Hi all,

we all talked about the spouse WP with the old law but does anyone knows how easy/simple/difficult/complicated it will be for GC spouse to get a WP with the new law?

Got concerned 'coz it looks like I will be able to apply for my wife's only next year and that means, no more Arbeitsamt but Ausländerbehörde.

Is there any article in the law talking about this specific subject?

D.

Hello,

Recently, I went to AA in order to obtain the wp for my wife although she has been here for only 22 months. Well the beamter pointed that it is not 24 months yet, inspite of my pleading the she needs it to find the job.

Then I asked him what will happen next year with the new law. He told me that he doesn't exactly know all the law but told us to go to ABH next year with print out of the current GC rule. He did not think that it would be a problem. However, I don't think it will be so easy. I am thinking of getting a lawyer to fight it next year.

Any other thoughts?

sun

help me to understand these law, it was not so easy to decrypt these law languages. I have pasted both the german and the english version:


(5) Unbeschadet des ¤ 4 Abs. 2 Satz 3 berechtigt die Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur AusüŸbung einer ErwerbstŠätigkeit,soweit der AusläŠnder, zu dem der Familiennachzug erfolgt, zur AusüŸbung einer ErwerbstäŠtigkeit berechtigt ist oder wenn die eheliche Lebensgemeinschaft seit mindestens zwei Jahren rechtmŠäig im Bundesgebiet bestanden
hat.

(5) Without prejudice to Section 4 (2), sentence 3, the residence permit shall entitle
the holder to pursue an economic occupation insofar as the foreigner who is being
joined by his or her dependents by way of subsequent immigration is entitled to
pursue an economic activity or if marital cohabitation has lawfully existed in the
Federal territory for at least two years.

So will the wp be issued to the spouses after the waiting period of 2 years with a job offer and subsequent check to prove that there are no German or european to fill the position. Or is the permit given without questions as in the original GC rule.

Sun

Hi sun,

to answer the question, as the "without prejudice" is significant, you have to give also the "Section 4 (2), sentence 3" (better in German version).

D.

Hi Nobody, here it is:

Section 4 (2)

(2) Ein Aufenthaltstitel berechtigt zur AusüŸbung einer ErwerbstäŠtigkeit, sofern es nach diesem Gesetz bestimmt ist oder der Aufenthaltstitel die AusŸbung der ErwerbstäŠtigkeit ausdrüŸcklich erlaubt. Jeder Aufenthaltstitel muss erkennen lassen, ob die AusŸübung einer ErwerbstäŠtigkeit erlaubt ist. Einem AuslŠänder, der keine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zum Zweck der BeschŠäftigung besitzt, kann die AusüŸbung einer BeschäŠftigung nur erlaubt werden, wenn die Bundesagentur füŸr Arbeit zugestimmt hat oder durch Rechtsverordnung bestimmt ist, dass die AusüŸbung der BeschŠfätigung ohne Zustimmung der Bundesagentur füŸr Arbeit zulŠässig ist. BeschräŠnkungen bei der Erteilung der Zustimmung durch die Bundesagentur füŸr Arbeit sind in den Aufenthaltstitel zu Ÿbernehmen.

I dunno if there's something hidden somewhere but it looks like things ain't changed much according to what you copy-pasted.

Maybe YO (wenn er ist nicht in Urlaub weit weg von PCs) can give us more info as he read something about the need of rushing on AlienInfo I think.

D.

Hi,

My wife got WP without any problems. WP has only one limitation - that she can not start with her own company. That happened after 3 years of living in Germany (GC, of course).

Cedomir B.

yeah Cedomir, we know that, but the question was about the new law, this small paper thing which will change our life in 3 days :-)

D.

PS Someone was doing the countdown some times ago, where he is at? :-)

Thanks Nobody and CedomirB for your inputs!

In the case that the new law is different (we still need the confirmation because I couldn't find the difference yet), can we not aruge citing the old GC rule because it was one of the conditions that we had when we entered Germany. In an ideal situation, the new rule should be same or better than the old rule. Don't you think so.

Of course it doesn't matter what we think is correct, the beamter has to think so!

sun

Hey Bro NoB

Yes. After three years of no Christmas hollydays I decided to stop and now I´m in hollydays.

But, this only means that I don´t go work, I work at home, but the people of Freenet don´t want I answer your messages ;-)

OK, I found the way.

1- Tomorrow I´m applying for my wife Arbeitsberechtigung. I have all the papers. I´ll told you tomorrow.

2- I don´t know what is the dude about the new law. The law says our wifes have the right to work, but doesn´t say what will they need for getting a work permit. I think (reading between lines for the answers in info4alien) you will need of course a written ask of an Arbeitgeber in Germany, the marriage certificate of my grandpa, a piece of clothe of Nefertiti and so on.

Please Nob, throw me an email where I can write you because it took me from 12 till now send this message and I´ll tell you my experiences with the AB people.

