<<@deathinc>>

Hey Nitin
hey dont stick to one point, And dont talk like a politician coz they sucks also. first
bankbalance i mean how is ur status and in that everything comes of course money and job also.
ok if that bitch hurt u then i will not use this word.

<<You are not hurting me at all. You are in fact hurting Yourself by calling Indian girls as bitches when Your mother/sister/grand-mother/etc are too Indians >>

i dont know what u r doing but will ur wife marry u if u dont have any job or no money??????


thats my point may be u hav a good heart full of lov or ur good humanbeing but ask ur wife will
she marry u if u dont have any job or any money and dont lie to me..

<<May be not, but would You marry someone who is not been to school ? Unless You too havent been to school ;) My point is that there are certain basic expectations from everyone looking for their life partner and there is nothing wrong in that. Not just few Indian girls but any girl in this world would not be willing to marry someone who does not have a job (unless You are in blind love or some other hidden reason), which is obvious given that if that man cannot take care of himself (does not have a job) then how will he take care of her/family in future.

Another things which makes me wonder (has to do something with common-sense) is that why would U want to marry when U dont even have a job and still settling Your feets on the ground ? Is it because U r looking for a wife who works and could sponsor Your expenses ;) grow up yaar and stop living in a la la world.>>

Bythe way she(my wife) cant leave her job because she is bounded in a contract and if she leave befor she has to pay panelty and i am free to leave my job and i will join her in G.
u have a feelings that i marry her to come to G because ur feeling sucks like others who think
like that but the fact will remain the fact and that fact i know and i dont need to clear this
fact to U.

<<It seems that I have hit You at the wrong point. You are explaining it to me but still contesting that You do not have to clear this to me.>>

but i will like to say one thing to u that she purposed me to marry first.

<<Mind sharing what she liked in You soo much ? I am always fancied by these online dating sites and deciding to marry even if You have never met each other.

What is the force getting You both together ? If You do not mind sharing.>>

and i was denied three times thats why she came here.
And i dont need any recomendations from any d***head coz it sucks like ur thoughts and bytheway i got the way to slove my prob.

<<Now You are proving why girls always rejected You. You looose Your temper and start abusing. So it has nothing to do with Your bank balance but to do with Your personality. As I said before, its time for some self-introspection.>>

<<@Detlef: Do You allow abusing on the trust7.com ?>>

And remember if i want i can F*** as many indian girls as i can but i am not intrested in them
anymore and afterall im honest n this is the fact.

<<You do not have to prove Your manhood/value to us. You have already explained that looooods of girls rejected You.>>

and its better we dont get to personal and better dont stop me to express my thought on indian b***hes.
ps: pls remove ur pic coz u really looking like a d***head.

<<See now You are proving what kind of family/backround You come from. I accept I might not be the best looking guy in this world but at least I never got rejected by all the girls like You did ;)

Stop whinning/justifying like a kid and focus on being together with Your wife. Best of luck.


Btw, it would be nice knowing Your real name, where You come from in India and may be Your foto on this forum. Let me know if/when You come to Germany and may be we can meet for a beer.
>>

@krieger

Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing ;-)

Nitin, people don't go here to discos/bars to find wife/husband, they are places to have fun, that is. Don't do unfair comparations.

From my point of view, I don't find much different between your experience and a successful marriage through Partnersuche-Website.

Anyway, I'm happy that your AM worked fine, but it seems that definitely is not always the case.

Just wait when indian women get more economical/social/familiar independency...

Hi Nitin,,
you asked: <<@Detlef: Do You allow abusing on the trust7.com ?>>

The answer is no, of course. And I do not like the way 'deathinc' write. Not at all!

But he used *** and therefor I did not deleted his messages.

On the other hand, this is a good point to ask deathinc to try to get the standard of all the other participants of this discussion.

Your arguments will not get better if you always use dirty words. The opposite is the fact.

A nice weekend to all of you!
Detlef

Nitin, people don't go here to discos/bars to find wife/husband, they are places to have fun, that is. Don't do unfair comparations.

LOL, begging to be fair! why don't you do that first.


From my point of view, I don't find much different between your experience and a successful marriage through Partnersuche-Website.

The problem now in these countries is it so hard to find a partner who has real love and therefore they do not have another way except to come to the basics and some are so lazy that they just don't think of marriage at all. I know one German guy who told me now-a-days it is very diffucult to find girls just because most of them are interested in sex rather than long term relationship.

Anyway, I'm happy that your AM worked fine, but it seems that definitely is not always the case.

It is true in most cases. How do you know what is happening in India when you have not been there. Since we are in Germany we can see all these stuff through our naked eyes.

Just wait when indian women get more economical/social/familiar independency...

Go and visit Indian banks, IT offices or any private business in India then you will find out most of the employees are women and they are earning money along with their husband. Coming to private business, most of the people in India believe women management is better and it will not be that far if you see women managers in India as they are already present but in less numbers. You might be surprised how they handle kids, due to the strong relationship of grandparents and fmaily members the kids are taken care of when parents go to work. Nothing will change in India when it comes to arranged marriages even though the couples become self-dependant. India is doing its best to preserve not an outdated culture and don't get mislead by some Indian roges here who either had some personal problem or enjoying other culture.

