http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1217089_1_A,00.html

The doors are really not open.

You got to earn at least 80K in order to pass through the doors.

Is that still true?

Thats why i wanted to post that here.


Anybody with an idea/summary of probable scenarios about what will happen with GCers ?

Hi All,
I was watching ZDF last night regarding these immigration law news and they had an interview with Mr. Schröder.
He didnt talk about the details of the law but as I understood he accepted a lot of proposals that was done by right wing politicians.

What interesting was, ZDF showed an interview with a GC just after Mr. Schröder and ZDF news claimed that now this GC Holder shouldnt worry about his future because he will have similar rights in Germany as he may have in USA or UK.
That was ZDF's interpretation I guess.. we need to see the details.. even the Boss of that GC was interviewed and half of his employees were GCs.. He said, he is so happy because he can plan now long-term projects with his employees. ?? :-)

but I cant see in internet any direct reference to GCs from yesterday's discussion but
the law is supposed to be ready till June 30th so we may hear the details soon.

Keep your fingers crossed ! :-)

Lacrima

"Anybody with an idea/summary of probable scenarios about what will happen with GCers ?"

LOL my opinion is that politicians will not make a new regulation specifically for GCers; in several official letters which i have read it was clearly stated that GCers are not different from other foreigners and their rights are regulated by the same laws - thus will be regulated by the new immigration law. therefore it seems to me that everything depends on local authorities as well as on how one particular GC can defend himself *lol* ;)

No.. details are not clear now.. so everything
that can be said at the moment is just speculation.

Lacrima

Let's wait till 17.06 when we can see a draft

"because he will have similar rights in Germany as he may have in USA or UK."

lol in UK it is 60k EUR and 4 years

in USA it was 3 years of work for the same company if i am not mistaken? and no income boundary?

but it's irrelevant - it is not possible to complain anyway if the new law gives more possibilities than old regulations. if it works in other way though ... let's wait until the law gets accepted, it's true that it's pointless to speculate and make any moves until then. besides, we have seven months to complain afterwards, if we would like to

This is how I see it.
GCs shouldn't worry about conditions for getting Niederlassung-PR.
This conditions are for those that try now to get in Germany.
GCs are allready in, so they don't have to fullfil any condition.
Acctually only usuall conditions that are needed for Aufenhaltsverlängerung like job and so on.
Greencard Regelung sais that after Greencard people can get Verlängerung according to normal laws.
Normal law was AuslG that did not garantie Verlängerung and it will soon be Zuwandrungsgesetz. There is for GCs important what he sais about Visum Verlängerung and not becoming of new Visum.

Beacause of that lots off you was on the wrong track in interpreting this law.

Details are yet to see, but if there is Niederlassung for those that are coming, than there is bestimmt also for those here.
If not immidiately than after one Verlängerung.

I've watched yesterday the briefing after the Spitzentreffen and Mr. Schröder said that the new law will make possible to extend the Aufenthalt for high qualified people like engineers, computer scientists, scientists and so on.

So he hasn’t specified the GC word, but computer scientist is enough.
On the other side, I think that we can forget this 80k limit from the last draft. That draft is obsolete. There will be another one...hopefully a good one for us.

Fingers crossed.

mac

Hi,
Could someone please tell me, what would be the new law for those GCs who have salaray more then 80K. Is it possible to get the PR immediately or should that GC also wait 5 years?

I thought there is something related to Hockqualifiziert!!

Thanks and Regards,
suji!

There are 2 conditions for the Aufenhaltsverlängerung which concern existing GCs.
1. They would need to speak German when they go for their interview for the verlängerung (extension).
2. The 80K condition.
What the news is that the 2nd condition is only for new visa applicants. If so then it's ok otherwise it would be very difficult for existing employers to raise current salaries of GCs to 80K as that is a pretty high amount.
Regarding the 1st condition, it would be good if the new law requires existing GCs to give a particular exam & get a specific grade so that it becomes objective & not subjective to how the local authority feels about their knowledge of German.

