Hi All

As many of you already know, today the Cancelor Schroeder have a "high level meeting" with the chiefs of the CDU/CSU. Newpapers and news says he wants to know and measure the possibilities of a law.

I was Googling a couple of minutes ago and I found a modification in the official Federal Government web page about the Zuwanderungsgesetz (as Google said, was modified about 8:30 am). Over there there is a PDF document with the whole text of the proposed law, but this is not the modified one with the Niederlassungserlaubnis for Nobel Prize winners or "Spitzenqualifizierte" who earns a couple of zillions Euro. They went back to the original text with the article 19 with the Niederlassungserlaubnis for us, humbles GC.

Maybe the GC Jurists can take a look at this text to see if I´m wrong or not. I´m just a bold mortal with just bare knowledge of the law and in addition I´m fu....g tired of findings twists and small letters to the laws to be here. (lol?)

Mfg

YO

Sorry, the link is:

http://www.bundesregierung.de/Anlage459639/Entwurf+des+Zuwanderungsgesetzes.pdf

Tschuss

YO

Don't worry guys,
when CDU/CSU comes at 2005 as ruling government for germany, they will bring back the qualified 'own' engineers of Germany who is now working outside the country and there will be no problems left with GC, immigration law etc.

Hi YO,

it is wrong. §19 is only for such GC, if he has Salary monthly 2*3.850=7.700€. "Spezialisten und leitende Angestellte mit besonderer Berufserfahrung, die ein Gehalt in Höhe von mindestens dem Doppelten der beitragsbemessungsgrenze der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung erhalten."

But no worry, §18 is for us, it means that there is no more Time-Limit for us, and after 5 years we can get PR.

The GC can stay here longer as 5 years, if the gc has a job, with or without "Zuwanderungsgesetz"! If the meeting today is not successful, the government will make own "Gesetz" for us without CDU/CSU. Do not worry. The time will come for you, to get a PR!

best reguards

GC-Holder100

Just curious - and probably it has been discussed many times before in the past – it was clearly stated from very beginning of GC programme that we can stay only for 5 years – it’s not like that German government said that we can stay indefinitely and then suddenly changed mind. So I don’t really understand what is all that fuzz about with immigration law – yes, probably most of GC’s hopped that they can stay longer, but 5 years was always a part of a deal...

Hi bies,

Simple answer. People change, feeling change, desire change. Some of us so can't wait to be here in Germany before they came, and they went back because dont like it. Some of us stays and would like to stay even longer then the 5 years. There is no justicifaction on this issue. You never know what is hot or cold untill you really taste it :-)

DD

"But no worry, §18 is for us, it means that there is no more Time-Limit for us, and after 5 years we can get PR."

lol tell me please how §18 from newly proposed law differs from §10 AuslG? The sense is the same *lol*

"The GC can stay here longer as 5 years, if the gc has a job, with or without "Zuwanderungsgesetz"! If the meeting today is not successful, the government will make own "Gesetz" for us without CDU/CSU. Do not worry. The time will come for you, to get a PR!"

A job as well as all necessary permits, true. But if GC does not have a job, he may be able to stay here longer as 5 years without "Zuwanderungsgesetz", but with "Zuwanderungsgesetz" such thing will be impossible for him.

Guys, for what do you fight? I just took a look at this proposal of "Zuwanderungsgesetz" - if it enters into force BEFORE you get PRs, you are all in big-big trouble, because it does not simplify procedure and prerequisites for getting temporary residence permits and PRs, no, it makes it harder to obtain them! As well as closes existing holes which were present only because the responsibility for foreigners was divided between two absolutely different structures, therefore two parts as well - AuslG and part of SGB III - now they will be replaced by a new law, guess control over execution will be unified as well. do you know that if this new law comes into force, you will lose any right for unemployment benefit, regardless how long you worked here? Read §5 Abs.1 Satz 1 Nr.1, §8 Abs.2 together with §2 Abs.3 of this piece of political art, please! Do you know that you will be obliged to visit integration courses, even if you have a perfect german, perfectly know german history and german legal system? lol read this piece of political art please! nobody cares! you have to if you have it written in your papers that you are foreigner! do you know that it will be practically impossible for you to work for youself or open your own business here unless you invest at least 1 million dollars in German economy and create at least 10 new work places? and i did rid only small part of it, just during 10 minutes, i am sure there is a lot more! read, read those proposals! for what you are fighting, for the rope for youself *lol*?

i know only one thing for certain - if that law gets accepted and my interests will be seriously touched by it, i am going to file myself a claim to a Constitutional Court, in order to make it ineffective. and if that will not succeed, i a going to file a claim vs. Germany to a European Court *lol*

I don't see anything wrong with people wanted to settle somewhere on this planet.

Somebody here on discutions mentioned that GC holder contract with company can be permanent. That is not the case with me, at the time when I (company) applied for my work permit they explictely asked for 5 year contract. So, my contract and visa are the same, five years long.

How about you all? You have longer contracts?

So, at 5 years time I will be at one moment without both, of course I could make a contract earlier, after for example 4 and half years, and present it to imigration office.

I'm waiting here for more comments on the this regulation amendment.

After this change of law, will there be an symple answer if we can stay over 5 years?

Regards,
Vladimir

Thanks sengkiang or "The man formerly known as DD" ;-)). You put the things clear but I can help you.

I guess the point here is another, just more important things than "Hey, you came here for 5 years, now go back home stupid".

Yes, Bies. You are right. This subject was extensely discussed here with some "friends" who allways want to kick us our countries (I don´t mean to say "home" because "home is where you are").