After following this discussion for quite some time, here are my 5 cents.

I feel people have really made opinions based on the wrong facts. Foremost, let's differentiate that we are talking of three different ways -

Arranged Marriages - Some of the people at this forum have already put a lucid and comprehensive picture of it. When a guy and gal are arranged by their parents to meet and based on one or more meetings decide to marry and start living together.
Love Marriages - When a guy and gal meet somewhere (no matter where) and decide meeting often and after dating for some time realize that they have fallen in love and decide to marry and start living together.
Living Relations. - When a guy and gal meet somewhere (no matter where) and decide meeting often and after dating for some time realize that they MIGHT have fallen in love and start living together.

Now, according to me every way must has its own advantages and disadvantages because nothing is perfect in this world. Due to my lack of information about the last two ways, I can only present my view in favour of the first one - that too in context of Hindu tradition in India.

Parents see that their son is now at the age suitable for marriage, he is responsible enough to sustain the burden of a family and life, has a stable job to support himself and his dependents financially and is willing to getting married then and only then they decide to search a bride for him. Same is true for their daughters - she is responsible enough to sustain the burden of a family and life, she is interested being a home-maker for her own home then they decide to search a groom for her. Now the process begins and mind you, the process is aimed at ensuring from both side, a very easy induction into other family and reducing the risk of failure of marriage to a minimum. It is believed in AMs that a marriage is not between two individuals but a relation between two families.
First, they try to find the match within their caste because it is most likely that the way of living would be almost similar in the new home and the bride won't feel isolated.
Second, the education background of the two families should be similar, so that the openness to question the age-old traditions is similar in two families to avoid conflicts in their opinions regarding that.
Third and quite important, the economic status of two families must be similar so that way of life the bride is used to, is not changing after marriage. It is quite common that marriages fail if there is huge difference in the economic status and there is an ego in between from more well-off family.
Now, there comes the horoscopes. Most of the AMs are based on matching the horoscopes. You may find this very stupid, but rejecting something based on just ignorace is illogical. There is a science (I can safely say proven but I refrain from it) behind and it works. Even if it didn't and many people don't believe, you can strike this point off.
Then, after this all has been done and you have found a prospective match, there comes matching the individual traits - as hobbies, interests, expectations from the future spouse, viewpoints, etc etc. This usually happens with phone calls, family meetings etc.
Only after this all has happened and they you have decided that she/he is the Ms./Mr. perfect, do Arranged Marriage happens.
Now, even after this AM happens in presence of n number of people aka society who approves of the marriage and ensure that marriage succeeds.

Most of the people in AM atmosphere consider family's happiness and wishes (including spouse) ahead of their own and hence even less chance of failure. The success rate of AMs is evident of the sheer heavy scrutiny of the AM process, rectifying and working out each and every detail and enhancing it according to the development of the society.

So, IMHO, at least for some of the individuals (including me) who are brought up in such a society providing apt atmosphere for AM - this is most viable way. Of course, in the past, there have been overlookings/overrulings of some of the points from the process which is why there are exceptions and AM do fail (for me failure not only means divorce but also includes living forcibly with the spouse even if you don't want to.), but still the process can and must not be rejected or denounced on the basis of ignorance.

Regards
vktyagi

<<@krieger>>

@Nithin

" Of course there are incidents when parents force the boy/girl to get married, or do it for financial reasons, or bla bla "

That is one real bad point in AMs compared to LM

<<100% agreed. But there are equal number (or may be more) of bad points in LM. My message only here is to those people indiscriminately criticizing AM and showing a black/white picture between AM/LM. I hope those people now understand the reality.>>

" In my opinion, meeting someone via Your parents is muuuuuuuch better than meeting someone in disco/dating-website, simply because parents have double of the life experience than we have and can look at things much broadly than ourselves."

I don`t think finding a girl on your own is bad. In my opinion one has to take decisions on their own after a certain age. Dependency is not a good idea when it comes to marriage, about the number of kids, the timing of it etc.

<<You missed the whole point here. I never said that finding a girl on Your own is bad. And I never ever said that the marriage decision should be taken by the parents. I guess You overlooked my comment that it was me and my wife who made the decision to get married without ANY influence from our parents.>>

"Also because relationships which start with merely sex and the lust for each other do not last very long and thats why the divorce rate is soooo high here."

I too agree with that statement. But I don`t think all LMs are that way. When sex and lust is the only goal , usually people dont get married. They may opt for one night stand or
short term relationships. And sex is also an important reason why people gets married. Lust is another thing.

"There are a lot of LM happening in India. Loooads of them. But so has the divorce rate shot up."

IMHO, divorce rates are shooting up not because of LMs but because women are more educated nowadays and more financially independent.Usually in bad AMs women are at
the receiving end and they cant come out of it because of social as well as financial reasons. Btb, i tried to get some statistics on divorced LMs in India but i could not find any by googling. Could you please provide a link or was it just a speculation ?

<<I totally agree with You that in bad AMs women are at the receiving end. Thats why AMs should be done with Your will and not forced upon by parents.

