Hallo Suzammen,

I am coming from North Afrika and I am GC since 2001.

In 2003 I met my friend who is german. We are since this time living together. We have planned since last summer to get married. Like two idiots we have been to the Standesamt and asked for the papers that we need to give them.

We follow all the instructions. In august, the list of difficulties began...
First the Standesamt asked me a permission of my father because in my country a woman has to get
the permission of a tutor (in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why).
A Association helped me with lawyers to prove that I do not need this paper and that the Standesamt in Fkt had made
a mistake. The Standesamt has recognized this error and inform us that we finally do not need this.
This first fight took us two months.

After that I get all the papers like Geburtsurkunde+Familienstandbescheinigung+Ledigkeitsbecheinigung from my country, all
legalised in the minister of Interior + Foreign Office in my country + German Embassy in my country.
(+Waiting the response of the Embassy+Embassy fees+Translation in german).
Our files went to Oberlandesgericht and now they told us after two months that my papers are not enough because the Familienstandsbescheining does not contain the mention "not married" even if the ledigkeitsbescheinigung stipulate that I was never married in my country as well as my birth
certificate (Geburtsurkunde). I am not a lawyer but I have seen in an article that we have to deliver the Ledigkeitsbescheinigung OR the Familienstandsbescheinigung.
The Oberlandesgericht has in hand the two papers and want more! Now I can not travel again to my country just for a paper and for the legalisations. We have this afternoon a appointment with a lawyer.
Do you think it worths to begin an other fight or is it better to travel to Denmark?
Are the danish papers recognized in Germany or is it angain problematic?
I felt this reaction from the Behörde like not fair. I studied and worked in different european countries and I always have been honest and have my papers by myself. I was thinking that Germany was needing high-qualified people...

I just wanted some help and share the hell we are living since 8 months with my friend to get this marriage done...

Ever try to get married elsewhere? I know friends who got married in other countries (can't remember where, I will need to ask my wife if she recalls the country), got them 2 weeks maximum and got their marriage recognized here, without problem.

D.

Nadia,

I recommend you get married in copenhagen ... very easy and fast process. Depending on your luck the total time for the process will take from 2 weeks to maximum 4 weeks.

there is plenty of information about marriages in Denmark but I suggest you this website
http://www.usembassy.dk/ACS/LivingInDenmark/GettingMarried.htm

make sure that you need to travel twice to Denmark, first for registration and then for marriage.

babloo

hai my friend,
i have passed through your case in the past, i searched a lot and in the last i realised denmark is the best place to marry,
in denmark the town name ´´tonder`` it is very near to hamburg you can go by train (if you have a car then no problem),i hope you have schangen visa (then you must not take separate visa),first you have to take an appointment with them , they can speak in english and german.
then at first on the appointment date you have to show them your passports then from rathhaus Aufenthaltsbescheiningung,thats enough.they will charge around 80 euros.
but you have to stay there for 3 or 4 days there, for this you have to show them the paper that you stayed in a hotel( you can choose from 30 to 100 euros).
on the first day they will check paper then ask you to come after 3 days for the marrige, the marriage will be finished in 10 minutes, you dont need any witness(they will provide), even you must not have a ring thats up to your wish.
this certificate is valid in germany but you will get your visa(family visa) after producing your birth, unmarried certificate to the standesamt.
then they will verify them(this takes max 3 months), for this you have to pay 150 euros.After verfication the standesamt will give you a marriage certificate in germany. with this certificate go to aulanderbehorde and get your 3 years visa with full work permit(from arbeitsamt).

you can find about the marriage here , www.toender.dk,
i was there and i think this is the best place and this is the best way to get married in germany.
with love,
indogerman

<<in my country a woman has to get the permission of a tutor (in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why)>>

I know that this thread is more to provide answers to some specific questions, but I also don't like spreading some false information.

The idea behind getting father's permission for a girl's marriage has nothing to do with considering a woman as a minor in North Africa or any where else in the Muslim world.
In fact marriage is seen to be a very important social contract that requires the consent of both parties, therefore Islam has it its own terms and conditions which is thought to help having a successful marriage.
For a marriage to be valid certain conditions must be met:
1) consent of both parties.
2) a gift from the groom to his bride.
3) Witnesses- 2
4) The marriage should be publicized, it should never be kept secret as it leads to suspicion and troubles within the community

The choice of a partner by a Muslim virgin girl is subject to the approval of the father or guardian under one muslim school. This is to safeguard her welfare and interests. The prophet of Islam did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes.

Sorry for this long post which might be of no interest to some of you, as I said at the begining I just want to say something against spreading some false information about my culture.

Regards.

try this site
http://www.romantische-hochzeit.de/englisch.htm
They are in Germany and should be a able to answer your questions

"The choice of a partner by a Muslim virgin girl is subject to the approval of the father or guardian under one muslim school. This is to safeguard her welfare and interests. The prophet of Islam did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes."

