For the Guys who want to go back to their country after their Greencard expires.. some information worth sharing...

Went to the Pension office (BFA) early this morning to enquire about the rules for Greencard holders.


1. You can only get your pension back....the part that u paid...if u pay 59 Months. If u happen to pay 60 mths (regular greencard employment period) then u will not get anything and have to wait till the age of 65 to get regular pension.

2. You dont pay any tax on the pension refund amount (atleast till now)...maybe u will pay it in your home country.....Good News

3. You will not get back this money...if after 59 mths working in germany....u decide to work somewhere else in EU, Switzerland....bad news

4. U have to apply for the refund...after u return to your home country and wait for 2 years.

6. U can stay in germany....after ur five years are over...as long as you are not working and paying in to Pension fund.

7. You will not get the information about how much u paid in the fund...till u complete 5 years...u will have to look on your tax card.

8. If u were Arbeitslos....and getting Arbeitslosengeld..then Arbeitsamt was paying in to your Pension fund.

the lady calculated...what pension I would get if I work for 5 years in germany..and if I dont take a refund...at the age of 65 I would get.... 200 Euros.

Remember Guys 59 Months...

Cheers,
Cape

all the above is true for a German citizen therefore I am not optimistic about your statements here as far as GC is concerned . lets wait for more input! there were lots of links earlier about GC's getting back their pension money. If at all your statements are true then there should be a change in GC law (lol not sure if it exists) because of quick German reforms and so we GC's also fall in this category :-(

hi Cape,

i appreciate your efforts to let others know what you have learnt from the BFA officials. I am afraid, that certain points are not true. I dont blame you for this.. You know with the language problems.. But the imp issue is to correct the facts..


7. You will not get the information about how much u paid in the fund...till u complete 5 years...u will have to look on your tax card.

This is absolutely false. I have so far got it atleat 10 times. you can call them to mail it to you at your home or you simply order it online using your versicherungs number..

http://www.bfa.de/kontoinformation/start.jsp here is the link and you enter your number there,, and you get it with in some days you get a post with your versicherung verlauf.


I am not sure where i this, but it says that we can withdraw our contribution even after 60 months. But i am not 100% sure about it..

If all I get after 65 years is just 200 Euro, then i would say I would happyly take my contributions after 2 years waiting period.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine told me that Swiss will give back the complete contributions within a month or two.. Seems they are not at all greedy as their german counterparts..

Cheers,

Hello,

"1. You can only get your pension back....the part that u paid...if u pay 59 Months. If u happen to pay 60 mths (regular greencard employment period) then u will not get anything and have to wait till the age of 65 to get regular pension."

I was also at the bfa office a couple of weeks back specifically to check about this point. This is true only if you belong to the list of countries that has an agreement regarding pension with Germany. If you do not you can choose between 2 options i.e either to recieve it as lumpsum or get it as pension when you turn 65.

regards

If I understood you guys correctly, one can get back your pension contribution even after making such payment for more than 60 months after the waiting period of 2 years provided that you are not from one of the following countries:

Australien
Bosnien-Herzegowina
Bulgarien
Chile
China (Entsendeabkommen).
Israel
Japan
Kanada und Quebec
Republik Korea
Kroatien
Marokko
Mazedonien
Serbien und Montenegro
Tunesien
Türkei
USA

Correct me if I am wrong.

sun

Yes,CMR you are correct.

Even I have also received letter from Bfa on request. But this is not important since we can check our payslips everymonth that how much we are paying for our pension. Even year end total contribution from our end...

I definitely take total amount instead of waiting for 200€ everymonth!!!

VSK

EU countries are also contracted but it is also important to find out what that contract states for each foreign country

Well I am a Greencard holder from India working in munich...and wanted to be sure about the laws thats why I went and found out.

I had an appointment with a lady there...who promptly answered all the things which I wrote.

I have no language problems...becoz I am fluent in German and I spoke to the lady in german

I also checked out their broschures online..which contains information about this. (www.bfa.de - look uder Publikationen/ Broschüren/ International )

She definitely said that this is true that we dont get back the money if we pay for 60 mths or more...then we automatically become eligible for German Pension.
It could be however, that different people at bfa give different info.

