in Istanbul im August 1915 beim US Botschafter
Henry Morgenthau "Dokumente" abgeschrieben, die von armenischen Übersetzern
und protestantisch-amerikanischen Missionaren stammen, was die
Glaubwürdigkeit und Objektivität dieser sehr mindert, und die Parteinahme
für die christlichen Armenier nahelegt. Henry Morgenthaus' Plan war es
wiederum, durch besonders grausame Darstellung der Vertreibung der Armenier
und entsprechende Propaganda durch sein Buch "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story"
die USA auf dir Seite der Alliierten in den Krieg zu ziehen.

Franz Werfels Roman "Die vierzig Tage des Musa Dagh" wiederum basiert auf
seine Studienreise nach Syrien im Jahre 1929, wo er und seine Frau verwaiste
armenische Kinder arbeitend in einer Fabrik gesehen und "Dokumente"
bekommen hat, die die Tötungsbefehle der Osmanischen Regierung, insbesondere
des Innenministers Talat Pascha, belegen sollten; diese Dokumente haben
sich später als plumpe Fälschungen des Armeniers Aram Andonian
herausgestellt. Ganz abgesehen davon, liegt es Romanen zu Grunde, dass sie
immer auch Fiktion sind und als wissenschaftliche Quelle gänzlich ungeeignet
sind.

yes lacrima it is correct

And this war crimainal is just a General.
In short after Yu went down serbs in all other countries started war. Serbs in Croatia took 1/3 of croatian land and held it from 91-95.

Actually they had it that long not because we were unable to defend our self but because we were not alowed to defend our self by EU and UN.

Against those decisions from EU and UN we set us free completely in year 1995 in war operation that lasted 2 days.
We had green light only from US and US logistik.
In that operation this Gotovina was commanding officer on some areas.

He is blamed because of 100-150 civil casualties on the serbian side during whole operation.
To clear it up: not 100-150 civils that HE killed during this operation but 100-150 civil serb victims killed by WHOLE croatian army during operation of freeing croatian teritory after 5 years of serbian occupation.

I find it completely stupid because those serbs that made war 5 years against Croatia they were not soldiers. They were normal people that wanted to take part of Croatia for Serbia.
They did not use uniforms.

So the question is how could croatian soldier see if he is dangerous or not. I even heard stories about some 80 year old ladies that killed some soldier from back with a hidden shutgun.

So on the end I would say 100-150 so called civil casualties are not really the reason why they want Gotovina. Reason is that EU and UN want to punish Croatia for taking action to free her teritory without agreement with EU and UN.

@Ashka,

It is good that you wrote all these. We are learning who is who here

Thanks for your comments and advisories about reading "viele sehr bekannte Deutsche".

If you believe Genocide or Völkermord took place, please go to any European court, and proof it with your evidences. You may want to file a case with Turkish Foreign Ministry and other 3rd parties to get answers for your questions.

Other than that, dream on.

@ DvD

you wrote...
Against those decisions from EU and UN we set us free completely in year 2005 in war operation that lasted 2 days.

I think you meant 1995?

@ Ashka

Ich finde es sehr gut, dass Du versuchst Deine Spachkenntnisse zu verbessern. Allerdings solltest Du Dir auch im klaren sein, dass Dein Deutsch schon sehr gut, aber nicht perfekt ist! So kann es leicht passieren, dass sich jemand von Dir angegriffen fühlt, obwohl Du das gar nicht beabsichtigt hast.

Die Geschichte der Nationen ist sehr komplex und nicht unbedingt für Sprachübungen geeignet.

Ich bin Deutscher und somit trage ich auch Verantwortung für den Tod von 6 Millionen Juden, zumindest die Verantwortung zu verhindern, dass dies bagatellisiert wird und dafür, dass so etwas nie wieder geschehen kann.

Ich würde aber nie über andere Nationen sprechen und deren Staatsangehörigen sagen, was sie zu tun oder zu lassen hätten.

You got it?

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

true

@DVD
ohoho, I see some trouble here...

"Serbs in Croatia took 1/3 of croatian land and held it from 91-95."

Just a few short question: to DVD:

How many serbs were living in Croatia at that time, for example 1991 ?
Can you please compare it to the number of serbs living in Croatia today ?
What is the percent of croatians in Croatia today, compared to other nationalities ?

Any clue ?

Next to that, the war was most stupid thing to make whoever started.

Pozdrav,
Vladimir

@vladimir
ohoho, I see some trouble here...

Just a few short question: to vladimir:

How many croats were living in Serbia at that time, for example 1991 ?
Can you please compare it to the number of croats living in Serbia today ?
What is the percent of serbs in Serbia today, compared to other nationalities ?

Any clue ?

Next to that, the war was most stupid thing to make whoever started.

Pozdrav,
DvD

@Detlef:

Very brave from your side to talk about WWII. I know is a very sensitive subject, specially for Germans and good example from your side to mention.

But in my opinion, politics and discussion between countries won´t leave us to any place. We can search thousends of books or articles that support one of other position, but most of times subjectivity and feelings affects the messages.

War and abuses causes a lot of pain to one side or another and all of us knows how this discussions usually ends.

I suggest to stop this nonsense before one of the members says anything that later will regret.