I am totally against forced AMs and believe me that in most of the cases in urban India AMs are not forced. This happens mostly in rural India where uneducation is still very prevalant.>>

"Most of the people who have been criticizing AM, I believe never had any real experience with AM, but just making these comments out of information from here and there. How many of these people really have any experience with AM ? that they are soo against it. "

It is also a good idea to ask how many AM lers have experienced LM to criticise it.

<<Thats why I made the comment that I am not criticizing LM but just trying to make people stop criticizing AMs even when they do not have any experience with it. I am hopeful that they have received my message.>>

"Detlef and others wrote that the main factor behind marriage should be love. Thats not correct"

That is a very very interesting statement . Yes, i can see in AMs it is not possible.

"On the other side, AM in India start with an understanding and respect for each other. Obviously love finds its place very soon. But those marriages do not break up when love is on the low. They are more resilient."

Where there is love , there is understanding and respect.

<<Then why is the divorce rate soo high in West? It is so high that there is very little understanding, respect or the will to make it work.>>

Without these Love Marriages too will not happen. The reason for the resiliency of indian marriage is not purely because they are AM but also financial dependance, lack of education , social pressure and may be some others.

<<Another misundertanding. Most of the women in my family who have had AMs are highly educated (Not trying to boast but clearing Your misconception) and not just in my family and even in other families I know. On the other side, most the women here in Germany do not clear even high school, let alone going for higher education.

Social pressure, yes there is little social pressure but that in my opinion is very very good. Comparing to West where there is no social pressure and it is sooooo acceptable to dump Your husband and enjoy sex with other men. Again I am not saying everyone in West.>>


"I am soo happy that I was born in India and so out of this aspect of European culture."

I am sure most of the people are happy to be born in and proud of their own countries.

<<Correct, specially when Your culture teached You such basic things in life.>>

".... specially to those who are continously criticizing AM without having any experience with it."

Friend, you only had one experience of AM And dont forget there may be millions of others for whom AM didnt work out well.When one of will say , out of his experience that AM is bad , will you agree upon that ?

<<It MIGHT be true that there are millions of others for whom AM did not work but You cannot deny that the same way there are millions for whom LM did not work. It was a disaster. So again Your point that AM is black and LV is white is out in the air.>>

"But then Germany (Europe) became richer, women got more financially independent and that is why they do not think twice before getting a divorce."

Watch out , India is also on the path to become a developed country. The way to keep the AMs : dont get developed , dont give women financial independence and keep the 3500 year old cast system and not so old subcast system.

<<Correct that India is on the path of economical developent but that will not bring about radical changes in Indian culture. There are lots of Indians living in West with the same economical advantage as Europeans, but still the divorce rate within them is far lesser than the natives. Ever wondered why: Because they still have the Indian culture alive within their hearts. So if Indians living in West can do that, I am 100% confident Indians living in India will do far better. It does not have everything to do with economical independence but the culture which is roooted 1000's of years back.

The case system does not exist in today's urban India. Of course there are exceptions but again exceptions are everywhere in this world. So stop generalizing everything based on exceptions. Thats like an Asian saying that since people from xxxx country in Europe are racist, thats why the whole Europe is racist. You do not need me to tell You how stupid that is. >>

When i made that statement ,dont conclude that i am against indian culture or traditions. I am aware that India has a very long history compared to other socities, lots of philosphers were born there,it gave birth to many religions including Hiduism,Budhism,Sikhism etc, Islam religion was there in India just after the
time of prophet , Christianity entered India in AD 52 well before it was there in Europe etc. etc.

But no society will evolve into a healthier one , without self correction and self criticism. Some traditions evolved faster while others are slow to change, but the fact is that change is bound to happen with education ,self awareness and time.

<<100% agreed with You. Every society in this world (European, Indian, American etc etc) needs self correction and self criticism. But thats the point 'SELF' correction/criticism is needed and not from any foreigner who might have never visited India but is sooooooo upfront in criticizing India culture.

Giving You an example: Whenever I visit India, loads of people ask me about German attitudes towards foreigners and their first conception is that they are rxxxxt towards foriegners. But I (the one who has really had experience with Germans) clarify that Germans are just the opppostity and very nice people (at least based on my experience). So who gave those Indians the right to classify all Germans as rxxxxt when they have no real experience at all. Same when the Western Europeans view all Eastern Europeans as criminals, prostitutes etc etc. You do not need me to tell You that this is not in reality.>>

<<Lastly, my point is again and again only to educate those people who are continously criticizing Indian culture without really understanding it. I do not intend to malign any European culture for that sake but definitely stand against those who have the attitude of criticizing Indian culture without having any experience with it. I rest my case.>>

OkOk let dont fight now and last time i was writing in drunken state so sorry everyone for using slang words..
Hm so u got my point now indian(mostely) girl will marry for lov but there lov is for money and ur wife would not marry or her parents would not search u when u dont have any job or u r
not financial secure:-)

so the point is that she marry coz u have good job and bla bla bla.But dont worry almost every
indian girl thinks the same im not sayin that west it is not so but the girls(germans) which i
hav meet they first prefrence will be lov(for humanbeing), not the good job , good status or
money.Ok i havent meet the 1000 girls from germany and also not the 1000 girls from india but the girls whom i have talked till now from both countries,i found this opinion from them(germans) and opp opinion from indians.

perhaps here is always financial security prob thats why women here lov for money(in most cases).
And dont give the false arguments by using the school example or disable person.
and dont justify anything by putting me again and again in ur example

Hahaha dont worry about me dear if i have anything wrong then she will dump me first. so take care about ur relation.

