Hi all !
Unfortunately I have to tell you that changing job after 01.01.2005 will not be as easy but also not very difficult.

I will probably be the first one to undergo this procedure on Jan 1, 2005. You must follow these steps.

1. Get a signed contract "as soon as possible"
from your new employer.

2. Goto Auslanderbehorde and get
AuftenhaltErlaubnis (visa). You will need
- signed contract from new employer
- old work permit from your old employer
- anmeldbestatigung (registration)
- passport (definitely)

3. Now goto arbeitsamt. Get "Arbeitsbenehmigung"
(work permit) form. Fill it and get it
stamped from your employer, as soon as
possible. Give it to arbeitsamt quickly.

4. It will take 3-4 weeks depending upon
arbeitsamt to process your work permit. It is
therefore important that you apply for work
permit as soon as possible. Also let your
employer know that you will need 3-4 weeks. So
set the starting date of your new contract
accordingly.

Note : Any employer hiring workers without valid arbeiterlaubnis will be fined 500000 Euros. So no company will want to take any risk. Make sure you get keep enough time for processing your work permit. I think this is the only real difference compared to GC where you can get work permit almost immediately.

I will inform you if there are any changes in the above process.

Which is the source of your information ? Did you read
http://www.trust7.com/en/forums/visa_questions/switching_jobs_practical_experience_with_new_law
?

Hey man,
why do you give us the false information. What you said, is only rubbish.
1. After 01.01.2005 you get WP with AE only from ABH, NOT FROM Arbeitsamt!
2. According §46-2, the GC get unlimited WP. We have "Rechtsanspruch", It don't need a "Arbeitsmarkt-Prüfung". So why do we need to wait for 3-4 weeks to get the new WP.

http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/vam/vamController/CMSConversation/anzeigeContent;jsessionid=BUneI21mYwUhKqLzRyN5DXq0TKhTGs5yTaHJ9Rs93kIL8CAk7ErB!136137652?docId=63606&rqc=1&ls=false&ut=0



http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/content/de_DE/rheinland_pfalz_saarland/501/importierter_inhalt/pdf/Presseinfo_38_2004.pdf



http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/content/de_DE/bayern/843/importierter_inhalt/pdf/merkblatt_zwg.pdf

Please stop this bullshit of telling again and again 3-4 weeks waiting time.

If somebody got ArbeitserlaubnisZusicherung before 01.01.2005, there is no more waiting time when changing job, or whatsoever...

if Ausländerbehörde, Arbeitsamt tell something in that direction, ask for a written reason of that.

Guys, please read the documents at aufenthaltstitel.de web site, if you can not, involve a lawyer, but make sure you are aware of your legal rights!

Other than that happy new year!

und...

Ich wünsche euch allen und euren Familien schöne Festtage und eine erfolgreiches neues Jahr.

Hi !

What I said about new law in changing job is only after 01.01.2005 when Zusicherung will not be issued anymore. Its not my "own" interpretation but its the interpretation of ABH and AA people.

This week I have gone to arbeitsamt more than 4 times and ABH 2 times to inquire about the new law. I am changing my job on 01.01 so you can
imagine my urgency . I had a heated debate with
beamters regarding why they need a background check ? Its almost diffucult to convince these
people (the only next things will be going to court)

Yes I am fully aware that the RP and WP will be tied together. But I serously doubt if there will be NO market check by AA.

I will go to ABH once again on 03.01 to get probably the first RP/WP with new zuwanderungs gesetz.

My post is not to give anyone false information but to be aware of possible consequences. You can always argue with me and make your interpretation of the law here but its a different story in ABH and AA...

I will keep you guys informed.

gch100 is litle bit indecent but he is right.

After 1.1. ABH should do everything, maybe in one day, I don't know that.
Beside there is no ArbMarkt for GC that wants second job. Only for first one.

So, normaly when ausländer changes job after 1.1. he does everything at ABH.
ABH asks AA for ArbMarkt situation and act accordingly to answer from AA.

IF AUSLÄNDER IS GCLER OR SOMEBODY ELSE THAT NEEDS NO ARBMARKT PRÜFUNG (if one works more than 3 y in D or if he is in D more than 4 y) THEN RP AND WP SHOULD BE ISSUED THE SAME DAY.

But if ABH Beamter does not know that ein GCler does not need ArbMarkt check, then it could happend that you have to wait.
It could even happend that someones WP is turned down, but then Detlefs lawyer should get it on court.

Other than that happy new year!

und...

Ich wünsche euch allen und euren Familien schöne Festtage und eine erfolgreiches neues Jahr.

Hi DVD,
Yes you are right. This is what I want to say. Some ABH beamters may say Arbeit Markt prufung is
necessary even when a GC has worked for more than 3 years or is here more than 4 years.
This is the thing we have to clear out.

>This is the thing we have to clear out.


There is nothing to clear out.. the laws are clear.. a GC does not need "job market control" before a new work-permit is being issued (he needs it just for the first work-permit). Just do your application in a written form, write in German and point to the according paragraphs of the laws for getting your work-permit, in a kindly form. Enclose photocopies of the laws in your written application. If they still refuse it, then they must be stupid, go to court. In such a case, you have written evidence of their stupidy, so you wont lose the court case.

