Hi All,

Till now I was one of many silent followers of trust7 forums. I am a GC from Frankfurt. I came to Germany in 1999 on a work permit that later got converted to a Green Card. As my 5 years stay in Germany is completed this year (April), I have applied to the alien office for a permanent visa. The process seems to be completed now, but final decision is pending on my interview with them, scheduled within next weeks. I was told that in the interview they want to test my word-of-mouth comfortability with German language. My German language skills are limited to so-called supermarket German. I wanted to know that does somebody have experience with this PR stuff and any idea how strict the authorities are with the language.

rds
kds

Hi dude,

hope you got it right and good luck.

As far as I know, this will first be on your ability to understand what people will tell you during the interview and the way you respond, because this will be relevant to your degree of comprehension and they will give you a newspaper with 3 articles from which you will have to choose, they different in length and for sure, the shorter the article, the more complicated it will be and you will have to synthetize the article you will read in your own words.
Dunno more but don't take my words as law, it's all I've been said but never checked to know if it's true or not.

D.

Hi kds,

Good luck for your German test!
When you'll have time please share with us what were the necessary steps you've made for a permanent visa.

Regards,

mac

Hi,

The process and criteria for applying for Permanent visa are -

Criteria
1. 5 years stay in Germany (day counting starts from the time one gets his first residence permit.

2. A job contract. Unlimited is better. Some companies issue unlimited contracts to GC like Siemens whereas others like mine have objection to it.

Process
1. Contact you local aliens office. They could be normally contacted also via e-mail. Get an appointment.

2. You will need to will a form named "Antrag auf verlängerung einer Aufenthaltgenehmigung". This form is also available in English language

3. Along with the form or later you will need to submit also other documents namely - house rent, last 3 months salary slip, Current valid work permit.

4. After submitting the documents, the authorities will need roughly 4-6 weeks for checking (this also includes police clearance). Once there process is completed, they will inform you.

5. Now after making an appointment you would be required to go there. In this interview they are suppose to take your German language comfort ability test. The requirement is of “einfach deutsch”.

6. Also in the interview the authorities want to look at your job stability. People told me that it is better to take your boss along as it gives a good impression. Well I am doing this, is this good or not, would tell you later.

Hello kds,

thanks very much for your detail information. Can you tell me, which kind of work permit do you have? Is "Arbeitsberechtigung" or "Arbeitserlaubnis" with time limit and only for your current company. If it is "Arbeitserlaubnis", how long is it valid?

Our problem is, our current workpermit "Arbeitserlaubnis" is no more valid, if we apply for permanent Visa after stay 5 years in Germany. Can you give us the information? thanks very much. good luck for you.

GC-Holder100

Hi,

My workpermit is Arbeitserlaubnis currently ending on 04/2006 and bound to the specific employer. You mentioned it right that getting a permanent visa would cancel my current work permit and also my current contract with my employer.
I have already communicated this to my company, they would issue my another contract after I get my PR.
Do you forsee any problems in this??.

rgs
kds

Hi kds,

Great information, thanks! Thanks and Good luck!
We are waiting for good news from you.

Regards,

mac

HI,
After hearing at you, I really don't understand why we (Greencardlers) are keen in knowing of developements in immigration law??

It seems I misunderstood either you did.
Total confusion.Anyway I wish you best of luck.
keep updating.

Jelda

Hi jelda,

As I came before Green card scheme (on a normal work permit) was launched, I have a valid work permit valid till 2006 whereas I have completed my 5 years stay this year itself. By German Law anybody who has stayed in Germany for 5 years becomes eligible to apply for a PR visa.
All people who came with the Green Card have a problem that their work permit would be ending at 5 years exactly. This puts the GC’s in unfavorable condition and its also too much of risk to wait for the last moment.

rds
kds

Hi,

Jelda, we are so keen on Immigration law because this could help us GCs to get an extension of our work and residence permit.
With the Immigration law (if it will be voted) we can apply for these extensions beginning with August 2005.

Also the current aliens law (AuslG), permits us to get such extensions but is more tricky, because you have to know some laws... and wait exactly 5 years...

Rds, have you applied for a extension of the residence according to AuslG § 24, Abs. 1? Have you done this with the help of a lawyer?

You’ve said that you are working since 5 years here, so I guess that your next step will be to get Arbeitsberechtigung, according to SGB III § 286, or not?

mac

Hi kds

I guess your post is quite important.

Also to Jelda, last year was loooongly discussed in this forum the meaning of two terms: "Arbeitserlaubnis" and "Arbeitsberechtigung" and the relation with the "Aufenthalts*".