Ok say what ever u want to say about my personality.But the thing is that what is in me why she had married to me. hm so atleast u will be thinking that there is something in me why more than one germans girls come to visit me all alone(i think in germany there are lot of germans as well as indians guys to marry):-)

and i think its better close this topic(coz u have also partly excepted my point)
I am happy they way i am.
There is no question of rejection and acceptance dear. the question is the what is the state of
mind of an indian girl and for them lov always comes second and that will remain fact. and I HATE THIS FACT.
I hav meet german girls who can even marry to a bagger for lov i was shocked to heard from them
but they said if there is lov then ya and i dont think german girls are so stupid.
ask this question to any girl in india then tell me the answer.
ya perhaps we can meet for a beer tell me where liv in Germany?
btw what u do in G?
be practical write what happen in ur practical life. dont write what u heard from books or from other things.
Hey Krieger if i tell u that secret then it will not remain the secret and let me enjoy my secret
:-)

i think when u(Nitin) see my pic then u will afraid to meet me in germany:-)
bis bald

And remember (nitin)this point Ur wife loves u from brain and my wife loves me from heart think deeply then u will understand my point.and lov from heart is better than lov from brain.

<<@deathinc>>

OkOk let dont fight now and last time i was writing in drunken state so sorry everyone for using slang words..

<<You are forgiven. Now we know another thing about You: You are a drunkard. Just kidding ;) >>

Hm so u got my point now indian(mostely) girl will marry for lov but there lov is for money and ur wife would not marry or her parents would not search u when u dont have any job or u r
not financial secure

<<Again, You are confusing basic expectations with the obsession for money. Any women in this world would expect her husband to be self-reliant and not dependent on his parents for basic needs. That has nothing to do with the love for money. How come it is taking You sooooo long to understand this fact of life ?>>

so the point is that she marry coz u have good job and bla bla bla.But dont worry almost every
indian girl thinks the same im not sayin that west it is not so but the girls(germans) which i
hav meet they first prefrence will be lov(for humanbeing), not the good job , good status or
money.

<<Ever wondered why ? Because love is soooooo hard to find here. There is no denying that West society is very materialistic. What would be interesting to know is how long will Your wife love You when You dont have a job ;) You might be shocked to find how quickly she MIGHT get rid of You when You stay unemployed for very long. Love is like a Ocean wave which goes up and down. Right now it is Up in Your case, just be scared of when it goes down and then it will get to the basics of life.>>

Ok i havent meet the 1000 girls from germany and also not the 1000 girls from india but the girls whom i have talked till now from both countries,i found this opinion from them(germans) and opp opinion from indians.

<<Sorry that You have been around the wrong type of girls in India.>>

perhaps here is always financial security prob thats why women here lov for money(in most cases).
And dont give the false arguments by using the school example or disable person.
and dont justify anything by putting me again and again in ur example

<<I can at best give my example. Thats what I am doing. So can You and so what You are doing.>>

Hahaha dont worry about me dear if i have anything wrong then she will dump me first. so take care about ur relation.

Ok say what ever u want to say about my personality.But the thing is that what is in me why she had married to me. hm so atleast u will be thinking that there is something in me why more than one germans girls come to visit me all alone(i think in germany there are lot of germans as well as indians guys to marry)

<<You mean there were other German girls who also came to India to get married to You ? ;)

Jokes apart, I am totally impressed by Your personality to attract German girls flying half of the world to meet You in India and that even all alone. Hats off >>

and i think its better close this topic(coz u have also partly excepted my point)

<<Thats a good way of quitting ;) when You are not able to convince others. If You look at the discussion trail then it looks more like You have accepted (and not excepted) my point ;) >>

I am happy they way i am.
There is no question of rejection and acceptance dear. the question is the what is the state of
mind of an indian girl and for them lov always comes second and that will remain fact. and I HATE THIS FACT.

<<Too bad for You because it is a reality in today's world that women expect basic security in a marriage.>>

I hav meet german girls who can even marry to a bagger for lov i was shocked to heard from them
but they said if there is lov then ya and i dont think german girls are so stupid.

<<Easier said than done. Show me one girl who would marry a beggar from a street in India ? And I would quit this whole discussion. >>

ask this question to any girl in india then tell me the answer.

<<Atleast Indian girls are honest and practical. Would You marry a beggar girl from a street in India ? You do not need to answer this one since it is obvious. Again, come out of the la la world.>>

ya perhaps we can meet for a beer tell me where liv in Germany?

<<Frankfurt, currently in Munich.>>

btw what u do in G?
<<IT Consultant. It sounds granduer than it is in reality >>

be practical write what happen in ur practical life. dont write what u heard from books or from other things.