Hi,

What does second law mean. Does it mean, if I Am new applicant of existing GC with 80K salary, can I get PR immediately.

regards,
suji

Do you think a existing GC with 80K salary can get this PR immediately.
If I am not wrong, in the last draft law, a existing GC who has stayed for 2.5 years will get PR immediately... does such provision still exist in new draft??

No, Permanent Residence is never on entry. One 1st gets a GC & then after a specific period gets a verlängerung which is unlimited. So for a new GC, no matter what the salary is, the person has to go thru the entire process.

For the existing GCs, the verlängerung will come into efect starting next year when the 1st GCs start to expire.

I am totally confused!

Does it mean, even if I have salary of 80K, and I spend 3 years here, I still need to finish my 5 years to get PR. Or there are special rules for 80K condition.

I would be glad, that I get this PR before 5 years.. And I want to explore if it is possible due to this 80K condition!

regards,
tinku

No, PR will be on entry, according to new law.
GC won't exist at all, but there will be also other non permanent Visas

So, whats going to happen to those Existing GCs?? and to those who have already 80K??

tinku those details nobody knows at the moment.
Wait few months.
But 80k you can allready forget.

What do you mean, "80K I can already forget" ??

With the new low we can get a PR if:

- having stayed for 5 years in Germany,
- having paid 60 months into the pension insurance fund,
- no criminal records for the last 3 years
- sufficient knowledge of the German language
- basic knowledge of the German judicial and social system.

You will take immediately a PR only if you have a salary greater than 80K or you are a scientist. So in most of cases we must wait 5 years to get a PR.

Hi Marox9
Thanks a lot!

I have salary of 80K. So I would like to take the PR asap. Because who knows what happens in future, and salary go down.

do, according to you, I can get PR immediately. Does it mean, I can go tomorrow to some officials or I should wait till some law is enforced etc...

thanks again. I was quiet depressed... and now I feel better!

I mean that it was never ever important how big your salary is when it comes to Verlängerung.
It certainly won't be now becausethis Gesetz wants to make it easier to come in D.
For new Visa that could be relevant but I doubt it.

Hmm..
Everyone has his own opinion here, I guess. But it would be nice, if someone could help me with the law.
thanks!

Question is can you aply for Visa if you have it.
It is possible that you must wait till Visa is over or allmost over.
Those details you will get when The law is completed.
Also than you will need lawyer to understand it.
So wait and do not worry.

Off course everyone thinks anders.
That is because there is no law at the moment.
Not even draft.
Draft is being done by SDP CDU and CSU

Can anybody tell me what it is 80K :-( ?
I hope it is not in Euro ...

Hmm..
I am worried.. because I have this salary only till next year. And also, I dont want to wait 5 years to get this PR.

I dont have a unlimited contract.. so who knows what is salary next year. You see my point?

if you come across something like that, please let me know..
regards!!

"do, according to you, I can get PR immediately. Does it mean, I can go tomorrow to some officials or I should wait till some law is enforced etc..."


Law will probably be over this year but it won't be used until 2005.
80 k is 80 000 € but that was old draft and for new Visa.

timk you should check does you Visa ends with job end.
If yes than you could ask for new after Vertrag is over or litle bit earlier, and if there is new law than you can try PR.
But anyway you should allready have new Vertrag in some Firma.

Any idea what other conditional strings would be attached with the upcoming PR.
e.g. Conditions like , Will this PR gets automatically cancelled in case I live outside germany for more then 6 months etc etc.

"GCs shouldn't worry about conditions for getting Niederlassung-PR. This conditions are for those that try now to get in Germany. GCs are allready in, so they don't have to fullfil any condition."

New law completely replaces AuslG as well as numerous other laws. Therefore you will not be able to get any other PR but Niederlassungserlaubnis, unless the laws are changed once more ;)

"Greencard Regelung sais that after Greencard people can get Verlängerung according to normal laws."

Nope. Greencard Regelung says that your work permits can not be prolonged over five years in total. The same thing was going to be written about residence permits, but there they did not use correct words so it's possible to understand them in several ways -> hole in the law. now the hole will be closed by very simple way: GC comes to change his residence permit because he has changed his employer before five years are over, officials write him in his residence permit that it is a last prolongation. i am not going to say that this is how it will be done, but please understand me correctly: it can be done, and Murphy's laws sometimes do work.

