I have seen a number of questions regarding people who want to work on other EU countries so I have a piece of information that might be of use to you,
specially for those with some thime in Germany thinking of emigrating to the UK.

Looking back at the last five years, I see that we have done a lot, and a
big chunk thanks to Detlef, the trust7 operator. We have changed the perception of the foreign worker,
we have changed helped changed the law, we have created workplaces and helped european companies be more competitive.

We have also profited from this, we have learned new languages and improved our skills, we have helped our home countries
and become more open to the world.

In particular I am very proud of the way we have helped each other, with our taxes, with the law. Every time some one applies
for BE or EG and has succeeded, he has enforced the application of the law, which I believe must also be applied when it benefits the citizen, not only
when it benefits the state (as in the case of taxes, for example).

Some time ago we discussed the Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 from the EU. It's purpose is to give the same (or similar) rights to
long term third country residents as normal EU citizens. In particular it gives the right to work in another EU country
(with the sad exception of Ireland, the UK and Denmark) independently or as an employee. In Germany, long term resident status is given by the Niederlassungserlaubnis

This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions)
by 23.01.2006.

The implications of this are:
* there will be more competition, the pool of talent will be considerably bigger, and more people will join this site.
* There will be more possibilities abroad as well, when looking for a job do it at EU level, Trust7 is already doing this if you are a member.

However as we have seen with the Zuwanderungsgesetz, there will be resistance, and in particular (in my opinion) some paragraphs of the
current law do not comply with this directive (for example, the NE should not expire after 6 months if the holder is in another EU country).

So if you are thinking of working in another EU country read the following links:

http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l23034.htm
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0109:EN:NOT


And tells us about your experience, if you have problems maybe the Trust7 legal team can help.


Btw, this is not legal advice.

Regards,
-a

"We have changed the perception of the foreign worker, we have changed helped changed the law, we have created workplaces and helped european companies be more competitive."

open your eyes! do you really believe that IT create new workplaces? if it would be so, nobody would pay so much to people working in IT ...

IT makes it possible to change people on software and computers. we have helped to reduct the number of workplaces.

when most things run automatically, IT professionals are not longer needed as well ... at least not so many of them ...

"Some time ago we discussed the Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 from the EU. It's purpose is to give the same (or similar) rights to long term third country residents as normal EU citizens."

Gemeindeordnung, Baden-Württemberg ;)

§12 Bürgerrecht

(1) Bürger der Gemeinde ist, wer Deutsche im Sinne von Artikel 116 des Grundgesetzes ist oder die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union besitzt (Unionsbürger), das 18. Lebensjahr vollendet hat und seit mindestens drei Monaten in der Gemeinde wohnt.
...

dream further ;)


"This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions) by 23.01.2006."

ALL member states should comply with EU-Haftbefehl ;)

i mean those officials in Brüssel can decide everything they want to decide, the question is whether it is going to work. if they go too far, EU can fall apart in no time

"open your eyes! do you really believe that IT create new workplaces? if it would be so, nobody would pay so much to people working in IT ..."

I think that is a very limited view of IT, could it be that people get paid so much because it is hard, and nobody wants to do it?

"IT makes it possible to change people on software and computers. we have helped to reduct the number of workplaces."

IT is not only rationalization and jobs are not only created in the support of IT solutions, how many projects do you personally know that would cover it's own cost? Most companies invest in IT Projects because they have to, just to continue operating.


"(1) Bürger der Gemeinde ist, wer Deutsche im Sinne von Artikel 116 des Grundgesetzes ist oder die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union besitzt (Unionsbürger), das 18. Lebensjahr vollendet hat und seit mindestens drei Monaten in der Gemeinde wohnt.
...

dream further"

Probably people keep on dreaming instead of doing something about it.

"This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions) by 23.01.2006.

ALL member states should comply with EU-Haftbefehl"

"Damit ist die Auslieferung Deutscher nicht mehr möglich, solange der Bundestag kein neues Gesetz erlässt. Den EU-Rahmenbeschluss selbst ließ der Senat unbeanstandet."

