Dear Friends,

How about the career growth prospects for non-natives in German IT companies ?.

Ofcourse, I understand that language would be a barrier. Even, if we learn to speak fairly but still we can't equate with native speakers.

Apart from language, are there equal/enough/fair opportunities for growth? Or, Will we just remain as programmers or so called Software Engineers, till the end.

This question is plaguing my mind for sometime...

I am currently in the position of Technical Leader in my parent company in India and sure to become Technical Manager in another two years.

When I started looking for job here, I realized that I can't get something equal (Technical Leader) here. I have only the option to be a Software Engineer, noting more than that.

Dear guys, kindly share your experiences relevant to career prospects, salary hike etc. I am sure those would be valuable for me and other new job seekers...

Thanks & Regards
Kumaran

Hi Kumaran,
Managerial positions occupancy in Germany for non germans is a very challenging task.Generally very difficult (but not impossible) for people coming from Asia,unless you have been transferred from a US concern to the branch office in DE.Another way being leading the german branch of your asian firm.
Other than these two possibilities,you can acheive a position of a department leader(abteilung leiter) ,managing people but for that you would require a very long stint in the company.Remember grey hairs have values here ;))
Unlike US,culturally these positions belong to natives.
But with good performance,talent and of course a lot of patience!,,, its possible.
ciao
GnR

Hi Kumaran,

German economy is a technology oriented economy and I suppose German companies generally recruit qualified foreigners for technical roles. Secondly, the service industry here is quite small when compared to that of the US or other countries. So you might not be able to see that spectrum of jobs in the market.

Ofcourse, for the kind of role you are talking about (Leader / Manager) means lot of communication is required with colleagues / customers. If you can pretty much handle that you have a fair chance.

From an Indian perspective, it would be a good idea if you look for jobs at MNCs that have a lot do with say America or Asia. Your chances for growth should be better there.

Best of luck!.

AB

I think there isn't too many manager position to be filled in. My current manager has worked for the company for more than 10 years and reached his position now. To be honest, I don't see too much chance.
You are really great hoping to get manager position here, freshly from indian :-)
Anyway good luck.

Yo Kumaran,

Think about it..... You can not speak German, so how good of a manager would you be? Communication is the number one thing for a manager. Imagine if a German went to India and could not speak English or Hindi or whatever the local language would be. How good would he be?

Before you pack up your rice bags and go to another country and whereever you go, you should first think about many other things like language, culture etc, before you think about a job or career in that country.

I have to laugh at all of the Indians who want to come here and then when they are here cry like babies. The are not nice to me. They treat me like a foreier. bla bla bla....

Think about it. Why do you think Germans MAY not like foreigners coming so much? Many come and can not speak the language and do not even try nor care about the country. Even in this forum. Most CGers can not speak good German. Why? You say you are smart!! You have lived here for 3, 4 years!!!!!! That is because you have no interest in this country, only interest in getting something from this country. NE, citizenship, money! Why would you want to be a citizen in a place where you can not speak the language at a proper level and you can not speak the language only for one reason; You are too lazy to learn!!!!

Kumaran it would be best if you pick another place to manage!!!!

Later,
Cool Dude

p.s. This post is not meant to hurt anyone, but just to speak the truth.......

Kumaren,

Are you in India or Germany? This post sounds like you are in India, but you made another post in the forum asking help for a job and say you are in Germany for 2 years. If you have been in Germany for 2 years, which you wrote in the other post, do you really need to ask this question? You should already know!!!!

And what does this mean? "I have only the option to be a Software Engineer, noting more than that." Nothing more than that!!!!! But you have asked in another post that people from this forum, who are just "Nothing more than small little Software Engineers", to help you find a job........ What a baby......

Dude stay in India and if you are in Germany go back to India!!!!!!

Later,
Cool Dude!

Dear Cool Dude,
I understand you completely. But I would like to say that you had perceived my postings in a wrong context, that might be because of your past experiences and implied perceptions.

German is not an easy or simple language to master it just like that. It is so rich in its expressions (compared to English), that it takes decades to master it. That is the reason even after 2 or 3 years of stay, still we are finding hard to speak fluently. Not because of laziness as you might tend to think.

Any way this language barrier is like a double ended sward, people also find it difficult and Germany also finds it difficult to get talents from outside.

>Why do you think Germans MAY not like foreigners >coming so much

I did not say this anywhere in my post. These are all the result of your implicit perceptions.

I am currently working in Germany, but I don't come under direct German management. That is the reason, I wanted to get some knowledge from others experience about carrer prospects under direct German management.

I never deny the importance of language nor complete integration with the society :-))

What ever I said about Software Engineer is just out of momentary (self) frustration, that's it. It is not certainly for demeaning the job.

Dude, I hope now you take it cooly.

Regards
Kumaran

Hi Cool Dude,

Your sentence

"Before you pack up your rice bags and go to another country and whereever you go, "

has a bit of racist tones. So please avoid it next time. But your other comments about indians are most of the times on target.

Cheers
Rajesh

Hi Coool Dude,
welcome back!!
u r again on india(n) bashing!!.

Hi Kumaran, pl. ignore Coool Dude, poor guy, he has lost his job to an Indian.

regards,
kalakkal

Yo raj, Did not try to sound racist. Do not be so sensitive!!! I mean all Germans wear Lederhosen, oder? Lighten up a little.....

@kalakkal Did not loose my job to an Indian...... A matter of fact many companies do not waste time on hiring Indians and no I am not bashing. They got sick of talking to Indians who say, I have good German, but can not even order a meal and also Indians who are 23 or 25 years old and have more on a CV than is possible after working 20 years in IT. I am not saying all Inidans, but many. This is true. The Indians apply for every job...... I mean they get CVs from same people for DB Admins, Network Admins, Java Programmers, Support, SAP, bla bla bla. Come on, you can not have so much experience and be an expert in everything.... It takes 5 - 10 years min. to be good and have good experience in any one of these areas. If they can spell the word or see it in the internet, then they are expert in it. Just look at the article about Indians getting priority for visa in Frankfurt. That is not true, but the Indian paper wrote this. It is for everyone Think about it!!!!!

Later,
Cool Dude!

I dont think this is a place where need to comment on once talent.
I request the moderator to intervene and close the thread.

A

Cool dude , U r very cool.

This week end please try to kick out some indians from germany ..That would be a fun job for u .

If still no luck , Please try to become like them u will achieve ur goal .

Have a nice week end ....hahahahahahahahahahaha


BYE

Yo AJAY,

You can not shut down something just because you do not like it!!!!!!!!!!

You can not stop reality!

Later,
Cool Dude!

very funny!!
ha ha ha.
Coool Dude, Thanks to you,
my weekend has started in funnier note.

Hi ajay,

I just want you to know, that I watch it, but I do not see why to close the thread.

Believe me, the older members of trust7 know other messages from 'Cool Dude' and in the past, I already 'fired' him out of the forum. But this time...

I still not agree with the 'later cool dude', mostly, but I and you and everybody has to accept, that there are different points of view.

Just try to take it with a sense of humor, which is a sign for a very selfassured and educated person :-)

A nice weekend to all of you
Detlef

what I really do not like about India is caste system, but I can understand that guy from india with 25 has much more experience than german.
in India school system is better than in Germany. Actually it is everywhere better than in Germany. Germany does prodece very good Ings and experts but with age of 30-35.
In India it is achievable with 22.
German system is very good for companies but not for people.
It is true that indians have with same age 2 times more experience than germans but that is becuase of slow school system in D.

@DVD

Where does this caste system come in between..for that matter of fact there are also different categories in christianity and islam. Why dont people talk about them.

Anyway We are not debating here about what people like about india and what not. Pls dont post ur own opinions about some ethnics and countries.

Greetings,
vamsi.

coool dude is a little bit too extreme, but I did see some truth in what he said.
One friend said he has got the lecture in his university and didn't come to the class, finally he failed almost all the exam :-).

So be decent and talk only if it is necessary. Show quality in working and result, not in talking.


have a nice weekend!

Hi you Guys,

as I said before don't waste your time in germany. I speak fluently german, like a native, no accent, know thje german way of life and have more than 20 years experience and ma not from india and can tell you that foreigners have NO chance to get in higher positions. I have had myself departmant manager positions with big german companies, it is a waste of time and effort. I am freelancing right now as a manger for hire and am hired to put out fires, which is ok and pays well, I will leave gernmany in 6 month, I am sure all the russian and eastern european immigrants have nothing to complain here, they blend in and are much more savy than any of you guys can ever be.
A bit about my current projekt which has also to do with india. The software was written in india, some DB with SQL stuff, they have sent a couple of indian guys to install it. They have been sending daily builds from india, no version control, no supervison and and ... and the poor guys here suppose to make it run, I don't even want to know what the daily phone bills to india have been. And then of course the inidan guys are treated badly, even from the people who have nothing to do with the project...
The guys have been put in some 2 star hotels in a small town with no help, absolutly no help with their daily lives... and I thought slavery was a thing of a past.
Wake up guys this is not a country where you can make careers, even their own women can't do.
All this is in a small town in Bavaria, south. I am not even sure if it is even safe for these guys with all the neonazis in the south.
And some of you want rto become Managers?? Well, it may be a good joke.


Cheers

Hi Ajay, hi *,

now you can see what I mean. I just read the message of JJ and how he speaks about Germany, and I am a German and I do not agree with him, but I do not delete this message!

I do not even give a comment.

Have a nice weekend
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I know you are a very nice person and very much apart from the general german society. I wonder sometimes how is it that you have not emmigrated, oh well. With no offense, you don't agree with me ok but you know that there is a distrust to foreigners and germans don't like to "take orders" from foreigners, they are not used to it. Like or not germany is the least multi culture society in europe. Foreigner live and work in a parallel society here and that is the way the main politics want it, why would they oppose to a antidiscrimination law here that has SOME teeth to it. Germany's exposure to foreigners has been and is mostly to the turkish community, a blue collar work force. Germany is not used to white collar foreign worker. One interesting point, the biggest german hitech company practices different hiring and promotion policy in the US than in germnay, out of fear of lawsuits, an antidiscrimnation law with TEETH would make a difference and in the long term be very benificial to germany.
BTW I see it as joke that the government can't do anything against Neonazis, as is being said. I thought they were very quick to raid suspected multiple islamist places, have you heard of any raids on the Neonazis?? hmm, I haven't. It looks like they will be part of the future government in germany, openly and not disguised in some of the existing parties. Please don't take all this personal, again I have high opinions of you.


Cheers

Hi JJ,

honestly, I would like to discuss this a llttle bit more with you, but I am really busy at the moment. Maybe there is a chance to meet each other!? trust7 is going to organize a meeting in Berlin, in March or April.

Thanks a lot for your view of my person and indeed, I often think about leaving Germany ;-)

But I did not find the 'Perfect Country' yet, even if have seen some very nice places in the USA and New Zealand.

It is also a big difference if you live in a small town or in a big city. Berlin is a quite multiculturale place meanwhile.

You know, besides the things you are criticizing, there are 'some' good things in Germany, but I agree, from our nature, we are not so friendly like others. I do not know why, but it seems, that we need some help to laugh.

