http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,307912,00.html

und ?

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_1262367_1_A,00.html

here its saying it will be activated from Jun 1, 2005.

Detlef, it would be nice if you could explain the major points.

Ahmed

und wo ist Sekt

hurrraaahhhh !!!!

Hi fellow GC´s,

Now here comes the question: "Does it have something for GC´s like us?" And what does the term "Hochqualifizierte" mean at last?

Does this article from Frankfurter Allgemeinegive us hope?

"2. Arbeitsmigration:
Hochqualifizierte - etwa Wissenschaftler oder Computerfachleute - können nun von Anfang an eine unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis erlangen und sich in Deutschland niederlassen. "

Mehr dazu hier:
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub812F1B901A514F208C613F6B1B336BCC/
Doc~ECC88ADBC779F433B8C4D976D25DE9D97~ATpl~
Ecommon~Scontent.html

Moment.....did someone say June 1 ??? :-o

FAZ says so :-(

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_1262367_1_A,00.html

here it says that it will be activated from June 1 2005...:-((

Hi guys ,

Law is passed but whats in the law .

I guess mr detlef is the right person to tell us whats really in it .

Whats in for GC ?

Cheers,pac

hmm.. at last..

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0433.html
here it says: valid from Jan-2005.

ok.. I still have some doubts about this law..
Is it final acceptance?? or again it has to be also accepted by Bundesrat/blablarat??I don't know much about these "rat"s??

Jelda

Hi *,

read this from FAZ:
Das neue Gesetz wird nach seiner Verabschiedung im Bundestag und im Bundesrat am 1. Januar 2005 in Kraft treten.

So it seems, that the 1st June is just a mistake.

You can find link to the content of the law in our 'Immigration' section ( since more than 2 years already ). The main points are still the same.

Have a nice weekend
Detlef

Hi,

"Is it final acceptance?? or again it has to be also accepted by Bundesrat/blablarat??I don't know much about these "rat"s??"

I too either have not much knowledge abt these rats.But if i understood
correctly,the so-called "Bundestag & Bundesrat " are lower and upper house
of the German parlement.Since the both houses of parlement have accepted
the law,It has to be signed by the Bundespresident.

Impropriate message: You know what, I miss Sudaca aka Diego.

Are you still there?

DD

the immigration law was adopted today by the Bundesrat to. yes it is officialy a law now. I propose that we alo try to get an official answer about our situation and how will this law affect us. The main problem that we see is not if we get that PR after 5 years but what are the condition to renew the current work permit. This is not clear. Everyone talked about PR but that is not so important..if after this 5 years we could get another 2-3 years visa automaticaly than that would be enaugh. This case must be studied rather than the PR thing. We should all concentrate to get answers for this question coze if we obtain this renewall than the PR will be a natural extension. we should try to make a mem orandum and get it signed by peoples and send ti to the government. we should request for an official and concrete answer to the question what heapends after the 5 years if we don't qualify for a PR(many GCs had 2-3 months of unimplyment and they won't qualify for that 60 months of paying rent needed for PR). We did once something like this..I think NOW its the time to do it AGAIN coze we have the law and hope in sight! What do you think?

Hey Dude

Count me in please. I totally agree with U.

Where I have to sign?

YO

PS: By the way, Sudaca is absolutely inmerse in work, maybe also not in Germany. I´ll try to email him.

As writte in FAZ newspapper,

"2. Arbeitsmigration: Hochqualifizierte - etwa Wissenschaftler oder Computerfachleute - können nun von Anfang an eine unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis erlangen und sich in Deutschland niederlassen."

Computerfachleute are we.

People come, please wait untill 2005.

I had mailed to DW about the possible error. Now they have changed it to "1.Jan 2005":
The Upper House also passed Germany's first law on immigration, which will go into effect on Jan. 1, 2005.

spiegel.de says:
Das Zuwanderungsgesetz ist endgültig unter Dach und Fach. Der Bundesrat stimmte am Freitag in Berlin dem Gesetz zu, das Anfang 2005 in Kraft treten soll.

We are all sure that its 1. January, right?