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,365623,00.html

Yes, they screwed up when they implemented the law, but they will comply.

"i mean those officials in Brüssel can decide everything they want to decide, the question is whether it is going to work. if they go too far, EU can fall apart in no time"

Well, the EU constitution failed because people fear just that. Most EU guidelines are usually a minimum of agreement with a lot of tolerance to leave national governments enough space to define their own laws. It will certainly not work if people don't want to exert the rights that are given to them.

hi all,

thanks aalvarez for your informative post.

About the possibilities of it, well, we need to wait and see. In the past it was a dream for GC holders to think about getting Niederlassungserlaubnis...so be optimistic.

Bye,

Alex

"I think that is a very limited view of IT, could it be that people get paid so much because it is hard, and nobody wants to do it?"

therefore we have so many students in the universities studying IT, the ones that will improve the german economy working really hard for 1-2-euros for hour once they finish their studies ...

"how many projects do you personally know that would cover it's own cost?"

in Germany? every project i participated in, even if the things went not as it were expected ;)

"Most companies invest in IT Projects because they have to, just to continue operating."

probably in 90-th, not now and surely not in Germany. the current state of art in project management makes it nearly impossible for programmers to trick their employers into something like that. if some companies decide to save money and trust programmers, they fill ranges of bancrupts really fast

"Yes, they screwed up when they implemented the law, but they will comply."

i very doubt it, because it is like exploding a bomb in own hands

BVerfG just decided a case like it should be decided without saying that it does not comply with a directive. why oppose something directly if it's possible to get the necessary result without opposing anything?

"It will certainly not work if people don't want to exert the rights that are given to them."

The question is not in exertion of rights, it is more in giving away something that makes nation a nation. the officials in Brüssel tend to think that there are no differences between people from different countries whatsoever when they write their directives. that's a grave mistake.

"About the possibilities of it, well, we need to wait and see. In the past it was a dream for GC holders to think about getting Niederlassungserlaubnis...so be optimistic."

I myself would personally oppose such a thing. if somebody wants to have same rights with the natives, they are welcomed to apply for a german citizenship. you can not work , for example, for India and choose how Germany should live, that's my personal opinion

moreover, it would be better for foreigners as well if they do not get those same rights. 'cause otherwise i see the growth of support of NPD as something really inevitable

Hi "-",

I don't know why, but you always take extrem examples. Yes, there are german IT newbies who will want to work cheaper than ones with experience. But many of us (GCs) are still in Germany and I'm sure with a good salary.

"I myself would personally oppose such a thing. if somebody wants to have same rights with the natives, they are welcomed to apply for a german citizenship. you can not work , for example, for India and choose how Germany should live, that's my personal opinion"

Well, getting the german citizenship for many of us means to lose our native citizenship. As you may say, it's a personal decision to do it and it should be independent if I decide to stay or leave Germany.

We can live here and have almost the same rights as natives and it should be Ok. Mainly the option to work without restrictions is some that every foreign is trying to do when he/she is another country.

I'm not going to talk about what is good or what is bad (it would be an endless discussion) but simply what it's better for me and my family. So, I hope that this EU directive be accepted, that's all. I'm very sure that if that happens you will be happy too :-)

"I don't know why, but you always take extrem examples. Yes, there are german IT newbies who will want to work cheaper than ones with experience."

heh you didn't understand me. i meant that there will be no work places for those students on the market -> they will have to apply for Alg II -> Alg II means that you can be asked to work for 1-2-euros per hour, and you can't refuse that offer

this was a counterargument to the statement from alvarez who said that working in IT is hard and nobody wants to do it

"Mainly the option to work without restrictions is some that every foreign is trying to do when he/she is another country."

lol germans can not give you the possibility to work without restrictions even if they wanted to. try to persuade people from other EU-countries that you do not need their work permits when you have german NE ;) for example, french ;)

"So, I hope that this EU directive be accepted, that's all."

i am just reading that directive ;)

#16 - not possible. the trend goes in other way - simplification of expulsion procedures, even for those who lived in Germany 20 years and have german citizenship. the bombs in London will even make it worse

