Hi Dears,

)I have been working from the last 3 years.
)This company has around 13 people.
)My employer is not telling any reason just he said in kündigung "that you have now finished your work and we need not you anymore".As i have idea due to less orders of software he is doing so or he is thinking i am expensive.
)Fairly saying there is no reason as i know on which he can take such a big step.

Answer Please....

I am asian, and i have married just some weeks before this kündigung into denmark during my holidays there.But due to waiting for traditional functions i could not registered her my self nearest Rathhaus with me.Its the 3rd day of kündigung should i soon transfer my visa from Auslander behorde and register my self ?or any time i can go to Auslander behorde with my wife to get visa on her bases ?Is it effect ?I am affraid if i go after my kündigung period or during this period with my wife to Auslanderbehorde they say go to your home country for visa ?My visa is untill march-2006.my kündigung period is 1st march-2003 and its not stated on visa that i must work for this company.

Some more that my Wife has german nationality whats up under upper conditions.

One more question should i work untill the end date of kündigung or can i stop working and go out for searching work from the day i got kündigung.

hi there
You gotta take it step by step,looks like you're inviting stress, when the situation can be managed.
1)As asked by mark before, have you got clarification regarding 'Abfindung', thats compensation?In your situation you should get around lets say minimum 4-5 months salary.
2)For the time being, keep the traditional functions at bay, and concentrate on sozialamt.Marraiges in Denmark are recognized by the German authorities, so go there with your papers.I have heard from others the above,thats why i am saying it to you.
3)Even in the state of being arbeitlos, you will be issued a 1 year visa, basing on your marraige to a german citizen.This will continue for three years, the one year visa gettin renewed every year.After three years, you're a son of germany ;)).All these visas would be issued in Germany and you dont have to go to your home country.
So dont worry too much and get the marraige certified in Germany first.Rest any lawyer can take care of.
all the best
GnR

Lot of regards for you GNR if anybody can also give me some comments on this situations.

If you are married to a German citizen, you really should not worry about anything further. Get the marriage registered (which usually takes some minutes), and I guess you don´t have futher problems. You don´t have to go back to your home country to try that process from there, but to be on the safe side, register your marriage while you still have the job..

Cheers

Billy

Hi KKH,

Don`t worry. As the others have already said, you can stay in Germany. That`s a fact.

First you should go to the arbeitsamt in order to "arbeitslos melden". Don`t forget to tell them that you are married (since you will get a little more arbeitslosengeld). Only yesterday there was a direction in the AAs, which says, that GC have to "arbeitslos melden" immediately after getting the kündigung.

Then you have to go to the standesamt/ausländerbehörde to register the marriage. You will get a one year visa, after that a two year visa and then a "unbefristete aufenthaltsgenehmigung" - you wll be a son of Germany, as GnR said...

But don`t leave your job within your kündigungsfrist. You have to observe the Frist. If you`ll find a job in that time, you could arrange an immediate annulment of your contract ("Auflösungsvertrag")

Regards

jens

Hi KKH,

from what you wrote it seems likely that the termination of your employment contract is legitimate, but only a lawyer will be able to make an individual assessment on the basis of all facts (Letter of termination, contract of employment).

If I understand you correctly, you do agree with your employer that there is too little or no further work to be carried out in order to keep everyone employed (or the company does not want to fund such work because it is selling less goods or services than before).

However you feel the termination is unjustified on the basis of 'fairness'. Unfortunately there is no obligation for employers to keep all their staff at times when the business is not going well. The company does not have to make losses either in order to be allowed to make staff redundant.

However there are social issues which come into effect when the employer has to decide which member of staff to let go. If you had children, if you were old or if you were disabled the employer would have to consider making a younger, independent and more flexible employee redundant instead.

Apart from considering legal or moral issues, there is also a 'commercial' view on the situation:

It is beneficial for you to part on good terms, receive a decent Arbeitszeugnis and good references, as the next prospective employer may consider good references as a factor for hiring you.

Good luck

Marc

Hi.

Do not let go off Ur rights/benefits just to have a good reference. If U r being illegally asked to leave, then it is ur right to get appropiate compensation.. often known as severance pay..

I havent seen references having any importance for getting the next job.. If U r good and can do the job well, the new employer wont really care about any reference.. this is the way I have seen things happening in Germany..

I spoke to a lawyer and he told me that in Germany, a employer can fire U on these 3 grounds.. pls understand them carefully...

1. If U have been sick for more than 4-5 weeks per year for 2-or- 3 consecutive years. I am not sure about these numbers, but somewhere around them.