I guess the last conclusion (about a couple of months of discussion) was we, humble GreenCards owners, are impossibilited to ask for a permanent visa (or PR = Permanent Residency) because we have Arbeitserlaubnis and not Arbeitberechtigung.

I think is a very brave action from your side just to decide to go to Auslanderamt to ask for your PR, no matter the opinions of anybody. Only in this place they have the answer. No more theory!

So, really good luck, and thanks to make the first step. I can only do the same in 3 years and something, but me in your shoes I´d made the same.

With the actual state of the f....g law, I guess we are all pending of your results.

As far as I heard, the exam is not so difficult. Allways is related with how sympathic fits you with the Beamter, but the newspaper article seems to be a constant. In addition, VHS in most of the places of Germany dictates one evening course, a couple of times monthly to prepare to this test.

Good Luck

YO

As denoted before in this discussion, the 5 year residence requirement here will be a point that 2/3 of GreenCarders will not meet when their Arbeitsgenehmigung expires. See page 10 of http://www.bmwa.bund.de/Redaktion/Inhalte/Downloads/auslaenderkennziffern-maerz2004,property=pdf.pdf

That reveals the fact that 11541 of 15986 have not been working/living here before their arrival issued on the Green card regulations.

Having this Info in background the Zuwanderungsgesetz is and remains a matter of interest for at least those big fraction of us.
I myself be one of those who would feel the facts as I took the offer in mid 2000 and having all this concern as all of us,that dropping or postponing such a law will push me to rethink alternatives, still the dropping of the law from Greens is the most logical thing i understand.

Look at it as a Longterm ( of lifelong) investment, the direction a country is going which we aim to be a part of matters really. Checking how the discussions on this law is developed, I do fully understand the Greens point of view that they let the whole thing drop cause there is not much remained of it which makes sense as far as a fair integration is to be considered. Actually in this matter, they are the only party still see the longterm result from a fair point of view. Don't forget your next generation and compare the life situation of new generation of foriegners in Germany to those in other developed countries.

Let us hope that the law parts which can get through without bundesrat vote (Union dominated upperhouse), makes it for the Green card holders.

Regards

Also, In my opinion the greens did the best to give up this stupid discussion!
For example, If you look at the statistics you will see in years from 1997 till 2003 about 700,000 Aussiedler came to Germany, I'm not going to tell something against them but if you know how easy they can come here and load the German social system and how easy they get their German citizenship (sometimes without enough German language skill) then you will agree with me that the RACE is still here the main factor concerning the ZUWANDERUNG! ;-)
The GCs are about 16,000 (and maximum are to be 20,000), all educated and most of them are working and paying tax but they don't want to simplify the granting of PR for them, who are really useful for German economy!
I don't like to see only my problem as CG, all foreigners here have right to be treated fairly (i.e. 6,143,640 existing Aufenthaltstitels) , the immigration law could be a good solution for all of them, but !!!?!!!?
If you can ignore how it's difficult to find an apartment, open an account, get a credit, sign a contract , get a better job and... when you are an AUSLÄNDER, then here is the best place in the world as you can enjoy some social benefits which you would find rarely in other developed countries like Canada or Australia. But the time of nice social system for Germans is also over (see the demographic diagrams then you will see what I mean! )

regards

HI,
to kds: "Till now I was one of many silent followers of trust7 forums. I am a GC from Frankfurt."..Here I just copied your first message. Here I understood u are a GreenCardler.ok. good to see ur reply to my question.

to all:
Just would like to get some info...
Actually I am also living here since 1999 oct. for the first 2 years as a student and then as a GreenCardler.
Does this mean am I eligible to apply for Permanent residentship as kds says.?

Whatever it could be I am the most optimistic person who believes either immigration law will be passed or the 5 year limit of workpermit will be removed to the Greencardlers.. And still if they don't do it, they are the loosers not we.

thanks 4 ur replies..
jelda

Jelda,
As per my knowledge.. when you are student in Germany, you get
a residence status called "Aufenthaltsbewilligung". This kind of residence status is not counted for the years that you need to spend to get a Permanent Residence.

You have to have a residence status of (at least) "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" and spend 5 years in Germany with this residence status then you may consider to apply for a PR.

I think in kds's case, he started to work in Germany from the very beginning(not studied, hence got a residence status of "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" from the very beginning) which is different from your case..