Keep your fingers crossed

Regards

YO

I got ArbBer for my wife after I raised Widerspruch.
As far as I understud, things with spouse will be much worse with new law meaning:
- spouse has to wait 2 instead of 1 year for work permit (with Vorrangprüfung)
- spouse has to wait 4 instead of 2 year for ArbBer (without Vorrangprüfung)

So for NoBody is important to send Antrag auf ArbBer even per post before 1.1. If you have not alles needed, you can collect it later, but you must send Antrag because if you do not do it, your wife will need another 2 years to get the same rights.

@DvD

Thanks dude, glad I read your post now, I just asked my wife to send all the papers now per post so we won't have to go through all this trouble next year with the new law. She went there at the beginning of the week but they told her there that they were neither receiving nor treating cases excpet if it's an urgent one, because of all the move they are doing. So sending per post will be a good trick, as we should do it before 1.1. Thanks a lot.

@YO

In fact, I never tool Xmas holidays, even now I'm working, except maybe last year, but it wasn't really Xmas holidays, as I was fired but still under contract :-)
But you can write me at my email account daolwin at hotmail dot com.
I keep my finger crossed for you, I still need to contact my lawyer to work out my case.

D.

Wow, wait a minute...

My wife arrived in 2000 and she had to wait for two years before she obtained a valid working permit (she has also university degree, but not in IT). Does this mean that she'll have to wait for another several years before she gets PR or unlimited WP also? Or this fist two 'quarantine years' count as well?

Because if the authoriries are going to further slow down the development of her career too, we're outa here... Thanks, but no thanks.

YO couldn't posted his message so he asked me to copy-past this:
-------------
This morning early I was walking the corridors of the Arbeitsamt of my town. After talking with a couple of women, I arrive to the correct office with two "gentle" ladies.

After identifying myself with my pass, searched that I was not illegal, they started to hear what I wanted.

After I asked them for the Arbeitsberechtigung for my wife, they have seen the notes, the copies of all, they murmled a little bit between them they decided to give my wife the Arbeitsgenehminung!!!!!!!!! I couldn´t believe what I heard and I thought I didn´t got the german good, and the first lady looked up the second and told her "aber Befristet oder?" "Nein - Unbefrístet" told the second.

So, I was prepared to fight, I was looking for a lawyer and surprisingly she have WP, better than mine, no employer tied and no time limitation.

Please Nob, just print the note, add the copies of the papers and ask your wife to sign and run to a post office tomorrow and send the letter to the Arbeitsamt with certification of date!!!.
----------------

D.

glide:
My wife arrived in 2000 and she had to wait for two years before she obtained a valid working permit (she has also university degree, but not in IT). Does this mean that she'll have to wait for another several years before she gets PR or unlimited WP also? Or this fist two 'quarantine years' count as well?



No.You got it all wrong.
First, your wife can work after 1 year in De and after 2 y she could get AB not only WP.
So if you do not aply for AB tomorow, she will get same rights with new law after 4 y in D.

But if she works allready and doesn't plan to change job, than it does not make big difference.

Hi! Nobody,

Could you please tell me what kind of form did you fill for your wife work permit application, because everytime I go to AA, I'm always given the form needed to be filled by Arbeitgeber. Or did you just wrote a letter? And also what other documents did you include?

Thanks,
sun

--Could you please tell me what kind of form did you fill for your wife work permit application, because everytime I go to AA, I'm always given the form needed to be filled by Arbeitgeber. Or did you just wrote a letter? And also what other documents did you include?

Thanks,
sun


for AB you use the same form, but without firma name.
you need your and your wife RP, mariage certifikat, and ABH should give you document that says that she is here more than 2 years legally.

If you can not collect all, just send Antrag per post and ask what else do they need.

you have 100 of Antrag examples here in forum

Here is the extract from section 1-4 page 8 from the english version FAQ : http://www.integrationsbeauftragte.de/download/Zuwanderungsgesetz_Fragen_Antworten_eng.pdf

There is one change that affects family members who are late-comers: the residence permit
of your late-coming family members entitles you in the same way, but differently to the rule
that hitherto applied, to be gainfully employed and indeed with immediate effect inasmuch as
you yourself are entitled to be gainfully employed. This also means that the members of your
family have unrestricted access to the labour market if you are permitted to carry out gainful
employment.

Over and above this, your spouse may work without restriction if your life-long marital status
in the Federal Republic has been lawfully upheld for at least two years.

Would like to know your views.

sun

OK I was wrong. I did not saw OR.
This means spouse can work immidiately instead of after 1 year before.
But second part that says that after 2 years spouse needs no JobMarktCheck is new for me.
Where is it in law?

Thanks for your quick response DVD. I had the link in my post for the source. http://www.integrationsbeauftragte.de/download/Zuwanderungsgesetz_Fragen_Antworten_eng.pdf

I do not exactly know which law does it belong to, but I think it would be good to know that before confornting at ABH.

sun

I saw that. It is AufenthG § 29.
When I think again second part that I said was right because this things include JMCheck.
So one spouse needs:
- 0 years instead of 1 to get job with JMC,
- 4 years instead of 2 to get job without JMC.