@wsh

No matter how you try to explain it. It is violation of human rights.(in this case, the violation of the right of a virgin muslim girl who is at the end a human)

My advice to you. Instead of trying to defend the bad practices which belong to middle ages. Try to help to educate your own folks in your country so that they can also reach a level where they can see, this is actually a human right violation.

and please do not generalize by using words "Muslim World". I know a country which belongs to Muslim World and which also prohibits such practices which is part of the middle ages.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hello Lacrima,

I don't want to stimulate a discussion which might be beyond the scope of this forum.

I fully understand that it is your HUMAN RIGHT to explain your point of view, but I also think it is my RIGHT to refuse your "sincere" advice regarding educating my "own folks" in my country. Educated people in my country are more and more apprectiating practices of Islam in gerneral and specially concerning social life.

I fully understand that there is always another point of view, but I really wished that someone well educated like you will not flag the practices of nearly 20 percent of the world's population as part of middle ages. To be honst these practices might be coming fom a period of time which some people consider as middle/dark ages, but this period in my geografical location is seen as BRIGHT AGES by many people of the world including some known european scholars.

Again you can always criticise other's point of view but there are much better ways which makes criticism more benificial and acceptable.

I know two countries in the Muslim world "Tunisia and Turkey" which are prohibiting many islamic practices "headscarf in schools as an example", but I also know that informal polls done by reseach organisations in Turkey says that about 80 percent of the people are against that prohibition. I will not talk about HUMAN RIGHTS in this case, I will leave it to our human right's expert "Lacrima". It is not my intention to make jokes but I just want to say it is not fare to talk about one part and not the full part of the story.

At the end I have to stop, I don't want to get our kind and nice friend Detlef annoyed. I will post my email address just in case anybody wants to continue the discussion:

mmahmoud@gmx.net

Of course I don't mind to continue the discussion here but I just want to respect the reason this forum is made for.

Regards.

@wsh

There is nothing to discuss, if you seriously think the way you describe.

There is a known malpractice of treating woman as a second level human-being(with headscarves, man's authoritization for her acts.. etc) in some islamic countries. I dont care what is the explanation for that(Religion, Culture etc) but this is just a FACT that such treatment for women exist in those countries.

If you are trying to defend it, instead of trying to change it(and describe it "Bright Ages"), I can just feel sorry for you. There is no point to further discuss it.

By the way, Public opinion is not Holy. What the majority says, is not necessarily the correct way.
(Remember the second world war and the voters in Germany who elected Hitler)
So I would better make up my own opinion instead of blindly accepting what the majority says.

Regards,

Lacrima

I think the Standestamt has their own point.
They have a kind of guidance book, what document is needed for what country.
Once you have submitted the right document, then everything is all right.
So my advice, will be to follow what they want and do it nicely.
The people in standestamt was very nice, and they were explaining everything.

I think the procedure in germany in good, to protect the girl from some culprit who has 2 or 3 wifes before

I feel the procedure here is even better than in my country

so good luck.

@Lacrima

I can't see any of my text which shows that I am defending any point of view.

I also don't see any part of my text which makes you feel sorry for me, at least I am able to explain some aspects of the civilisation which I belong to. On the other hand I feel sorry for people who put their heads in the sand not being able to stand for their own principles.

I think one big problem for anyone is not to be able to understand the other's point of view.

Hello Mahmud or whoever it is,

It is nice of you to preach what you think is right. But this is the wrong forum. The lady who started this thread has a completely different problem than what you are discussing at present. Well if you could help her out in solving that problem then you do a great service for her. But you are behaving like a male chauvinist trying to demean her, when she didnt try to demean your/her religion.

Dont try to force your thoughts on someone who already has enough problem on her hands with the so called "Bright Ages" teachings.

cheers
Rajesh

Yo WSH

"I fully understand that there is always another point of view, but I really wished that someone well educated like you will not flag the practices of nearly 20 percent of the world's population as part of middle ages."

"in my country a woman is always considered as a minor, don't ask me why)" Did you ever ask why?


What you really want to say is that you are a Muslim man and you do not have a big problem with how women are treated in the muslim world. I mean in most muslim countries, they can not drive, not vote, and not allowed to be educated, etc...... That goes beyond just "another point of view" as you put it. That is just plain wrong! You should condemn this behavior instead of calling it the "Bright Ages" And what is this 20% deal. Is it also wrong to say something about this, (also pointing out, shall we say it pertains to less than 1% of muslims) that muslims are the ones who are responsible for 90% or more of the terrorist bombings taking place in the World! or is that another positive part of the "Bright Ages".