Regards

Lacrima

"Verfahren
Vor der Einreise muss ein Visumverfahren bei der zuständigen deutschen Auslandsvertretung durchgeführt werden, das jedoch durch besondere Regelungen erheblich beschleunigt wird. Für die Erteilung des Einreisevisums ist es erforderlich, dass eine Arbeitserlaubnis für eine Beschäftigung in Deutschland erteilt oder zugesichert wurde.
Der IT -Fachkraft wird dann nach der Einreise auf Basis dieser Verordnung durch die Ausländerbehörde am Wohnort eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis für die Dauer der Beschäftigung, längstens jedoch für fünf Jahre erteilt. Ist das Arbeitsverhältnis auf einen kürzeren Zeitraum befristet, wird die Aufenthaltserlaubnis für diesen Zeitraum erteilt. Wird der Arbeitsvertrag verlängert und auch die Arbeitserlaubnis weiter erteilt, kann die Aufenthaltserlaubnis bis zu fünf Jahren verlängert werden.
!!!***Wird das Arbeitsverhältnis nach Ablauf der fünf Jahre weitergeführt, so erfolgt die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis nach den allgemeinen Bestimmungen des Ausländerrechts.***!!!"

http://www.bmi.bund.de/dokumente/Artikel/ix_26834.htm


Hi

the „den allgemeinen Bestimmungen des Ausländerrechts“ means ( I hope so) that if you after 5 y. have job and the flat you can get „unbefristet…
The tricky is that we need the valid “Arbeitserlaubnis”
So maybe this will bring little bit optimism in our lines.
Regards,
jsamu

Hi GCs,
lacrima I disagree with you that "Aufenthaltbewilligung" is not counted when considering an Application for an "Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"(PR). In some states (Bundesländer), it may be considered whereas in others it is considered. The Best thing is to get the practical experience as one GC sugested above.
Jelda: when you are ready Just go in for it and see what comes out.

Hi all,

As correctly mentioned, the 5 years time should only consist of your working time here in germany.
I would be going to the aliens office tommarrow, so lets see now. By next evening you guys will know what happened to myself.

rds
kds

Hi all again,

to make it clear, my statements are only valid for Frankfurt. One of my friends has only the same case as myself in regensburg. In next 4-6 weeks his situation will be clear also.

regards
kds

Hi "myname"

Here is the law regarding this issue :

-----<<<>>>--------
AuslG § 24 Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis
(1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis ist unbefristet zu verlängern, wenn der Ausländer

-die AUFENTHALTSERLAUBNIS seit fünf Jahren besitzt,
-eine Arbeitsberechtigung besitzt, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,
-im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner
Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist,
-sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich
verständigen kann,
-über ausreichenden Wohnraum (§ 17 Abs. 4) für sich und seine
mit ihm in häuslicher Gemeinschaft lebenden Familienangehörigen
verfügt und wenn
-kein Ausweisungsgrund vorliegt.
-----<<<>>>--------

It does not talk about any "Aufenthaltsbewilligung"
I beleive this law is Federal Level so should be valid in all States
of Germany.
Nothing stops you from trying your chance but this is my interpretation from the law.

Regards,
Lacrima

PS: Law is available here:
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/auslg.html

Uhhh, once more this discussion...

We have no Arbeitsberechtigung. We have Arbeitserlaubnis and Aufenthaltserlaubnis!

I think have no sense discussing in the air. Let´s wait for kds (Fam) and his friend (Bayern - The hardest part of Germany!) and let´s see what is false and what is true

Regards

YO

YO,

Would you please read my post once more ? Did I mention anywhere
in my post that GCs have Arbeitsberechtigung ?

Thanks for reminding that GCs have Arbeitserlaubnis and Aufenthaltserlaubnis
'cause I was not able to read what is written on my passport and work-permit.

what I am trying to explain here is, residence status of "Aufenthaltsbewilligung" (Student)
is not counted for the 5 years time that is necessarry for "Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"

kds and his friend's results will not have any effect to this discussion 'cause
they dont have the situation mentioned above. Only jelda's situation's results may have
an effect to this discussion in case he/she decides to apply for the PR with
his/her student years included.

I am afraid your last post is totally OFF-TOPIC. Please understand what is being discussed before contributing your idea.

Regards

Lacrima

I agree with the above post. If someone is here as a student for 5-6 years, can he/she directly get permanent residency? use your "kidney" man.

Sorry, Guys! If you apply a Permanent Visa after 5 years in germany, you must have a "Arbeitsberechtigung". and we, as GC-Holder, we can not apply a "Arbeitsberechtigung", because we have the notice "gilt nur als Softwareentwickler" in our "befristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis". And our current "Arbeitserlaubnis" is no more valid at this moment. And the joke is, if you have the permanent Visa, you do not need to have any "Arbeitserlaubnis"
/"Arbeitsberechtigung" more.