"Normal law was AuslG that did not garantie Verlängerung"

AuslG garanties prolongation in certain cases. Which case is yours, is defined by additional regulation. Here i would like to point out as well that a new immigration law does not replace a GC-regulation (IT-AAV, IT-ArgV), so it may be that new law does not make a situation better (for GCs), even makes it worse (see an answer on a previous question).

"There is for GCs important what he sais about Visum Verlängerung and not becoming of new Visum."

It is said that decision about prolongation of residence permit is based on the same principles as a decision about issue of new residence permit.

"Mr. Schröder said that the new law will make possible to extend the Aufenthalt for high qualified people like engineers, computer scientists, scientists and so on."

Sure. If they are needed on a labour market. And it was possible without new law as well *looks on old AAV as well as on old ASAV, which are being replaced by new law as well*

"Hi, Could someone please tell me, what would be the new law for those GCs who have salaray more then 80K. Is it possible to get the PR immediately or should that GC also wait 5 years?"

Unless the government makes a new regulation you will have to wait for 5 years regardless of size of your salary.


Of course, all these answers are based on a template of a new law and they of course can be incorrect, because a law may vary greatly from its template. let's wait at least until a draft is published; and i personally would forget the matter completely until it gets accepted, just because you do not participate in those meetings between politicians, therefore you can only guess what their intentions are, and unless you can prove your opinion about their intentions you can not change anything.

about suggestion to drink a glass of wine in the honour of Mr. Schroeder i would advice to wait until the new law gets accepted, gets read and some GCs will get an improvement of their status (PR) because of it. just in order to prevent yourself from saying "selbe Schuld" in ca. ten month *lol* ;)

Hi Thursday!

Last time. when the law was passed and finally scrapped.. there was a provision.
All Existing GCs.. who are here for more then 2.5 years will get PR automatically.

So, I guess. this was not changed.. as it was not a point of contention between CDU and SPD.
The only compromise that was needed were on 100 topics mainly related to integration and Point Based System. And finally, Security too!!

so, I hope, that that part of the law is still intact.

And I dont understand.. if a new person, who has salary of more than 80k can come and get the PR .. why cant the existing GCs with that back ground get the one.. Dont you think, it is bit stupid...

Can you tell me.. how can I find the template law or the draft version..

regards,
suji

Can Someone advice a Lawyer who looks after such cases as PR in NRW region.

Thanks!

Hey guys what is wrong with You.

Draft is yet to see. Old ones are in net.
Even lawyers do not know details of the law.
But it should mainly be OK for GCs because Verlängerung will be problemloss.

New law completely replaces AuslG as well as numerous other laws. Therefore you will not be able to get any other PR but Niederlassungserlaubnis, unless the laws are changed once more

who needs PR immidiately
it is unimportant if you get immidiately PR and it will probably be hard(for newcomers).
but it is enough to get Aufenthalt and after few years PR is there

if you get Visa extended for two years without PR you will automaticaly get PR after one year.
But it is most posible that GCs get PR after 5 years of GC or even before.

"Greencard Regelung sais that after Greencard people can get Verlängerung according to normal laws."

Nope. Greencard Regelung says that your work permits can not be prolonged over five years in total.

yope. normal laws are for everyone so also for GCs.
what you say menas only that Visum can as GC last maximal 5 years. after that for GCs are normal laws wichtig and in normal law that comes after 5 year you are safe


"Normal law was AuslG that did not garantie Verlängerung"

AuslG garanties prolongation in certain cases. Which case is yours, is defined by additional regulation. Here i would like to point out as well that a new immigration law does not replace a GC-regulation (IT-AAV, IT-ArgV), so it may be that new law does not make a situation better (for GCs), even makes it worse (see an answer on a previous question).

IMPOSIBLE.

"There is for GCs important what he sais about Visum Verlängerung and not becoming of new Visum."

