They changed the permit on my passport. It now reads "Beschaeftigung erlaubt": therefore no profession or company specific.

Sun

Nice for you..
But if you dont describe your exact situation, then this information is useless(at least for me)

When I say "your exact situation", I mean (Years worked, stayed in Germany, salary conditions, were you GC before, what did you do to change it? in which german state did you apply for it? which law paragraph was your moving point etc etc, any tiny detail that can be helpful for the person who can take your case as an example to his case) Sorry but I can not see the point of sharing this information without giving the details of it.

The ground for the change was that I was a GC and the interim provision on the new law says that GCs have unlimited permit. The number of years that I worked and the salary level had nothing to do with it. I was at ABH for my wifes WP; without asking the beamter said I could get the "Beschaeftigung erlaubt", I said, "OK". I am in Hamburg.

What the ABH officer doing in your case is not correct. He is giving you more than what the law offers, but it should be ok, if none of the parties complain about it.
It looks like Beamters also make mistake for the profit of the GCs. I wish I would be a person whose case is handled by the beamter who handled your case in Hamburg.

Regards,

Lacrima

PS: Correct statement on your residence permit should be "Beschäftigung erlaubt nur als IT Fachkraft" and they should also remove "Erlischt bei Beendigung der Tätigket". Just saying "Beschäftigung erlaubt" is too strong. You should be able to get this only after 5 years with Niederlassungserlaubnis. Would they then accept it, if you find a job as a waiter in a restaurant when you have this clause in your passport? (just to give an example)

Hi Sun,

Which ABH in Hamburg did u visit ?? Can u pls write to me maybe on amolp76 at yahoo dot com ???

As said in the other post I have an appointment on 8th of Feb with Beamter in Hamburg. I also stay in Hamburg Barmbek !!!

Regards,

"What the ABH officer doing in your case is not correct. He is giving you more than what the law offers, but it should be ok, if none of the parties complain about it.
It looks like Beamters also make mistake for the profit of the GCs. I wish I would be a person whose case is handled by the beamter who handled your case in Hamburg.

Regards,

Lacrima

PS: Correct statement on your residence permit should be "Beschäftigung erlaubt nur als IT Fachkraft" and they should also remove "Erlischt bei Beendigung der Tätigket". Just saying "Beschäftigung erlaubt" is too strong. You should be able to get this only after 5 years with Niederlassungserlaubnis. Would they then accept it, if you find a job as a waiter in a restaurant when you have this clause in your passport? (just to give an example)"


Lacrima I think what you wrote is wrong. I mean this in a respectful way, but I think the officer did what is correct and did what the new law says and this was not a mistake. If you read the below, I think what was done was correct. My interpretation of the law says that the persons that had the work permission under IT-Fachkräfte, which is the Green Carders, have consent to unlimted work permission. It only states unlimited work permission and NOT unlimited work permission in IT. This has nothing to do with Niederlassungserlaubnis and 5 years, which really is not so important because under the new law and the below paragraphs, if your where a Green Carder before 1.1.2005, which everyone was, you get unlimited work permission and unlimited residence. This part of the law only applies if you where a Green Carder. You are entitled to this and should get it. This is a great advantage and oppertunity for GC's. Do not bother with what the different ABH say. It is written in the law and you can see from the first post, that the law is being correctly applied in some places. You just need to point this out. And yes, the manner in which the law is written, if you were a GC, you now get unlimited work permit with new ZG and could work in any profession. But, only GC'S can get this. Very Special!!!!!

Later
Cool Dude!

42.1.3.3.1
Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.

§ 46 Übergangsregelungen
(2) Die einer IT-Fachkraft nach § 6 Abs. 2 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch qualifizierte Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie erteilte befristete Arbeitserlaubnis gilt als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung fort.

§ 6 Beantragungszeitraum und Geltungsdauer der Arbeitserlaubnis

(2) Die Arbeitserlaubnis wird bei der Erteilung auf die Dauer der Beschäftigung, längstens auf fünf Jahre befristet. Bei mehreren aufeinander folgenden Beschäftigungen dürfen die Arbeitserlaubnisse bis zu einer Gesamtgeltungsdauer von fünf Jahren erteilt werden.