I was 14 years in germany. and have studied Informatik. I have belived, that the 5 years limit will be changed. So I have a GC since 2000 too. Now I must say, that was the biggest mistake. Austria has had a GC-program in year 2000 too. That GC-program have NO time limit.

The german government do not tell us the truth. Because they do not need a "Zuwanderungsgesetz" to change the 5 years limit. The government can change the 5 years time limit per "Verordnung" easily without "Bundesrat"!! And they donot do it.

Germany is no good country for us ("hochqualifiziert"). If you come to germany as Asly-Bewerber or Flüchtling, you will be treated better. You can get all social benefit. We have payed so more. And we will get no social benefit!

Sorry, but this is the fact. and I think, this is a lesson for us all, no more with germany!

GC-Holder100

the other truth is, that SPD, CDU, Grün and FDP had changed the draft of "Zuwanderungsgesetz". Now "Aufenthalterlaubnis" is only for "Hochqualifiziert". As "Hochqualifiziert", you should have a salary more than 2*3.850=7.700€ monthly. I think, the most of us have not such salary. So it is for us "scheiß egal", ob we have the new "Zuwanderungsgesetz", or not!!!

GC Holder 100,
just relax.We will get the PR.Worry only about your job and try to retain as long as possible.
rgds
GnR

Hi all

Lacrima: have you been drinking? Where are your kindness?

First of all, I read your post. Second, I guess YOU didn´t understood the topic. Third, read the post of GC100 if you want to know what I triyed to mean.

To Sun: The above lines apply to you also.

I accept sometimes I can be wrong, but I deserve respect, because I´m older than both of you and also "older" in this Forum, and never had a problem with anybody.

My "kidney" is busy in my job, from where I receive money.

I posted it once: all of the participants here have high skills and most of us College or University degrees (2 and 3/4 in my case).

Please, keep the level of the Forum high, discuss only important subjects and don´t treat me like a kid.

And finally, GC100 thanks man/woman to give a little bit of light to the Arbeits* and Aufenthal* subject

Final period in this topic for me

YO

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, the decision to include (or not) time spent in Aufenhaltsbewillgungstatus is a matter of every individual state, it could well happen that only half of the time will be acknowledged. My understanding is that federal law means that all states have to implement the law as a minimun, it doesn't mean that they can not add things to it. At least that's what I have seen in other laws.

As a matter of fact in the EU guideline, and please read it throughly, because Germany is obliged to incorporate it into it's legislation, (http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2004/l_016/l_01620040123en00440053.pdf), 50% of the time spent as a student will be explicitly recognized.

Hey Guys, I saw that this topic has escalated a little bit.
I understand that all of you guys are angry, skeptic and so on…but this due to this laws jungle… and most for the unknown situation.

The German government made a lot of publicity 4 years ago with this GC Initiative and spent a lot of time to explain what is this, what are our rights here, what are the taxes to be paid here (social and salary ones…) and so on…

Now, that the 5 years limit is near, nobody cares to give us an explanation, what will be our situation, what can be done to stay/work here further, or if they really need us anymore.
This ignorance is stupid… this is perhaps the way they are treating specialists.
Or perhaps they are ashamed that they need in the past specialists.

I want to see something officially that says “For GCs there are (or not) chances to stay here after this 5 years. And here are the things that have to be done: …”.
But we are not going to see something like this, because we have to find some typical tricks in the German laws to achieve this.

Let me explain again some aspects of those laws:
1. The GC law says 100 % that maximum time limit is 5 years. So you cannot get a GC over these 5 years.
2. This doesn’t means that we cannot stay and work here further. This means only that we cannot stay as GC anymore. So we have to change our status here and visa.
3. Ok, and now the concrete part. After this 5 years we can apply the federal Ausländer- and Sozialrecht:
a. According to AuslG § 24 Abs. 1 we can stay here more than 5 years. It has nothing to do with the GC law.
b. According to SGB III § 286 we can get a Arbeitsberechtingung so we can work after these 5 years. It has also nothing to do with the GC law.

So guys according some other independent laws we can stay and work here more than 5 years. The point is that in the first 5 years we were GCs…afterwards we are like the others Ausländers.

I hope that you’ve understood my points and I hope I brought a little optimism here…

Regards,

mac

hi mac,

there are some pre requisites to get a PR here in germany. One of these conditions should be satisfied... Some of them are

1. Continuous stay of 6 years
2. 60 months of pension payments

and some more are there. But the problem for GCs is that, apart from these conditions, you should still have a work permit, beyond this period to have your PR. But almost every GCs work permit expires after 5 years, unless the visa status is changed and got a new work permit independent of GC work permit. If we can get this, PR should be piece of cake. Without that, I am skeptical, but i dont say there wont be ways means, its only that i am not aware of them..