It is said that decision about prolongation of residence permit is based on the same principles as a decision about issue of new residence permit.

NO
for others it is never same to get Visum first time and later Verlängerungs, and for GCs is the same

"Mr. Schröder said that the new law will make possible to extend the Aufenthalt for high qualified people like engineers, computer scientists, scientists and so on."

Sure. If they are needed on a labour market. And it was possible without new law as well *looks on old AAV as well as on old ASAV, which are being replaced by new law as well*

true but now that should really depend on facts, not on someone's mood



Of course, all these answers are based on a template of a new law and they of course can be incorrect, because a law may vary greatly from its template. let's wait at least until a draft is published;

again true


about suggestion to drink a glass of wine in the honour of Mr. Schroeder i would advice to wait until the new law gets accepted, gets read and some GCs will get an improvement of their status (PR) because of it. just in order to prevent yourself from saying "selbe Schuld" in ca. ten month *lol*


I will take bottle instead of glass.
Known things are sufficient in my case.

"Hi Thursday!

Last time. when the law was passed and finally scrapped.. there was a provision.
All Existing GCs.. who are here for more then 2.5 years will get PR automatically."

Hi!

lol it would require additional regulation, if politicians will make such a regulation, it's very nice. but why didn't they make it earlier, it was possible with existing laws as well? :o

"if a new person, who has salary of more than 80k can come and get the PR .. why cant the existing GCs with that back ground get the one.. Dont you think, it is bit stupid..."

not necesseraly, only if there will be a regulation for people of his profession and i guess it will appear only if those people are needed for a labour market *lol* ;)

"Even lawyers do not know details of the law."

do you know what it takes to become a lawyer in Germany? you can become one as well if you want, it is not necessary to finish a University for that.

Proof:
BRAO § 4 Zugang zum Beruf des Rechtsanwalts

Zur Rechtsanwaltschaft kann nur zugelassen werden, wer die Befähigung zum Richteramt nach dem Deutschen Richtergesetz erlangt hat oder die Eingliederungsvoraussetzungen nach dem Gesetz über die Tätigkeit europäischer Rechtsanwälte in Deutschland vom 9. März 2000 (BGBl. I S. 182) erfüllt oder die Eignungsprüfung nach diesem Gesetz bestanden hat.

"oder die Eignungsprüfung nach diesem Gesetz bestanden hat." - proved *lol*

to become a judge however you have to finish a university *lol* ;)

"who needs PR immidiately
it is unimportant if you get immidiately PR and it will probably be hard(for newcomers).
but it is enough to get Aufenthalt and after few years PR is there"

I was just telling that there will be no PR except "Niederlassungserlaubnis" when new law comes into force, nothing else *lol* ;)

"if you get Visa extended for two years without PR you will automaticaly get PR after one year."

Show me the place in a law where it is written please ;)

"yope. normal laws are for everyone so also for GCs.
what you say menas only that Visum can as GC last maximal 5 years. after that for GCs are normal laws wichtig and in normal law that comes after 5 year you are safe"

5.2 AAV - public interest (that is creation of new working places - remember how H. Schröder argumented GC-regulation? that every GC creates three new working places ) and extensive investigation of labour market. i did not read corresponding parts of new immigration law yet, but i heard some proposal of Union to check a labour market in whole Germany, not only locally; i wonder if this proposal will be a part of new law; but we will see, won't we?

"IMPOSIBLE."

what is impossible, could you please be more specific?

"NO
for others it is never same to get Visum first time and later Verlängerungs, and for GCs is the same"

§ 8 Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
(1) Auf die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis finden dieselben Vorschriften
Anwendung wie auf die Erteilung.

at least by the template of new law it is so *lol* ;)

"true but now that should really depend on facts, not on someone's mood"

lol it always depended mainly on facts. on someone's mood it depended only if a local official was really pissed off with someone and therefore made more work in order to find some unemployed native who could take a position instead. normally they are a bit lazy and therefore foreigners sometimes get permits even if there are unemployed natives who could take a position.