Later,
Cool Dude

Hello Raj, Hello Cool Dude,

I think you really didn't understand what I wanted to say. As I said before, I will not let myself stimulated by what you are saying.
I wanted to use my right as a user for this forum and correct what I believe is a wrong statement in one of the posts. I have seen this done several times before and resulting in some fruitful discussions, I don't see why you are standing for a different position in my case.

I never meant to say that the practices of all muslims are 100 percent correct, but also on the other hand I would like to say it is correct to flag a whole culture and civilisation with irresponsible accusation because of the behaviour of some of its individuals.

The attitude of some Gulf countries towards women has nothing to do with the teachings of islam. Of course I fully disagree with such things like many other people in the muslim world, the reason for this disagreement is that I know there are never compatible with islam, Islam ws the first to say that all human beings are equal (1400 years ago). I personaly come from the biggest Arab country and my wife has better education than myself.

Cool Dude, please don't interpret my words according to your wishs. Responding to your words regarding "terrorist bombings" might take long. I will try to be short. For any killing of innocent civilians I will be on of the first to condemn especially if it is proved that it is done by muslims. I will ask you 2 questions: for how many terrorist bombings it was found out by a fare court that it is done by muslims? what about killing of hundrads of thousands of innocent people in some muslim countries, why you don't also condemn it?

I tell you why, it is the double standards strategy!!

I posted my email address from whom who would like to continue the discussion, but I still have to reply for what is posted for me in this forum.

Regards.

Thanks a lot guy for your response.

I did not meant to open a Polemic about the women situation in the islamic world.
to wsh: you are not a woman, are you? We women have enough problems with the heavy traditions which are still very present in our countries. I regret that nobody in islam succeeded to modernize this religion or to modernize its image, to adapt to this actual world...

My aim is to ask for help and to warn anyone of you who will begin this prozess.
The lawyer I have seen yesterday has confirmed that a marriage in Denmark is completely recognized in Germany.
Regards.

Hello Nadia,

Good point and be careful with your idea .
I am afraid that somebody will hunt you down for what you are thinking

wish you good luck with the application.

First of All, very well done Mr "wsh".

For Nadia_Taleb, I think this news from Toronto Observer should be enough for the treatment of woman by the crul Taliban. (Note..this british journalist (Yvonne Ridley) has converted to Islam not in the prision of Taliban but after their fall)
http://observer.thecentre.centennialcollege.ca/news/ridley022503.htm

and what about the woman protesting in France for the right of scarf. did someone force them to do so??

coming to the word "minor" now . do you think woman have all the rights in Europen ,American and other Non muslim states (If Muslim world think woman as minor). Turky,Pakistan,Bangladesh, Indonesia are the countries where women were and are Prime minister of country. show me some woman president in America...
if you cannot serve your religion/culture at least dont give misconception of it.

I know there will be thousands of logics/points to prove all the things wrong but try to forget the last three and half year propagenda.

lastly,

A person called "raj" was mentioning in some previous thread

"Career growth in Germany for non-natives"
Hi Cool Dude,
Your sentence "Before you pack up your rice bags and go to another country and whereever you go, "
has a bit of racist tones. So please avoid it next time."

because the things were relating to his country (though I myslef thing that people talked many things wrong about India). but then he was mentioning

"Posted on 15/02/2005 10:12 pm
It is nice of you to preach what you think is right. But this is the wrong forum."

why wrong forum? if there is miss conception about Islam why not it should be discussed and cleard.

looking some previous post, its quite clear how the "Educated persons" think about Islam and how much broadminded they are.

(As Yvonne Ridley say: when I wear scarf and go in taxi, one of the taxi driver say to me "Please dont leave some bomb in this Taxi"; An example of equal right socity)

May Allah bless you.
Afzal.

@Afzal

Thanks a lot for your support, it was not the best to feel lonely, but now I am not :-)

Salam.

Hello,

The morality of the world is changing every minute. The things that were immoral are now the most respected doings. Nadia_Taleb got the answer of her original question and will be doing according to her moral needs.
To the rest of the readers, I would suggest in most strongest words NOT to criticize any religion. You are most welcome to post your problems here that what the forum is about, but before writing anyting on the forum think twice

1. You are not criticizing any religion.
2. Your remarks are not giving any sense of recialisim.
3. You are not hurting any cummunity.

I hope Detlef will not have any objection to these points.

In the end i must say that while living in any country we are obliged to respect the laws of that country.

Hi Imranahmadkhan,

thanks a lot for your suggestions! I agree, that this is a very sensitive field of discussion and some month ago I would have said, these kind of topics should not be a part of our forum.

Meanwhile, I see it a little bit different. Up to this point everybody tried to express his opinion in a way which does not blame or hurt the others (not 100 %, but acceptable).

And the comments from our Islam members are very interesting and they give us the chance to learn more about their culture than we can by reading the newspapers or watching TV reports.

In General, because of the big number of members in our forum, from around 90 different nations!! we have the chance to know and to learn more about others.