By
Detlef

Hi
Relating to JJ's Neo-Nazi reference, it might be true.Hardly one seems any effort from the government to curtail of control the public 'wiederstandbewegung'.
Somehow its an issue of concern.
Das kleines 'KOKO'dil cool dude also seems to be somewhat in a good mood ;)
anyways have a nice weekend.
ciao
GnR

Greetings,

Career growth for non-natives in Germany might be possible. But 10 times slower and harder than a native Germany and germans are used to the blue collar workers since 70s. White collar workers like GCers are something unusual for them. Some time ago i saw a gif file at a web site if i am not mistaken, i do not remember where.Summary of that gif at the end of this posting.When i look to that classification, the most fitting one for myself is "Gastarbeiter"

Once i was on lunch with my german colleagues, i told i may plan to stay in Germany after 5 years. That was the biggest mistake of my life i believe. I better shut my mouth there. He said "hmm, interesting". After that day we never had lunch or anything more socialized than work with him

After my 3 years here, i decided that there are some "unwritten rules and laws to be used for foreigners" in Germany which are used, known by the majority of community. This may change or this may not change, i really do not know. But this is the reality of the place where we live in.
It would be different may be at 2050 which is a bit late for myself.

Most of the natives complaining about the 'bad and easy' way that non-natives are naturalised and given citizenship, the rights foreigners have etc. So far so good... If you believe that is not the best way to naturalise non-natives, giving citizenship, why don't you change the way you are doing things ??? As an example, please look at Switzerland, they meet together in a big auditorium and vote for the citizenship of a foreigner(similar practices are very much used there)

Some politicians(they call themselves like that) on tv discussing that prayer services in mosques should be all in german language, removing english lessons froms schools etc. I want to ask here, where is your next stop guys

Last year i was sitting in a taxi and i made a mistake of asking the taxi driver where he came from. He(turkish guy) told me he will answer my question but also added he is sick answering the same question since 25 years, 3000 times in Germany. He told that he completed all his education in Germany, having german citizenship, german driving license, german wife, no criminal records etc. He said he was really tired of the same question being asked 3000 times. I agree himself. After this day, i decided not to ask people where do they come from.

Finally, if you want to make a strong move for your career, i don't say it is impossible but it is 10 times slower and harder than a native.

Honestly speaking,for short-term and mid-term career moves, Germany experience,the Audi you drive at A5 without speed limit, language you learn here are good advantages. But if you plan long-term things in your career(most of us will prefer this i believe) you should better choose a place with less "unwritten rules and laws" ;)

With that post i do not want to hurt any nationality or race.My only goal was sharing my experiences and thoughts.
-----------------------------------------------
Here is the summary of gif file.

Ausländer sind:
Gastarbeiter
Asylbewerber/Asylanten
Flüchtlinge
Aussiedler

Keine Ausländer sind:
Ausländische Manager
(Nord- bzw. West-) Europäer
US-Amerikaner
NATO-Streitkräfte
Internationale Stars(Musiker, Sportler, Schauspieler)

Ausländer: alle, die nicht Inländer sind
Inländer: alle Staatsbürger des Territoriums, von dem aus unterschieden wird.

Hi all,

I thought i should too give my opinion.

Every pond has good fish and bad fish. I had infact a dinner with a german family. He was talking about the opinion that Germans are unfriendly. He said that Germans Speak the Truth upfront rather than talking flowery language unlike in some friendly portrayed countries. I see no problem working with a german who would like to work with me. But if he thinks that i am not invited i may go the other way.

I agree there is some repulsion against foreigners. But if you see there is repulsion among germans themselves and this exists in every country and this true for almost all countries. Just ask yourselves before blaming germans. What if a worker from a poorer country comes and holds a high job in your native country. Will you not dislike it? If you see Germany was almost completely destroyed after WW II. But within short span they become powerful economy in europe. Why is it that some countries who never had wars in recent past are still developing countries.

In Short nothing is impossible even the word impossible says I M POSSIBLE.

Hope this is not boring.

@Detlef i would be interested in meeting, when you have a meeting of all GCs in Berlin as i am in Berlin.

Have a nice weekend guys.

Regards
Savio

Hello Savio,

i wish you the best, dream on. That what you said is true about the fishes, I have a few bad ones in my pond too :-)) but I am hopeful they will turn good.


Cheers

Hallo,
@Savion
"Every pond has good fish and bad fish"
This sentence is correct, but i am afraid as a Auslaender you would have to face more bad fishes here...

"Career growth" :this is a very important topic
about which we r discussing.

the following equations is absolutely wrong:
Germany=Career growth=foreigner

I myself is among the first GCs who came here. i have had some experiences about which JJ talks about. I respect Detlef, no doubt he is nice, although i havent met him, but i think he could be an example for us, which makes us thinking when we talk about impossibility of things in Germany...


But on the other hand, we need to speak truth to some level, although it could be hard for others to hear it and accept it. People who are asking about Career growht here, seem to be complete in darkness. I speak German to a good level, have a reasonable personality, know my work, have qualification and experience, have also all other properties which are needed to integrate but i see no chance! simply because first am a foriegner and have Asian outlook...
Have you guys seen how you feel when you go in a German gathering like in cantine for lunch, how people look at you, like you are from another star.
Detlef, can u please tell why is that so?

To become Team Lead, Manager are things which are
absolutely impossible.....
It does not depend upon you performance or the level to which you work hard to get a higher position, it depends if you are German or not.
By the way, i think in some companies you will be discouraged to be more competent... native employees dont like to obey your orders, like JJ rightly said.

this fact is quite acceptable that in every country native people are somehow against foriegners, no contraction! but it hurts when even very educated people (like Managers etc.) who should not be afraid that u would take their positions , are much jalouse. I think it would take many many years here before somethings would be changed... but i think may be when we all talk about our problems in the society openly, then the people here would think to solve atleast some problems.


nice weekend.