#18, 19 - that's what people here really want, but as i said it does not depend from germans. and btw it is not real as well - when old EU-members close their labour markets for new members, how it is possible to expect that they will open those for non-EU-citizens?


anyhow after reading it i can say: that directive in reality does not give you same rights with natives or EU-citizens, and it even does not give you similar rights

"this was a counterargument to the statement from alvarez who said that working in IT is hard and nobody wants to do it"

But well, that applies for most of the fields and it doesn't mean that IT isn't hard at all. Anyway this is out-of-topic.

"lol germans can not give you the possibility to work without restrictions even if they wanted to. try to persuade people from other EU-countries that you do not need their work permits when you have german NE for example, french"

In fact, as far as I know, Germany voted against it. I suppose that each EU-country should (must) accepted if it is approved. If that wasn't the case, then why create this directive anyway?

"#16 - not possible.........how it is possible to expect that they will open those for non-EU-citizens?"

I'm assuming that the EU members already discussed your points. As far as understood aalvarez:

"This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions)
by 23.01.2006."

So, there is nothing to approve, it's already there, even if you don't like it ;-)

"that directive in reality does not give you same rights with natives or EU-citizens, and it even does not give you similar rights"

Every law/policy that help me to improve my situation in Germany/EU is a plus. Just look how happy are the people who are right now getting their Niederlassungserlaubnis.

Yes, I remember you telling that the people who were expecting to get Niederlassungserlaubnis (before the Inmigration Law was approved) were dreamers...

Hi All,
There some new stuff regarding this topic, so I thought I should inform you guys as well..

New German Government(Merkel & Co) is planning to accept some bunch of new regulations(in order to conform 2003/109/EC mentioned by aalvarez in this thread) regarding residence permits of the foreigners living in Germany.. the draft can be downloaded from this link..
http://www.fluechtlingsinfo-berlin.de/fr/pdf/BMI_AendG_ZuwG_030106.pdf
(The changes mentioned in the draft will be most probably part of the new residence law)

There are some interesting points mentioned in the draft:

1-) There will be a new kind of "Niederlassungserlaubnis" which will be named "Niederlassungserlaubnis - Daueraufenthalt EG". With this kind of permit, one will be able work/live in all EU without any other permit. (like an EU Citizen)

2-) This kind of permit will not be unvalid, if the person is still in EU. (A permit taken in Germany will not become invalid, if one starts to live in another EU-State and hence stays more than 6 months out of Germany)

3-) For the holders of this kind of permit, the unvalidity will become effective after they leave EU territory for more than 12 months..(not 6 months)

4-) For this kind of permit(and also for "normal" Niederlassungserlaubnis) the time spent under Student residence permit will be counted.. but the duration of these kind of student residence permits will be divided by 2 for the calculation of the needed 5 years..

Interesting stuff.. huh ? let's see, when this draft becomes reality.. but I guess it should be voted in German Parlement this month or so..
If you guys know more about it, please do share..

and as a last note, this new kind of "Niederlassungserlaubnis" does not require any new conditions compared to the old one.. so basicly the people who are/were in the position of getting the old Niederlassungserlaubnis can get the new one as well.. (there are exceptional cases for asylum seekers & co though)

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima

I thought the deadline for transposition of directive 2003/109/EC in the EU Member States was 23 January 2006, until then all EU Member States must have made necessary changes in law to accommodate this directive, ofcourse with exception of UK, Ireland and Denmark. Do you think Merkel & Co. can manage all this in one week?

For example the Govt. of Latvia has alrealy impemented this directive.
http://www.ocma.gov.lv/?_p=454&menu__id=124


Here is some info on how a new law is passed in Germany :-)
http://www.bundesregierung.de/Anlage567692/Gesetzesinitiative_2.gif

"Do you think Merkel & Co. can manage all this in one week?"

That is a good question Akshay.. knowing the fact that last immigration law discussion took all different exotic German parlements(How many of them are there actually ? ) 4 years (written "foúr") to complete, I am not that optmistic about a quick decision on this new residence law.. but let's see..