The prerequisite for this is a high level of tolerance and objectivity and I hope, that you, that we will proof, that it is possible to discuss everything and still beeing friends!

I will open up a new forum for these kind of discussions and I will watch it closely. As soon as somebody starts blaming and primitve messages, I will delete his member accout.

But I hope and I believe this will not be necessary!

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

Hi all,

I did not mean to criticise any of u guys.

I am revolted now. I am stuck between two sets of laws, from my country and from Germany, between two worlds, two mentalities.
Even if I appreciate a lot of sides of my religion, I like to call it into question… Anyway, I continue to fight with the local Bureaucratie and let’s see…

Hi Nadia,

Don't worry, I think none of us felt that you have made any kind of bad critisim.

I also think that you have un-intentionally explained some of what I was trying to say. In your last post you used the word "traditions", that's more or less what I was explaining to some of my friends in this forum.

Local traditions of some people in some countries shouldn't be linked to Islam. As an example forbidding women from driving or voting has nothing to do with practices of Islam, one the other hand wearing a headscarf is a pure practice of Islam.

Yes I am not a woman, my wife as woman wears a headscarf (by her complete will, same as millions of girls in my home country), she lives now in Germany for about of 4 years and I can feel how proud is she with the way she looks, she also finished her education as a pharmacist.

As we got some support from our firend Detlef, let try to write down some facts:

- Islam was the first (1400 years ago) to give women the right to have their own properties, completely separated from her hunband's.
- Islam considers that the most important practice after beleiving in one God is to be good for the mother (any mother is of course a woman)
- A wife has always her own freedom to decide not to work, in both cases (working or not) her husband has the responsibility to financially support the family. This has nothing to do with considering a woman as a minor, in fact this is to show Islam's appreciation to her social role in taking care of the family and raising good childeren for the whole society.
- There are about 100 thousand German native converted to Islam, most of them are WOMEN.
- Most of the people converted to Islam around the world are from the highly educated rank, mostly WOMEN as I said before.
- Islam gives a lot of tolerence towards miniorties is a muslim community. As an example in Egypt coptic people (8%) used to have and still have their own courts which treats their social cases in case they don't want to use the Islamic system. I think that complains which appear from time to time are because we as muslims are fully following our religion.

I think the Islamic culture and civilisation have a lot of good things to offer to the whole world, I just feel sorry that a very well organised media campain "not friendly as many can see" is preventing people from different countries to know more about islam. In fact Islame unlike other civilisation thinks that it is one of its duties is to transfer its knowledge and achievements to other nations and cultures. Take as an example when muslims lived in spain, Islam as leading civilisation at that time in science, geography, math, medicine, astronomy, etc. opened all of its doors to europe to use for their development. I feel very sorry when I see that very few people in Europe know that the main reason for europe to go away from the dark/middle ages was because of their contact with the Islamic civilisation.

There is no doubt that islam is under focus in those days, I think that good people will try to take the chance to know more about it.

Have a good day.

Regards.

OK.. first of all, let me tell you that I am coming from a so called Muslim-Country so I have an insider look. I read Kuran and I know what people really doing out there, so your polished words do not really effect me.


Local traditions of some people in some countries shouldn't be linked to Islam. As an example forbidding women from driving or voting has nothing to do with practices of Islam, one the other hand wearing a headscarf is a pure practice of Islam.

ok.. if local traditions are not acceptable from a human right point of view, let's try to change them and let's try not to show them acceptable by referencing other irrelavent good things. If there is a bad practice, the aim should be to avoid and change it. Nothing more.


Yes I am not a woman, my wife as woman wears a headscarf (by her complete will, same as millions of girls in my home country), she lives now in Germany for about of 4 years and I can feel how proud is she with the way she looks, she also finished her education as a pharmacist.

I respect that your wife wears a headscarf and thinks that this is the right thing to do but she should be then ready to accept that she can not serve the public(government jobs etc) with a religious symbol on her.


- Islam was the first (1400 years ago) to give women the right to have their own properties, completely separated from her hunband's.

Ok, does it change the fact of today ? does it change the fact that Kuran advices to beat the women, in case of necessity ? does it change the fact that treating women as a second class human-being has its roots in the religion ? (religion makes up the traditions)
Let's honestly accept that Islam needs a reform like Christianity needed centuries ago.(I dont say here that Christianity is now perfect, neither I am a member of that religion)
People madly refuse to see obvious truths and continue to accept dogmas just because it is written in some holy book. This is smt unacceptable for me.. come on guys, use your own brains to judge some cases, you dont need dogmas for each case.


- Islam considers that the most important practice after beleiving in one God is to be good for the mother (any mother is of course a woman)

Please do not force me to give exact references from the holy book to show how woman is considered. These polished words do not change the facts of today. If the woman deserves that much respect, I would like to see it also in the practice.