Dvd,

Where is the 4 years mentioned? It is not mentioned in Section 29. And in your interpretation, I don't see any mention about 2 years.

sun

4 years are needed to skip JMC if one does not work, 3 if he works. It is in BeschVerfV § 9.
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschverfv.html#9
2 years are only if Ehepartner is not alowed to work, meaning if somebody marries someone in De who can not work, then he has to wait 2 years before he can work.

DVD,
I'm not sure about the 4 year period you mentioned. According with the latest link you posted to the VwV ZuwG in the paragraph 29.5.2.3 you'll find this:
"Ist für den Arbeitsmarktzugang des Ausländers, zu dem der Nachzug stattfindet, keine Zu-stimmung
der Bundesagentur für Arbeit erforderlich, ist dem nachziehenden Ausländer e-benfalls
ohne Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit die Ausübung einer Beschäftigung
zu gestatten. Bedurfte oder bedarf der Arbeitsmarktzugang des Ausländers, zu dem der
Nachzug stattfindet, der Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit, so gilt dasselbe für den
nachziehenden Ausländer."

To me this says that your spouse work permit is heavily dependent on your type of work permit. I also read that FAQ around Zuwg and that is saying quite the same. The thing that I dont know is where they will consider us, GC, in with or without BA approval.
Cheers

GC needs no ArbMarktCheck. According to that spouse needs also no AMC.

Hi,

After all of the posts in this thread, I understand that the spouse can get the WP immediately, am I wrong?

Is this also valid for the greencard holders, who came to DEU before 1.1.2005?

KaaN

GC needs no AMC for second job, doesn't matter before or after 1.1.

Is it then correct that all the spouse of GCs automatically qualify for the workpermit without the market check?

Will there be requirement for the spouse to work on the same field as GC, that would be quite stupid.

sun

yes
no

problem I see is only if Beamter does not know it, but spouse has acctually better WP because she can do IT and everything else.

I meant the spouses of the greencard holder, who came before 1.1. )

KaaN

I thought that the antrag for unlimited work permit for my wife should have the following arguments:

1. Spouse has same working right as the principle (GC) applicant (According to §29.5.2.3)
2. Old GCs need no Arbeits Markt Check
3. GCs have uliminated work permit (According to BeschV §46)

But I am missing Quelle for the second argument, Where does it say in the gesetz that the GCs do not require Arbeit Markt Check? Although it is generally understood, does anyone know where it is written. Or can I use some indirect implications?

It will be very helpful. Thanks

sun

1.Spouse has same working right as the principle (GC) applicant (According to §29.5.2.3)

How do we infer the "same working right" from the
law?


§29.5 says :

(5) Unbeschadet des § 4 Abs. 2 Satz 3 berechtigt die Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit, soweit der Ausländer, zu dem der Familiennachzug erfolgt, zur Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit berechtigt ist oder wenn die eheliche Lebensgemeinschaft seit mindestens zwei Jahren rechtmäßig im Bundesgebiet bestanden hat.

Which means ( I think ) without violating § 4 Abs. 2 Satz 3 a spouse can get working permit right
away.The law does not mention about the type of
permit of the working spouse so what kind of limitations we have is not important for our wives/husbands.

§ 4 Abs. 2 Satz 3 :

"Einem Ausländer, der keine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zum Zweck der Beschäftigung besitzt, kann die Ausübung einer Beschäftigung nur erlaubt werden, wenn die Bundesagentur für Arbeit zugestimmt hat oder durch Rechtsverordnung bestimmt ist, dass die Ausübung der Beschäftigung ohne Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit zulässig ist."

This abs. delegates the decision to "Bundesagentur für Arbeit" (unless it writes somewhere that
for spouses Bundesagentur zustimmung is not necessary.Is there something like that? )

Then §18 and §39 (which refers to each other)
explains whether "Bundesagentur für Arbeit"
will accept or not.
I interpreted §39.2.1 (with my limited German)
as : BA. will give the Zustimmung according
to Arbeitsmarkts situation wrt. persons profession.

So my understanding of the whole story is :
Our spouse has the right the work right
away if Bundesagentur fuer Arbeit thinks that
her/his access to Job market does not have negative
effects (for German population of course).

The law language is pretty complex.It is
hard to follow.It looks like some of us
will need to get professional help to
get our rights (and to find out if we have
any rights )

Not to mislead people who read this thread
I should say that I had an error in interpreting
the law.

§29.5 does not say "without violating"
it says "regardless of" so §4 is not applicable,
which improves the situation a lot.

Note :I wrote my experience in Auslaenderbehoerde about spouse WP in a different thread.

Hi Yo, Nobody & others,
whats the new for WP for Spouse? Does it allow the spouse to work even if she is not more than one year?
Thanks