Did you guys already see this ?
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/73808

Looks like the big coalition wants to give to highly qualified labour force directly unlimited residence permit(NE), when 50K job offer is available. Maybe some of us GCers will get NE without waiting 5 years period, in case this law comes into effect. Let's see..

As I wrote in my previous post, this summer there would be couple of surprises in immigration laws. Let's just wait and see.

I don't think it will make any difference, the Indians and chinese know that German society is hostile towards foreigner, or people looking like them :-)

It may attract some eastern block guys, but even that I doubt, they have expanding economies in their homeland.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion, here is another link.

http://www.manager-magazin.de/unternehmen/mittelstand/0,2828,419489,00.html

Cheers

Hi ,

So will it be implemented immediately in Herbst or one has to wait till 1 Jan 2007.

Bye

Source :-
http://www.cducsu.de/section__2/subsection__1/id__12561/Meldungen.aspx


02. Juni 2006
Reinhard Grindel
Dr. Hans-Peter Uhl

Spiegel-Meldung über Zuwanderungsvereinfachung von ausländischen Fachkräften unzutreffend

Beratungen über einen entsprechenden Gesetzentwurf zur Umsetzung von EU-Richtlinien sind noch in vollem Gange

Anlässlich der Vorabmeldung von Spiegel-Online "Regierung will Zuwanderung von Fachkräften vereinfachen" erklären der innenpolitische Sprecher der CDU/CSU-Bundestagsfraktion, Dr. Hans-Peter Uhl MdB sowie der zuständige Berichterstatter, Reinhard Grindel MdB:


Die Meldung von Spiegel-Online über eine Verabredung mit den Sozialdemokraten zur Vereinfachung der Zuwanderung von Fachkräften ist falsch. Die Beratungen über einen entsprechenden Gesetzentwurf zur Umsetzung von EU-Richtlinien sind noch in vollem Gange.

Richtig ist, dass wir im Kampf um die besten Köpfe deutlich mehr tun müssen!

Das Ausländerrecht ist jedoch nicht das geeignete Instrument um dieses Ziel zu erreichen. Anreize für Hochqualifizierte können nur geschaffen werden, wenn die wirtschaftlichen Rahmenbedingungen, die Forschungsmöglichkeiten und das Gehaltsniveau entsprechend verbessert werden.

Falsch ist, dass bei den Aufenthaltsvoraussetzungen für Selbständige eine Halbierung der Arbeitsplätze sowie der Investitionssumme verabredet worden ist. Eine solche Maßnahme ist auch nicht erforderlich. Derzeit gibt es nämlich keine starren Grenzen, sondern lediglich Richtgrößen für die Verwaltung, von denen jederzeit nach unten abgewichen werden kann.

Denkbar wäre jedoch, bei angestellten Hochqualifizierten zum Erhalt einer Niederlassungserlaubnis die Einkommensgrenze von derzeit ca. 84.000 auf ca. 63.000 € zu senken.

This stuff will be like a ping-pong game... The question is that how many people will be affected when such an NE is offered.

AufenthG §19 (NE for hi-qualified) must apply only a few people in Germany, probably as much as the number of actual Greencards. Say it is max. 10.000. Is it worth having a law valid for 10.000 people in Germany?

German government can get the actual number through their internal information system. Reducing the the min. salary for §19 [1] to 50k will immediately increase this number, but shouldn't increase too much. I don't think there are so many highly qualified foreigners in Germany.

Remember our discussions here in 2004. Everybody was so pessimistic because of the 5-year limit of Greencard. Now those days gone away. All GCs with 5 years are taking NE now.

Klenze17.

[1] http://trust7.com/en/forums/visa_questions/ne_salary_question/re_ne_salary_question__5

Hi Anyone has an update to this?

Appreciate

JIM

The Bundestag is on Holiday until September, so there won't be any major changes until then.

New things regarding this subject:

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/1319.html

It seems that the current coalition intends to decrease minimum annual gross income requirement for immediate NE for Highly-Qualified workforces, from 84.000 to 64.000 Euro.

I really wonder how many foreigns in Germany earn even these 64.000 Euro...

Klenze17.

Pläne der großen Koalition sehen vor, dass Berufsanfänger künftig nicht mehr 84.000 Euro, sondern 64.000 Euro brutto im Jahr verdienen müssen, um eine Daueraufenthaltserlaubnis zu erhalten.

64.000 im Jahr als Berufsanfänger, nicht schlecht!!

"64.000 im Jahr als Berufsanfänger, nicht schlecht!!"

Exactly.. Politicians should understand one thing. Private sector capitalists are not as generous as we tax payers are to the politicians.

But another thing to consider for the ones who are already in Germany and who have already a valid work-permit(Most of the members of trust7 basicly are in this category.) If they set a lower limit(lower than 64K) for the immigration of the highly qualified people, this will only mean for the experts of german labour market(which we are also part of) lower salaries or less chances for better salary conditions in the future, as employers can simply take someone from abroad who can do the job for 50K e.g. instead of paying the in-house expert 60K. A lower salary limit means only for the capital owners more profit and for the labour which is already in Germany lower salaries. I just wanted to mention another aspect of this discussion for the GCers who are already part of the German labour market.. ;)

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi

64K is already added to immigration law or it still under discussion ?

If 64K is enough for NE then many of us (GC) can apply for NE !!!

@engineer

Read carefully. So far, it is only a proposition.

Lacrima wrote:

If they set a lower limit(lower than 64K) for the immigration of the highly qualified people, this will only mean for the experts of german labour market(which we are also part of) lower salaries or less chances for better salary conditions in the future

Don't take only this law for reference. This law defines an extraordinary case. Highly-qualified, management positions defined by §19 are very seldom in Germany [1].