Hello guys!

I don't really know why you guys are so afraid that you will not be able to extend your visa if you have a work here. By which low you believe you can loose your visa? I don't see any way for someone to loose his visa while having a job here. The government is even trying to make it easy for a new non-EU people to come (of course if they have a job offer that cannot be fulfilled by a German or EU citizen). The point with the new low is to have GC-like posibility for all professions, not only IT.

The only problem we had with GC is that it was not possible to extend it. And now with the new zuwanderunggezetz it is!

Best regards,
Gordan

Hi all!

YO was right, I am really out of the loop now. As a matter of fact, I am writing this from Liverpool, UK, though I still work in Germany.

I am glad the law finally got passed. I agree with the idea of carefully moving the pieces to see what exactly is going to happen with GCs. By 1st. of January 2005 there will be GCs with less than a year to go, and it would be nice to have an idea way before that time.

Yet again, we got to be careful on how this pieces are moved. One year ago, we had a good momentum when Detlef was making the big calls. I can only hope my good friend Detlef is not too tired right now, because I still think our best chances of getting a decent spotlight are only if we lay low, we present a consistent message, we concentrate on the important and refuse to argue around the accesories.

As usual, much of the real stuff will be decided on how the law is implemented. I think a general outline of what we should present as a common face is: we are glad the law got through, we are grateful to this country and the opportunities we found here, and we are willing to continue to give our best under the new legal frame.

But please: let's not start discussing about social benefits, language courses or any other kind of state subvention!!! This is just crumbs, and doesn't make the point. Paradoxically, I think that the best chance we stand on closing this chapter in a happy and successful way is to just forget about benefits and concentrate in what we have to give.

This, I think, are the only things that makes us different -and important- as a group: we are already here, we speak the language, we live the culture, and we have already added value to our employers.

From where I see it, there is only a short way still to go. Only concentrating on what we can give, and in the big picture (and believe me, this is a huge step for Germany and Europe as a whole), we may be able to arrive to the one thing I believe is worth standing for: our peace of mind, the chance of planning and dreaming a future for our families, on the basis of a fair deal.

Cheers,

Diego aka Sudaca.

@Diego

That was quiet an impressive write-up; well thought out.

Hello All,

I am new in this forum.
It is a good platform for us.
Many thanks to all who are sharing their experiences here.
Thanks a lot to Mr. Detlef for his co-operation.
It's a good news that new immigration law has been passed.

Could anyone provide me the complete content of the law in english.

Thanks in advance

Hello everybody,
It is a very exciting news to hear that the Immigration Law have been passed by both houses.I am not a GC, but an IT Master Student at a German University.I am supposed to finish my study by October 2005.
It has been stated in the law that foreign students will be allowed to stay for 1 year to look for a Job.
My questions are :
1)Which status those foreign students are going to have in the period that they are looking for job ???
2)Will they have a status of a student or a status of an employee while searching for job???
3)How are they going to deal with health insurance and so on ???
4)What is the maximum period to make a "Fachpratikum" and how will the fresh graduated student get one???
Hope to read your reply very soon.
Especially, I will be glad if Detlef can give more informations about my questions.
However, my questions are opened to everybody.

Hi ,

Does not matter if you didn't work all 5 years. It' s important to have a residence permit for 5 years and to pay for the social assurance for this period. If you didn't pay, you can pay VOLUNTARY, so that is not a problem.

Regards,
Marius

Hi all....

Can anyone answer me if during unemployment period over Arbeirsamt ( I was receicing 'arbeitloosgeld') the Arbeitsamt pay the 'rente - sociale' versicherung...
I am interested because of this new law which is saying that 60 months must have social security payment....
Madnes with this law ....I hope we shall all stay alaive to see what will happened with the first GC which will apply or have Niederlasung (unbefristete) visum.....

MAX

Is there any PDF file aval. for this law or we have to wait for few more month??

"Can anyone answer me if during unemployment period over Arbeirsamt ( I was receicing 'arbeitloosgeld') the Arbeitsamt pay the 'rente - sociale' versicherung..."