@Coole Dude

Hi Coole Dude

From which law is the following paragraph? I was looking in the Zuwanderungsgesetzt but I cannot find it.
42.1.3.3.1
Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.

The rest is clear, it waa from the BeschV $46.2 and ItArgV §6.2

Greatings,
vbakokr

vbakokr,

It is in the "Umsetzung des Zuwanderungsgesetzes" from 22.12.2004.

Later,
Cool Dude

http://www.fluechtlingsinfo-berlin.de/fr/gesetzgebung/BMI_Hinweise_AufenthG_221204.pdf

Coole Dude & DvD
Thank you for the fast answers.
Just for info, I am in region Stuttgart

Greatings,
vbakokr

@Coole Dude

You can create an illusion for yourself with your own law interpretations and be happy in your world thinking that your interpretation is correct.

But there are facts that you have to face and there are common practices done by ABHs. Your interpretation is not the common practice at all and we dont have enough successful examples in front of us which can prove that your way of interpretation is correct.

Fazit: You are free to claim that you are right but I need facts and not your interpretation of the law, in order to be persuaded.
(I am saying this also in a respectful way.)

Regards,

Lacrima

Lacrima,

Which 'facts' you are talking about ? We clearly see the Beamters do what they want. That case was not the first and will not be the last. This has been experienced by me by others and so on.

Go on, continue to believe your 'facts'.

@Lacrima

"You can create an illusion for yourself with your own law interpretations and be happy in your world thinking that your interpretation is correct."

This really is not my interpretation nor is it an illusion. I believe that it is written clearly in the law!!!!!

What is your interpretation of this???????
Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.

"Fazit: You are free to claim that you are right but I need facts and not your interpretation of the law, in order to be persuaded."

You want facts. You have them!!! The fact is that a GC got this in Hamburg. You just do not want to believe the facts and you say this is a mistake by the ABH. I look at this as a fact and not as a mistake and this action in Hamburg is consist with what is written in the law. There is you fact.

Since you are considered a profi in this forum, please tell me what you think that this means????

I am interested to know what you think?

Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.


Later
Cool Dude

Ok cool dude,

I am not a lawyer so my interpretation may be also wrong. I just follow several forums and discussions/articles regarding this immigration law. This is kind of my personal hobby..

Regarding the paragraph you mention. If you read it alone without considering the regulations coming from other paragraphs. You may reach the conclusion that you have reached BUT there are also other paragraphs to consider and you need to take care for what/how the original work-permit was issued. This is also important.

A GC's work-permit's standing point is § 27 Abs. 1 BeschV after the new law, so let's read what is written there:


§ 27 lT-Fachkräfte und akademische Berufe
Die Zustimmung zu einem Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung kann erteilt werden

1- Fachkräften, die eine Hochschul- oder Fachhochschulausbildung oder eine vergleichbare Qualifikation mit Schwerpunkt auf dem Gebiet der lnformations- und Kommunikationstechnologie besitzen,


and let's see what is written for the detailed explanation of this paragraph:


Die als Green Card bekannte Regelung wird als Zulassung zu qualifizierten Beschäftigungen im IT-Bereich fortgeführt. Die sonstigen Elemente der IT-ArGV werden überflüssig, weil das Zuwanderungsgesetz nicht mehr an die individuellen Fähigkeiten der Personen anknüpft, sondern an die vorgesehene qualifizierte oder hoch qualifizierte Beschäftigung, die auch der mindestens tarifgerechten Einstufung der vorgesehenen Vergütung der zu beschäftigenden Person zu entsprechen hat. Es kann daher auch auf die Zulassungsvoraussetzung einer Zahlung eines bestimmten Mindestgehaltes verzichtet werden, weil der Arbeitgeber in Verfahren nach § 39 Abs. 2 Satz 3 AufenthG in Verbindung mit Abs. 2 Satz 1 letzter Satzteil u. a. verpflichtet ist, ein einem deutschen Arbeitnehmer vergleichbares Gehalt zu zahlen.