Hello MH,

I am glad someone is mature enough to see things how they are. The germans discriminate among themselves, i.e. ad in the newspaper,, .. looking for Enigeer .... age between 30 and 35 years old and so on. I am sure you all have seen things like this. So how do you expect that they won't or not discriminating when it comes to foreigners. I live in Bavaria, the worst place in germany, they have their own constitution, stuborn and far right politicans and politics, nicely disguised. These guys will never accept foreigners, period, they don't even accept other germans. I'll give you an example, in all of germany the red cross is named " Deutsche Rote Kreuz" but not in bavaria, it is called "Bayrische Rote Kreuz" :-))) and so on. I personally think that would it not be for the americans these guys would start another world war :-(( with Stoiber at the forefront. I don't know but I can't call this a few bad fish :-)) Bavaria for example raids places of foreigners with different religions but never the Neo Nazis, they are given refuge here, it is a well known fact that when Neonazis get caught in their acts they transfer their court proceedings to bavaria because they know they have stronger support in bavaria. Why am i saying all this? It is important if you want to put your roots down here. I don't want even to start on the school system, the apartheid system in south africa wouldn't stand behind on what is going on here.


Cheers

Hi,

I think QUALITY (no matter if you are a native or auslander) that really matters.

I have worked as Technical Team Lead for a team including German ppl. There was vary little problem (or NO Problem I would say) problem....in opposite they were more interested to learn from me. And in reply, they were very friendly and helped to solve social things.

And In my current company I am having problem with some one NOT GERMAN. Cause he doesnt like if I tell him to do some thing ...and that is due to my COLOR...how do you explain it ?

My opinion is..these things vary from person to person and some one shoud not point to a whole nation for it.

It is true - Germans are bit self-centered ..doesnt mean that they are unsocial in general. may be some ppl are unsocial..but thats true for any country around the world.

have a nice weekend.

Ahmed

BTB - TAXI FAHREN - I have travelled at least (approx 50) times in Taxi in the last 3 years..by TAXI..I have faced the question where r u from..several times..and most of the German taxi drivers appreciated when they came to know I am working here as a GC...asked me how am i doing my german and encouraged me to learn the language ..even one of them presented me a pair of bottles of wine in the eve of Christmas..and the others..in most cases..I never had a feeling they have appreciated it..or encouraged me. ..how do you explain it ?

Hi JJ,
i can imagine the level of problems, because u r
living at the heart of conservative block. but u see, we should not look at the problem from "Bavarian" side, because if we do so, it would be unfair with rest of Deutschland. The problem here is the general trend in every part of the country where native people feel unsecure against foriegners which is not justified anyway.
Your comment:
"I personally think that would it not be for the americans these guys would start another world war "
i dont think this could happen anymore. The creation of EU is a big reason therefore. Atleast many people here want that in rest of the world they should be seen as a nation which wants peace and prosperity in conflicting regions and third world for example, and a leader in EU. Our problems have much to do with internal part of the society.
One guy wrote in this thread, that once he said to his German colleauges about his plans to live here after 5 years, and suddenly they changed their attitude. i have also seen this attitude. I would strongly suggest this guy to say his colleagues that he will certainly leave after 5 years, that would help to normalize the relations again. I think because of historical wars, and the prosperity which was achieved as a aftermath, have made people here much more oriented to their personal lives then to the rest of the world. People are not much open because they dont want that their lives should be disturbed. which could be understandable to some extent, but it would not be a beahviour of an educated society.Skilled foriegners do contribute to the economy and give beautiful colors which are necessary for any society, and especially in a country where young people and birth rate is very low.

take it positive!

Hallo Ahmed,
if u r less than 3 years here then u r not quite aware of the problem which is in discussion.

QUALITY: it depends if u r working in a big company or in a small company where there are 10 to 20 people and u have a Boss who is also the owner of the company, he would definitely want Quality, because your work is very vital for him. And to be a technical lead in a small company is not comparable to the same position in medium to big companies where ur work in dependent on other teams working in the structure, and where u have to work with many other people.

Frankly speaking, if u say that u r working as Technical Lead in a medium or big company then it is hard to accept what u say.

True, you would not face problems when u work most of the time sitting at your place and not moving around, but once u need to communicate and
execute tasks with other teams, take part in meetings etc and need to make other people accept ur point of view, then u will face the problems:
color, race,origin, auslaender etc etc.


nice weekend.

@ Savion

"Just ask yourselves before blaming germans. What if a worker from a poorer country comes and holds a high job in your native country. Will you not dislike it? "

I am very sorry Savion, but i do not agree yourself here. Coming from a "poorer" country and
getting "high" job ? What are you talking about here ? Who cares where i am coming from ? Look at UK, look at US, many partners, executives in consulting companies who are originally from Pakistan, India etc. Nobody is unhappy because different colored people get "high" jobs.

NOBODY has the luxury of becoming sorry because brownies are getting their jobs. If you want to do something to save your a$$, please educate yourself, become better than the brownies who are getting the high jobs, OK ?

Cheers.

Hi pwehrli,

I am sorry i did not mean that india or from wherever you are is a poor country. That was just a example that there is rejection of foreigners in every country. The degree may vary.

I would not like to take it further as each one of use know that things which will not improve will not improve.

Regards

Hi GCs..

Kumaran, you should have got answers for what you wanted to know.