"if you get Visa extended for two years without PR you will automaticaly get PR after one year."

Show me the place in a law where it is written please

§ 286 SGB III (1) 1. Arbeitsberechtigung (only important thing to get PR)
a) nach 5 Jahre fur Bescheftigte
b) nach 6, alle andere


If you get 2 years after GC that means after 1 year you have 6 years and you fall into b) and get PR.

You have chances to fall in a) and get immidiately after 5 years PR but that is uncertain.
This month one guy did it after 5 years. Look at the Forum.

That is all according to the old Gesetz.
New can only be better.

lol you meant "prolonged for 2 years after 5 years as a GC"! i understood it "prolonged for 2 years, does not matter which residence permit is prolonged". well, now we do not have a misunderstanding here *lol*

DvD:


"§ 286 SGB III (1) 1. Arbeitsberechtigung (only important thing to get PR)
a) nach 5 Jahre fur Bescheftigte
b) nach 6, alle andere"


Sorry for interrupting you, but would you probably like to know, what thinks ABH about §286 I 1.b?

This is the answer from ABH for the “Antrag” after 3 years with Bewilligung and 3,5 years with GC (> 6 years) :
“Ihr Antrag auf Erteilung einer unbefristeten
Arbeitsberechtigung (fuer eine Taetigkeit jeder Art, bei jedem
Arbeitgeber im Bundesgebiet) wird abgelehnt.

Nach §284 Abs. 5 Drittes Sozialgesetzbuch (SGB III) darf eine
Arbeitsgenehmigung (Arbeitserlaubis oder Arbeitsberechtigung) nicht
erteilt werden, wenn die beantragte Taetigkeit durch eine
auslaenderrechtliche Auflage ausgeschlossen ist.
Die in Ihrem Fall zu beachtende auslaenderrechtliche Auflage koennen
Sie der Nebenbestimmung zu Ihrer Aufenthaltserlaubnis (siehe
Eintragung im Pass) entnehmen.

Sie duerfen danach nicht jede unselbstaendige Erwerbstaetigkeit,
sondern nur eine unselbstaendige Erwerbstaetigkeit gemaess Verordnung
ueber Aufenthaltserlaubnise fuer hochqualifizierte auslaendische
Fachkraefte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie der
(IT-AV) ausueben.

Fuer Antragsteller, dessen Arbeitsaufenthalt sich nach dieser
vorgenannten Rechtsverordnung richtet, ist als Hoechstgrenze eine
Beschaeftigungsdauer von hoechstens 5 Jahren zugelassen.
Dementsprechend ist gem. §6 der Verordnung ueber die
Arbeitsgenehmigung fuer hochqualifizierte auslaendische Fachkraefte
der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie (IT-ArGV) die
Erteilung einer Arbeitserlaubnis auch nur fuer laengstens 5 Jahre
moeglich.”

You all forgot about § 284 SGB III. And the fact somebody have got Arbeitsberechtigung with GC after 5 years it’s a big unreal luck indeed. :-)

"You all forgot about § 284 SGB III. And the fact somebody have got Arbeitsberechtigung with GC after 5 years it’s a big unreal luck indeed."

lol you are just not lucky because it's obvious that in your local employment office officials have studied laws too much instead of having fun in life *lol* show them this:

SGB 3 § 286 Arbeitsberechtigung

(3) Die Arbeitsberechtigung wird unbefristet und ohne betriebliche, berufliche und regionale Beschränkungen erteilt, soweit durch Rechtsverordnung nichts anderes bestimmt ist.

and ask them to issue you an "Arbeitsberechtigung" with "zeitliche und berufliche Beschränkungen", how it is required by IT-AAV and IT-ArGV (which are Rechtsverordnungen) - that is, limited to professions in IT and limited in time till your residence here as a GC reaches 5 years. Those limitations do not matter for you, because with or without them you will get your unlimited residence permit after 5 years as a GC (or after 8 years in total, depends on which date is closer) if new immigration law changes nothing.

I just saw the news at DW-TV, the article was very interesting... maybe is the light at the end of the tunnel? :-)
Now I'm curious to read the entire law... somebody know which are the new inmigration requirements for an IT professional? or when the law will be published?

