Hallo Suzammen,

I am coming from North Afrika and I am GC since 2001.

In 2003 I met my friend who is german. We are since this time living together. We have planned since last summer to get married. Like two idiots we have been to the Standesamt and asked for the papers that we need to give them.

We follow all the instructions. In august, the list of difficulties began...
First the Standesamt asked me a permission of my father because in my country a woman has to get
the permission of a tutor (in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why).
A Association helped me with lawyers to prove that I do not need this paper and that the Standesamt in Fkt had made
a mistake. The Standesamt has recognized this error and inform us that we finally do not need this.
This first fight took us two months.

After that I get all the papers like Geburtsurkunde+Familienstandbescheinigung+Ledigkeitsbecheinigung from my country, all
legalised in the minister of Interior + Foreign Office in my country + German Embassy in my country.
(+Waiting the response of the Embassy+Embassy fees+Translation in german).
Our files went to Oberlandesgericht and now they told us after two months that my papers are not enough because the Familienstandsbescheining does not contain the mention "not married" even if the ledigkeitsbescheinigung stipulate that I was never married in my country as well as my birth
certificate (Geburtsurkunde). I am not a lawyer but I have seen in an article that we have to deliver the Ledigkeitsbescheinigung OR the Familienstandsbescheinigung.
The Oberlandesgericht has in hand the two papers and want more! Now I can not travel again to my country just for a paper and for the legalisations. We have this afternoon a appointment with a lawyer.
Do you think it worths to begin an other fight or is it better to travel to Denmark?
Are the danish papers recognized in Germany or is it angain problematic?
I felt this reaction from the Behörde like not fair. I studied and worked in different european countries and I always have been honest and have my papers by myself. I was thinking that Germany was needing high-qualified people...

I just wanted some help and share the hell we are living since 8 months with my friend to get this marriage done...

Ever try to get married elsewhere? I know friends who got married in other countries (can't remember where, I will need to ask my wife if she recalls the country), got them 2 weeks maximum and got their marriage recognized here, without problem.

D.

Nadia,

I recommend you get married in copenhagen ... very easy and fast process. Depending on your luck the total time for the process will take from 2 weeks to maximum 4 weeks.

there is plenty of information about marriages in Denmark but I suggest you this website
http://www.usembassy.dk/ACS/LivingInDenmark/GettingMarried.htm

make sure that you need to travel twice to Denmark, first for registration and then for marriage.

babloo

hai my friend,
i have passed through your case in the past, i searched a lot and in the last i realised denmark is the best place to marry,
in denmark the town name ´´tonder`` it is very near to hamburg you can go by train (if you have a car then no problem),i hope you have schangen visa (then you must not take separate visa),first you have to take an appointment with them , they can speak in english and german.
then at first on the appointment date you have to show them your passports then from rathhaus Aufenthaltsbescheiningung,thats enough.they will charge around 80 euros.
but you have to stay there for 3 or 4 days there, for this you have to show them the paper that you stayed in a hotel( you can choose from 30 to 100 euros).
on the first day they will check paper then ask you to come after 3 days for the marrige, the marriage will be finished in 10 minutes, you dont need any witness(they will provide), even you must not have a ring thats up to your wish.
this certificate is valid in germany but you will get your visa(family visa) after producing your birth, unmarried certificate to the standesamt.
then they will verify them(this takes max 3 months), for this you have to pay 150 euros.After verfication the standesamt will give you a marriage certificate in germany. with this certificate go to aulanderbehorde and get your 3 years visa with full work permit(from arbeitsamt).

you can find about the marriage here , www.toender.dk,
i was there and i think this is the best place and this is the best way to get married in germany.
with love,
indogerman

<<in my country a woman has to get the permission of a tutor (in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why)>>

I know that this thread is more to provide answers to some specific questions, but I also don't like spreading some false information.

The idea behind getting father's permission for a girl's marriage has nothing to do with considering a woman as a minor in North Africa or any where else in the Muslim world.
In fact marriage is seen to be a very important social contract that requires the consent of both parties, therefore Islam has it its own terms and conditions which is thought to help having a successful marriage.
For a marriage to be valid certain conditions must be met:
1) consent of both parties.
2) a gift from the groom to his bride.
3) Witnesses- 2
4) The marriage should be publicized, it should never be kept secret as it leads to suspicion and troubles within the community

The choice of a partner by a Muslim virgin girl is subject to the approval of the father or guardian under one muslim school. This is to safeguard her welfare and interests. The prophet of Islam did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes.

Sorry for this long post which might be of no interest to some of you, as I said at the begining I just want to say something against spreading some false information about my culture.

Regards.

try this site
http://www.romantische-hochzeit.de/englisch.htm
They are in Germany and should be a able to answer your questions

"The choice of a partner by a Muslim virgin girl is subject to the approval of the father or guardian under one muslim school. This is to safeguard her welfare and interests. The prophet of Islam did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes."