In my case, I've been here 3+ years. Now planning to move to US, which ofcourse is like leaving permanent job here, and going there and searching job. I feel it's worth to do at this point of time. Initial 2 years, I didn't feel like moving to other place. There are the things which made me to think that way,

1. Very less social life, not many of our community around. This makes me lonely.
2. No equal oppurtunity. No proper rights. I guess preferences are for first German, next europians, last others, by law.
3. No career growth possible (atleast in my case). I admit, my german speaking/writing skills can are enough to deal my collegues, but not enough for dealing with clients. They are never enough..It takes life time to achieve that.

On the other hand, these are the things which makes me think again of such move,

1. Job security and unemployment benifits. Hope you know here it is better than atleast US.
2. Work culture, which ofcourse less presure, more sort of sportive.

I decided myself that, the above will not benfit me much..

The people you come across, all is your (bad) luck.. Don't be that much sensitive of what others think.. I give a sh** of what other people (germans?) think.. when someone is narrow minded, they will be like that with everybody.. wife, kids, friends etc. They can never be happy in life.. I just pity them..

Hope this helps you decide better..

Armr

"Where does this caste system come in between..for that matter of fact there are also different categories in christianity and islam. Why dont people talk about them."

caste system comes here because it is worse than Apartheid and if you are protecting it just by skiping the subject than I can only tell you it is not the way to do things.
If I hear people from India saying that they are treatead bad because they are forigners I must answer: "Can you name one land where it is not so"
In India it is much worse. There even some indians (untouchables) will never have chance to become manager or anything in social life.

Christianity did do lot's of even worse thing but christianity is not doing those things now or I would not be christian.

Hi All,

I know it is easy to get frustrated here, but then again, (nobody said it was going to be easy). I want to bring some points that i have in mind.

1) The Outscourcing scare tactics that have been used to exert pressure to Unions and employees have really raised the awareness level and a lot of fear among germans (who are prone to fearing unemployment like the plague)

2) The US, which is the traditional reference for the market in Skills has changed and became more restrictive, and in a way that makes the other countries readjust (among other factors like asylum seekers becoming a 'burden' on economies under pressure)

3) That anyone who looks like a middle eastern is now a 'potential terrorist'

4) The state of stagnation of the German economy and their growing deficit and debt.

So other countries like the U.K. which were more liberal in their immigration policies are starting to really close the gates (so anyone thinking of moving there better hurry) ... yes they say that they still need highly skilled professionals, and even though they are more realistic on what real life has to offer than germans, they will make it harder.

I haven't written Germany of my book, and I believe that it's a country with a bright future and some wonderful people, but at the moment I'm just in a waiting state, because my personal circumstances have changed (perhaps for good, but I can not comment on that yet ....). The "kehrseite" is that if everything turns bad that might mean leaving Germany for good.

regards,
A.

Hi DvD,

From your reply I could conclude a few things:

* You are not an Indian
* You have never been to India
* You have no idea about the present state of India or Indian

For you kind information

* There are no such thing as "Untouchable" any more.
* Many top positions in India are held by peoples who would have been called "Untouchables" some 200 years back.

"You have no idea about the present state of India or Indian"

I dont want to offend anyone here but I just saw in the news a month ago or smt, during the distribution of the help goods in India after the Tsunami disaster, some cast-groups had some priviliges to receive the help.

I am relying on the news of the German TV, when I am saying that.. I might be totally wrong. You can tell here there is no such "cast" practices anymore but maybe you are not aware of the whole India, it is a big country.

Regards,

Lacrima

that is nice if it would be true.
I would like to believe it but unfortunately I heard about untouchables only few days ago, after Tsunami.

Maybe you speak more about Delhi and big cities and you probably come from one big city.
But is it so in poor parts of India also?

@CoolDude..."A matter of fact many companies do not waste time on hiring Indians and no I am not bashing. They got sick of talking to Indians"

As Detlef mentioned every body can state his opinion....good ... nothing wrong in it....

I have read your previous postings and most of the times have ignored them - because they were silly and written by some undergraduate OR an unmatured person. But some times you cross your limits. So here is my reply to your so called "personal opinion". I know I am wasting my time by writing this because last year some of my fellow friends have already presented you some examples of the heights which are acheived by Indians or other asian scholars.

* In reply to your resume story - yes I agree with you that some people do exaggerate their resumes but then they don't get chance to grow in their career. And mind you, 98% of GC's here from India have not got jobs by just writing few more lines or pages in their resume. They got these jobs because they had knowledge and skills.
I hope you understand that there a strict selection process by every employer before giving such a xxxxxEuro job to anybody. They are interviewed by the employer first and only if the employer think that this guy has the capability he gets the job. I ask you how many resumes have you read??? 10...100...1000..Number of Indian scholars is much more than that. And how can you say that whatever a person has written in resume he doesn't know?? It DOESN'T take 5-10 years or life long time to know all this. May be you yourself are not capable of achieving all this in such a short period of time thats why u think like this and have doubts on others as well. I will explain you how it is possible....Lets say u r a Technical consultant employed by a world famous Consultant company and I am ur boss and I find you very good in ur skills and knowledge. I will definitely send you to work on one of my client's remote site to work on his project alongwith some other engineers. You finish that project in 8 months and come back. Happy from ur performance Then I send you to some other client on some other project and so on.....So lets say u work like this for 5 years and have worked on different projects and domains. How would you write ur resume after 5 years then. Won't u feel proud of writing all these projects in ur resume??? OR u will still write what u studied or worked on 5 years back???