- A wife has always her own freedom to decide not to work, in both cases (working or not) her husband has the responsibility to financially support the family. This has nothing to do with considering a woman as a minor, in fact this is to show Islam's appreciation to her social role in taking care of the family and raising good childeren for the whole society.

Women at home, men at work. Hide the second-class human beings from the public eyes.


I think the Islamic culture and civilisation have a lot of good things to offer to the whole world, I just feel sorry that a very well organised media campain "not friendly as many can see" is preventing people from different countries to know more about islam. In fact Islame unlike other civilisation thinks that it is one of its duties is to transfer its knowledge and achievements to other nations and cultures.

so let's make the good things even more and let's start it by reforming the religion which seems to be the biggest obstacle of achieving other good things.


Take as an example when muslims lived in spain, Islam as leading civilisation at that time in science, geography, math, medicine, astronomy, etc. opened all of its doors to europe to use for their development. I feel very sorry when I see that very few people in Europe know that the main reason for europe to go away from the dark/middle ages was because of their contact with the Islamic civilisation.

You see, Europe got the idea and then reformed their religion which was a big obstacle in science and general development and then they achieved the success they have today, so why not doing the same for the Islam ? if we postpone these reforms, our children will suffer also from these dogmas. We should better hurry up and free ourselves from religion chains instead of trying to keep them.


There is no doubt that islam is under focus in those days, I think that good people will try to take the chance to know more about it.

No need for that, at least for me, I was born and grown up in that culture. Luckily not a fundemantalist interpretation of it.


Have a good day.


You too, but please try to understand what I am tying to say here and please do not try to introduce me the religion and give examples of what it is and what is not.. Believe me, I have enough of it and I know this religion maybe better than you do.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi Lacrima,

I am assuming that you you don't have a lot of spare time, so I will try to be short.

I will start from your last sentence:

<<<<please do not try to introduce me the religion and give examples of what it is and what is not.. Believe me, I have enough of it and I know this religion maybe better than you do>>>>

I fully disagree with you, I don't see that you either know "this" religion better than me rather than knowing it in a good and balanced way. There is nothing against you, but your words tell me that.

<<<<I read Kuran and I know what people really doing out there, so your polished words do not really effect me.>>>>

As many people know and you should also know if you have sufficient knowledge about "this" religion, quran is written in a very powerful arabic language, it was meant to challenge the local people of arabia at that time, they were really mastering their language and this was the main way to convince them that quran is revealed by God and not written by Muhammad.
There is no way that anybody can understand what quraan means by just reading a simple translation in Turkish or in any other language. More time has to be given reading translated meanings written by arabic speaking scholars. Also all muslims know that they can't fully understand the religion by just looking at quraan and ignoring the teachings of prophet Muhammad, I doubt that you have done that at all.

<<<ok.. if local traditions are not acceptable from a human right point of view, let's try to change them and let's try not to show them acceptable by referencing other irrelavent good things. If there is a bad practice, the aim should be to avoid and change it. Nothing more.>>>

I fully agree with you, in fact that's what I am personally trying to do, I am confident that more and more young muslims are joining this main stream.

<<<Let's honestly accept that Islam needs a reform like Christianity needed centuries ago.>>

I fully disagree with you, there is a big difference between christianity&christians from one side and Islam&muslims on the other side. Islam doesn't need the same kind of reformation like what happened for christianity n Europe. All what islam need is muslims who try to understand it as a complete way of life and also start to apply it a complete way of life. At the end of the middle ages, europe started to move onward because the gave up following their religion while at the same time muslims started to move backward because they started deviating from the real teachings of their religion, do you see, there is a big difference.

<<<Please do not force me to give exact references from the holy book to show how woman is considered. These polished words do not change the facts of today. >>>

You are welcomed to do what you feel can make this discussion more useful, but in this case you also can't stop me from proving a bit of light on what you submit.

<<<If the woman deserves that much respect, I would like to see it also in the practice>>>

You are rigt, I am very confident whenever we as muslims start to apply our religion as a complete way of life then everybody will see how much respect a woman can have in Islam.
If you are interested in this specific subject please don't hesitate to use my email (I posted at the beginning) and then I can share with a lot of info.

<<<No need for that, at least for me, I was born and grown up in that culture. Luckily not a fundemantalist interpretation of it>>>

Do you know that the word "fundemantalist" doesn't necessarialy point to something bad, this word in arabic means understanding an issue by looking at its roots, which I think a good approach even people who are using the word to point to bad things are also using the same approach for their scientific analysis.