Dear Trusday and all other law specialists here.

I came to germany in 1999 on Aufthen...bewillung visa (trainee).

I got my green card in 2000.so in total i have been staying here for more than 5 years now(66 months in total as of today)..

Can i apply for unlimited work permit.Will that allow me to stay after next year when my green card expires.

Please advice

Rahul

"Those limitations do not matter for you, because with or without them you will get your unlimited residence permit after 5 years as a GC (or after 8 years in total, depends on which date is closer) if new immigration law changes nothing."

6 years in total not 8,
but there is another problem for him.
He sais:
"This is the answer from ABH for the “Antrag” after 3 years with Bewilligung and 3,5 years with GC (> 6 years) : "


And the problem are first 3 years with Bewilligung.
These years are not counted for 5 and for 6 also.
Really mean from AHB is that thay did not inform you all.

There is post in Forum from guy who worked in D few years before geting GC. This month he got PR after 5 years in D alltogether. But he had Aufenthaltserlaubniss and not Aufenthaltsbewilligung like you. I supose you had Aufenthaltsbewilligung for Studium.

So what AHB sais is in some cases true but in some case not.
In fact they can do it, if they want, after 5 years. You have only 3,5 at the moment.

But after 6 years they MUST give you PR because when you are here 6 years with Aufenthaltserlaubniss than you are entitled to get PR even if you didn't work any second at all.
And we certainly can not have less rights from those that do not work.

But we have to reach 6 years. With old law that is allmost imposible. And what this new law should be piece of cake to get Verlängerung and than nobody can stop you.

"Can i apply for unlimited work permit.Will that allow me to stay after next year when my green card expires."

No, bewilligung doesn't count.

"Can i apply for unlimited work permit.Will that allow me to stay after next year when my green card expires."

Now you can not.
But after 5 years of GC you can aply.
If the law doesn't change it will be hard but posible to get PR.
If the new law comes it will be no problem.

"These years are not counted for 5 and for 6 also."

those years are not counted for 5, but are counted for 6 ;)

those years are not counted for 5, but are counted for 6


§ 286 SGB III
Arbeitsberechtigung

(1) Die Arbeitsberechtigung wird erteilt, wenn der Ausländer

1. eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis besitzt und

a) fünf Jahre rechtmäßig eine versicherungspflichtige Beschäftigung im Bundesgebiet ausgeübt hat oder

b) sich seit sechs Jahren im Bundesgebiet ununterbrochen aufhält und

Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis



no Aufenthaltsbewilligung mentioned

Hi Guys,

I have got one question and hope someone will be able to answer me:
I arrived here in may 2001 so I am working in the IT branch since exactly 3 years. My contract as well as my work permit are valid until may 2006 so all by all will be 5 years. I read that after 5 years I can only get the PR if I still have a job?? Is this true? I mean if it is true then how can i get a job and my work permit also expires.. I will get in something like: who's first, the chicken or the egg?? Any ideas for my possibilities??
Thanks!!
zash

"Re: Germany's doors are now open to foreign workers.
"These years are not counted for 5 and for 6 also."

those years are not counted for 5, but are counted for 6"

If that is true than he should allready have PR, which he doesn't have.

Problem is with explanation that they don't even mention §288 because he doesn't fulfill it (<5years). If he would fullfil it he would get PR as did some others.

"Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis
Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis



no Aufenthaltsbewilligung mentioned"

1. eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis (!!!) besitzt (!!!)

means now "besitzt", it is not said "die Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis seit sechs Jahren besitzt" or?

"I read that after 5 years I can only get the PR if I still have a job?? Is this true? I mean if it is true then how can i get a job and my work permit also expires.. I will get in something like: who's first, the chicken or the egg?? Any ideas for my possibilities??
Thanks!!
zash"

It's simple: you need to apply for unlimited work permit before your current work permit expires. do it in three months before expiration date ;)

""Re: Germany's doors are now open to foreign workers.
"These years are not counted for 5 and for 6 also."

those years are not counted for 5, but are counted for 6"

If that is true than he should allready have PR, which he doesn't have."