* Yes, its true that in India a person can achieve his Masters / Engineering degree by the age of 22 or 23 years. But its not that everybody can do this in India too. Only 65%-75% manage to paas through the chain of tough entrance and degree exams. There are different standard levels of colleges and Unis too. Some are such where people just spend whole year in doing preparation in order just to get entrance. And one who mange to get thru this - is the final cream which any employer in the world would gladly love to hire.
I can understand ur frustration... may be u have met so far only a bunch of *Not so Intelligent* engineers from India(remaining 2%)....OR u have seen some resumes floating on Internet. But I would like to remind u again that all those working in teams of Deutsche Bahn, Commerzbank, Deutsche Bank, HP, Microsoft, Vodafone, O2, in the research labs of Nuclear plants, BMW, Daimler Chrysler and so on.... have not got their jobs by *exaggerating* their resumes. And when you will meet or read about those as Board Members or Reasearch heads of Microsoft, Alcatel, Lucent, Vodafone, Google, Sun, and so on......ur whole opinion will change....

One final thing to mention - Don't grow by having such a bad perception in ur mind about Indian or any other south asian graduates. Rather try to learn something positive from them that how they have excelled to such heights at such a young age.

Have a nice day and week ahead.
Soni

Hi DvD and Lacrima,

I will put HM's message in other way because I have time today

The people u saw or heard as "Untouchables" in news are not *Untouchables*. Rather they are part of a very poor community. Like the same you find in any other country in world OR here in Germany on the City Streets asking for money(with beer in other hand) or looking for something to eat or drink in dust bins. The only difference is here the number of such people is less and in India(being heavily populated) number is very huge. And these TV channels are specialsed to show *only* such things as reports on poor countries Did u ever see such a report or such people on Television living in US. I bet they will never dare to telecast such about there own people.

*But* there is nothing such as *Untouchable* existing anymore when you look on people from poor, medium, upper or working class.

And whoever manages to achieve a degree from a college or gets qualified is never asked from which caste or community he is. He is always considered at par with others.

Soni

Hi Friends!

I hope I may call you so?

I do not want to take part in this discussion, I just want you to know, that I watch it carefully :-)

But I can admit, that I am very satisfied with the way of changing your points of view. Everbody seems to try not to blame others, please try to keep on like this!!!

I already learned a lot and I hope I can learn even more about foreign cultures and jobs and working in different countries.

Have a nice and successful week!

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

"And whoever manages to achieve a degree from a college or gets qualified is never asked from which caste or community he is. He is always considered at par with others."

it is hard to see how could one untouchable achieve degree since Studium is expensive.
So we come again to one big advantage of D, free studium (at least for now).

Let us skip than to another advantage of D.
That is god health insurance. I saw those untouchables in India selling one kidney to pay doctor. Such a things spread really bad light on India.

Hi DvD and others,

If I were to believe what the media (TV & newspapers etc) said, I would never have come to Germany in the first place.

If you wish to make some opinions for yourself, I would suggest that it should be a "first-hand" opinion and not was someone else has said or seen or believe ...

FYI:

* I am not from a very big city in India like (Delhi), infact I am from a small village.
* In India I know there are lot of poor people who cant afford 3 meals daily. But "Untouchability" is something totally different and was abolished long time back.
* An educated person from a "backward" or poor community have equal opportunities as compared to anyone else. Infact for many of the posts there are special reservations for such people.
* One of the former Indian President was from a community that is considered "backward".
* The present Indian President belongs to the minority community.

@DvD "I saw those untouchables in India selling one kidney to pay doctor"
Yes DvD, there were such incidents 2-3 years back but the the guilty were punished immediately.
And I think the word u r using "untouchables" is not the one which you exactly intend to use. This word or anything doesn't exist anymore.
What still exist in India is the poor people, people without daily food, people without house to live and people without jobs. And these poor people were the ones who even sold their body parts in order to survive and make earnings - with the help of some very rich and greedy hospitals/doctors. And as I said it was a bad incident of past, guilty were found and punished.
Its not what happens everyday(like u think)

But I think this forum is not to discuss about something bad happening in other countries .. and that too always specifically in *India* ....This forum should be used to know something fruitfull and good about other cultures, countries and people living there.
Ask about India something like:
* How people are able to get their degrees by age of 23
* About Indian school system and their quality of education
* How they excel so fast in field of Informatics, Medicine and Research
* and much more like this.....

I am pretty sure, after reading such +ve questions you will see unlimited replies by the fellow Indian / South asian GC's over here...through which we all will gain something....and that too free of cost

Soni

Agree.
Now try to guess what car is this -->

Hello Sony,

How is the education system in india?
from elementary, junior, senior, university?

Is that the same as british education system?

I heard people can finish bachelor for 3 years and + 1 year you get your master -> in britain.

To compare with other country:
bachelor 4 year plus 2 year master -> in total people need 6 year to obtain master.

Do you see? 4 year master degree quality and 6 year master degree quality. Is it the same?

Hey D

You have a Mercedes Klasse M?

I´ll send you my resume, maybe you need people ;-)

If it´s yours, maybe you soon get NE

Regards

YO

Sorry YO but it is not Mercedes ML.
Try again.

Maybe a Dacia! ;-)

I don´t really know

Doesn´t look like my auto

Hello VP,

Yes, In India also you need min. 6 years to finish ur masters(after 12th class). But again it depend upon which subjects one is studying. e.g. for History or Arts it is different from doing Bachelors in Engineering.

I will give you an example of an engineering graduate only:
* In India, you study till 10th class in school. And its same for everyone i.e. everyone study all the same subjects. Only after 10th class, a student can decide whether he want further study Medical, Engineering, Arts or something else.
* Then 11th and 12th class you can choose either to study at school itself(only where its provided) or in the college.
* After 12th, you have to appear for entrance exams to get admission in Engineering colleges. There are different class of enginnering colleges in India...some state run, private and some of very high reputation. Most of the times a student has to appear in different entrance exams conducted by different Universities - because of high competetion(among students) there. So that if he doesn't get seat in one he might get selected in the others.
* Once you get selected in some Engineering college, it takes min. 4 years to finish ur engineering. And mind you, most of the students tend to finish by 4 years itself because only those get selected who are really capable of doing it.
* Then one can choose to go for a job or still study further doing a Masters degree which take another 2 or 3 years depending upon the field and subjects of study.