I never meant to affect you in person nor affecting anybody. I just wanted to share some information with others in case they are interested. Beleive me, if there no posts directed to me I will then stop participating in this thread immediately

I have had more things to say, I tried to be short as I promised, may be I was not fully compliant with this spec. :-)

Hello Lacrima,

I dont know which country you belong to, but coming from a Muslim or so called Muslim country and having read Quran or being brought up by muslim family does not mean that you have knowledge about the religion Islam. To me it depends how you were taught.
No one is trying to make any effect on you and no one is trying to change your religion forcefully. The bitterness and the Hateredness in your writing about Islam can very well be seen. If you have some questions I would suggest that you should collect them and write them to any of the member with religion Islam. wsh have already given his private email address so that you can calirfy all the ambiguity you have in your mind.

You said that you can give exact reference from the Muslim's Holy book. Let me make it perfectly clear to you that quoting a direct reference is misleading as it does not tell the other person that what was the scenario. This leads to incorrect translation and wrong interpertation for the subject in that religion.

Let me again point out to you and the rest of the interested members that this forum is not for religious hate. If you have some questions or you believe that somethings are not correct in some religion, just collect your points with a cool head and write them to the member of that religion. In this case you should collect all your points and write to wsh or to me.

my email address is imranahmadkhan@gmail.com

If you still cannot cope with this suggestion, believe me lot of other people will be pointing fingers on the religion of their choice, which in my previos reply is something not wanted.

If you can add something valuable to Nadia_Taleb problem then i suggest you shoud reply otherwise write all your queires to me or to wsh.

P.S if any one else is willing to answers questions related to Islam please post your email addresses for the conveinence of other members.

Guys, thanks for offering your e-mail addresses, I have done myself enough research regarding this subject. I didnt just read Kuran, I read also Prophet's so called advices/doings(Hadis). I have read arabic language expert's interpretations(Tefsir). I have read enough. I have been also long enough in a Muslim country.

I made up my mind and I have my own understanding. I do respect you guys as well, I was just trying to give you my point of view. I dont hate any particular religion. I just think that religions take people away from thinking and force them accept some dogmas. This is valid for every religion. Sorry guys, I can not accept dogmas. This is my way, please also do respect me.

See for example another dogma:
wsh mentioned that no one can really understand the Kuran, because it is written in a very complicated way and in a very complicated language or what so ever. OK.. as a normal human-being who has no time to learn Arabic, what shall I do then ? I can only read the translations.. here is my personal philosophy, I dont want to see anyone between me and God so your advice of reading arabic language interpreters is also not a good idea in general. Why should I let this interpreter influence my understanding of Kuran ?
I just want to see barely what is requested from me. (maybe those interpreters are influencing people for their own benefit.. do you see how dangerous this can be ?)

Ok.. guys.. as I said, I dont hate a particular religion. I just dont like the way, the people use the religion to control other people. I also find it a pity that in Europe still some political parties put religion names in their party-names and use it as a political instrument to influence people. This is also unacceptable for me.. they have to change/reform it as well.. so nothing particular to Muslim religion.. I just happen to come from that Religion environmet and I witnessed more wrong doings of that environment.
That is all.

Regards,

Lacrima

@lacrima:
Whats your age?

@frank

Why are you asking my age ?

1 - all religions are wrong because they rely on dogmas and if dogmas are found wrong (which happened 1000 times) than whole religion shoud be found wrong
2 - there is no other religion than the one you see. islam today is that what you today see in islam counties: poorness and war.
you can not say real islam is wonderfull but that what you see is not real islam. Islam is exacty that what you see and it is bad.

even if we accept that such a islam exists than I had to say that it exists only in your head and we are currently talking about that what we see in world around us. that islam in your head is of litle interest to us.

Just to know. You talk like a mature and experienced person who has passed through many stages of life!

Hi Lacrima,

I like your last message! I agree with you. I do not think that our German parties CDU and CSU are very 'christlich' in the good sense of this, they are just conservative, in the bad sense ;-)

I think everyone should have the right to believe or not believe and I do not like our churches. Too much rules and too much useless nonsens. But our churches lost their political influences some hundred years ago and that's fine!

I remember that you wrote a very interesting message about that some month ago.

How old are you? I would also like to know ;-)

I am 55.

By the way... what do you guys and girls think about a new forum, where everybody can tell a little bit more about himself and/or his home country?

trust7 got a new team member - Juliana - and she is going to prepare such a forum.

Your suggestions are welcome!

By
Detlef

@Detlef

That new forum idea sounds quite nice to me. I would try to contribute to it as well as much as the time permits.

By the way, I am 25 and as most of the people already know, I come from Turkey.

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima,
"I just think that religions take people away from thinking and force them accept some dogmas. This is valid for every religion"

True.

ha ha ha...Just 25 and you talk as if you have read the whole of Quran, analysed all religions and decided what you want?

Strange!

You believe you can attain all worldly wisdom within 25, but you dont agree when the Indians of your age say that they have completed their "Meister Studium" and know a handful of softwares? Funny! Better look yourself in the mirror before you complain on others.