@wsh

No matter how you try to explain it. It is violation of human rights.(in this case, the violation of the right of a virgin muslim girl who is at the end a human)

My advice to you. Instead of trying to defend the bad practices which belong to middle ages. Try to help to educate your own folks in your country so that they can also reach a level where they can see, this is actually a human right violation.

and please do not generalize by using words "Muslim World". I know a country which belongs to Muslim World and which also prohibits such practices which is part of the middle ages.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hello Lacrima,

I don't want to stimulate a discussion which might be beyond the scope of this forum.

I fully understand that it is your HUMAN RIGHT to explain your point of view, but I also think it is my RIGHT to refuse your "sincere" advice regarding educating my "own folks" in my country. Educated people in my country are more and more apprectiating practices of Islam in gerneral and specially concerning social life.

I fully understand that there is always another point of view, but I really wished that someone well educated like you will not flag the practices of nearly 20 percent of the world's population as part of middle ages. To be honst these practices might be coming fom a period of time which some people consider as middle/dark ages, but this period in my geografical location is seen as BRIGHT AGES by many people of the world including some known european scholars.

Again you can always criticise other's point of view but there are much better ways which makes criticism more benificial and acceptable.

I know two countries in the Muslim world "Tunisia and Turkey" which are prohibiting many islamic practices "headscarf in schools as an example", but I also know that informal polls done by reseach organisations in Turkey says that about 80 percent of the people are against that prohibition. I will not talk about HUMAN RIGHTS in this case, I will leave it to our human right's expert "Lacrima". It is not my intention to make jokes but I just want to say it is not fare to talk about one part and not the full part of the story.

At the end I have to stop, I don't want to get our kind and nice friend Detlef annoyed. I will post my email address just in case anybody wants to continue the discussion:

mmahmoud@gmx.net

Of course I don't mind to continue the discussion here but I just want to respect the reason this forum is made for.

Regards.

@wsh

There is nothing to discuss, if you seriously think the way you describe.

There is a known malpractice of treating woman as a second level human-being(with headscarves, man's authoritization for her acts.. etc) in some islamic countries. I dont care what is the explanation for that(Religion, Culture etc) but this is just a FACT that such treatment for women exist in those countries.

If you are trying to defend it, instead of trying to change it(and describe it "Bright Ages"), I can just feel sorry for you. There is no point to further discuss it.

By the way, Public opinion is not Holy. What the majority says, is not necessarily the correct way.
(Remember the second world war and the voters in Germany who elected Hitler)
So I would better make up my own opinion instead of blindly accepting what the majority says.

Regards,

Lacrima

I think the Standestamt has their own point.
They have a kind of guidance book, what document is needed for what country.
Once you have submitted the right document, then everything is all right.
So my advice, will be to follow what they want and do it nicely.
The people in standestamt was very nice, and they were explaining everything.

I think the procedure in germany in good, to protect the girl from some culprit who has 2 or 3 wifes before

I feel the procedure here is even better than in my country

so good luck.

@Lacrima

I can't see any of my text which shows that I am defending any point of view.

I also don't see any part of my text which makes you feel sorry for me, at least I am able to explain some aspects of the civilisation which I belong to. On the other hand I feel sorry for people who put their heads in the sand not being able to stand for their own principles.

I think one big problem for anyone is not to be able to understand the other's point of view.

Hello Mahmud or whoever it is,

It is nice of you to preach what you think is right. But this is the wrong forum. The lady who started this thread has a completely different problem than what you are discussing at present. Well if you could help her out in solving that problem then you do a great service for her. But you are behaving like a male chauvinist trying to demean her, when she didnt try to demean your/her religion.

Dont try to force your thoughts on someone who already has enough problem on her hands with the so called "Bright Ages" teachings.

cheers
Rajesh

Yo WSH

"I fully understand that there is always another point of view, but I really wished that someone well educated like you will not flag the practices of nearly 20 percent of the world's population as part of middle ages."

"in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why)" Did you ever ask why?


What you really want to say is that you are a Muslim man and you do not have a big problem with how women are treated in the muslim world. I mean in most muslim countries, they can not drive, not vote, and not allowed to be educated, etc...... That goes beyond just "another point of view" as you put it. That is just plain wrong! You should condemn this behavior instead of calling it the "Bright Ages" And what is this 20% deal. Is it also wrong to say something about this, (also pointing out, shall we say it pertains to less than 1% of muslims) that muslims are the ones who are responsible for 90% or more of the terrorist bombings taking place in the World! or is that another positive part of the "Bright Ages".

Later,
Cool Dude

Hello Raj, Hello Cool Dude,

I think you really didn't understand what I wanted to say. As I said before, I will not let myself stimulated by what you are saying.
I wanted to use my right as a user for this forum and correct what I believe is a wrong statement in one of the posts. I have seen this done several times before and resulting in some fruitful discussions, I don't see why you are standing for a different position in my case.