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschvinfos.html#27


I dont know whether this was enough to convince you. After reading these parapgraphs, it is hard to believe that § 46 Abs. 2 has an effect of unlimited work-permit for every branch. I personally dont think so..

Regards,

Lacrima

Sorry I had to interven.

I am GC but not IT. Yes it was legally possible!

Imagine my new visa being limited to the IT field only. Not mentioning the Company name is totally different.

@sun

Would you pls ask the ABH that you have found a job at a Döner-Shop as a Döner-cutter and you want to continue your career at the Döner-Shop ? and then please provide me the result whether they have accepted it or not. (with your "Beschäftigung erlaubt" on your residence permit.) If they accept it, then we have some facts..

Did you read my post at all ? I have already told that your case seems to be an unique case in which I personally think that ABH officer made a mistake.

Regards,

Lacrima

Hi All,

After reading all the posts above, I think it is very well possible that the ABH has also got the same impression from this law just as our friends
coool dude and sun and maybe me as well.
Lacrima might be right in one aspect saying that there are also other regulations which are (or might be) pointing the same case and affecting in a differen manner. I am also living in Hamburg, and can just apply for to get my Visa changed according to the new laws next week. We can then make a concrete statement about this topic. I will inform you here after my visit to ABH. I am a Gc working and living here since sep 2001.
Less than 4 years here. If it works by me, it will probably work for all others as well.

Sun could you please provide me some details about your application, what was your reason of applying for a visa change, How many years have you already worked and if you earn more than 84K.

Cheers
FEe

@fersoz

It would be really nice, if you could give us some feedback with details after your visit to ABH and thanks for offering that.

BUT, from your nick, I am guessing that you are a Turkish Citizen(like me), so that your case may not be a good example for everybody.(Because of the special regulations for Turkish citizens)

Thanks for your info..

Regards,

Lacrima

yep Lacrima your guess about my citizenship is right.
They will probably inform me about any special regulations applying to turkish passport holders if it applies to my case. But as far as I know these privileging regulations make sense for GCs only after 4 years.

Anyway I will ask them also if it has had any affect on my application at the end? negative or positive :-)

All the best,
FEe

So...
Unfortenately my contry althow is in Europ will never be in EU.But who knows...
SO...
I call ABH this morning and ask them what will hapened with me when my GC visum ended at 10.2005 and I make 5 years in DE.
The answer from ABH was:
"I do not know, I do not see any chanche for NE!But I do not know.
You have a chanche if you are professor or scient to get NE according new law, but I donot now that laso."
Obviosly 'my man' at ABH Osterode will make me very, very big problems and I asume will put me at the end of my nerves.
I made an appointmen (beging him) and told him that I will giv him all Law paragraps and other things ...and he can see himself, that I have right for NE after 5 years.
My termin is on 24.02.2005...
What will happened..I will inform.

There are some magic words that cause Beamten do their job properly:

Rechtsanwalt
Klage
Gericht
Schadenersatz

and then maybe on the end, there could be even

Beforderungssperre

:-)

max cedo wants to say this:
take Detlef lawyer

"BeschV:
Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen
Zu Absatz 2:
Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis
aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch - die dauernde
Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet."

cool dude
as you can see lacrima was right.
that thing from AufenthG VwV says that § 46.2 BeschV should be considered. Here is explanation of § 46.2.
Imoprtant is:
"wie für andere >>>>qualifizierte<<<< Beschäftigungen auch"

I think >>>>qualifizierte<<<< is another word for IT, but I still hope to get completely unbinded visa becuse of mistake from some Beamter.

On the other side it is really imposible that he will make mistake and issue unlimited visa (NE)before 5 years.

That´s right. Take VPMK and share your experience with us :-). Actually I cannot remember any feedback about VPMK services, this would also increase chances for them to get more jobs, from me for example :-). With ca. 700 Euro they are certainly not cheap, but if one has to give let`s say 1/3 of salary and get stuff with ABH regulated in best possible way, and absolute hassle-free, then 700 Euro is acceptable. Compare this with financial loss that you might have if you for example do not extend your visa.

NE costs 700€ at VPMK.
Geting new ArbE and AufE which is not NE should be a lot cheaper.