There is no absolute truth, everything depends on how you can defend yourself. If you do not claim your rights, nobody will plead you to claim them *lol* ;)

"I have got one question and hope someone will be able to answer me:
I arrived here in may 2001 so I am working in the IT branch since exactly 3 years. My contract as well as my work permit are valid until may 2006 so all by all will be 5 years. I read that after 5 years I can only get the PR if I still have a job?? Is this true? I mean if it is true then how can i get a job and my work permit also expires.. I will get in something like: who's first, the chicken or the egg?? Any ideas for my possibilities??"

God point zash.
True is that according to present law they don't have to give you PR or Verlängerung because you should be in D and working when you ask your PR. Since that is not the case you need first Verlängerung and than you can ask you PR, immidiately if you are lucky, or after one year certainly.
That Verlängerung they do not have to give you at all, at the moment, but they can. They do it rarely.

With the new law Verlängerung should be problemlos and that means PR also.

Hi trusday

"It's simple: you need to apply for unlimited work permit before your current work permit expires. do it in three months before expiration date"

The problem with this idea is that if I apply 3 months before my work permit expires, then I am not 5 years working. At that time I am 5 years minus 3 months, which is not enough to get the PR.

What DvD also said seems fine, but the question remains: In the new law, if we work 60 months (5 years) , can we apply for the PR without having a job at the moment. Are the 60 months enough for us to get the PR and also the unlimited work permit?

"means now "besitzt", it is not said "die Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis seit sechs Jahren besitzt" or?"


True but I think somewhere else in law sais that Bewilligung is not counted.

"It's simple: you need to apply for unlimited work permit before your current work permit expires. do it in three months before expiration date "

Nice plan. It could work with lots of luck.
You know what people say:
It is better to be born without the leg, than without the luck.
It is especialy for german law so.
But with new law we wouldn't need that much luck at all.
On the other hand, looks like we need lots of luck to see this new law soon enough.

So, you got to ask your self just one question:
Do I feel lucky?
Well do you punk?
Bang.

Extension of visas should not be a problem as long as u have a job.

In my case my work permit was valid till 2005 but visa was valid till jan 2004. It was a strange situation for me with every time I phone to the auslander office a new suggestion was given. something like chiken and egg situation.
Then finally my office made a corrsopondence on my behalf .
I was called to the auslander office and my visa was extended till 2010. Note that my work permit is still have to be renewed in year jan 2005.

So the laws are really strange.

"In my case my work permit was valid till 2005 but visa was valid till jan 2004. It was a strange situation for me with every time I phone to the auslander office a new suggestion was given. something like chiken and egg situation.
Then finally my office made a corrsopondence on my behalf .
I was called to the auslander office and my visa was extended till 2010. Note that my work permit is still have to be renewed in year jan 2005."

Could You please provide us with information what kind of visa and work permit you have?
It just doesn't sounds like GC.

I do not know under which sub-category this work-permit comes.
But certainly it is not a GC.

Here are the changes to the Immigration law which are proposed by the CDU/CSU.

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/fremdinhalte/aenderungen.html

So CDU/CSU offers something like this:
(in the link posted above)
----------------------------------------------------
Im Gegensatz zum Regierungsentwurf erhalten
Hochqualifizierte zunächst eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis. Um die
Attraktivität des Standorts Deutschland im internationalen
Wettbewerb um die besten Köpfe zu wahren, ist vorgesehen,
dass die Niederlassungserlaubnis zugesagt und unter der
Voraussetzung eines sich abzeichnenden Integrationserfolgs
- 20 -
und einer Sicherung des Lebensunterhalts nach einem Jahr
auf Antrag erteilt werden kann.
----------------------------------------------------

If I understand this correctly, CDU/CSU says "Government's
proposal stated to issue PR right after arrival of highly
qualified immigrant but we say, it can be issued after
one year of successful working and when conditions of
integration and financial self-support are met.