Also she told me that I would not get any print out before 5 years...but she gave me a print out which has the Versicherungsverlauf...which has only my gross yearly salary on it and not the amt that I have paid in to pension fund.

Maybe now I will try to ask for it online...thanks for the link cmreddy.

Cheers,
Cape

Hi Cape,
This is a bit worrying that different people at bfa are giving different answers to us. I came to know about a person who went back since he did not want to wait till he is 65 to get his pension money. That is why I went to bfa to check this out.
Does anybody inf the formum know about this for sure?

Hi Cape,

i must admit that i am partially true / wrong regarding the information which BFA sends to us. I have a copy always with me in my bag.. I had some issues and need to clarify them and also consolidate the pensions which were booked under different accounts(all mine ofcourse)..

Well they do give you the Gross amount for which i have paid pensions.. May be you can simple multply it by 9.75 % till 2001 or 2002 I dont remember exactly.. but now the going rate is 9.875 %. So all in all you take one number for all as it doesnt make much difference in 0.1 %..

Cheers,

What about...

Lets suppose that I request my pension after the 59 month and go home. Then, after 2 years I get the money back. Should it be a problem to come agein to Germany or to find a job in any other EU country?

P.

If I understood right!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Entitlements of resettlers

Persons who moved to the Federal Republic of Germany as resettlers or late resettlers as defined in the Federal Law on Expelled Persons have entitlements according to the national German Law on the Crediting of Periods Completed Outside the Federal Territory. Accordingly, their contribution and employment periods completed in their countries of origin and German contribution periods are treated equally. For pension calculation tabular earnings are allocated to the periods treated equally; tabular earnings which would have been gained by a comparable insured person in the Federal Republic of Germany. However, these tabular earnings are reduced by 40%. Furthermore, for persons who moved to the Federal Republic of Germany after 06.05.1996 the share of the pension based on periods according to the Law on the Crediting of Periods Completed Outside the Federal Territory is limited to a maximum amount.

We would suggest that before the realization of the risk you have your periods according to the Law on the Crediting of Periods Completed Outside the Federal Territory registered by the competent pension insurance institution for the securing of evidence.

For details please refer to the BfA-Information No. 8a Leistungen nach dem Fremdrentengesetz (Benefits According to the Law on the Crediting of Periods Completed Outside the Federal Territory).
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hi nreddy, this seems to be only for resettlers (aussiedler), german minorities (or descendants) who lived in russia and other countries, or were expelled, who now como to live in germany and want to "transfer" their pensions.

If you claim your pension after two years, you will get your money and probably your record will be "deleted". You can of course work again in germany, or another EU country, but will begin from zero.

yep you are right :-)

dear all,

reecntly i too have been following up on the discussion abt the pension funds.
cape - thanx for ur elaborate posts in this regards
sun - ur post is an eye-opener for me

so between what i know and what i have read, i have a BIG question. my knowledge coincides with what cape has written - now i wanna know (if anyone of u is aware) whether Indian GC holders will be able to work here for more than 60 months and then 2 yrs after leaving Germany, they will get back their share of the RV.

this question has a impact on many many GC holders here ... so would really appreciate if someone could answer.

many thanx,
ashish

In my experience, one of my friend left germany in 2003 (he lived here less than 60 months) and he got his pension back within two years. He is an australian citizen based in Singapore.

I am also leaving the country in June, and i will let you all know if i get my pension back within two years or as soon as i receive it. :-)

Regards, Asian

Hi guyz
i would like to propose why not we all GC do a joint effort and take a service from some VPMK or similar lawyer and clearify this procedure from BFA. As it seems like BFA is very confused and some time they dont give proper info keeping in mind that countries who have agreement with germany or not , also cases of more then and less then of 60 month.

Or Does any one know a concrete answer already ?

As for some ppl this is very serious matter , like some ppl dont want to stay in germany if they cannot get this after working more then 60 month.