A lower salary limit means only for the capital owners more profit and for the labour which is already in Germany lower salaries.

I don't think so. We can look to the other side of medallion. Defining a lower salary by law might cause less salary overall (which I don't think it will happen) but saves the jobs. The higher a salary is, the higher the chances to get laid off. Our companies finally live thru profits.

In the current conjuncture of Germany, saving a job is much more important than having more salary, even if we are highly-qualified (actually we are not, at least according to [1]). Everybody wants money, no question about it, but psychological effect of being jobless is also to be considered.

My last word is, they have to reduce 84K stated in §19 far below to 50K. §19 does not cover positions similar to GClers, they must do that at least. IMHO all these won't affect our positions, instead those will save us. Even 64K is very high salary in current economical situation of Germany. We must not forget that the unemployment rate among foreigns is double the national rate.

The improvements I offered in previous paragraph is still much better than IT-ArGV. We must remember the discussions we had here in 2004, before ZuwG. After 5th year, our situation was unclear. Having a NE with 50K only is simply a clear improvement.

Klenze17.

[1] http://trust7.com/en/forums/press/evaluation_of_the_immigration_law. In the link I have given, p.36 states that in 2005 only 700-900 foreigns had NE wrt. AufenthG §19.

Klenze17 wrote:
"The improvements I offered in previous paragraph is still much better than IT-ArGV. We must remember the discussions we had here in 2004, before ZuwG. After 5th year, our situation was unclear. Having a NE with 50K only is simply a clear improvement."

I totally understand your point of view Klenze ;) It is a pure liberal position which simply says: let the companies make more profits by exploiting the labour, that is how we can survive. This is not necessarily true in all cases. Free markets need to be "regulated" and shouldnt be left that "free", otherwise the labour will be exploited inhumanly after some point. This is proven and accepted also by many free market liberalists.

I dont know the others but I personally would prefer to wait 5 years to get my NE, instead of getting my NE right away today with 50K salary limit where I would need to compete with bunch of others from abroad in the German labour market who will eager to work for less money.

Regards,

Lacrima

Does anyone know when this lowering of the salary limit will be further discussed? I got feedback that the Parlement will resume in Sept and perhaps then will this proposal be considered again?

Thanks
JIM

Lacrima wrote:
It is a pure liberal position which simply says: let the companies make more profits by exploiting the labour, that is how we can survive.

Definitely true. I must point again, that what I write is not my opinion, instead, only my observation.

Germany is in recession since 2000: budget deficit (Haushaltsdefizit) is high. Therefore they reduced benefits (Eigenheimzulage, Riester Rente, Hartz IV) and raised taxes (MwSt). Population is aging; more people are retiree, more people are jobless. These increase the taxes we have to pay. The companies too, because we cost more, due to economical situation and population. Then they think of deployment of workforces and job cuts.

This troubles situation of highly-qualified foreigns in Germany. The printed copy of Sept. Issue of Geld Idee ( http://www.geldidee.de/ ) says that Germany is almost the only developed country in the world, where outgoing highly-qualified people are more than incoming [1]. This makes our position also more critical.

In this situation, from a foreign point of view, defining a NE for HQ-Labour with a lower salary limit suits to the current recession and would save the jobs.

jimDav88 wrote:
Does anyone know when this lowering of the salary limit will be further discussed? I got feedback that the Parlement will resume in Sept and perhaps then will this proposal be considered again?

There are proposals and news already. In general, 64K is proposed for AufenthG §19 (NE für Hochqualifizierte).

To all forum audiences: We can create a public opinion until September for AufenthG §19 [2]. It has a very restricted usage [3]. It is not covering highly-qualified people like us (GClers). 84K barrier could be reduced because it is not realistic.

Klenze17.

[1] Geld Idee, printed copy of Sept. issue, pp 14-15 (Auswanderung - Und Tschüß!).
[2] http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#19
[3] http://www.bmi.bund.de/Internet/Content/Common/Anlagen/Themen/Auslaender__Fluechtlinge__Asyl/DatenundFakten/Evaluierungsbericht__zum__Zuwanderungsgesetz,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/Evaluierungsbericht_zum_Zuwanderungsgesetz.pdf . p.36 states that in 2005 only 700-900 foreigns had NE wrt. AufenthG §19.

"Foreigners welcome! - The consequences of falling net immigration for Germany

Once again, fewer foreigners immigrated to Germany in 2005. A migration surplus of merely 79,000 people, i.e. a 71% decline compared with 2001, has led to a situation where mortality figures could not be offset for the third consecutive year and, consequently, the population shrank by roughly 100,000. Not only are fewer foreigners coming to Germany but also, and just as worrying, more and more Germans are leaving to find (better paid) work abroad. "

The article is quite long and continues at the web site of Deutsche Bank research.

Source:
http://www.dbresearch.com/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB;jsessionid=1a5:44e702cc:6edcd4bb76775d23?rwkey=u10256027


From my own experience recruiting in London, people who have been working in the UK under a normal work permit and apply and get an HSMP permit are more willing to change as soon as a better job comes along. Germany is not as dynamic, but the negotiation between employer and employee becomes more level. Germany has significant disadvantages to attract the right people due to its job market structure (very hard and risky to hire), the language barriers and its tax and social security level when compared to english speaking countries or those offering really high salaries. I think 64k is a sensible limit, 50k would probably make it more attractive but the real problem is that (and please don't get me wrong) ANYBODY can make 50k. It doesn't say anything about the skills, it would make much more sense to give someone the NE to someone with a Phd in high energy physics earning 25k, than someone who convincingly lied on the cv and after a month is fired, that's precisely why the HSMP has a one year revision policy...but I digress.

-a