Regards,

Lacrima

@Akshay

For example the Govt. of Latvia has alrealy impemented this directive.
http://www.ocma.go...=454&menu__id=124

i donot think someone from africa/asia/south america or even middle-east would like to live in latvia. if at all someone has to live in latvia, prolly would choose their own "third-world" country. this is the researh from one of my colleague who did his doctorate in major immegration. rather people hope those changes either in eu-3

@instructor

This was just an example of some countries having accommodated directive 2003/109/EC in their immigration policy.

It is totally irrelevant if Latvia is a country worth migrating or not.

@Akshay

"This was just an example of some countries having accommodated directive 2003/109/EC in their immigration policy"

yes, the directive may be quite useful as you said.

"It is totally irrelevant if Latvia is a country worth migrating or not."

i am not sure about that. if someone create new law about immigration (eg. east timor/indian overseas citizenship), i really cannot say that would affect our life in eu as of now. may be later, after some decades?

@intructor,

I wonder about your I.Q level that you compare India and east Timor.

If its its close to the world average that you would not have done it. ...or els you have done it purposely.
I wonder who has given you an employment...The future of that company is really bad...or are you on asylum / social benifits(In that case you are right about India, they don't invite such liabilities).

Cheers

@havehope

"I wonder about your I.Q level that you compare India and east Timor."

did i ever compare india and east timor? please look into the post properly. by the way why do you care about my i.q? i think that your i.q is better than mine.

"If its its close to the world average that you would not have done it. ...or els you have done it purposely."

see again my i.q is not good enough.

"I wonder who has given you an employment..."

you know everyone has chance to their level, so some company have given me some kinda work as anyone else.

"The future of that company is really bad..."

i really cannot answer to this, because i donot posses same i.q as you do and sorry for that.

"or are you on asylum / social benifits"

no, i am not asylum or depend on the social benifits.

(In that case you are right about India, they don't invite such liabilities).

why should i comment on indian system? which i donot know much about.

i just would like to know, what rights you have to question my i.q?

@havehope

I know something from instructor has stuck into your bottom and turned into red color? What the Hell was that?

"I wonder about your I.Q level that you compare India and east Timor."

What kind of !d!ot!c I.Q level do you have to compare instructor?

"If its its close to the world average that you would not have done it. ...or els you have done it purposely."

What the F**K you want to talk about here?
It seems like you are trying to keep all your desperation and frustration on instructor.

"I wonder who has given you an employment..."

Which a55 has given you a job and on what base when you have such a tiny d!*K Head? Tell that first before talking to instructor.

"The future of that company is really bad..."

So you consider yourself as GOD? you stnpid! first try to look your bottom before pointing your finger.

"or are you on asylum / social benifits"

Seems like you are one among those and trying to point it to somebody else?

"(In that case you are right about India, they don't invite such liabilities)."

Before talking about India, clean up your own bottom before. Infact India does'nt need thoase liabilities.

Are you one among from Eastern EU or Latvia by any chance?

What made your bottom red colour to attack instructor? I just got involved as you did!!!

This new law for foreigns seems to be open for exploitation. Older EU members haven't opened the new flexibility immediately, but newer EU countries seem to do so. This is a way to exploit the EU "flexibility".

Take another example: I am seeing around the ads about Czech driving licenses. They claim that it's easier to get a driving license from Czech Republic. A lot of people are taking their driving licenses from Czech Republic and drive in Germany for long.

I don't address here that what they do is wrong. I just point a real fact in daily life.

Why coming to Germany and fighting years long for an unlimited residence permit with a lot rules, compared to another EU country who gives you a permit that is valid for other EU members, which don't give that flexibility?

Interesting, isn't it?
Klenze17.

"Why coming to Germany and fighting years long for an unlimited residence permit with a lot rules, compared to another EU country who gives you a permit that is valid for other EU members, which don't give that flexibility"

Well.. that is a challange for EU.. they should try to establish same/similar standards/conditions in every state but this is also the case in USA.. not every state of USA has the same difficulty level for getting a driving licence.. and the same standards..