Cmreddy

Hey dear Mac,

thanks for your optimismus. What you have said, have right. but only theoretical. Let us see the Details:

- After 5 years in germany you can get PR According to AuslG, but you can not get it because... see my text "Permanent Visa for GC-Holder impossible".

- According AuslG, you can get a "Befristete Aufenhaltserlaubnis" with a spe. notice, if you have a Workpermit

- In Arbeitsamt: at first you can not get a "Arbeitsberechtigung", if you have a notice "nur gilt als Softwareentwickler". They will make a "Arbeitsmarket Prüfung", if you want to apply a workpermit for your current company to continue your work after 5 years. They will find definitive a german people from 4.4 million Arbeitslose, who can theoreritical to do your job. so you can forget your workpermit.

Fact is, that some of us, who can speak german gut and know the law well and with a bit luck, can get PR. I think, I will get it too. But most of us must go home.

The problem is, what is for me angry, that the german gevornment can change the situation very easily without "Bundesrat", if they will. But they will NOT!!!. See my Text "The new Zuwanderungsgesetz can not help us (GC-Holders)"

best reguards

GC-Holder100

Hi GC 100,
Yes, the truth will be in front of our eyes very soon.The PR would be case to case basis and not a general conversion for all.Most critical element for being granted a PR would be German language proficiency (75%).We may or maynot like it,but thats the truth.
I would recommend to all my GC friends here who are almost at completion of their GC period, please sharpen your German language skills to just more than basic german(as soon as possible).You might not believe it, granting of an unlimited resident permit is no big deal for the German Government.Most
of PRs are issued right at local Ausländerbehördes without involving any big sort recommendation or anything.
Am still very confident that this would happen without much of news or propaganda.This will happen very quitely and case to case basis.
GnR

Hi all,
we must NOT passiv wait, before the Time limit comes. We can do something common active, to change our situation.
- We should report our situation, spe. how german government treats the Hochqualifiziert, that germeny needs, in all of famous newspaper in the World. And we should warn the other Hochqualifiziets no more to go to germany. If the german government see it, that nobody will come. perhapes they will change the Timelimit very quickly per "Verordnung"!
- And we must dismantle in "Bundeswirtschaftsministerium"

GC-Holder 100

Hi GnR,

it is good, that you are so optimistic. After the 14 years stay in Germany (Study and then as GC-Holder, <--the biggest mistake in my life) is my patience over. I don't know, if you can speak german very well. If you can, you should know, that one of the requirement for the PR is, that you have the "Arbeitsberechtigung". But we as GC have a technical problem. Detail see "Permanent Visa for GC-Holder impossible". Have you a solution für the pratical problem? If you have, please tell us.

GG-Holder100

Hi GC 100
i appreciate your point.BUT like you, we are also in the same boat.Solution is to take the first step and then the results.Have you already approached the ausländerbehörde?
Its not that they would stamp a PR immediately, but would issues an interim extension of your aufenthaltserlaubnis.During this interim period, as you crossover the 5 year period, then arbeitsberechtigung should be issued.But remember the antrag (application) at the behörde ist not such a simple process.Filing the application needs some time and patience and there are sections which needs to be backed by your current employer.
If you are currently working for a firm and they are OK to back yu up for the extension application, the crossover period would be met mit.
Critical being, you get support from your HR guys.However i am not sure about the exact duration of the extended stay.Again that depends on the behörde official, your language skills, whether he likes you..etc.
Dont lose hope.First the ausländerbehörde and then if the outcome is negative, then one can think on other lines.
I understand your point of view regarding raising the concerns in newspapers, etc, but unfortunately Germany and the press are currently occupied with the new EU structure and the outcomes, that the GC issue would be buried somewhere down under.
regards
GnR

Hey dear GnR,

I wish really, that you have right, because we are in same boat. now I want to explain. You get the "Arbeitsberechtigung" only by "Arbeitsamt", not by "Ausländerbehörde". The process to get the PR is very diferrent. In my city, you can get it within 5 Minutes, if you have all required documents. I have a very good job and my salary is more than the most of us. And the company makes very good profit. This is no problem. My visa is not for 5 years. Very 2 years, get a new. It is no problem, that I can get the third 2 years, if I have a job with good salary. The problem is, after 5 years, our workpermit is no more valid. You can apply for continue, but it needs a "Arbeitsmarket Prüfung". That is not easy.