2. If U have done something wrong, like slapping Ur employer, stealing etc etc.. means some forbidden crime..

3. Economic reasons.. pretty much ur case.. even in that case there are 3 factors which decide who can be fired and who cannot..

3.A. How old have U been working with the company. So if U have been working for 3 years in this company, then they cant fire U and keep someone who has just been with the company since past 2 years.. U have been older in this company and so U r in a better position to stay..

3.B. How old r u. The older U r, the more chances U have to stay in the company.

3.C. Ur family status. Married or single. With children or without children.

Performance is not a basis to fire people in Germany.. if there is some skills Ur employer feels U should be having, then just the fact that U r trying Ur best to acquire those skills is more than enuff for U to stay in Ur job. the employer cant fire U if U dont have some skills but U r trying ur best to acquire those skills.. means there should be efforts frm ur side...

All this information is coming from an experienced and very professional labor lawyer, who is handling the entire workers council in my company..

hope this helps.
Nitin

Hi Nitin,

references are important because good references may open the door for *better* jobs in the future, while without references one may just be able to get *some* job.

I'd like to add to some of the points you stated re. employment law and termination.

"2. If U have done something wrong, like slapping Ur employer, stealing etc etc.. means some forbidden crime.. "

The misconduct does not necessarily have to be as severe as you stated. For example, if an employee shows up late for work (where no flexitime exists) or surfs the Internet, makes private phone calls, does not follow their supervisors instructions etc. all these reasons may lead to termination of the contract, providing there have been formal warnings ("Abmahnung") before and the employee continues the same misconduct after the formal warning.

"3. Economic reasons.. pretty much ur case.. even in that case there are 3 factors which decide who can be fired and who cannot.. "

Here you mentioned time at the company, age and family status (generally "Unterhaltsverpflichtungen" are relevant, which could also be for a divorced ex-wive). While you're right in that all these factors will have to be taken into account, your statement 3.A. is wrong.

It is up to the employer to take all the factors into accont and come to a reasonable (!) decision. This does not always mean the person who has last recently been hired needs to go first. They may be preferred to stay because of other social issues (e.g. age or dependents) or because that person has skills which are exceptionally valueable to the company.

Regards

Marc

Hi Marc.

Absolutely correct about references.. but then again do not let go off ur rights for a *better* job, because this *better* job might also have employer like Ur current one, who would wanna take advantage of ones vunlerable situation.. I have been lucky since I was taken into a very good job by one of the best employers in German market without even asking for any references... but then everyone is not lucky as me

thanks Marc for putting some more reasons which could lead to be fired.. like being late in office etc etc.. it really helps everyone in being careful.. could U also pls put down a list of these kinda possible reasons ? just so that we can be more careful

Marc>> 'Here you mentioned time at the company, age and family status (generally "Unterhaltsverpflichtungen" are relevant, which could also be for a divorced ex-wive). While you're right in that all these factors will have to be taken into account, your statement 3.A. is wrong.

It is up to the employer to take all the factors into accont and come to a reasonable (!) decision. This does not always mean the person who has last recently been hired needs to go first. They may be preferred to stay because of other social issues (e.g. age or dependents) or because that person has skills which are exceptionally valueable to the company.'<<Marc

I dont see Ur point Marc.. in first paragraph U r saying that I am right in my statement but then U r saying that point 3.A is wrong.... did U happen to read my statement that

Nitin>>'3. Economic reasons.. pretty much ur case.. even in that case there are 3 factors which decide who can be fired and who cannot.. '<<Nitin,

meaning that all these factors are taken into consideration before firing someone. again.. meaning that ALL THESE FACTORS ARE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION, and not just 3.A or not just 3.B or not just 3.B...

and U Urself said that Marc>>'It is up to the employer to take all the factors into accont and come to a reasonable (!) decision'<<Marc

and Marc>>''Here you mentioned TIME AT THE COMPANY, age and family status (generally "Unterhaltsverpflichtungen" are relevant'<<Marc

thanks for all Ur inputs, we benefit sooo much from Germans like U.
Nitin Malhotra

If the company needs to downsize ("rightsize" may be the preferable jargon), it has every right to lay off someone who is on a work permit. This rule applies to all the countries, not just Germany. I dont think it needs to give a legal or valid reason.

Absolutely right Billy.

But employer cant just ask anyone to leave..

there are rules for who goes out first and who goes later or who cannot be asked to leave...

and that is exactly what we r discussing..

enjoy GreenCard'ing
Nitin Malhotra

Thats great to know..I have not come across this issue before, I must confess! It would be personally interesting for me to learn about such rights an employee on a work-permit may have.