Good luck

Lacrima

PS: If you can not write in German, ask a friend who can do it or learn it by yourself as soon as possible. You will need it, if you want to spend some part of your life in Germany.

Hi Lacrima !
Where did you see that for GC there needs no
"job market control" after 2005.
Only in IT-Argv §6 it states such thing.
This special decree is valid only till 31.Dec.2004
So I dont think its perfectly clear. If you have any such bulletin or paragraphs that I am unaware of, plz let me know.

Hi
Sure it is clear. Here is the link of the law which explains how to handle the people who have their first work-permit according to IT-ARGV § 6, when the new law comes into effect.(in other words, after 1.1.2005)

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschv.html#46

Please take a look at the §46 (2), if an officer still wants to do a "job-market control" for a GCler after reading this. I am sorry but then I have doubts about his reasoning capabilities. Do you think that this is clear enough ?

Regards

Lacrima

Hey it is really pity and sad that Greencarder's come here to learn German laws and interpret them thoroughly so that they are going in the right direction but then when something is not understood at all one has to depend on the lawyers (LOL they itself have to learn first) to come to rescue us. Somehow this is the time I feel worth to mention that this whole GC idea of Germany put many of the foreigners in trouble. Shame on you who coordinated this GC program so badly that it is almost confusing to the ones who have to use it especially the officers in the municipality. This is the reason I am not at all confident about the immigration law and I am sure I will pack my bags soon instead of waiting for an ordeal. This is obsolutely nonsense none of my friends in USA did have to spend so much effort to keep track of changing visa rules and laws. I feel we already digged our pits and now finding a way to come out. Sorry if this message hurts anyone, this is just my after thought!

Laicecreama:
"Please take a look at the §46 (2), if an officer still wants to do a "job-market control" for a GCler after reading this. I am sorry but then I have doubts about his reasoning capabilities. Do you think that this is clear enough?"

No lacrima it is not clear enough for Beamter.
In deed it is never clear enough for Beamter because they do not read law. They get courses on new law and they never read original law.

However to make law clear there are some explanations:

Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen

Zu Absatz 1:
Die Vorschrift regelt die Weitergeltung von Zusicherungen der Erteilung einer Arbeitsgenehmigung,
die noch auf der Grundlage des geltenden Arbeitsgenehmigungsrechts, wie z. B. den
ausländischen IT-Fachkräften nach § 7 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch
qualifizierte ausländische Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie (ITArGV)
oder den Saisonkräften, für eine erst im Jahr 2005 beginnende Beschäftigung gegeben
worden sind. Die Vorschrift ist notwendig, weil § 103 AufenthG nur für erteilte Arbeitserlaubnisse
eine Fortgeltung als Zustimmung vorsieht.

Zu Absatz 2:
Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis
aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch - die dauernde
Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet.

@DvD
Thanks for poiting out to this "Verordnungsbegründung"
which is written a bit different from the "Gesetztext"

which One is considered by Beamters anyway :
Gesetztext" or "Verordnungsbegründung" ??

The funny thing about all of this is that the IT-ArGV is mentioned only in BeschV - which should be for Quote: "neueinreisenden Ausländern"
New people coming to German from 2005 onwards !!!!


If we take a look at the one for Inland ( i mean all GCs who are already in DE before Jan.01 2005 ) which is: http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschverfv.html

From: § 16 Übergangsregelung - BeschVerfV

(1) Eine vor dem Inkrafttreten dieser Verordnung erteilte Zusicherung der Erteilung einer Arbeitsgenehmigung gilt als Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit zu einer Erlaubnis zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung.

---No explicit mention of IT-ArGV here, but i understand that IT-ArGV is included , but this does not say anything about Unbefristet Erlaubnis.

also from the [ Begründung zu § 16 ] at
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschverfvinfos.html#16

Zu Absatz 1: says :
"
Die Bestimmung stellt sicher, dass von der Arbeitsverwaltung im Arbeitsgenehmigungsverfahren getroffene Vorentscheidungen auch nach dem 1. Januar 2005 fortwirken.
"
--this one is even worse, which means the Older GC-Law conditions still hold TRUE.

if we go to the Main LAW :

§ 104 Übergangsregelungen -- AufenthG

(2) Bei Ausländern, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis sind, ist es bei der Entscheidung über die Erteilung einer Niederlassungserlaubnis hinsichtlich der sprachlichen Kenntnisse nur erforderlich, dass sie sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen können. § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung.

--this one is so ambiguos, but i don't think GCs have "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" : mine is Aufenthaltsgenehmigung + Arbeitserlaubnis( or Arbeitsgenehmigung )


§ 105 Fortgeltung von Arbeitsgenehmigungen - AufenthG

(1) Eine vor Inkrafttreten dieses Gesetzes erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis behält ihre Gültigkeit bis zum Ablauf ihrer Geltungsdauer. Wird ein Aufenthaltstitel nach diesem Gesetz erteilt, gilt die Arbeitserlaubnis als Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit zur Aufnahme einer Beschäftigung. Die in der Arbeitserlaubnis enthaltenen Maßgaben sind in den Aufenthaltstitel zu übernehmen.