I just wanted to share my experience at Auslaenderamt and request some idea for further action.
I am on GC here since 2001 , so completed 4 years living near Wolfsburg.
AFter reading several messages here, I wanted to try my luck and went to Auslaenderamt.

I went to a lady first and explained about Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV.
Of course this lady does not know about all of this and went through several folders , finally found this document,but did not understand what it means and guided me to her BOss (very nice, isn't it ?). Again the same story with Boss, i had to first explaing him about this $46 stuff and he has gone thorugh this document and called Arbeitsamt and talked with someone for about 10 minutes. Finally he told me that I can not get a NE or unbefristet AE as I have neither paid 60 months RV beitrag nor earn more than 8000 euros a month.

I read on this site about 4 years of GC is enough to get a AE. Can someone thorugh some light on this.

Thanks a lot in advance

Kiku

"Finally he told me that I can not get a NE or unbefristet AE as I have neither paid 60 months RV beitrag nor earn more than 8000 euros a month."

lacrima

You want to see a mistake, well since the guy asking was a Green Card from above, the above info. is a mistake. Not what was done in Hamburg and the "Beschaeftigung erlaubt". That was a beamter who read and understands how the law should be applied.

Also, I think if you have "Beschaeftigung erlaubt" in your passport, you can work at Döner shop. If you have this, do you need to even speak to the AA. I do not think so............

DVD

If you think that the below applies and it must be in IT, this I do not care about. This big point is that if the IT part applies, then the entire 46 2 applies and it is clear that the work permission is also to be UNLIMITED. I am not making up a wish, only reading what is written. If you say Unlimited is wrong, then what does the below mean????????????

Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen
Zu Absatz 2:
Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis
aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch - die dauernde
Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet."


Later,
Cool Dude!

@Cool Dude

I am sorry. I will not continue this discussion with you.
I explained you my standing point and the reasons. I have nothing to add.

Regards,

Lacrima

Lacrama, I just saw your last post.... You only use words and you have nothing to back them up. That is why you quit the talks here and have nothing more to say. This is also why you will always be a follower and continue to desperately attempt to get facts and info. from others rather than being a leader and innovator yourself!!!! Also, you say I am wrong and read the law wrong, then what do the words say? You only say what the words do not say, but you never say what the words and law says!

Well, you still can read this and you do not need to reply, because you have nothing good to say anyway! You just say the same old, "I want facts".......bla bla bla....

Lacrama and DVD

Below is a note from anothr thread and is something from passport. If you look you see that it refers to §27. So we go to 42.1.3.3 and 42.1.3.3.1 to see how §27 should be applied. Here we see that for IT-Fachkräfte before 1.1.2005 can get unlimited work permit and refers to §46,2 which states that unlimited residence is given. So, where is the problem? And do not say beamter!!! This law is written and not just in the air..............


Re: Where are binded RP issued and where nonbinded
i support dvd's idea.

As I already told you that my visum was like this:
"Beschaftigung bei Firma .... als IT & SW gemass §18 AufthG & §27 BeschV gestattet".

Mine was issued in Stuttgart region.

regards,

mk

§ 27 lT-Fachkräfte und akademische Berufe
Die Zustimmung zu einem Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung kann erteilt werden

Fachkräften, die eine Hochschul- oder Fachhochschulausbildung oder eine vergleichbare Qualifikation mit Schwerpunkt auf dem Gebiet der lnformations- und Kommunikationstechnologie besitzen,
Fachkräften, die eine Hochschul- oder Fachhochschulausbildurig oder eine vergleichbare Qualifikation besitzen, wenn an ihrer Beschäftigung wegen ihrer fachlichen Kenntnisse ein öffentliches Interesse besteht, oder
Hochschulabsolventen nach § 16 des Aufenthaltsgesetzes für einen angemessenen Arbeitsplatz.

42.1.3.3 Zu § 27 BeschV – IT-Fachkräfte und akademische Berufe
Die in § 27 BeschV geregelten Sachverhalte ermöglichen die Dauerbeschäftigung und Aufenthaltsverfestigung.