<<That cannot be for me ? Because all the while I have written based on my practical experience. >>

Hey Krieger if i tell u that secret then it will not remain the secret and let me enjoy my secret


i think when u(Nitin) see my pic then u will afraid to meet me in germany

<<Hmm. Now I know the real reason why Indian girls rejected You. Because Your sight is nothing short of a horror/terror ;) Are You sure Your German wife looked at Your properly ? ;) Just kidding and best of luck with Your flee to Germany.>>

bis bald

And remember (nitin)this point Ur wife loves u from brain and my wife loves me from heart think deeply then u will understand my point.and lov from heart is better than lov from brain.

Buddy, Is there any instrument to measure that? If so, please let me know I would like to purchase one.

@deathinc,

Indian girls are more practical ... they know that a guy who cant find a job or doesn't have enough money can't be a responsible husband. With just luv in heart, you can never feed a family ... and the marriage wont last long ... that's because in India, unlike Germany, you don't have ALG.

I feel you should be really ashamed, because after coming here you would be living at the mercy of your wife and other taxpayers here. Its a pity on you.

i think when u(Nitin) see my pic then u will afraid to meet me in Germany

Just send me your photo ... I will frame it and put it on my balcony ... I want to scare away some birds ..

<<@Deathnic>>

And remember (nitin)this point Ur wife loves u from brain and my wife loves me from heart think deeply then u will understand my point.and lov from heart is better than lov from brain.

<<I think You are again drunk, because not even once did I say anything to prove that my wife only loves me from brain and not heart.

You have'nt even lived with Your wife and You know that she loves You from the core of her heart.

Take this as a wake up call and face reality.

In any case, best of luck with Your plans and may You have a wonderful married life.>>

Hey I got one interesting case to tell about one of my relative. I would personally like this solution. My cousin went through dating & love with a girl who came from a similar background (caste, financial status, luks etc..) and then finally decided to marry her and conveyed his message to his parents and then his parents and that girl's parents met on this ground and checked whether their horoscope fit each other and felt that on a particular date it should be suitable for them to marry and then they married and are a happy pair now. Finally it is an arranged marriage and a successful one. Horoscope is not necessarily imp. to all families but the marriage time is important.

@@deathinc

Does your wife loves you so much by her heart that she will be willing to quit Germany and live with you in India. Why are you trying your best to join her in Germany (even after being rejected 3 times) why cant she come to India and apply for the family visa from indian Gov. if there is no money between your relation?

Hahaha im not drunk.u see u hav a problem when u read something truth u get teased and try to
tease me.Ur wife married u beacuse she thought she is secure with u financially and u can support her so there is no lov factor at start(and this thinking she thought from her brain)it means she loves u from her brain.
on the other hand practically i gave her nothing except myself and doch she deicide to be with me
and if she loves me from her brain then she never marry to me.
what i am tryin to say that ur wife will not love u if u hav a situation like me because she
loves u from her brain.

<<Again, You are confusing basic expectations with the obsession for money. Any women in this world would expect her husband to be self-reliant and not dependent on his parents for basic needs. That has nothing to do with the love for money. How come it is taking You sooooo long to understand this fact of life ?>>

HaHa so u mean my wife is an angel?? and all the other german girls i meet are so stupid ???

<<Would You marry a beggar girl from a street in India ?>>
U know u always giv sensless justification of what u said i am taking about girls and u r talking again with my example

<<You mean there were other German girls who also came to India to get married to You ?>>
the answer is yes but i will not like to giv u more details.

<<Thats a good way of quitting when You are not able to convince others. If You look at the
discussion trail then it looks more like You have accepted (and not excepted) my point >>

i know my capbalities of convencing others so i dont need to prove it dear & im not a quiter i just want that we should not fight on sensless topic because i think on the both side 2 hard headed persons are sitting and both sticks to there thoughts :-)

<<Easier said than done. Show me one girl who would marry a beggar from a street in India ? And I would quit this whole discussion. >>

should i gave the adress of that girl in germany ??? hey thats i am not going to do.
but practically(but its not possible) if that happen then she will do that exactly and she was with me 5 months ago and believe me she was very much practical, honest,and always thinks from her heart.

<<Atleast Indian girls are honest and practical>>
So u mean to say germans are dishonest and unpractical.then u r living in a imaginativ world open ur eyes and go out from ur small cage.

<<Because all the while I have written based on my practical experience. >>
but i still hav a feeling that u talk not all ur practical experiance and if this is ur practical experiance then i would say i hav much more ex than u btw whats ur age??

hey babloo
i think when u read this u will able to understand what im tryin to say(lov from heart, lov from brain).

hey imranahmadkhan
i hav clarify these thing earlier read my previous messages.
and by the way she dont like to be in G so perhaps later after her contract expire we will decide where we can liv.
Hb
I will not be ashamed to be in germany coz i know what i am capable of doing so dont worry about me.
<<Just send me your photo ... I will frame it and put it on my balcony ... I want to scare away some birds ..>>
but in this way u will attract some others
also:-)
ok i will send u the foto but u send me first.My email address is with same id on rediffmail.com

Hi all,

Sorry to join in late. Today i logged in after a long and found this wonderful thread (I missed all the action). It is really interesting in the beginning. later on all abuses, accusations, personal attacks made loose its taste. After a while Nitin made a wonderful entry.