Yes

Hallo all, i was earlier here, but do not have so much time...
so you ladies and guys have to learn german (some of you) i switch now...

ich habe eine Frage bezüglich Niederlassungserlaubnis
ich glaube ich habe die alle aufgezählt. Frage ist, müssen alle auf ein mal zustimmen, oder es reicht wenn ich schon über 60 monate Beiträge bezahlt habe

da meine Story als GC seeeeeeeeehr kompliziert ist, will ich wissen ob ich bis oktober 2005 warten muss wenn ich dann 5 jahre GC aufehthalt habe oder kann ich schon z.b. im januar oder februar hingehen,
Eine sehr wichtige Frage ist auch -> Kann ich die GC Zeit mit der Zeit der Aufenthaltsbewilligung von Früher zusammenrechnen ?

---------------------------------------------------- §9
-er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,
-sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist,
-er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung ...
-er in den letzten drei Jahren nicht wegen einer vorsätzlichen Straftat zu einer ...ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,
-er im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist,
-er über ausreichende Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache verfügt,
-er über Grundkenntnisse der Rechts... und häuslicher Gemeinschaft lebenden Familienangehörigen verfügt.
----------------------------------------------------------

LG aus Berlin

" Kann ich die GC Zeit mit der Zeit der Aufenthaltsbewilligung von Früher zusammenrechnen ? "

before was Aufenthaltsbewilligung not counted.
but today there is no Aufenthaltsbewilligung or anything else. Only Aufenthatlserlaubniss.
So it is possible that Aufenthaltsbewilligung will be counted becuse it has pandan only in AE in new law.
Sicher bin ich nicht.

sorry es war die Befugnis , die Aufenthaltsbefugnis gab es früher, die Bewilligung ist nicht anrechbar.

Da ich früher für fast ein Jahr auch die Befugnis hatte, will ich wissen, ob ich dann auf Grund dessen gleich im Jan. meine "Niederlassung" bekommen könnte.

oder reicht es schon mit den 60 Monaten der Bezahlung die ich schon, aufgrund von sehe oben, habe.

Befugnis oder Bewilligung ist egal.
Beide gibt es nicht mehr und frage ist wie wird beide berechnet.
Früher war beide nicht angerechnet aber das beide ist in ZuwG AE und es kann sein dass das angerechnet wird.
Aber eher nicht.
Sicher bin ich nicht.

Also ich muss doch bis oktober warten ?
jedoch da wir die Fachkäfte sind und das neue gesetz schon im jan. startet können wir schon einen antrag auf niederlassungserlaubnis machen, da wir schon arbeit haben, so wie ich es verstanden habe....

es mag sein das die Zeiten unter deine Aufenthaltsbefugnis doch angerechnet werden Können, vielleicht aber nur Anteilig, das ist von Land zu Land unterschiedlich (glaube ich), ausserdem ist die Zweck auch wichtig (Studieren, z.B.). Ich würde erst mal gehen und fragen, wie Gut die möglichkeiten für deine Antrag sind. Fragen kostet nichts.

Na ja , falls Du die Damen dort schon mall gesprochen hast, dann ist Dir klar, dass Die auch manchmall alles 100 % wissen und unschlussig sind.
ich meine mir ist egal ob ich bis oktober warten soll oder gleich im jan-feb es erledigen kann. jedoch 6 -10 monate früher es zu erledigen sind auch nicht schlecht...
auf jeden fall ist klar , dass unbefristet im oktober folgen soll ...

"Ich würde erst mal gehen und fragen"

es muss klar sein dass auch viele Beamter haben davon keine Ahnung. ZuwG ist neu und es gibt keine VwV. Leute in AB möchten nichts sagen wenn die nicht VwV bekommen haben und desto nicht sicher sind.