Thanks guyz for sharing such a nice information.

regards
Tali

yes, i do agree that it is a critical issue and will decide if people will stay here or not based on the concrete information.

what remains a point to be REALL sure abt is: what is the actual clause of the BfA, based on which Indians who have contributed more than 60 months of pension funds, while working on GC, are able to claim a lumpsum payment after leaving Germany (and dont have to wait for a ripe old age to get their rightful monies back)?

is anyone aware of it concretely? can u please be kind enough to post the legal clause number and legal document name which can be concretely quoted?

this would go forth and allay a lot of fears that are plaguing GC holders ...

the idea suggested of making a concentrated/ joint effort in clarifying this is also a good one. i would second it ... can someone based in Berlin take up the cause? mebbe the moderators? or Mr. Detlef?

Hi ashishthakur,

nice picture ;-)

Well, as far as I know, these 60 month are the minimum requirement to get 'Rente' - pension. As far as a foreigner leaves Germany after 59 month, there is no problem, he can get back what he paid into the 'Renten Account'.

As soon as he or she has 60 month or more, it will be more complecated, because now he got the right to get a 'Rente' as soon as he reaches the 'Rentenalter', at the moment 65 years.

But there are many exceptions, variing from the nationalities and there are also aur 'famous Ermessensspielraum' of the officers.

With other words, it is not easy to give an answer to this question.

But I will call the BFA (Bundesversicherungsanstalt für Angestellte) next week and ask for this.

I can not do this right now, because I have so much work :-(

Viele Grüße
Detlef

Hello Mr. Detlef,

Thanks for the offer to call the BfA and getting a clarification on this actual position for the Indians.

Its absolutely no problem from my side with waiting for a clarification, as I still have some time left on my visa.

But I really appreciate your efforts. Many thanks in advance.

With best regards,
Ashish

Hi all

Nice efforts.

regards

Tali

Does anybody know where to get the form to collect the pension money. Can we take the form alongwith us before leaving Germany. How should we collect the Tax refund money?

Hi
A friend is planning to leave Germany and going to Australia. He asked me if he can get his sallary back after working more then 60 month in Germany.
So just to add in question , if someone from india/pakistan/bangladesh move to Canada or Australia , can he claim also his pansion back from germany ?
the list of countries (which someone posted once) is for the ppl of origin or it was list of countries if someone move , then he cannot have his pansion.
I m lost on this

regards
Tali

hi aigner,

here you can get all forms pertaining to your Rente claim:

http://www.bfa.de/nn_8968/de/Inhalt/Formulare/Rente/Alle_20Rentenvordrucke.html

You should give your bank account details therein.

Cheers

The BfA has released a broschure which should give you an answer to all your questions:
http://www.bfa.de/nn_1430/de/Inhalt/Publikationen/Brosch_C3_BCren/International/BfA-Information_20Nr._2026,property=publicationFile.pdf

Your irritation about the rules are caused by nationalty. Foreigners are grouped in 3 categories:
1. Foreignes coming from not contracted countries
2. Citizen from the EWR (Europäischer Wirtschaftsraum = EU, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) and Switzerland
3. Citizen from a contractual contry ( Australia, Bosnia-Herzegowina, Bulgaria, Chile, China, Israel, Japan, Canada, Korea, Croatia, Marocco, Mazedonia, Serbia-Montenegro, Tunesia, Turkey, US)

The main rule is, as written several times here on the forums, that one can claim for a refund only when you haven't been paid contributions to the German social pension fund and only after 2 years leaving Germany. For more detailes you should really read the broschure, cause there are a lot of exceptions and this and that.

Thanks limajr
Its pitty that my German language is not good to understand this brochuer. Can someone answer this question if he can find info in this.
What will be the case , if some one from non-contracted country (orgin from pakistan or india) and moved to another job to Australia after working 60+ month in Germany. Can he claim his pension after two year in Australia ? Or he has to claim his insurance from his home country even he is living in Australia ?

Thanks

Regards

Tali

Hello All

Though all the information provided here is interesting, I still have some open questions. Could any one know how to apply for this pension fund refund. Where we have to apply. Can we apply before leaving Germany or We have to apply in German embassy in India..Could any one please elaborate.

Thanks
Bijay

Hi *,

Do somebody know what is the situation for the countries, entering into EU soon?

A friend of mine went to BFA (Freiburg) the last week to ask for details. He was told, that for people, comming from the new EU members will be inpossible to get their pension contributions back - they should wait for "Rente" until the appropriate age.

What about Poland? Do somebody know more details?

Best regards,
Plamen

hi aigner,

here you can get all forms pertaining to your Rente claim:

http://www.bfa.de/...0Rentenvordrucke.html

You should give your bank account details therein.

Cheers


dk

hi deepak,

which form would it be precisely? i am guessing R230 is the correct form. if i am wrong please do let me know which is the correct form(s) to take a note of ...

thanks,
ashish

Hi Plamen,
check this
http://www.bfa.de/nn_5910/de/Inhalt/Publikationen/Brosch_C3_BCren/International/Zwischenstaatl._20Regel._20Bulgarien_20_2836_29,property=publicationFile.pdf
(Zwischenstaatliche Regelungen mit Bulgarien)
http://www.bfa.de/nn_5910/de/Inhalt/Formulare/International/A_206307.html__nnn=true
(Antrag auf Versichertenrente aus der bulgarischen Rentenversicherung (deutsch, bulgarisch))

Grüsse,
Peter

Hi, Jumbo (Peter),

Thank you for the useful links.

But, I don't want to wait for 65! I want to get my money back after the 59-th month. I don't beleive, that I'll be alive at the age of 65 - I smoke too much

Up to now it was possible, that one can apply for these money if he didn't work for more as 60 months in Germany, and to get it back with two years waiting period. Now somebody told me, that there are new rules, concerning the new state of countries, entering EU in 2007. That's why, a friend of mine went to BFA and asked about the details. The answer was, that the things will change, and the refund will be no more possible.

I hope, that the Beamter(in) was incompetent, and I could get all these money now, not (probably) after 25 years in small pieces.

Isn't there people from Poland? From the other countries already in EU? What about the italians or the frenchmans? Somebody should know the details!

Best regards,
Plamen

Hi Plamen,
ich weiss, was du möchtest, ich selber habe mich überlegt, ob ich auch meine Anträge nicht zurückbeantrage. In der Broschüre auf Seite 9 steht folgendes: "1.2 Zusammenrechnung deutscher und bulgarischer Zeiten für den Rentenanspruch
Nach dem Abkommen werden neben den deutschen auch bulgarische Versicherungszeiten
für die Erfüllung von Anspruchsvoraussetzungen berücksichtigt. Dadurch können
Rentenansprüche entstehen, die allein mit deutschen Zeiten nicht gegeben sind."

Auf Seite 8 - letzter Satz:"Versicherte, die eine Beitragserstattung erhalten können, sollten vor der Stellung des Erstattungsantrags prüfen, ob sie unter Zusammenrechnung von deutschen und bulgarischen Zeiten nicht bereits einen deutschen Rentenanspruch haben."

Das bedeutet, wenn du in Bulgarien gearbeitet hast, und die Summe von den Zeiten in Bulgarien und Deutschland grösser als 59 Monate ist, kannst du keine Beitragserstattung beantragen.

Übrigends habe folgenden Dokument gefunden:
"Die Beitragserstattung in das Ausland"
http://www.bfa.de/nn_8892/de/Inhalt/Publikationen/Brosch_C3_BCren/International/BfA-Information_20Nr._2026,property=publicationFile.pdf
Das was du suchst steht auf Seite 5:
"1.3 Staatsangehörige von EWR-Mitgliedstaaten
sowie Schweizer Bürger
Bei den Staatsangehörigen ausländischer EWR-Mitgliedstaaten, das sind: Belgien, Dänemark, Estland, Finnland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Großbritannien und
Nordirland, Republik Irland, Island, Italien, Lettland, Liechtenstein, Litauen, Luxemburg,
Malta, Niederlande, Norwegen, Österreich, Polen, Portugal, Schweden, Slowakei,Slowenien, Spanien, Tschechien, Ungarn und Zypern,sowie bei Schweizer Bürgern kommt es darauf an, ob sie sich in einem dieser Staaten oder aber in einem ausländischen Staat außerhalb des EWR bzw. der Schweiz gewöhnlich aufhalten (Drittstaat).
- Halten sie sich in einem ausländischen EWR-Mitgliedstaat oder in der Schweiz
gewöhnlich auf, erhalten sie wegen der bei Vorliegen deutscher Beiträge vorhandenen
Versicherungsberechtigung in der deutschen Rentenversicherung keine Beitragserstattung.
- Beitragserstattung in das Ausland
Halten sie sich in einem ausländischen Staat außerhalb des EWR oder der
Schweiz gewöhnlich auf und sind zur deutschen Rentenversicherung für weniger
als 60 Monate Beiträge gezahlt worden, ist die Beitragserstattung mangels Versicherungsberechtigung
in der deutschen Rentenversicherung zulässig.
Die Beitragserstattung ist stets ausgeschlossen, wenn in der Rentenversicherung
eines EWR-Mitgliedstaates (auch der Bundesrepublik Deutschland) oder der Schweiz
eine Pflichtversicherung besteht. Weitere Ausschlussgründe ergeben sich aus Ziff. 2.
Eine freiwillige Beitragsleistung zur Rentenversicherung eines ausländischen EWRMitgliedstaates steht einer Beitragserstattung nicht entgegen."

Grüsse,
Peter

Schlecht!

So, ich muss das Rauchen aufhören um das Rentenalter zu errichen...

P.

has anyone got any new information about ppl from india/pakistan working more then 60 month ?

still waiting some clear answer.


thanks alot


tali

@tali22

Guck mal in der gleichen Broschüre:
""
http://www.bfa.de/nn_8892/de/Inhalt/Publikationen/Brosch_C3_BCren/International/BfA-Information_20Nr._2026,property=publicationFile.pdf

Punkt: "1.2 Ausländer des so genannten vertragslosen Auslands

Ausländer, die Staatsangehörige eines Staates sind, der weder dem EWR oder der Schweiz – vgl. Ziff. 1.3 – noch den unter den nachfolgenden Ziff. 1.4 bis 1.19 aufgeführten Vertragsstaaten angehört,

- erhalten bei rechtmäßigem Wohnsitz in einem EU-Mitgliedstaat (das sind: Belgien,
Dänemark, Estland, Finnland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Großbritannien und Nordirland, Republik Irland, Italien, Lettland, Litauen, Luxemburg, Malta, Niederlande, Österreich, Polen, Portugal, Schweden, Slowakei, Slowenien, Spanien,
Tschechien, Ungarn und Zypern) wegen der bei Vorliegen deutscher Beiträge vorhandenen Versicherungsberechtigung in der deutschen Rentenversicherung keine Beitragserstattung,
- erfüllen bei gewöhnlichem Aufenthalt im sonstigen Ausland regelmäßig die eingangs
genannten Voraussetzungen und sind deshalb erstattungsberechtigt. Eine Pflichtversicherung in der Rentenversicherung eines anderen ausländischen Staates
steht einer Beitragserstattung grundsätzlich nicht entgegen. In welchen Fällen eine Beitragserstattung hier dennoch ausgeschlossen ist, ergibt sich aus Ziff. 2. Eine freiwillige Versicherung in der Rentenversicherung eines ausländischen Staates steht einer Beitragserstattung in keinem Fall entgegen."

Indien/Pakistan gehören zu dieser Gruppe.

Grüsse,
Peter

Hi, Jumbo,

How to understand the paragraph below?

"1.6 Bulgarische Staatsangehörige
Für bulgarische Staatsangehörige mit gewöhnlichem Aufenthalt im Ausland ist eine
Beitragserstattung zulässig, wenn keine Berechtigung zur freiwilligen Versicherung
besteht, d.h. wenn für weniger als 60 Monate Beiträge zur deutschen gesetzlichen
In welchen Fällen eine Beitragserstattung dennoch ausgeschlossen ist, ergibt sich aus Ziff. 2."

It's from the document "Die Beitragserstattung in das Ausland" - the link you posted just above.

Plamen

200 Euros?!!!
I pay each month ca. 400 Euros + 400 Euros pays my employer. The money from employer is not a present. This money is subtracted from my salary. After 5 Years I have payed ca. 50.000 Euro. If I calculate with 3% yearly that’s are 117.000,- Euro after 30 Years. And then I get 200,- Euros monthly perhaps 10 Years. That’s are 24.000,- Euro. Ca. 100.000,- Euros keeps this f..g state in the pocket. 100.000 x 15.000 Greencardler are 1,5 Millard Euros! The global world concerns are small children compared with this thiefs. And they maltreat us the whole time like last shit.

so true analysis.
But general public is not aware of this. Even so much educated german friends talk so much agaisnt of asslander in germany i feel bit scared.
Hope things become fine , I am searching some oppertunity outside as soon before my 60month , as its not claer to me wht will after 60month pansion. I tried to translate that text paste by some poster in message above for indian but I didnt much snese from online translation sites ans my german language is still not good to understand that.


brs

Tali

@Plamen
"How to understand the paragraph below?
1.6 Bulgarische Staatsangehörige..."

Das bedeutet, wenn du im Ausland wohnst, und weniger als 60 Monate Rentenbeiträge bezahlt hast, darfst du auch Beitragserstattung beantragen. Allerdings musst du dafür mindestens 2 Jahre warten. Dann wird Bulgarien in EU sein und die Regelungen, die unter 1.3 sind, gelten werden.

Die einzige Möglichkeit ist wenn Bulgarien erst 01.01.2008 ins EU kommt. Dann hast du ja die 2 Jahre. Das ist aber unwahrscheinlich denke ich.

Peter

Deutsche Staatsangehörige
Für Deutsche ist eine Beitragserstattung regelmäßig nicht möglich, da sie auch bei Aufenthalt im Ausland zur freiwilligen Versicherung berechtigt sind.

Staatsangehörige aus Mitgliedstaaten/Abkommensstaaten
Bei ausländischen Versicherten, die die Staatsangehörigkeit eines Mitgliedstaates beziehungsweise eines Abkommenstaates haben, kommt es auf die jeweiligen Bestimmungen im Gemeinschaftsrecht bzw. im entsprechenden Abkommensrecht an. Bezüglich der einzelnen Regelungen siehe BfA-Broschüre "Die Beitragserstattung in das Ausland".

Versicherte aus dem vertragslosen Ausland
Für Personen, die nicht die Staatsangehörigkeit eines Mitgliedstaates besitzen und ihren rechtmäßigen Wohnsitz in einem EU-Mitgliedstaat haben, ist eine Beitragserstattung nicht möglich, da sie bei Aufenthalt im EU-Mitgliedstaat zur freiwilligen Versicherung berechtigt sind.

Bei gewöhnlichem Aufenthalt im sonstigen Ausland können diese Versicherten nach ihrem Verzug aus Deutschland und nach Ablauf der Wartefrist von 24 Kalendermonaten grundsätzlich eine Beitragserstattung erhalten.

http://www.bfa.de/nn_9334/de/Navigation/Themen/International/Versicherung/Beitragserstattung__node.html

@All
It will be great if someone can explain above in english. As it sounds quite interesting.


Thanks


regards
Tali

Hi, I am a new member. I just called my friend who works in the LVA. She told that there is a law in SGB VI §210 which says that everybody who is leaving Germany and cannot stay in the insurance can get back the money after waiting 24 months.
Just check.
Regards
Elisabeth

Hi Elisabeth,

I am afraid that your information is not completely correct. Please read through this whole thread and you will find the correct answers and links to the source of information as well !

Regards,
Ashish

I had sent a mail to BFA. Yesterday I got a reply from them by post. The letter is as authentic as it gets with the letterhead, seal and everything.

It clearly states that an Indian citizen can get back the Renteversicherung money after two years of leaving Germany even if has contributed for more than 60 months. Just that he will have to sign a declaration at the time of application that he won't claim pension later.

For me, this matter is closed and luckily so in a good way.

Can you please let us know that what specifically you asked them(bfa) and where did you send the mail(or post?) i.e. at what address of bfa?

Also if you don't mind - can you provide us a scanned copy of the letter received from bfa(ofcourse with your personal details commented).

Thanks
Soni

@iaminfrankfurt
@nsoni

@ALL

Can anyone share format , what exactly one should write BFA to get this info . Question in mind is , What is rule for person working in Germany more than 60 months and belong to country who dont have any pension agreement with Germany.

From some friends I still hear this that after working more then 60 month , one cannot claim his pension contribution after 2 yrs leaving Germany.

any info is welcome ...

tali0300(at)yahoo(dot)com

Thanke all

Tali

@tali:

Didnt we all discuss this earlir in this thread:
http://www.trust7.com/en/forums/faq_and_important_links/bfa


-Fred
starwars2@gmail.com