Someone in this thread said self correction or improvement is required. That is what exactly has happened to REAL indian culture ( veneer modernization and lack of real knowledge of culture has made its adverse effect). Through time, you may find the changes in Indian culture. for marriage system, I would like to add few points. Indian culture is still alive and strong, as it has always respected modality of time. Further more I have seen real bad remarks about india from people here who having no good background and knowledge of system ( and those who have it, never took effort to understand it ). India as bad place to live, about indian gals. about culture. I've also found Germans asking silly questions about India and indian culture. Which shows that western world really don't know about India and have very very wrong image about it. In this aspect I agree with babloo that Indians need to or should feel moral responsibilty to clear the misunderstandings. rather than making some stupid remarks about it.

Marriage system in India explains different types of marriages which are possible in society. (I'm not advocating any of it). Prajapati vivah ( don't ask me translation of it) this is when there is consent of family, two subject and they marry with some rituals established at that time and culture. Gandharwa vivah which is by trusting each other, with or without family consent and without rituals (mostly noone except subjects witnessing it). Rakshas vivah which is forced, may be with consent or without consent of family, could be mariage running away from home, by power of money or physical power. In all Prajapati is considered higher, then gandharwa and then rakshas. Now in all of this there is no explicit Love or arrange marriage term. But indirectly you find it or even mixture of both in different types.

@Ntin and Deathinc :
german gals may not look at your job status ( which i doubt, but consider from your case assuming what you say is true). there is strong reason. Most germans don't know poverty. social security
may never have let their lives been miserble. when one and their family are hungry and may be shiverring in cold. they would forget all love. and that time german gal would definitely ask whether you have job, not only bank balance but job security also.

@samdcha

Your name suggests that You are a girl, in which case Detlef's wish has come true to have a girl contribute to this discussion. And that even an Indian girl.

german gals may not look at your job status ( which i doubt, but consider from your case assuming what you say is true). there is strong reason. Most germans don't know poverty. social security
may never have let their lives been miserble. when one and their family are hungry and may be shiverring in cold. they would forget all love. and that time german gal would definitely ask whether you have job, not only bank balance but job security also.

I totally agree with You. I dont intend to criticize German girls but based on my understanding of the German society, I believe that German girls are much moooore materialistic than Indian girls. So You really have to be an exceptional German girl to want to get married to someone who does not even have a job.

Again, I do not see anything wrong in having basic expectation that the husband is economically STABLE (if not stinkingly rich) and is self-reliant. Not dependent on his parents to provide for the mere basics of life.

Even with the social setup here in Germany (with unemployment money, which is BTW shrinking with every government/season) how long can one expect the wife to not complain about her husband's unemployment status.

In the long run it will come down to the basics of life, irrespective of how much love You had in the beginning or how many butterflies You felt in Your stomach whenever You saw Your partner blushing with love. Merely basing Your marriage on love does not feed Your stomach or provide for basics of life.

@Deathinc: Refer to my comments in <NITIN></NITIN> below.

Hahaha im not drunk.u see u hav a problem when u read something truth u get teased and try to
tease me.
<NITIN> I am only trying to help You wake up and do not get any pleasure teasing You. After all You have already been thru sooo much of shit in life, I just cant do it any more to You </NITIN>

Ur wife married u beacuse she thought she is secure with u financially and u can support her so there is no lov factor at start(and this thinking she thought from her brain)it means she loves u from her brain.
<NITIN> very clearly stated that in my initial posts that AM starts with respect and understanding for each other. Obviously loves finds its way eventually. You have to face the facts of life that alone love cannot feed Your stomach. I am sure You already know this but just not able to accept it because of Your failures. But thats ok since we all have failures but winner is someone who learns from failures and not repeat it</NITIN>

on the other hand practically i gave her nothing except myself and doch she deicide to be with me
and if she loves me from her brain then she never marry to me.
what i am tryin to say that ur wife will not love u if u hav a situation like me because she
loves u from her brain.
<NITIN> Sorry but actually she has decided not to be with You and that is why she is right now in Germany and not with You in India.

She could have paid some small penatly at her job and be with You in India if she was sooooooo much head over heals for You. The choice to save that penalty money has superceeded You.

And You are still trying to convince everyone that the only driving force between You and her is pure un-adulterated love ;)

On the contrary You are willing to leave Your country, Your family to be with her, but thats Your choice.</NITIN>


<<Again, You are confusing basic expectations with the obsession for money. Any women in this world would expect her husband to be self-reliant and not dependent on his parents for basic needs. That has nothing to do with the love for money. How come it is taking You sooooo long to understand this fact of life ?>>

HaHa so u mean my wife is an angel?? and all the other german girls i meet are so stupid ???

<NITIN>Look at my comments above and You will understand what I mean </NITIN>

<<Would You marry a beggar girl from a street in India ?>>
U know u always giv sensless justification of what u said i am taking about girls and u r talking again with my example

<NITIN>You are missing the point that everyone who enters into the relationship of marriage enters with some expectations. May it be You as a boy or Your wife as a girl.</NITIN>

<<You mean there were other German girls who also came to India to get married to You ?>>
the answer is yes but i will not like to giv u more details.