You can go to the Ausländerbehörde for apply the PR. They will say, it is no problem. But you should go to "Arbeitsamt" to get "Arbeitsberechtigung". And the Arbeitsamt says, that is no problem for you to get a "Arbeitsberechtigung", but in your "befristete Aufenthalterlaubnis" have a notice "gilt nur als Softwareentwickler". So we can give you the "Arbeitsberechtigung", if you do not have the notice. And you go to the "Ausländerbehörde", they will say, the notice can not be removed, if you do not have "Arbeitsberechtigung". This is very stupid. And if you have had the PR, you donot need "Arbeitsberechtigung" more, because with PR you can do anything, what you want.

My problem is not, that I can not get PR. I think, I will get it. But the fact is, the most of us must go home. And the german government can change it very easily with "Verordnung". We are lall the people, just like the german! We need the safty for our life, not after 5 years! In this five years you can not have a long time life plan, because you can not 100% know, if you can get the PR or not. I hope, you unterstand my point.

What I mean in the newspaper, this is not in German Newspaper. It is more useful, in foreign famous newspaper, like BBC or CNN.

best reguards

GC-Holder100

Hi I believe this discussion will not come to an end before 2005. We will not get any conclusion.

For those who live here more than 5 years (with GC), and if you wish to apply your PR here is a letter from Parliemen. Maybe this will help.

http://german-green-card.org/ITFachleute.pdf

The letter stated that it is a misunderstand from public that a GC has to go after 5 year term. If a GC has a work an fullfill some other pre-requsites, they can stay longer (perhaps PR).

If you look at this site
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aav_it.html

It says that, your resident permit (for GC) is restricted to number of years of your working contract or maximum 5 years or can be prolonged.

So that means, after 5 years you are able to apply for a PR provided you have all the pre-requsites.

Maybe is a good idea, that important dokument can be store here and can be use for references next time.
DD

OK guys,

just to bring an end to this discussion..

I am just coming from Aliens office and I got the PR.
This clerk there was very nice and didn't carred for anything, not even about my poor german..Alltogether It took 5 min's in his office.

regards
kamal deep singh

hi Sengkiang,

this document is not new. Most of us know it. This is the reason, why we discussion about PR. This Document ist good. But in detail, one of the requirement for PR is for GC-Holder impossible. Just see my article "Permanent Visa for GC-Holder impossible!!!" and my article "The new Zuwanderungsgesetz can not help us (GC-Holders)". sorry.

best regards

GC-Holder100

Dear All,
The PR topic is hot and no one can give us a general solution to all the worries that we have now. In case there is no new Regulation for GCs(Verordnung IT-ArGvr) or new Law (Zuwanderungsgesetzt) to be enacted, then am sure the issuing of PR will be on a case-to-case Basis. You cannot tell me that the Germany Behörde are not flexible at all. Those who have studied here can bare with me, there is no law that says you can work here after studying, but people have been getting work permits and Residence Permits on a case to case basis. I know this requires alot of efforts and support from the employer, Lawyer or even Priests etc.

Guys you got to be prepared for the battle, we have to get ready for the practical battle(go in for it, Apply) , not theory (Discussing laws)!!!. Even though Kds get the PR 2morrow dont you guys think you will get it too.

Hi Kds,

congratulation. But our problem is not the same like you. Because you have vaild workpermit, when you apply the PR. If we apply the PR, our workpermit is NO MORE valid. that is fact.

best regards

GC-Holder100

Dear kds:

Congratulations man!. You have got exactly what any of us want.

In my personal case, I guess your move was so important, because A..amt has considered the years you were GC as years valid for the PR.

But the PR is done, now go to make yourself a gift, you deserve it

Regards

YO

This is somehow pathetic.

Here we are, a reasonable lot of professionals, looking for small letters in obscure laws to find a loophole through which we could stay here.

It is true, we knew that this was going to last only 5 years. This GC law -well, turns out it is not even a law- was made on the final edge of the .com bubble, and I bet dead sure that on that point Germany knew for sure that they were buying time in order to postpone this decission and play "with all the cards on sight".

Now the cards are indeed visible. Millions of unemployed guys. A few thousand of GCs. No more bubble, and a market that is not quite clear whether is catching up or not. In this moment, Germany cannot plan to expand because of the pressure that means having near 5 million people on the unemployment rows, but again, Germany cannot dismiss yet any professional recruiting effort because the market may well catch up and in a couple of years may well mean Germany again running behind and looking really silly. Add to this the beautiful ability of the German politic system to turn common sense into "konzept" traps, and there we are.

At this point, guys, I am tired. Look, I am on my early 30s, with degrees and background. I can reasonably find my way in german, english, spanish and some other languages. I have a family and a career. I work for an American software company in reasonable expansion. This may sound stupid but... I respect myself. No false pride, just, well, you know, I know what my place is.