Ich wollte hiermit nur bekannt machen warum mit dem Zuwanderungsgesetz wir nach 5 Jahre hier bleiben können.
In Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für IT-Fachkräfte (http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/it_argv.html, vom 11. Juli 2000, BGBl I 2000, S. 1146 zuletzt geändert durch Artikel 110 des dritten Gesetzes für moderne Dienstleistungen am Arbeitsmarkt vom 23.12.2003 ,BGBl. I S. 2848) steht:

"§ 6 Beantragungszeitraum und Geltungsdauer der Arbeitserlaubnis
(1)....
(2) Die Arbeitserlaubnis wird bei der Erteilung auf die Dauer der Beschäftigung, längstens auf fünf Jahre befristet. Bei mehreren aufeinander folgenden Beschäftigungen dürfen die Arbeitserlaubnisse bis zu einer Gesamtgeltungsdauer von fünf Jahren erteilt werden."

deshalb die alte Regelungen könnte uns nicht helfen unsere Arbeitserlaubnis und bzw. Aufenthaltserlaubnis nach 5 Jahre zu verlängern.
Aber in neuem Zuwanderungsgesetz kann man es machen weil so Bald es in Kraft tritt, tritt alte Gesetze außer Kraft(http://www.bmi.bund.de/Annex/de_25620/Gesetzestext_des_Zuwanderungsgesetzes_Arbeitsgrundlage.pdf):

"(3) Im Übrigen tritt dieses Gesetz am 1. Januar 2005 in
Kraft; gleichzeitig treten
1-...
2-das Aufenthaltsgesetz/EWG in der Fassung der
Bekanntmachung vom 31. Januar 1980 (BGBl. I
S. 116), zuletzt geändert durch Artikel 34 des Gesetzes
vom 23. Dezember 2003 (BGBl. I S. 2848),
....
3-...
außer Kraft"

dann wenn Green-Card-Verordnung außer Kraft tritt, haben wir nach 5 Jahre den Anspruch hier zu bleiben! das geht nicht um dürfen sondern um ANSPRUCH!
Aber soll man auch aufpassen (Zuwanderungsgesetzes):

"Verletzt ein Ausländer seine Verpflichtung nach § 44a Abs. 1 Satz 1 Nr. 1 zur ordnungsgemäßen Teilnahme
an einem Integrationskurs, so ist dies bei der Entscheidung über die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis zu berücksichtigen. Besteht kein Anspruch auf die Erteilung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis, so kann die Verlängerung
der Aufenthaltserlaubnis abgelehnt werden."

schöne Grüße aus Stuttgart

Hallo hrk,

Das is total richtig was du geschrieben hast... Aber, die Frage bleibt bis jetzt unklar:

Müssen Man nach 5 Jahre ein Job hanen um die unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis zu bekommen? (bzw. braucht Man unbefristeter Arbeitsvertrag??), oder sind die 5 Jahre genug für die unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis zu bekommen egal ob Man nach 5 Jahre ein Job hat???

Grüße aus Nürnberg!
Zash

Hello everybody,

I am quite new to this Forums. I am a greencard holders.
I know that Finally immigrations law was passed but eventually I have't understood yet does it concern also us or not ?
Could we apply for it from Jan. 2005 ?

thanks for your help

Hallo zash,

Ich weiß was Du meinst und ich wollte nur ein bisschen ins Detail gehen warum! (obwohl es vorher allgemein ein Paar Mal hier diskutiert worden ist)

Ich denke es gibt viele solche offene Fragen. und meiner Meinung nach kann es nicht außer zwei folgenden Situationen sein:
1-sie werden es klar in Bundesgesetzblatt oder Verwaltungsvorschrift für alle Bundesländer bestimmen was man genau braucht eine Niederlassung zu bekommen (Formulare, Dokumente, Zeugnisse und ... )
2-jede Bundesland entscheidet sich was man braucht...

und so bald wie es geschrieben wird, können wir die Fragen antworten, vorher alle Aussagen sind Schätzungen und kann man nicht darauf vertrauen!

Gruß
hrk

Hallo hrk,

Danke für deine Antwort! Du hast recht, wir müssen noch warten bis Alles klar steht...

Grüße.
Zash

Here is the new law

http://www.bmi.bund.de/Annex/de_25620/Gesetzestext_des_Zuwanderungsgesetzes_Arbeitsgrundlage.pdf

enjoy

Dear Detlef,

As we have Immigration Law in German. Could we expect the law in English as well(would be great help to know about the law in deep).