May be someone else can throw some more light on this.

Soni

YO this is Mercedes X Klasse.

Okay, cool dude claims that if Zee Germans would come to India and not speak English / Hindi then they would not be able to communicate and manage.
Come on guys, how many germans can actually speak english? I have come across many Germans in India who say things like "I become a e-mail from you yesterday". The difference is Indians tend to be more flexible and business is business - whats important is the end goal and if people want to communicate (both parties involved) it is possible.

I myself have been trying hard to learn german and okay! I am the foriegner and make mistakes and get the der/die/das mixed up at times. Though I fully understand that German is a very complicated and rich language - what about being international - what about German companies who claim that the language of the firm is English - what about the great emphasis that every company gives on its being International ( need I go on?)

The point is I am trying and how many times have people looked the other way? Irrespective of whether you are looking for a trainee position / being a general manager - if zee zermans want to take your trip they wil. So zimple ist das!

For those IT professionals, live here for 2 years but THINK VERY HARD before you consider to settle here. These people are PARANOID.

My problem is that the person I love is a German who studies computer science. My only hope is that my partner finishes soon and we leave for better lands.

Here are a few survival rules as an Indian in germany -

(1) NEVER tell them that you want to stay here.
(2) Always praise your country and the job market so that you can settle th paronia
(3) Keep telling them that its a great chance to be here but you cannot take the cold, the different cuisine (=bland food)
(4) Speak loudly and with force - I was really surprised but many germans respond better to this authoritative style compared to being polite
(5) Always use the word PROBLEM. Germans will instantly bond to you
(6) keep reminding them that life is in general hard - talking about the taxes we foriegners pay for things like pension that we will never get makes them feel happy.
(7) Don't be optimistic- Germans bond better with depression
(8) Develop a thick skin.

I have finished my studies and my partner insists that I try for a entry level job. Try I will - but to be honest I don't have high hopes. Of course I have met many nice Germans but this was always personally -I have interned for companies that are so called global players and was pretty much ignored from the start. Remember, what does not kill you can only make you stronger!

Trust me guys, I just hope that India and China will become superpowers and one day we show the world.

Okay - did not mean to hurt anyone (sounds familiar). Honestly, most of the Germans I know personally are very nice humans. I am happy to have met them and will be there for them.

Today

Okay, cool dude claims that if Zee Germans would come to India and not speak English / Hindi then they would not be able to communicate and manage.
Come on guys, how many germans can actually speak english? I have come across many Germans in India who say things like "I become a e-mail from you yesterday".

Speaking English as an Indian as a matter of fact of the Indian history so there is nothing to be proud of here I guess.
I am neither German, nor Indian but the way you make fun of the Germans here because of the lack of the English knowledge is not nice. I saw Indians who spoke perfect English and I saw Indians whose English was a catastrophe.(Especially the pronouncation) so when you are "defending" yourself, you are starting to attack the other in the way you criticize. (Your words sound very "Indian Nationalist", when you try to criticize a "German Nationalist")



I myself have been trying hard to learn german and okay! I am the foriegner and make mistakes and get the der/die/das mixed up at times. Though I fully understand that German is a very complicated and rich language - what about being international - what about German companies who claim that the language of the firm is English -


Apart from the American companies who operate in Germany(one American Company's German branch refused my job application because I didnt have sufficient German language skills), I have never heard a German company claiming that their firm's language is English ? Where did you hear that ? which German company claims that ?????
English is a language which is spoken today by many people as a second language. That is true but this is just an illusion for today. It was French 60-70 years ago, no one can guarantee that it will be still English in the coming 60-70 years.(My guess is Chinese)
If a pure Indian company operates in English. That is a shame of that Indian company. Nothing to be proud of being international or smt. IMHO a pure German company is doing the right thing by operating in German. If they do international business then they can hire people who speak English for appropriate positions but the company's internal language should stay in German and someone who wants to work in that company should learn German. Full stop.

I hope, I was able to give my point of view. No offence please. These paragraphs are not meant to offend anyone.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hey Merlinmagic,

i would call your "survival rules" as
"classical rules" for living here -

That would help many of us - great man!.

nice day.

lacrima:
"(My guess is Chinese)"


I do not think so. To become world languge, it should be easy and if you have 300 000 instead of 30 letter than no chance.

Every world language will have ~30 letters in future

I dissagree completely with that survival manuel.
First of all to be happy you should be your self, even if somebody does not like it.

So if you are joyfull you should stay that way.
Regarding stay after 5 years no company would employ me if I would say that I leave D after 5 years.

Mr.Lacrima,
For your kind information the first cum internal language of Siemens is English. Everything is in English here.

Daimler Chrysler has shifted to English. Last year they made a policy that English should be the first language.

I wont wonder why these two companies always figure among the top 10 companies in the Fortune 10 list.

I would also vouch that Siemens doesnt discriminate among foreigners since some of my senior indian colleagues are Project leaders and Project Managers here.

To top the list, the head of our R&D group is a Chinese.I still wont wonder if this guy becomes the head of our business segment in the coming years.

One of the directors in the board of Daimler Chrysler is an Indian.The head of the Radio frequency and communication group in Daimler Chrysler is an Indian.

To be international either learn English or better stay as croacking frogs lying inside a well.

I am not having anything against Germans or their culture because if thats the way they have been bred and fed all these days, they will be like that.