<<Thats a good way of quitting when You are not able to convince others. If You look at the
discussion trail then it looks more like You have accepted (and not excepted) my point >>

i know my capbalities of convencing others so i dont need to prove it dear & im not a quiter i just want that we should not fight on sensless topic because i think on the both side 2 hard headed persons are sitting and both sticks to there thoughts

<NITIN>It is not a senseless topic. Thats why You, me and so many others have spent sooo much time trying to explain our point of view. Now dont tell me that You are just passing Your time here ;) after all You are supposedly working for Reliance. No wonder why Reliance is doing bad day by day.</NITIN>


<<Easier said than done. Show me one girl who would marry a beggar from a street in India ? And I would quit this whole discussion. >>

should i gave the adress of that girl in germany ??? hey thats i am not going to do.
but practically(but its not possible) if that happen then she will do that exactly and she was with me 5 months ago and believe me she was very much practical, honest,and always thinks from her heart.

<NITIN>Again easier said than done. You dont need to give me any address. Just prove that there is 1 single girl in Germany (unless she is hopeless and too has been rejected by all the boys she has met) who has married a beggar from India. As I said before, I would quit sharing my thoughts in this discussion and would divorce and go for a perfect LM like Yours </NITIN>

<<Atleast Indian girls are honest and practical>>
So u mean to say germans are dishonest and unpractical.then u r living in a imaginativ world open ur eyes and go out from ur small cage.

<NITIN>All I said is that Indian girls are practical and honest. Its up to You to draw other conclusions/imaginations from my comments.</NITIN>

<<Because all the while I have written based on my practical experience. >>
but i still hav a feeling that u talk not all ur practical experiance and if this is ur practical experiance then i would say i hav much more ex than u btw whats ur age??

<NITIN>What makes You write that You have much more experience than I have ? Is it because You were rejected by sooo many girls and have had bad experience with them ?

Ever heard this phrase 'Whats in the age'? ;)</NITIN>


<NITIN>You can put ample number of arguments but the fact remains that Your wife who could have easily opted to quit her job, pay some penalty and be with her cutie pie (i.e. You) did not do that.

And now You are left in India, tried and rejected (it must be aweful, first to face rejections from Indian girls and now from German Embassy) thrice for German visa and still trying to prove that Your wife only married You for love and does not care whether You have a job, when in reality she opted to save some penalty fees in comparison to being with You. </NITIN>

<NITIN>Honest Suggestion: Try getting help from some immigration lawyers like VPMK (http://www.vpmk.de/english/vpmk_home.html) who could help You with Your dreams in coming to Germany. They are trust7.com partners and have received very good feedback from other trust7.com fellows.</NITIN>

Many AM advocates were telling that the high divorce rate here is not due to the fact that it is LM. It is more because of a free, independent society here , people have the choice to choose what they want , no social stigma regarding divorce, no social pressure and no financial problems. Even Gerhard Schröders wife is his fourth and 19 years junior to him. No i am not telling whether it is right or wrong , but explaining the social setup.


And why do you think the divorce rate is low in AMs ..? Is it purely because they are AMs ? If not what is the reason...? Because it started with respect and understanding for each
other ? No my friends. Even in LMs these two factors are there in the beginning like AMs plus another important factor called love.(And you can see love is lacking in AMs in the initial stage).

The reason is because of other factors like, social pressure, social stigma, financial,little or no chances in getting remarried, the family doent like the divorce status etc. or you can call it tradition. After all tradition is something that is being followed for centuries whether it is right or wrong.

And thinking that only in AM once love is gone or low, understanding and respect will prevail is a misconception. How is it possible only in case of AMs and not in LMs . After all both are marriages.And these factors were present in both marriages.

Remember , our initial discussion was basically about AMs and LMs . And the supporters of AMs were mainly telling about the high divorce rate in LMs or in western world.And there were always this talk of divorce rate in Indian AM is low and comparing it with divorce rate in western LMs. But people are not taking the social conditions of both sides into consideration. The social setup is totally different. It is the social setup which makes AMs tick in India. It is not because they are just AMs .


And i hope one thing every one will agree upon : There is no chance of forced marriage in LM , but
there is a chance of forced marriage in AM ( And as many people agreed here, it may be still happening in AMs , at least in rural India) . And it is a pity that some members talk with disdain about the poor. After all they are also citizens of the same country and they are the majority. May be, for them too ,the forced AMs are a tradition.


It is also interesting to note that some of the previous posts favouring AM were trying to depict a picture of LM- girls as someone who lurches around streets with lusty eyes seeking for sex from any tom dick and harry.Gives an impression that all these girls are of loose moral.Now do you think that it is correct
having lived here ? It is a fact that there are people with high and low morals in all socities. It is not just here. It is also the case in India, Western world , Middle East , Far East or where ever it is. Example: Rapes happening in Delhi in recent times are attracting a lot of media attention. I am also aware that in US too rape rate is high.



@Nithin

"<<100% agreed with You. Every society in this world (European, Indian, American etc etc) needs self correction and self criticism. But thats the point 'SELF' correction/criticism is needed and not from any foreigner who might have never visited India but is sooooooo upfront in criticizing India culture."