VSK

Hello VSK

The draft of the law is already on this site in English.
If you press on Immigration above, you can there see the link to the english version of the law draft.
Regards,
Zash

Hi Zash,

Do you mean in Trust7? I have this document already.. is it new document?

VSK

I think it is the same regarding the GC, I mean regarding unbefristite and so on... I hope Detlef assures this info?

Hi GCs,

the draft has not be changed much, especially regarding the 'Arbeitsmigration', so you can still use the draft. As soon as I find an english translation of the new law, I will let you know.

I support the petition, but I guess, the chances of getting an answer are little. Especially because we have the summer break now, Sommerpause.

So do not expect fast results, but I am very optimistic (as always :-) ), there will be a solution for Green Card people.

Have a nice evening
Detlef

I saw that guys allready got few answers that explained GClers situation according to old law.
So I think they will probably get answers according to new law too. But not before sommer ends and VwV are done.

Hi,

I am new to this forum. I have read most of the discussions about the new immigration law. I am not a GC holder, I am working as an electrical engineer in a telecom. organisation. I have on my passport an AUFENHALTERLAUBNIS which was for 1 year at the beginning. It is currently being extended every 2 years, my work permit has to be renewed every year. Does anybody now what are the main differences between my status and a GC holder, especially from the new law's point of view?

If I am not using the right forum for asking this question would somebody let me know.

Thanks,

Wael

Hi All,

My opinion is that the new low does not make a difference between GC and non-GC residence/working permits.
If someone has different opinion please tell it.

That's another reason why GC people shouldn't be worried about extending their visas in case they have les then 60 working months here. The new low does not affect only 15.000 GC but all foreign (non-EU) people working in Germany whose number is much bigger (possibly > 100000).

Regards!

Hi,

I am confident that at some point the new immigration law will help to define the situation of the GCers.
This will most probably happen, because this law is supossed to allow a permanent residence status to foreigners currently living in Germany, BUT not because all CGers are regarded as "Highly Qualified" (except for very rare cases).
The CDU/CSU could impose the restriction, that in order to qualify for that status, one has to have a salary of at least 84.000 EUR yearly.
This is of course an unrealistic assumption im most cases, so in fact, what this new law does is avoiding any access to the labour market.
Thus, telling that this law permits immigration for qualified workforce is just a marketing trick, in order to calm the request of the German industry, which really wanted to be have easier means to employ qualified people. What this new "immigration" law practically does is avoiding any immigration in the labour market, confirming again the Germans unjustified fear for anything that is not German, even if this is not economical sensible.

Click on this link for some more information

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0437.html

I do not know why some people try it again and again to confuse the GCs.

Daniel, did you read the law or just this very badly researched article? Why everybody cares about who is 'Hochqualifiziert' and who is not? There is only 1 big difference, the so called 'Hochqualifizierte' can apply for the 'Niederlassungserlaubnis' at the beginning of their stay in Germany, the others after 5 years.

It does not matter if these 5 years had been gathered as a GC or under any other circumstances, as long as some one paid into our social system for 60 month (even if the Arbeitsamt paid some month for him) and as long as he or she is employed, one can apply for the Niederlassungserlaubnis.

Who or which professions are allowed to come depends on the economical situation. The 'Bundesagentur' for employment will decide if a special branch of profession is needed, for example engineers, and they will give a general permission for those professionals to migrate to Germany, if they have a contract with a German company. Like it is with IT people. Additionally there will be some other possibilities for special regions, where the local employmnet offices give the permission to German companies to hire foreign experts. For example hospital doctors for East German hospitals.

At the moment nobody knows if there will be minimum salary required or not, but if so, it will be like the GC salary or less.

I wish all these journalists or other people would do their job a bit more careful before they write such things.

Have a nice evening
Detlef

I'm new to this forum and find a lot of information very useful, thank you.
My situation is a bit not clear and would like to get your opinion.