"You believe you can attain all worldly wisdom within 25, but you dont agree when the Indians of your age say that they have completed their "Meister Studium" and know a handful of softwares? Funny! Better look yourself in the mirror before you complain on others."

I didnt claim having all wordly wisdom within 25. I just explained my point of view. Having a wisdom/understanding is not necessarily proportional with your age.

Regarding the Indians, I didnt say such things(Master Studium) like they can not finish their studies at this early age. I think you are confusing me with cool dude. Please read my comments carefully before blaming me.
(I finished my University studies at the age of 22 and I know that it is possible

Regards,

Lacrima

lacrima, are you also muslim?

hai dear friends,
i am from india,andhra pradesh (state), age 27. by birth hindu,
Doing masters in germany.
I have read total forum and i totally agree with lacrima.
In india we have a lot of problems with religions,i think in the past only few people were educated so most of the people need a guide and certain fear to put them in a right way.but i think now we dont need any religion.
reason for present problems of the world are only religions,
example, second world war, india---- pakistan , palastiena---israil, in ireland .
religion is created by the human beings, first the human beings came on to the world later religion, so i think humanity is important not the religion.
so friends in each and every religion some good things and some bad things are there.
i myself feel sorry sometimes being a hindu, because my wife (german) asks me why untouchability is still there in india, crimes on woman, dowry system, widow marriages (ofcourse now this is not a big problem),
about the muslims also, why a muslim can have more than one wife, why the woman cant show her face in the public(burakha-in the black wear) and still most of the people regret to have the family planning operations, the children dont go to school rather prefer to study quran,
and so..........on,
sorry to say all this these are true,
religion is for us,we are not for the religion,
i mean to say we should accept our(religion or culture) mistakes if somebody point outs in friendly scence rather criticise them.
with love,
indogerman

Hi Friends,

I completely agree with Indogerman. Religions divide saying my "God" is better than yours. There is no such thing as my God and your God. God is one and can only be one. There was no Christianity before Jesus came and so as no buddhism before Buddha came. Buddha and Jesus Christ wanted us to teach & show us something by themselves living as an example and seved their purpose.

We are all children of God and why do we have to fight on his name instead of living peacefully and harmoniously.

I dont want to go more philosophical. Ofcourse, I will also be intrested in such discussions. Please let me know so that I can give my e-mail.

Best Regards,

@lacrima
you did not answer do you consider your self a muslim?

"We are all children of God and why do we have to fight on his name instead of living peacefully and harmoniously."

If we are all god's children than we are also gods because son is of the same kind as father.
And if it so than there is more than one god.

Ofcourse, God is there in everyones heart but one has to realize it (God Realization). God is there everywhere and so He is also there in everyone. Its the same God in everyone.

Best Regards,

@DvD and @vah

Does it play a role whether I feel myself Muslim or not ? Do you want to judge me according to my religion ?
I feel myself equally distanced to all religions on this earth.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hey Frank, (Either Frank is not your real name or your parents did not love you very much. I mean to give such a name to someone. :-))

It was me who said about Indians, but I did not write anything like you mentioned. Here is part of it.
"also Indians who are 23 or 25 years old and have more on a CV than is possible after working 20 years in IT."

I never mention anything about only getting a master's degree at a young age. I received my masters degree from MIT in the USA at age 24. Now I know that MIT is just a crappy class B school according to some in this forum, but after my studies, I managed to get a job with a class B IT organization called, well I won't tell you the name, but it starts with an O :-) which I worked at for over 10 years. Maybe you know this very small firm. After starting work I realize that I knew less about IT and business than I thought. It could be because of my poor education or it may just be normal once you are finished with you studies and start in the real World!! I have seen Indians writing CV's with only a degree at the age of 23 and 25 and claiming they have more work experience than me with over 14 years of IT experience. Also Oracle certified Indians, who could not even answer my first two questions about Oracle. I have nothing against Indians, since I have worked with some very good ones and they are in general nice people, but I have also worked and seen more rather poor working ones, who claim they know so much. If you cut many of them off from friends and colleagues, they are unable to complete their work. Indians are not smarter or better educated than other educated people in the World. But for some reason Indians feel as if they say they are Indian that means they are IT wizards. Just is not true........

As far as religion. Simple! Religion is for weak minded people........

Later,
Cool Dude!

@gc-friend
Nice answer.

@lacrima
Important question is do you believe in existence of god?

@cool dude
So according to you 98% of mankind is weak-minded.

Cool dude is cool!

@cool Dude

I know a great saying translated to english. and again my english is not that good,

"If the listener is a fool the recitor tells u vedas or holy sayings"

So my dear young or by ur words by now u shuld be old man world is full of oppurtunists, so beware there are good and bad ones, every one claims to be great, it is u who shuld select the great one.... so a person who claimed to be 24 and has 14 yrs experience, it should have been filtered in the first stage and it should have never come to the level of a senior interview person...so as ur sayings then I can also apply in the "O" even though i did not work with Oracle...

interesting...

anyway good to know ur experience

regards
Jackal.