--So , as you see from above, § 105-AufenthG Contradicts with : § 46 - BeschV Absatz 2 which is :

Zu Absatz 2:
"(2) Die einer IT-Fachkraft nach § 6 Abs. 2 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch qualifizierte Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie erteilte befristete Arbeitserlaubnis gilt als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung fort.
"

Another Question is that, from § 46 - BeschV Absatz 2 ,
What does
this Quote:

"unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung"

MEAN ???

NE
or
do i get something else stamped on my Passport ???

because from the New Law , the are only 2 Aufenthaltstitel : befristet and NE

The texts on the second page of the visum are really a catalogue of wishful lyrics.

Apart from the funny side I think that we are now actually noticing / facing deeper problems which apparently exist for a longer time in german immigration offices.

My opinion is that for very long time the ABH was facing mostly non-german speaking people, with relatively little education. Not many of them were able to read the laws and to interpret them in correct way. Instead, they probably tried to compensate this with rude attitude in ABH. This could have influenced the stereotypes and conduct of the employees in the ABH.

Now, we have GCs which are educated, speak german, organized, and exchange information very fast via internet (not possible before, too).

So even if ABH made mistakes and wrong decisions before, nobody knew and probably nobody cared !

We are now hopefully aware of our legal rights, and wrong actions of the ABH will be hopefully rectified in interest of the Germany and the highly qualified immigrants.

pasko wrote:
"unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung" means NE ?

NO, this sentence means that you can continue to work in IT Area. In case you have a new job, you should have no problems to take that job.(because you have an "unbefristete Zustimmung") When you finish your 5 years during this "Unbefristete Zustimmung" time and still have a job then this means NE. There is no way to get NE before 5 years, unless you are married with a German citizen. (in this case, it is 3 years I guess)

and the comments of cedomir, I totally agree with you. The ABH officers are not gods who know everything. They are also human beings who may have (unfortunately) prejudices. They have to get used to this new generation of immigrants. We are all well aware of our rights.

Regards

Lacrima

pasko
--this one is so ambiguos, but i don't think GCs have "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" : mine is Aufenthaltsgenehmigung + Arbeitserlaubnis( or Arbeitsgenehmigung )

No, GC ussualy have AE not AG. some even got ABW but according to law it should be AE with Erlischt mit...
You got worse visa than normal. I got better because I have no Erlischt... in it.

--So , as you see from above, § 105-AufenthG Contradicts with : § 46 - BeschV Absatz 2

It does not contradicts. BeschV is simply stronger than AufenthG because it is made to change AufenthG for short transit period of time.
It would be contradiction if AufenthG and BeschV would be equally strong, but BeschV is stronger because of it's purpose.

pasko
--which One is considered by Beamters anyway :
Gesetztext" or "Verordnungsbegründung" ??

Most of Beamters die without ever seeing any of those two. They usually get some booklets where law is described.
But however Verordnungsbegründung is equally strong as Gesetztext because both is together accepted by Bundestag or Bundesrat.

Hi Lacrima and DvD, thanks for your Feedback..

My passport is stamped with
Aufenthaltsgenehmigung on the First page and
then follows another page with some Restrictions as follows:

I also do not have erlischt mit, but i have something that says that i am not allowed to work as self-employed or (chef) Geschäftsführer
it also goes on and says that i should get a Work-Permit in order to work.

es gibt keine Erlischt mit...the Erlischt mit.. is i guess printed on my Job-Contract.

In fact: i think they made a Mistake at first , because i can see in Passport that the word:
Aufenthaltgenehmigung is written on Top of Aufenthalterlaubnis - so it appears to me that theres a significant difference between the Two;

can somebody please list the Diferences between Aufenthalterlaubnis and Aufenthaltgenehmigung.
(i hope i got the spelling right )

This is important because from the Paragraph 9 of
the new Law (NE) , i see only Aufenthalterlaubnis being referred

Quote from :
§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis - AufenthG
one of the conditions for NE is
(1)
er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,

Ok Pasko,

Let's make the definitions clearer :
According to old law :

"Aufenthaltsgenehmigung" was a general name which was used for all residence permits. It is normal that your residence permits title is "Aufenthaltsgenehmigung". What really matters is the type of your residence permit.

"Aufenthaltserlaubnis" is a type of residence permit which is given to the people for working purposes. This is counted for NE.

"Aufenthalstbewilligung" is also a type of residence permit which is given for education purposes. This is not counted for NE. Because the nature of your stay is temporary, when you are studying in Germany. You can not convert your status to a permanent residence.


ok this was all according to the old law. Now with the new law, there will be only one type of limited residence permit and the name will be "Aufenthaltserlaubnis". They will put some explanation sentences whether it is for education purposes or for working purposes. Again if your residence permit is for education purposes, this will not be counted for NE.(even with the new law)

ok, coming to your question. A GC CAN NOT be Aufenthaltsbewilligung type of residence permit. If it is so, obviously ABH Officer made a mistake and you can ask for a correction.

Regards

Lacrima