Billy.

These rights are German laws applicable to work-permit/green-card-holders as well..

other countries like US, UK also have labor laws which are also applicable to everyone, not just their nationals but to work permit holders as well..

Nitin Malhotra

Hi Dear Friends,

Can anybody tell me that after the notice of kündigung how much time i have to do anything against that kündigung i mean to say to put the case into court.
Furthermore if i have some troubles regarding my salary or finance with this company untill how much time i can put the case into court after kündigung.

@KKH

You have 3 weeks after receiving notice. Did you meet a lawyer yet?

@Nitin

"So if U have been working for 3 years in this company, then they cant fire U and keep someone who has just been with the company since past 2 years.. U have been older in this company and so U r in a better position to stay.. "

The point is, in this example you're following the law to the letter, as opposed to understanding its intention. The idea and practice of the Kündigungsschutzgesetz is not to define an exact order for making staff redundant but to avoid "Soziale Härte", which means for example to avoid making the single earner of a family redundant rather than one partner of a double-income-no-kids relationship. It is to avoid making someone who is over 40 or even 50 redundant, when there is a much younger employee with the same skills, because the older person will find it (next to) impossible to get any qualified work ever again.

In this context, it's largely irrelevant whether an employee is with the company for two or three years. Both will be considered as a short time. If there was one employee with the company for two years, and another for 10 years that would be a reason to base a decision on.

Marc

I have some salary troubles too with my employer in which employer has to pay me more this year, you please tell me would it be possible to put this case into court after 3 weeks too ?Because i am running here and there but i need exact time boundries to put the case into court.

Hi Marc.

Nitin>>"So if U have been working for 3 years in this company, then they cant fire U and keep someone who has just been with the company since past 2 years.. U have been older in this company and so U r in a better position to stay.. "<<Nitin

was just an example to explain the underlining principle that number of years worked in a company along with social status, the point I made earlier, is a major factor in deciding who goes out and remains..

let me give everyone a small example in trying to explain the lawyers point more precisely. this is also for U Marc.. may be this one helps U in understanding Ur german law some more.. and not following the law of the letter completely..

if there are 2 employees with same social status, same skills, everything same... but employee A. having worked with the company for 5 years and employee B. having worked with the company for 2 years, then in the light of economic reasons, accordingly to the law, Employee B. would be the one who should go out first and not employee A. who has spend more time with the company..

remember that both of them have the same social status..

in order to be more social, the laws takes into consideration all these factors before deciding the final verdict..

Marc, arent U gonna help us Green Carders by telling us more reasons of getting fired ? like private fone calls, private internet surfing etc etc. just like U did previously..

have a grt week
Nitin

Dear Friends,

Something surprising!! but unfortunately true...thus I
thought to bring this to your notice. May be you people can be of help to raise a voice onbehalf of the minorities.

This is regarding no-benifit of paying "Arbeitlosvers" for as long as 5 years from a non-greencard and non-EU employees (minorities), working in Universities. One of my friend Dr. Abdul Ahad, University of Freiburg has gone through this problem recently. Upon enquiry in the university, turned out that this is a general problem of Minorities.

He was employed in the university in normal procedure
in a normal BAT IIa salary. He has paid all insurences, including the Arbeitlosvers, for more than 4 years. He has a VISA until the end of this year. He knew that his job is coming to an end by last December, 2003. However, since he has valid visa (aufenthhalterlaubnis) until December 2004 and he has paid so much to the Arbeitlosversh, he thought he can get the arbeitlos geld for some time and in the meantime can find another job in University. However,
his application for arbeitlos benifit has been rejected by Arbeitsamt. The point is that, the non-EU citigens, are forced to pay Arbeitlos but in return are not entitled to get any benifit. He tried to consult in the university and comes to know that this is a general strategy of the employment.

There is no choice left. One need to pay the Arbeitlosvers for no benifit and reason. Furthermore, this versichrung-beitrag is non-refundable in any circumstances (the university says, when asked for refund).

The question however remains: why should persons like
him should pay hard-earning money to a insurence system for no reason and benifit.


Hope you people will come up with a suggestion and
solution to this possible violation of human rights in
german employment system.


Please feel free to contact me incase one need any
more informations or directly with Dr. Abdul Ahad in e
mail

abdul.ahad@biologie.uni-freiburg.de


Looking forward to hear an early reply


Best regards

Sincrely


Kishore