I think DvD had spoted the main point, belief in the existance of God.
I think coool dude is wrong regarding his statement that religous people are simply weak minded, this is not because 98% of the world will be weak minded in that case.

I had many discussions with different people abuot that important question, does GOD exist? I consider it important as the whole attitude of one person towards religion will be based on its answer. Most of the people who considered themself not religious or are equi-distant from all religions gave me very weak answres, in other words most of them didn't have an answer. I am surprised that some people will ignore that important question and don't try to spend reasonable effort trying to get an answer for it, based on a honest will to find it. On the other hand you find if the question is regarding duying a Laptop then hours and hours of very well organised effort will be spent to take the right decision, weeks and months of effort in case of buying an appartment :-)

I am also surprised that some people in case of not being able "or not interested" in getting an answer to that question "does GOD exist" will be completely against religion and start to justify people's faith by saying it is "just some fear from unknown" !!

From my point of view, religion is not based on any the things people said in this thread "fear, weak minded people, etc.". It is more based on analytical thinking and a long list of evidences, may be some poor and uneducated people will not be able to explain it in a convincing way but this doesn't say that followers of religion are weak minded people.

Does GOD exist?
Yes he does.

How can you prove that if you can not see Him?
His creations prove His existance, you as a human being is one of His creation.

I don't think so, there many theories about how the whole creation started and about how humans are created.
You just said "theories", are you really convinced with these theories? why do you accept those contradicting theories and don not accept the other one which is GOD is the only creator of YOU.

I am still not convinced.
Ok, GOD has sent prophets and messangers to humans to tell them about His existance.

But prophets and messangers came talking about different GODs and different religions.
No, they are all talking about the same GOD and same religion, including Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. The fact is that some religions got corrupted intentionally or not-intentionally by its own people.

I am still not convinced.
In this case you have take a clear position based on some honst research, were prophets telling the truth or they were all lying to us?

end

I personally thought about Muhammad as a prophet, I was never able to find one single evidence that he was lying regarding his message from God. This was based on long and long research of his message "Islam"

I don't expect that everybody will come to that conclusion like me, but I expect that everybody shall try to take it seriously and give himself a chance to take a decision based on some research.

Unfortunately there are few people who do that.

I think again the main point is not what we see bad in religion, I think the main point is to have a clear answer to the question of GOD's existance.

Regards, and good weekend to everybody.

@wsh
I am not an atheist.But neither I would like to run pillar to post to be convinced from the above theories you put up.
You said 'we are gods creation'.
Would you look up it as gods work if we have some 'life in mars'..may be only handfull of microbes!Or its Mars's own god?

Would you mind putting some science into perspective when reproductions happen or when mutations happen in living beings for survival?Or its all god's rules?

Its not I am against the existance of god,But to me god means a symbol of Contentment,Health,Peace,Harmony..and all the good things in life BUT its not a way of life which is imposed on us by the religious leaders using there pirated copies of holy books!

NO OFFENCE!
PEACE!

VAH

HEY, GOD is a great subject to discuss. If you believe in god just carry on and if you don't believe also it doesn't matter. Do what you feel like doing instead of arguing about something, which is a complicated subject.

try to answer just one question.
If those holy books really come from god why did they caused so much wars?

What is worse if Torah and Bible and Kuran are from the same god, why didn't he mannaged irgendwie that people who read his books do not fight against one another?

On the end I do not think that any of those books is really holy.

A friend forwarded this powerpoint presentation ... thought of sharing it with you all here ... I have uploaded it here: http://www.geocities.com/h_bhatiya/decisionmaking.html

Size: 220K


n'joy ...

PS: No offence

@ HB

Thanks for your presentation, there was something to learn from it.

@ DvD

I think books which had been sent from God to Humans can't be blamed for the wars which we see in the world, I would say can't be blamed for unjustice wars.

There is no doubt that wars are there and in some cases can't be avoidable, humans who create wars are the only responsible for it and in lots of cases Holy books were used be them to justify, take the crusaders as an example.

I personaly think for such an important decision "deciding if God had sent any books to humans or not" I will try to take it my self, I will not let others take it for me and influence my decision.
I think if you consider those book an NOT holly based on people behaviour you are then somehow influenced by some irresponsible people.

Regards.

Lacrima,

I commend you in your efforts to educate the ineducable. It is a culture difference, and that is why some cultures are more advanced than others - the only lesson is that open cultures need to realize they have worked hard to ensure these rights and it is very easy to have them disappear at the hands of a backward-thinking plurality, viz. the USA.

Karen