Not able to stand criticism from others and beleiving in only self crititcism is not a healthy sign , whether it is in the case of a person or of any society. It is a sign of Egotism. There are little or no chances of improvement / evolution when criticism is not tolerated. The reason is most people / society thinks that whatever they do is correct and hence no self criticism .



@samdcha


"I agree with babloo that Indians need to or should feel moral responsibilty to clear the
misunderstandings. rather than making some stupid remarks about it."

It is a good thing on some ones part to clear the misundersatndings about ones country
But it should not be done with only one sided information and hiding some facts in order to draw a rosy picutre.

In this age of Internet , information is not hard to get, if you want information about any country,
google for the top newspapers and search with in those news papers for information. It will give an
accurate picture rather than just googling, provided media in independent in that country. It is not just info from here and there, as many were concerned about here but good reports by well qualified journalists and opinion of real indian people .

And i also had lots of healthy discussions on different topics with many indian friends. And i
emphasise they were healthy, mature discussions and none of them ended up in name calling , what some kids or unmature people do, when confronted with unpleasant facts.


And many were telling the problems in AMs were mainly in rural India. I am not trying to generalise things here , but taking a look at these links may be shocking for the indians too.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2004112800380300.htm&date=2004/11/28/&prd=mag&

and this too

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/08spec.htm

I am also of the opinion that this is not the common indian way , but it too happens in AMs. Yes bad things also happen in all parts of world and in all kinds of marriages. But the links were provided just because people were insisting that urban and educated indian AMs are almost problemless.

And please dont write to these sites that they should be removed from the site because it shows
indian tradition in badlight And i beleive , accepting and confronting the problems but not suppressing it or ignoring it will help in solving it.


I think i have made my opinion and there is very little or no more things i have to say on this topic. Dont blame me of scooting .It is also possible to go on arguing on this for "tens of years" and then check out the real situation in India, whether AMs are disappearing. just joking.

Yes i agree that lots of AMs ( or in your words majority of it ) works out well. I also agree that it is a part of your tradition and respect it. Whether i can agree with that or not is another matter.And i am also aware that no ones agreement is needed in these matters. Made my points because i found the topic interesting.

Now I realize the old saying NOBODY WINS AN ARGUMENT. (No, i am not refering our valuable member here in this forum)

And i wish the AM lers a happy, lovesome and prosperous married AM life.

Morgen
So lets back to point (nitin) and dont make the things unintrested for others.
So first of all Nitin what u hav said about me dear if that is right then my wife will not marry me. so again i have proved that u r wrong and not dont justify it.
what ever u say about me perhaps in ur mind i am having a bad picture but atleast im happy that
there are lot of other people even(living 6000km)away from me,im having a good picture in there mind.
May be i hav faced more faliurs in my life than u but gleichzeitig i am also learned more that u
from my life.I feel very sad that u r not a practical person and just give unlogical justification to prove ur self right.
if u r a practical person then u will never told that she must pay the panelty and join me in
india or Sorry but actually she has decided not to be with You and that is why she is right now
in Germany and not with You in India.
A practical person will never talk like that.These things shows how immature u r till now in practical life.I feel i am arguing with a kid who just dont want to accept anything he dont like.
Also i never told u that u r a dumba*s and search ur partner with the help of ur parents.dont write me the justification on this thing.
And also my wife is not that stupid that she marry to a guy who is a falier in his life and and who has nothin to giv.
So from now on it will be better if u need to prove ur point(when u r writing to me) then use a logical justification.
Instead of blaming me and pin out my faults talk what u have faced in reality.
<< TO EVERYONE>>
So my point is that.
befor that i will concentrate on the present not in future.
and also we r not the person who decide what a german girl will do in future when love is gone.

1 so when u r talkin about Am and LM in india(i would like to talk about india coz i am still
here not like nitin who judges whole india while sitting in front of his PC:-))
First of all people say it in a different way i will say it in my way.
AM is truley based on thinking of brain not of heart.
Also mostely LM in india is truley based on brain not on heart.
coz here girl think first of the status and profile then lov.
and honestly my sisters are one of them who thinks like that.So what we see here that Love(for humanbeing) is gone and lov for other things comes first.Some people(u can say its a security or understanding).

2 AM what nitin has done(im not criticising him for that like he do always)
We can see in AM there is no lov at the start(atleast in LM u can hav some exceptions) girl and their parents go first for money, status , job and we see now that this marriage is not based on lov it is based upon other things.

<<So krieger And why do you think the divorce rate is low in AMs ..? >>
i will give a simple answer(instead of writing a long bouring pahragraph) that is AM is based upon brains and brain in more smart than heart.
But afterall heart is more beautiful than brain.
and i like when there is involvement of heart coz i like beautiful things:-)

And honestly there are more divorce in LM but i like to say again in my way that when u think always from ur heart then ofcourse u r having prob coz smarter(brain) are successful than beautiful(heart):-)
But still i am happy that im having a marriage which is beautiful:-)
not smart marriage like nitin:-)
but best of luck to ur(nitin) future plans also:-)