42.1.3.3.1 Die als Green Card bekannte Regelung wird in Nummer 1 als Zulassung zu qualifizierten
Beschäftigungen im IT-Bereich fortgeführt. Voraussetzung ist eine Hochschul- oder Fachhochschulausbildung
oder eine vergleichbare Qualifikation mit dem Schwerpunkt auf dem
Gebiet der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie. Die weiteren Elemente der bisherigen
Regelungen für diesen Personenkreis, die im Wesentlichen ein schnelles Verfahren
zur Behebung des Mangels an Fachkräften in diesem Bereich sicherstellen sollten, sind ent
fallen. Für IT-Fachkräfte, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 eine Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten haben
ist die Übergangsregelung des § 46 Abs. 2 BeschV zu beachten, wonach die diesen Personen
erteilte Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung fort gilt.

§46
(2) Die einer IT-Fachkraft nach § 6 Abs. 2 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch qualifizierte Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie erteilte befristete Arbeitserlaubnis gilt als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung fort.


Later,
Cool Dude!

Hello List,

I have been watching this list since a year,

Really a good site, sometimes same questions are asked again and again. Or the info is spread in the archive. So if some one wants any info has to either post or go through all archives.

So i have a suggestion !

Can we prepare a set of How To Documents

like
- How-To Reclaim Income Tax
- How-To-Get a Driving License
- How-To-Invite Parents in Germany
- How-To-get spouse VISA
.
.
and so on for all possible things.


I am not telling that after we have these documents there wont be any doubts, ofcourse list will be active due to new/old topics and active participation by members as always.

The question is who prepares which How-To document, i feel it should be a team effort.

- we should find on which topics it should be prepared
- who are interested to take which topic
- Collective edit a document and post on this web site

Looking forward for feedback from others on this issue.

Cheers
Venkatesh

Venkatesh,

That sounds like a great idea. Lets work as a team and a plan to implement it. I think it would really be helpful for all trust7 memebers.

?

This was what I suggested in this thread too:
http://www.trust7.com/en/forums/help_needed/suggestions_to_detlef

Will having some sort of "sticky thread" help? Or will we be able to place the links of those important threads in the FAQ section? (of course thro our moderator Detlef!)

"If you say Unlimited is wrong, then what does the below mean????????????"

"als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung"

cool dude
unbefristete Zustimmung zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung
is not same as
Zustimmung zur Ausübung einer unbefristete Beschäftigung

or
unlimited agreement to work
is not same as
agreement to work unlimitedly.

this agreement means that you never AMC or that you can allwys pass this check and nothing else.
that is thing that AA has to check and pass his agreement to ABH.
In short this means that ABH could extend your visa as much times as you want without contacting AA and doing AMC because you allready have unlimited agreement from AA that you can do your IT job.
But ABH can not give you unlimited visa because law speaks only about unlimited agreement not unlimited visa.
Unlimited visa is possible but with usual conditions that unlimited visa needs meaning 5 years.

If you think I am wrong show me one guy that got NE before reaching 5 years.

"Re: Experience at ABH
The ground for the change was that I was a GC and the interim provision on the new law says that GCs have unlimited permit. The number of years that I worked and the salary level had nothing to do with it. I was at ABH for my wifes WP; without asking the beamter said I could get the "Beschaeftigung erlaubt", I said, "OK". I am in Hamburg."


Is it Hamburg Mitte? Similar happened to me before 2005. I was in Hamburg Mitte for my wife and the girl told me that I could get rid of company name which was written in Hamburg Nord.
So I did.

Hi ,

someone in this Forum got stamped "Beschäftgung Erlaubt" ,but it seems there's another one called :
„Jede Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet.“

Quote:
http://www.fluechtlingsinfo-berlin.de/fr/gesetzgebung/BMI_Hinweise_AufenthG_221204.pdf

4.2.1.1

Ist die Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet, lautet die Nebenbestimmung:
„Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet.“ (vgl. den Vordruck zur Niederlassungserlaubnis in Anlage D14
zur AufenthV)
oder
„Jede Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet.“

@DVD

Yes in HH Mitte. I didn't have the Firma name before as well. It looks like its quite common here.

Sun