Lets not speak about what language will be followed in the next 70 years. Neither you nor me will be alive to see that.
Moreover India is a land of diverse cultures. I can bet you will be amazed to see each state(26 of them) having a different culture, language and lifestyle. The beauty is we still remain united and are standing as a single entity till date and Í can again vouch that this will stand the test of time.

We have all come here to have some experience. So learning a new culture and language is always a plus point in your career. You might take some time to go up. But stay calm and composed.

Career advancement is a must. If you consider that as the main priority, then better think twice or thrice before settling down in a job.

In my opinion there is no replacement for hardwork. Lets not think about the fruits that the tree is going bear long before the seeds are being sown.Moreover we dont even know in which direction the tree will branch out and which branch will bear a fruit.

So do your duty with sincerity and dedication. Thats the only parameter which we can control.

Good luck.

Just to add ;)
another Indian on the Deutsche Bank Board (rather executive commitee), anshu jain.
Well those who dare, they do get it.
ciao
GnR

you just don't get it. Indians as any other foreigner (especially dark skinned) pollute the arien race...LOL. They fought a war for that..you really believe they changed? Of course I mean as a nation and not as individuals. As you know nations are characterized by the way they behave themselves as a mass. Take for example the Ausländeramt beamtinen. When a woman that has as job to apply the low but has no clue about it, more than that she hates the ones that she is supposed to help than we can't say shit about all this. This situation is well known and tolerated politically so this should tell you everything about the so called "German nation". I am not talking about individuals as I said but as someone said : "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". If the German individuals know how peoples are treated in Bayer but still vote for CSU/CDU alliance than they are as guilty as the beamtinen from ausländeramt.

chira what happened to you, you were normal short time ago.

I still think that germans are not worse than any other nation to ausländers. Same as everywhere, some like them and some dislike them.
And you can not blame whole folk for something that someone does. There is no common guilt for whole folk. Only for individuals.

Hi guys (and specially fellow friends CoolDude and Lacrima),
Just wanted to share some good news with you all. I know its off the topic and purpose of this forum.
But its very much related to in reply to some of the messages posted under this topic where questions were raised about the treatment to "Untouchables and Minor community people" living in India.
Here is one nice and live example how a student from a village made news:
/*********************/
The small village of Narhai in Uttar Pradesh is suddenly on NASA's map.

A 17-year-old boy from here, Saurabh Singh, has beaten all odds to top NASA's International Scientist Discovery (ISD) exam.

Saurabh, a class XII student, has even bettered Indian President APJ Abdul Kalam, who finished seventh when he sat for the examinations in 1960.

"I had always dreamt of going on a mission on a spacecraft. I came to know about ISD when I was preparing for the Indian Institute of Technology, Joint Entrance Examination," says Saurabh.

The other famous Indian to have done well in the International Scientist Discovery exam was Kalpana Chawla, mission specialist of the ill-fated Columbia space shuttle and the first Indian woman in space. She had stood 21st in the 1988 exams.

But unlike her, Saurabh had never heard of NASA till he began preparing for his IIT entrance exams.

Proud achievement

For Saurabh's parents, his achievement is a dream come true.

"I was confident that my son would do well in his studies. He made it possible with his own efforts," says Nirmala Singh, Saurabh's mother.

Saurabh is now eagerly awaiting his call letter from NASA and hopes to meet his idol President Kalam before leaving for the US a few months from now.

When he goes, Saurabh will be carrying with him the pride of his family, his village, and the entire country.

Here is the link where a video clip is also given:
http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=Narhai+boy+tops+NASA%27s+ISD+exam&id=68634
/******************/

Note again: There can be many bad reports or news also on different newspapers *BUT* I think +ve so I share GOOD/CONSTRUCTIVE news only - about people of my country and other countries.

Thanks
Soni

Hi guys (and specially fellow friends CoolDude and Lacrima),
Just wanted to share some good news with you all. I know its off the topic and purpose of this forum.
But its very much related to in reply to some of the messages posted under this topic where questions were raised about the treatment to "Untouchables and Minor community people" living in India.
Here is one nice and live example how a student from a village made news:
/*********************/
The small village of Narhai in Uttar Pradesh is suddenly on NASA's map.

A 17-year-old boy from here, Saurabh Singh, has beaten all odds to top NASA's International Scientist Discovery (ISD) exam.

Saurabh, a class XII student, has even bettered Indian President APJ Abdul Kalam, who finished seventh when he sat for the examinations in 1960.

"I had always dreamt of going on a mission on a spacecraft. I came to know about ISD when I was preparing for the Indian Institute of Technology, Joint Entrance Examination," says Saurabh.

The other famous Indian to have done well in the International Scientist Discovery exam was Kalpana Chawla, mission specialist of the ill-fated Columbia space shuttle and the first Indian woman in space. She had stood 21st in the 1988 exams.

But unlike her, Saurabh had never heard of NASA till he began preparing for his IIT entrance exams.

Proud achievement

For Saurabh's parents, his achievement is a dream come true.

"I was confident that my son would do well in his studies. He made it possible with his own efforts," says Nirmala Singh, Saurabh's mother.

Saurabh is now eagerly awaiting his call letter from NASA and hopes to meet his idol President Kalam before leaving for the US a few months from now.

When he goes, Saurabh will be carrying with him the pride of his family, his village, and the entire country.

Here is the link where a video clip is also given:
http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=Narhai+boy+tops+NASA%27s+ISD+exam&id=68634
/******************/

Note again: There can be many bad reports or news also on different newspapers *BUT* I think +ve so I prefer to share GOOD/CONSTRUCTIVE news only - about people of my country and other countries.

Thanks
Soni