I think, even if they come up with a law smt like this
(close to CDU/CSU's propasals). GCs with (at least) one
year working time and good financial conditions(not unemployed)
can get PR immediately.

maybe this is too optimistic approach.. what you guys think ?

Regards

Lacrima

No . You should read what means a "Hochqualif..". We are not in this category.

"Hi trusday

"It's simple: you need to apply for unlimited work permit before your current work permit expires. do it in three months before expiration date"

The problem with this idea is that if I apply 3 months before my work permit expires, then I am not 5 years working. At that time I am 5 years minus 3 months, which is not enough to get the PR."

Attach to your application a garantie that your work contract will not be cancelled till the last day of validity of your work permit. It can be a letter from your employer, in which he states that as well as points out that the company wants to have you further and needs to have you further (here reasons should be provided, for example possibility of big financial losses if the company has to cancel a working relationship with you due to a fact that you do not have a valid work permit). your chief knows how to write such a letter. also, in application you should state that you request a permanent work permit from the last day of validity of your temporary work permit ;)

"True but I think somewhere else in law sais that Bewilligung is not counted."

Nope. It is said that Bewilligung i.d.R. can not be changed to Erlaubnis, this was considered to be enough *lol*

"I think, even if they come up with a law smt like this
(close to CDU/CSU's propasals). GCs with (at least) one
year working time and good financial conditions(not unemployed)
can get PR immediately.

maybe this is too optimistic approach.. what you guys think ?"

Do not forget that GCs are already here, on the far worse conditions than that, and they are not leaving. why to change anything?

i guess it will be applied only to new immigrants, who right now think which country to choose. unless GCs will start leaving the country, of course

"Do not forget that GCs are already here, on the far worse conditions than that,
and they are not leaving. why to change anything?"

Because if new law gives better conditions for newcomers and it explicitly states
that these are not applicable for those who are already in Germany(even they have
similar qualifications as the newcomers) then this creates an
unfair situation for the people who are already in the country.

On the other hand, people who are already in country and have been working for
a while, tend to integrate better than the newcomers.

If law-makers are not able to see these facts then bad luck for us.. we may
consider to file a lawsuit to the constitutional court complaining about
the unfairness of the law. :-)


Lacrima

Excellent summary Lacrima!

"Because if new law gives better conditions for newcomers and it explicitly states
that these are not applicable for those who are already in Germany(even they have similar qualifications as the newcomers) then this creates an unfair situation for the people who are already in the country."

lakrima do not be komisch. That can not hapennned. It was allways easier to stay than to come and that won't and can not change.

But supose that happened (which is imposible) you can allways be treated as newcomer if you want. Theoreticly speaking you can leave and come back as newcomer.

But I think you'll get PR anyway.

Hi DvD
I am not being "komisch" . I am just trying to answer Trusday's ridiculous comments.

He likes to play the role of "Devil's Advocate". He has good reasoning capabilities but wrong assumptions taking him to wrong conclusions..
*lol* and he needs to be corrected quite often..

anyway..

"But supose that happened (which is imposible) you can allways be treated as newcomer if you want. Theoreticly speaking you can leave and come back as newcomer."

But explicit rights for newcomers are limited to a certain groups of people (some profession for example)? i thought it was mentioned in the template of new law that PR from the start can be given only to those for whom there exists an additional regulation? what makes you think that such regulation will be made for IT-specialists when current statistic shows that a number of unemployed IT-specialists is bigger than a number of offered positions on a labour market?

"He likes to play the role of "Devil's Advocate"."

I have to. The life has not given me another possibility *lol* ;)

"He has good reasoning capabilities but wrong assumptions taking him to wrong conclusions..
*lol* and he needs to be corrected quite often.."

Well currently it's not possible to say whether my or your assumptions are right or wrong, just because they are just speculations about what other people (politicians, etc.) will do. Therefore we have to wait until the time shows us which assumptions were right, if any ;)

tell me please: would you believe politicians if ALL officials during last couple of years have tried to persuade you that you have to go back from where you came, and not only tried to persuade you but tried to make it happen compulsory as well? i do not think you would ;)