Some countries of EU has been already giving their citizenship much easier than Germany for decades.. (and their citizenship means work-residence permit in Germany) but it didnt create a problem till today either..

I would not see the new advantages of an EU wide permanent residence permit as a source for "exploitation", if citizens of the EU states can freely move/work, why should not the legal permanent residences of those states be able to do it ? makes perfectly sense.. such an "exploitation" point of view sees the foreigners
as "slaves" and the host countries as "masters".. in my point of view legal residences of EU states do not exploit anything.. they are human beings living there just like the "normal" citizens of EU states..

Nichts für Ungut.. ;)

Regards,

Lacrima

Come on, guys....just because we got PR in Germany doesn't mean that we got the right to grumble against PR from countries like Poland, Latvia...etc. I agree, life isn't fair that these PR from new EU members countries have got dessert served on plate :-)

@Akshay,

"Come on, guys....just because we got PR in Germany doesn't mean that we got the right to grumble against PR from countries like Poland, Latvia...etc."

i did not see anyone insulting "pr" from countries like poland, latvia (formar third-world countries) even if someone commenting on that issue, why not? of course everyone has right to say anything they think is right as you do or?

"I agree, life isn't fair that these PR from new EU members countries have got dessert served on plate "

i also did not see anyone saying life is'nt fair there, how did you arrive to this conclusion? unfortunatly less people interested in dessert (natürlich ohne vogelgrippe )

@jumbo...

You should mind your language and your own business.
Your language shows your background.
No one has a right to insult any country specially on this foroum as we all know that this is shared by pepole from many countries.

Instructor tried to bring in India without any reason.. so that dserved a response.

I wonder what prompted you r response.

Now do not respond to this in your mother tongue
as you used iit your last response.
Please reserve it for your loved ones(if you have any).

@havehope

"You should mind your language and your own business."

You should have done that before pointing it to someone else. Did you do that? since you've crossed line and of course got slapped. Who the "F**K" started questioning I.Q of others? Please the forum once again who started? and questioning about job?

"Your language shows your background."

Yours as well, once again read properly from the start.

"No one has a right to insult any country specially on this foroum as we all know that this is shared by pepole from many countries."

Please mind, no one has right to insult other person as you did to "instructor".

"Instructor tried to bring in India without any reason.. so that dserved a response."

Of course and you deserved my response for your non-sense response and behaviour.

"I wonder what prompted you r response."

Oh dear, read again properly and everyone here know better what prompted. It was just your non-sense behaviour. If you'd corrected it, this would'nt have happned.

"Now do not respond to this in your mother tongue
as you used iit your last response."

How dare!, you mo*§&r s+C€r, do you want to dictate me? What right you've to do that? Keep all these BU*L SNIT in your underwear and just smell-it yourself.

"Please reserve it for your loved ones(if you have any)."

I do reserve those language (especially guys like you) as long as you behave like an "!D!O#".

So finally, this is an professional open forum, try to behave properly otherwise there are ten guys out there to turn otherside!

Hi,

please stop the unnecessary junk messages! If the original message would not be so important, I would like to delete the whole thing!

@ havehope

Nobody had the intention to say anything against your home country! You are a bit over sensible. Imagine yourself in my position... how many messages are very critical and sometimes more than that about Germany, my home country. What if I would always attack somebody, just because he might think bad about my nation?

This forum would not exist! So keep cool and do communicate with others like you want them to communicate with you.

Okay?

I wish all of you a nice evening!
Detlef :-)

Here is some interesting news...

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_01_24/europe/few_eu_states_implement_immigration_legislation.htm

Hello to you all,Ive been working in germany for the last 15 years,and its very clear to see that germans attitudes towards foreigners worsening.this is a point that germans might not be able to recognise.that why i beleive such forums exsist to discuss these things.

Hi there,
Take a look at http://www.zdeutsch.com/

Hi there,
Take a look at http://www.zdeutsch.com/