I never meant to say that the practices of all muslims are 100 percent correct, but also on the other hand I would like to say it is correct to flag a whole culture and civilisation with irresponsible accusation because of the behaviour of some of its individuals.

The attitude of some Gulf countries towards women has nothing to do with the teachings of islam. Of course I fully disagree with such things like many other people in the muslim world, the reason for this disagreement is that I know there are never compatible with islam, Islam ws the first to say that all human beings are equal (1400 years ago). I personaly come from the biggest Arab country and my wife has better education than myself.

Cool Dude, please don't interpret my words according to your wishs. Responding to your words regarding "terrorist bombings" might take long. I will try to be short. For any killing of innocent civilians I will be on of the first to condemn especially if it is proved that it is done by muslims. I will ask you 2 questions: for how many terrorist bombings it was found out by a fare court that it is done by muslims? what about killing of hundrads of thousands of innocent people in some muslim countries, why you don't also condemn it?

I tell you why, it is the double standards strategy!!

I posted my email address from whom who would like to continue the discussion, but I still have to reply for what is posted for me in this forum.

Regards.

Thanks a lot guy for your response.

I did not meant to open a Polemic about the women situation in the islamic world.
to wsh: you are not a woman, are you? We women have enough problems with the heavy traditions which are still very present in our countries. I regret that nobody in islam succeeded to modernize this religion or to modernize its image, to adapt to this actual world...

My aim is to ask for help and to warn anyone of you who will begin this prozess.
The lawyer I have seen yesterday has confirmed that a marriage in Denmark is completely recognized in Germany.
Regards.

Hello Nadia,

Good point and be careful with your idea .
I am afraid that somebody will hunt you down for what you are thinking

wish you good luck with the application.

First of All, very well done Mr "wsh".

For Nadia_Taleb, I think this news from Toronto Observer should be enough for the treatment of woman by the crul Taliban. (Note..this british journalist (Yvonne Ridley) has converted to Islam not in the prision of Taliban but after their fall)
http://observer.thecentre.centennialcollege.ca/news/ridley022503.htm

and what about the woman protesting in France for the right of scarf. did someone force them to do so??

coming to the word "minor" now . do you think woman have all the rights in Europen ,American and other Non muslim states (If Muslim world think woman as minor). Turky,Pakistan,Bangladesh, Indonesia are the countries where women were and are Prime minister of country. show me some woman president in America...
if you cannot serve your religion/culture at least dont give misconception of it.

I know there will be thousands of logics/points to prove all the things wrong but try to forget the last three and half year propagenda.

lastly,

A person called "raj" was mentioning in some previous thread

"Career growth in Germany for non-natives"
Hi Cool Dude,
Your sentence "Before you pack up your rice bags and go to another country and whereever you go, "
has a bit of racist tones. So please avoid it next time."

because the things were relating to his country (though I myslef thing that people talked many things wrong about India). but then he was mentioning

"Posted on 15/02/2005 10:12 pm
It is nice of you to preach what you think is right. But this is the wrong forum."

why wrong forum? if there is miss conception about Islam why not it should be discussed and cleard.

looking some previous post, its quite clear how the "Educated persons" think about Islam and how much broadminded they are.

(As Yvonne Ridley say: when I wear scarf and go in taxi, one of the taxi driver say to me "Please dont leave some bomb in this Taxi"; An example of equal right socity)

May Allah bless you.
Afzal.

@Afzal

Thanks a lot for your support, it was not the best to feel lonely, but now I am not :-)

Salam.

Hello,

The morality of the world is changing every minute. The things that were immoral are now the most respected doings. Nadia_Taleb got the answer of her original question and will be doing according to her moral needs.
To the rest of the readers, I would suggest in most strongest words NOT to criticize any religion. You are most welcome to post your problems here that what the forum is about, but before writing anyting on the forum think twice

1. You are not criticizing any religion.
2. Your remarks are not giving any sense of recialisim.
3. You are not hurting any cummunity.

I hope Detlef will not have any objection to these points.

In the end i must say that while living in any country we are obliged to respect the laws of that country.

Hi Imranahmadkhan,

thanks a lot for your suggestions! I agree, that this is a very sensitive field of discussion and some month ago I would have said, these kind of topics should not be a part of our forum.

Meanwhile, I see it a little bit different. Up to this point everybody tried to express his opinion in a way which does not blame or hurt the others (not 100 %, but acceptable).

And the comments from our Islam members are very interesting and they give us the chance to learn more about their culture than we can by reading the newspapers or watching TV reports.

In General, because of the big number of members in our forum, from around 90 different nations!! we have the chance to know and to learn more about others.

The prerequisite for this is a high level of tolerance and objectivity and I hope, that you, that we will proof, that it is possible to discuss everything and still beeing friends!

I will open up a new forum for these kind of discussions and I will watch it closely. As soon as somebody starts blaming and primitve messages, I will delete his member accout.

But I hope and I believe this will not be necessary!

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef