Hello,

does anyone follow on this topic?
I tried to follow, but my german is too bad that I couldn't understand accurately.

somebody can comment?

thanks.

Hi

As always, if there is a new law which is for the benefit of foreigners, right-wing german parties will complain about it loudly.. that is what they do now..
Rot-Grüne coalition support the idea but CSU/CDU thinks that this will just bring more brueacracy (??)to the german system.

I personally find the defending point of the right wing parties about the anti-discrimination law just ridiculous. But they have enough parliamenters in Bundestag, so they rule.. which means very bad for us foreigners.. that is basicly it..

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi Lacrima,

this special law does not need the agreement of the 'Bundesrat'. So the opposition can not stop it.

The other point, if you are interested in my opinion, I myself think this is, as we say in German, 'Des Guten ein wenig zuviel getan'.

Which means, that this law is in fact overloaded. It goes far ahead of the European draft of such a law and it means, that anybody, women, handicapped people, foreigners, members of special religions and so on, can go to the law court, when they feel, that soembody discriminated them.

The basic idea is good, but the problem is, that this can cause a lot of law cases. An example: A female secretary is simply to lazy or to stupid to do her job propperly and the boss would like to employ another woman, a more talented and busy one. Now the lazy secretary says, that she feels discriminated, because she is a woman and therefor she does not accept the firing.

Now the boss has to prove, that he did not discriminated her. This could be difficulty and will last a long time.

So at least all German lawyers will be happy about the new law, but I doubt, that this will help our country to be more competitive in the international business.

Have a nice day
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks bringing up the new view points to the discussion. I personally didnt look at the details of the law but I did read newspaper articles about it, so it was my impression that another automatic "no, we dont want it" reaction of the right-wing parties about a law which is supposed to protect the foreigners.

If I look at the case from your point of view, theoritically every law can be abused. Shall we then stop discussing new laws and just reject them, just because they can be abused when they are effective in practice. There are a lot of people out there with bad intensions, what if, the secretary example that you gave, was not lazy indeed, was really discriminated by her boss ? how can we differentiate it then ? this becomes more a philosophical question that needs to be answered. Obviously the wording of the law must be accurate, so that it will not give much space for the people who want to abuse it.

The fact is that, there is a need for such a law in Germany. I myself was discriminated in many occasions, just because of my foreign accent or just because of my name/appearance. Did you know that some "famous" car insurance companies refuse to insure foreigners for car-accidents.(or they insure foreigners with higher premiums) Even if you have been driving years without having a scratch on your car and even if you carry the german citizenship card in your pocket ?
How would you feel then in such a situation?
Do you really think that it is a bad idea to give people at least a possibility to defend themselves in such situations ? or shall we just accept it as it is, as poor foreigners ?

I am sorry, Detlef, I personally like you and the things that you do for foreigners. You are a person who does not have prejudices about foreigners but your standing point in this discussion disappointed me a lot. I respect your ideas though, but I myself just dont think in the way you do.

Regards,

Lacrima

I myself also feel that there should be a law like this. We foreigners are discriminated in many places. As for example, when you want to rent a house, sometimes the landlord directly say "I do not rent my house to a foreigner." Can you imagine how shocking is this kind of comment for us!

mk

Hi Lacrima,

I did not say, that I do not want such a law or that we do not need it, I just said, that we are going further, than the European draft of the law.

There is one point, which makes me afraid, that this law will increase bureaucrazy a lot. It is the point of 'Beweislast'.

This means, that the one who is suspected to discriminate others has to proof, that he is not guilty, and the one who thinks, that he or she has been discriminated, just has to say this, without proofs.

In our normal judiskation system someone is not guilty, until a judge says so, because of some proofs and a law case.

'Normaler Weise ist jemand unschuldig, bis ihm seine Schuld bewiesen wurde'

Now it will be the other way round, if some one says I discrimated him, I am guilty, and I have to proof, that I am not not guilty.

I am not sure if my English is good enough to explain what I mean, but I hope so :-)

And, a last word, even good friends have different points of view, sometimes. But this should not affect the relation ship. If we would have the same opinion always, it would be a bit boring, or not?

By
Detlef

It is an interesting subject, it is the first time I hear about Anti Discrimination law. All I am aware of is a DISCRIMINATION law, I am not joking, if you read about the other part of the new immigration law started in 01.01.2005 you will understand what I mean.

Yes I think we need an ANTI DISCRIMINATION to protect from the DISCRIMINATION law, funny isn't it?

I may be right, I may be wrong, it is just my point of view.

W.

just a thought:
Is it discrimination if someone is not alowed to work in Germany (or anywhere) becuse he is Ausländer and without visa?

Hello DVD,

Please forgive me for my comment.
I think your question is beyond of the anti-discrimination law. Every country has the right to protect its job market. In my opinion, the answer to your question isn't discriminative.

I don't understand the whole discussion in the news, but I think Detlef has pointed out the contraproductive factor of the law and I aggreed with him.