Croatians, Serbians, Turks and all, get together, take a beer and discuss your problems. All countries have things to say about theirself and about others, but sometimes the ice is thin and it can be broken.

@DVD

Just asked if you know the figures.
I don't have old figures, but if you insist I can find them. Just have met a lot of people that "emigrated" from Croatia at that time.

Croatia has almost 90% croatian population today, that should say enough.

Now:

Croatia:
Ethnic groups: Croat 89.6%, Serb 4.5%, Bosniak 0.5%, Hungarian 0.4%, Slovene 0.3%, Czech 0.2%, Roma 0.2%, Albanian 0.1%, Montenegrin 0.1%, others 4.1% (2001)

Refugees and internally displaced persons: IDPs: 12,600 (Croats and Serbs displaced in 1992-1995 war) (2004)

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/hr.html


Serbia and Montenegro:

Ethnic groups: Serb 62.6%, Albanian 16.5%, Montenegrin 5%, Hungarian 3.3%, other 12.6% (1991)

Refugees and internally displaced persons: refugees (country of origin): 99,170 (Bosnia), 188,656 (Croatia)
IDPs: 225,000 (mostly ethnic Serbs and Roma who fled Kosovo in 1999) (2004)

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/yi.html

Data from CIA, not wery fresh and can differ from the situation today, especialy because Kosovo is included in Serbia. But anyhow we can compare 90% national percentage in Croatia with about 70% in Serbia.

Olso notice that even before the war there were not a lot croatians in Serbia.


Pozdrav,
Vladimir

@ YO,

I agree 100%! So please stop this here or if you think you can not, leave your mail address to the other part, so you both can discuss it more privately.

This would be good for the forum and so it would be good for all of us!

Let me take the chance to talk about my plan to organize a 'Big GC Come Together' in Berlin. It is 100% sure, I will do it at the end of April or the beginning of May.

As soon as the details are safe, I will let you know, that you will have enough time to manage to take part.

I want to see all of you ;-)

Detlef

I'm done

I would like to come to Berlin whenever you propose.

But, definitely not to talk about politics, do not care a lot about politics. The sentence just came into my eye, and I wanted to tell another side of the story.

By the way, DVD I voted for your letter to BMI:

All the best,
Vladimir

those numbers tell nothing. You did not say how many serbs was in Serbia before war.

But % who left and who stayed are not important.
If someone wants to go from Croatia or from Serbia because they are shitty countries (which is true) that is no problem at all. Problem is if he can not stay or if he loses everything that he had.
Important is that Serbs are free to live in Cro if they want.
Do you know that Vrankovic (kosarkas) is serb.
Those who lost house can even get money from croatian government to build it again.
But lots of croats had been send away from Serbia and left their houses to serbs.

So in short everyone in Cro can get his rights according to law but in Serbia law does not protect croats from serbs.

Hallo Detlef,
du hast Recht, solche Themen sind nicht ganz für die Sprachverbesserung geeignet.
Aber trotzdem - du als Deutsche bzw. Deutschland allgemein öffentlich über Juden, über die Geschichte spricht. Ihr habt es anerkannt was geschah und damit vermeidet man die Widerholung, Warum denn die "Bridge between Europe und Asia" es nicht anerkennen kann? Sollte man so in EU rein kommen? Darf es noch mal passieren?
Viele hier wollen ja dauerhaft in Deutschland leben, die dürfen auch über die Geschichte etwas wissen.
Gruss,
ashka

@ashka
Stop it.. I told you my arguments and told you the reliability of the sources that you gave. You can not even answer to that and you are just repeating yourself. Why should I/a Nation accept smt which didnt happen ? please show your evidences and show indepedendent history experts under UN controlled courts which clearly proves that such thing happened. Our archieves are open for all international historians who want to investigate it. It was WAR, Armenians killed Turks, Turks killed Armenians.. During the war time, people kill each other.. "Genocide" is something else.. Do you know how many Turks were killed during WW1 by Armenian Troops ? no.. you dont.. then please stop it.. and do not use imaginary Novels as a proof for your claims.. that makes the whole story more ridiculous..

@Detlef
Can not we do it at the beginning/middle of June ? I have never been to Berlin and this looks like a good opportunity for me to organize a trip to Berlin but May does not look that suitable for me..

@DvD
Sorry, I didnt want to trigger a discussion regarding the Serbs and Croats.. was just curious regarding the news I heard..

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi all,

Today was our forum a little bit too hot. But I think it gives an important lesson: any war is cruel because thousend of people dye on them, many families are desmembered, the aftermath is even worse: not schools, not drink water, not electricity and many deeply rooted wrong ideas about the other.

All the wars bring us pain, desolation and tears. All the wars are whole lifes that go no where for no reasons.

How far can we go with rage at the heart? The answer is simple: it will take us much longer to understand the differences, it will take generations before we could tend bridge between even neighbourhoods. It will take us even decades before we can understand who is and what does that human being from the other side think about life.

Most of the time a war starts because we are unable to understand what the other wants.

We can not change pitfully some aspects of the human history, but we can and should learn about it to avoid the same mistakes.

I am happy to see that Meeting the world is a space to share ideas and facts. And I will be even happier if we use "meeting the world" to enjoy the fabulous treasures other cultures have.


Looking forward to meet you here in Berlin

Juliana