I am absolutely fed up with this discussions. I feel outraged. Ignored. Let me put this in perspective: I mean absolutely no disrespect to any ethnic group or religion, no way, but some time ago, reading on Der Spiegel how the AlQaeda cell was composed in Hamburg, there were guys there that lived out of Kindergeld and Sozialhilfe, guys there coming and going freely. Then, you are a professional, you pay taxes, you make your best for integrate yourself into this society, to understand the rules, to learn the language. You even give birth to a child and teach him within the cultural blueprints of this country. You dream, even.

And what do we get? This unbelievable, disrepectful treatment of just "ignoring" the case, let it sunset into despair, nobody cares really, we first have to stand to our political pride, defend our prestige, not let it go. Ah, yes, there are people anxious about what we are discussing... what was it? Ah, the Zuwanderung thing. Jeez, you can get lost in this coalition stuff, can't you? I mean, we are German politicians, we live through the imperative categories of Kant, therefore, we must stick to our "feinkonzept", and typecast the reality to make it fit our own absurdity. Is there any other way of dealing with it?

Is beautiful. Now the Greens are in a bravado posture, tired of the stubborness of CDU/CSU. Now Schilly starts menacing his own coalition partners, and drawing "red lines". Now. Beautiful. A law that was approved by technically half a vote, rejected by Supreme Court, and reentered identically to a reconfigured Parliament, jeeez, is that consumate Realpolitik or what? This would be even funny if it wasn't dramatic. As a template on how things really can get f...ed up here, no better example. It is that difficult to negotiate within Germans? Well, it seems so...

Honestly, you know what? I am sick and tired to be a mendicant for a place. I don't even know if I want to stay here. For sure, if I am sticking around is because here I am more useful to my actual employer, and because my son was born here, and I still have that stupid romanticism that seems long dead in this country. I would like to give some continuity to my son, to let him live with the smells, colors, weather and language under which he was born -a chance that many of us didn't have, by the way. Why, I am silly, right? After all, nobody seems to really care here about "Heimatland" any more, no matter how much we fill our Oktoberfest discurses every year.

Whatever. I am tired of this. I just don't give a damn any more over this political nightmares. The only thing I would appreciate, as a nice detail, is the acknowledgment: you cannot keep us here any more? Fine. Say it. JUST DAMN SAY IT. Take the step. Show to the world that you could not even manage to integrate 13k of willing professionals. Tell that your fair system is so strictly perfect that it becomes absurd.

There is one last barrier for me: I still believe that the system, Germany as a whole, is worth all this struggle. Somehow I still do. I also still believe that "rejection" means unability to deal with the unexpected within the frame of this hyper-structured, over-organized moods of the society. I have not -yet- believed that this is in fact meaning WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE (which will be terrible) but rather, WE JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT. Even then, I would expect a sincere "Sorry guys".

Will I break that last line of defense? I don't know. Sometimes I hope not. In any case, if that day comes I'm dead sure out of here.

Exhasperated,

Diego aka Sudaca.

kds, congratulations!
SudSud, great words... it was more then a conclusion...

What if the GC's spouse has a Arbeitsberechtigung after she successfully stayed here for 2 years. And she is working. If she can approach for PR as she has a Arbeitsberechtigung....


finally a new twist to this old topic

regards
jani

HI Kds,
Congratulations...
Jelda

Congrats kamal!!
Do u mind in sharing the entire procedure for PR with us??

cheers
pramod.

Diego (or SudSud):
You are soo right.
Do you think you could put together an "open letter" of sorts with these thoughts of yours, which all of us who share your opinion (I'd say, all) could sign and then send it to Mr. Schröder (and, hopefully with Detlef's help, to the press) -- after all, he was the one who personally invited all of us here.
I have spoken with many "natives" (read: voters) on the subject, and there haven't been any reactions other than outrage at the situation we've been put in. After they got informed about that situation, that is. And that's where we should put some effort: raising the awareness about our problems in the German society. We need to be active, man. Publicly.

As a side thought: There have been several reports about, and interviews with, the GC #1 in the past months. I mean, his GreenCard is in a museum in Bonn, and he still plans to leave Germany. He has studied here, got a doctorate meanwhile, and has worked for several years in Germany -- as he puts it, employers on the other side ot the pool treasure German education and work experience... more than the Germans do. And he doesn't want to wait for the Ausländerbehörde to escort him to the airport. So he leaves. So much for the "case-by-case" basis.

To kds: Congratulations! You have been living here for more than 6 (not 5) years, I assume, as there is a text in SGB, explicitly stating that work done under the conditions of a special Verordnung (like IT-ArGV) should not be counted against the 60-month-social-security-paying term that gives you right of Arbeitsberechtigung. Or you got lucky. Either way, enjoy! But please don't forget to sign the open letter, if Diego decides to write it :-)

Have a nice weekend!
Flado

Hi Kds,reddy,srikanth( and whoever knows about this) ,
I am also one who finished 5 yrs of work in germany - a mixture of normal work permit(2 yrs) + green card(3 yrs). I am curious to know about unbefristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis(I will call it uAU).What are the advantages of getting this uAU ? Also i read that to get this you need a unbefristet arbeitserlaubnis(i will call it uAR) which I dont have. Mine is a befristet arbeitserlaubnis. Can I ask for a uAR ? I have a feeling they may ask for a uAU when I ask for uAR. It is like a chicken and egg situation. Any thoughts/ideas ?

Gruß

Hello to All GC's n non-GC's IT workforce,

Like Kds, today I also got my unbefristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis (in short PR). I also had the similar situation like his. I understand from the oficials at Auslanderamt that I should inform Arbietsamt about this and they should change the nature of my work permit.

I find this forum very informative and useful especially to the new comers. For me, there was no german language test. All my communications with them happened in English !

Good luck for the future PR aspirants and keep updating the forum with your personel experience.

Hi Anand,
Do you have any answer to my questions I posted? Or better can you give me your contact email or tel.no so that I can clarify some things.

regards

Hello kds and others,
I have finished 5 yrs in Germany and would like to apply for a permanent Visa. I have an unlimited job contract but not an unlimited work permit. But the requirement for applying for a permanent Visa is an unlinited work permit. How can I get an unlimited Work Permit first ?
Thanks in Advance.

regards

try at ArbAmt
and sag uns Bescheid

Hi,

I am a green card holder, working in Germany from November 2001. I was also worked in Germany between august 1999 to June 2000 (10 Months) . This was under the scheme “international transfer of employees “. During this period I paid only tax. Whether this duration also considered, when I apply for long-term work permit?


With thanks

KA

Hi kds,

can you also submit to them things like proof of social insurance payments or do they check that themselves?

I've written a letter to BFA last week, asking them how much I should pay for the 10 months I was unemployed, I think I'm gonna get myself into the voluntary payments and see if it pays for, got some feelings that I will. Let's just wait for their answer, may be they will also provide a way to calculate this amount. I would let you know then.

D.

And as I gather that they need roughly 4 to 6 weeks to check that, meaning 1 to 1 1/2 month, I think one should submit all that nearly 2 months before the end of one's residence permit, right?

D.

Hi,
I came into the Gc program in the year sep 2000 & my GC will be expiring in 2005 sep. In between, I was arbeitlos for 1& a half months. One condition of permanant Residence is that one has to pay 60 months of pention. How abt my 1 & a half months then?.Should I contact the BFA regarding this?

Is the term referring to "SocialSecurity" same as pention,co's, heard some one referring that we should pay towards socialsecurity also for these 60 months.

would appreciate it if someone could put some light on this.

Thanks...

if you received arbeitslosgeld for this 1,5 month than your pension fond is also paid

No,I didn't arbeitlose geld. what should I do in that case?

I didn't register as unEmployed, in the arbeitsamt office,co's when I left the earlier company , I already had the offerletter from the new company. I used this 1 & a half months for finding apartment & relocating...
Thanks

kb,

from where did you get that info?

One thing looks illogical to me. If I had a GC for 5 years, I couldn't possibly satisfy 1st condition as in that case my GC would have already been expired. People are also mentioning 60 months of pension payments. How can I possibly have 60 months pension payments without my 5 year Aufenthaltstitel already expired ;)

Hi Guys,

Just looked at my Salary Certificate now,Did see some things,which I don't understand

[1]lfd.SolZuschlag
[2]AG-Zuschuß PV
What does these 2 mean? Iam paying somethings to this account.

So,as I said I was unemployed for 1 & a halfmonths & didn't pay my pention. Do I have to pay these 2 things which I stated above also along with the pention or is it sufficient I pay voluntarily the pention alone....

Thanks...

you should pay pension fond for one month.
I do not know where do you do it. Ask Finanzamt
it was stupid not to ask ALG. you would get *70% of your salary and pension fond paid.

"How can I possibly have 60 months pension payments without my 5 year Aufenthaltstitel already expired"

chick and egg thing
you should ask PR few months earlier
after is too late
it is usual for all Visas

Hi Dvd,

Thanks for ur answer. Will ask the "Bfa" where I should be paying it. you never told anything abt my other questions....
(Do I have to pay only this pention alone or the other contributions as well which I have referred.)
If you are ignorant abt those,then it is okay....