I'm GC holder since July 2001, my problem is that i had left Germany for 1,5 year for business purpose in my home country(creation of a branch of my German employer), and when i return to Munich, i get a work permit valid until July 2006, while RP permit valid until 2009.
On the expiry of my work permit, i will have only 42 month of social security contribution in Germany, and stayed only 3,5 year.

Does anyone have information if i can renew my WP on July 2006, or eventually get PR?
Thanks
Az

Hi Detlef,

I agree with what you say. But please note that this "small" difference between "hochqualifizierte" and the rest makes a world of difference to us. I am aware that this might sound a bit rough, but neither your optimism nor the non-binding opinions of the Innenministerium can give us *now* a *100%* guarantee of success when we apply for a Niederlassungserlaubnis after the five years. And without such guarantee, we have lots of problems, among others finding a new long-term job, since we cannot show that we may work legally in Germany for more than a year or so; And we definitely need to already have a long-term job when the time comes -- doesn't that sound like Catch 22 to you? Another problem -- have you tried to buy anything "auf Ratenzahlung", when your Aufenthaltserlaubnis expires within a year and a half?

So, I find that the article in question is not so ill-researched as it seems. The "GreenCard Problem," or the main problem of the GC holders, has not been solved yet.

Regards,
Flado

Hi Detlef,

You said:
"Daniel, did you read the law or just this very badly researched article? Why everybody cares about who is 'Hochqualifiziert' and who is not? There is only 1 big difference, the so called 'Hochqualifizierte' can apply for the 'Niederlassungserlaubnis' at the beginning of their stay in Germany, the others after 5 years."

I'm sorry, could you please show the paragraph which states that the old regulation about this 5 years prerequisites for unlimited PR still valids in das neue Zuwanderungsgesetz? I think my German is not enough sufficient to understand "law language" which could be intrepreted wildly...

Thank you!
NN

"I'm sorry, could you please show the paragraph which states that the old regulation about this 5 years prerequisites for unlimited PR still valids in das neue Zuwanderungsgesetz? I think my German is not enough sufficient to understand "law language" which could be intrepreted wildly..."

That 5 years prerequisite is changed into 5 years + 60 pension fond Beiträge.

ZuwG in english is on this site.
Beside 84000€ is only one posibility to get NE. There are also others.

Az
"Does anyone have information if i can renew my WP on July 2006, or eventually get PR?"

WP without problem.
PR?. Hard to say.
You can pay addition to 60 Pension Fonds Beiträge but I think problem are 5 years aufenthalt which you do not have.
So I think in 2006 you get only WP and after another 1,5 years you get PR. But you could also get NE earlier if you fullfil conditions.

Hi Esta74,

it is written in § 9 or in the English draft section 9.

Download the English draft here:
http://www.trust7.com/living_in_germany/links/immigration

I did not find a difference to the text of the law in German, which you can download here:

http://www.bafl.de/template/index_migration.htm

Best regards
Detlef

Hello Everyone,

I just have a question regarding the changes of A-titel's. As far as i understand from next year A-Bewelligung will be erased and all will be given A-erlaubnis. But what happens to people who paid pension contributions with A-Bewelligung? Will it be then counted for the Nederlassundserlaubnis?? For instance, at the end of my 4th GC year, i have 60 months of pension paid out of which 12 months of contribution has come from A-bewelligung status...

Regards

"A-Bewelligung? Will it be then counted for the Nederlassundserlaubnis??"

Pensions will be calculated for sure.
But I am not sure if time will be calculated for 5 years limit.

hi Rajesh,

pensions paid during your student year will be considered.. I have got my unlimited workpermit based on this. I am not sure about the Niederlassungserlaubnis. I was told to wait till Aug 2005 for applying Permanent Residency. Logically if they want to convert A-Bewelligung to Erlaubnis, then it makes sense for them to consider our long stay (both Bewelligung + Erlaubnis) and issue the N Erlaubnis on 1st of Jan 2005.. Lets see..

Cheers,

Hi friends,

this is history :-)

It came up yesterday evening, because I had to edit an very old message.

I did not want to move it away, because I found it very interesting to read these old posts.

Maybe you think similar?

Have a nice day and

viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef ;-)