I would like to terminate with this nonsense point now. If you read the answer given by one of the authors of the GC regulations (link posted here a month ago) the spirit of the regulation was not to spit us from Germany after five years but give us the possibility to be here BUT FOLLOWING THE NORMAL AUSLANDERRECHT! and not a kind of Legal Limbo as is GC.

I don´t know if I want to be here after my 5 years. Is not only my decision. But I also don´t want the government kick my a.. out of Germany because I don´t deserve it and the company who bring me here or any who pays me won´t be also happy.

It´s a matter of "openmindness" in bad english.

For some of us, came here was not an "experiment" or "winning experience to get a better job in my country". I bring my experience here.

Maybe now you can understand this "fuzz" about the f...g law.

Regards

YO

Hi Trusday,

You only have to attend to the integration courses if you can not explain yourself simple german, an simple in the way that you can build the phrases incorrectly and use incorrect words, and pronunciate them wrong, as long as what you intend to express is clear. Even if you are obliged to attend, there are some exceptions. See §45. There is also one incentive to attend, See §10 Abs.(3) Änderung des Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetzes.

In §8. Abs. 2 seems to be a little mathematical inconsistence, since it seems to say the following:

1) If then first Aufenthaltserlaubnis was given with the restriction that it can not be extended, then it will not be extended (which looks like the GC case to me), ok, base case.

2) If the last time you extended your permit, the Foreigners Office decided that this is the last extension, then it can not be extended one more time. (The inductive case)

So if you have successfuly extended your permit once already (and the Foreigners Office didn't decide that this will be the last extension), and then you ask for another extension and they decide to deny it, they need another reason to do it and not §8 Abs.2

As for §2 Abs.3, well if you pay Arbeitslosenversicherung, Pflegeversicherung, rentenversicherung ( ... Dabei bleiben das Kindergeld sowie öffentliche Mittel außer Betracht, die auf Beitragsleistungen beruhen oder die gewährt werden, um den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet zu ermöglichen.) Nothing changes here either.

Of course this is only my Interpretation of the law, and I could be wrong.

"You only have to attend to the integration courses if you can not explain yourself simple german"

§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis

(2) Einem Ausländer ist die Niederlassungserlaubnis (PR - my comment) zu erteilen, wenn
...
7. er über ausreichende Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache verfügt,
8. er über Grundkenntnisse der Rechts- und Gesellschaftsordnung und der Lebensverhältnisse im Bundesgebiet verfügt
...
Die Voraussetzungen des Satzes 1 Nr. 7 und 8 sind nachgewiesen, wenn ein Integrationskurs erfolgreich abgeschlossen wurde. Von diesen Voraussetzungen wird
abgesehen, wenn der Ausländer sie wegen einer körperlichen, geistigen oder seelischen Krankheit oder Behinderung nicht erfüllen kann. Im Übrigen kann zur Vermeidung einer Härte von den Voraussetzungen des Satzes 1 Nr. 7 und 8 abgesehen
werden.

we were talking about PR *lol*? ;)

"So if you have successfuly extended your permit once already (and the Foreigners Office didn't decide that this will be the last extension), and then you ask for another extension and they decide to deny it, they need another reason to do it and not §8 Abs.2"

True, but do not forget that the law has effect only on relationships which appeared after it came into force. so to say, if you prolonged your residence permit before this law came into force, it will hardly matter in sense of application of §8; and if this law will be accepted, the local authorities will get their instructions in time, do not worry about that *lol* ;)

"As for §2 Abs.3, well if you pay Arbeitslosenversicherung, Pflegeversicherung, rentenversicherung ( ... Dabei bleiben das Kindergeld sowie öffentliche Mittel außer Betracht, die auf Beitragsleistungen beruhen oder die gewährt werden, um den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet zu ermöglichen.) Nothing changes here either."

LOL here you are right, as i told before, i read the document only during 10 minutes, so did not look at those paragraphs thoroughly. But! look here:

§ 8 Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
(1) Auf die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis finden dieselben Vorschriften Anwendung wie auf die Erteilung.
...
§ 18 Beschäftigung
...
Einem Ausländer kann (!!!) eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung erteilt werden,

- you no longer have a right for a temporary residence permit or for a prolongation of a temporary residence permit, and it does not matter whether you are GC or not. the same (no longer have a right) applies to a case when you are unemployed and need to change your residence permit in order to obtain an unemployment benefit - by the way, such purpose of issue of temporary residence permit (for a search for a new work place) i was not able to find in a new law. hence i would like to point out, that accordingly to IT-AAV you do have a right for a temporary residence permit as well as for its prolongation when you have a work permit; also currently you do have a right for a temporary residence permit up to 6 months when you are unemployed and are searching for a new job. "Do have a right" means that officials can not refuse to issue you a residence permit; with a new law you can say "bye-bye" to those rights, or? *lol* ;)

And look at this piece of political art please:

"§ 106 Einschränkung von Grundrechten
(1) Die Grundrechte der körperlichen Unversehrtheit (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 1 des Grundgesetzes) und der Freiheit der Person (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 2 des Grundgesetzes) werden nach Maßgabe dieses Gesetzes eingeschränkt."

So! Germany no longer complies with basic human rights when it comes to foreigners *lol* ;)

Trusday,
First of all, please stop this style of writing. This is not
polite at all. Your comments are full of citations to other
posts and with this irritating " *lol* " symbols. This gives
me the feeling that you are making fun of the original
poster or at least teasing that person. Maybe your intention
is not "making fun and/or teasing" but this style
gives that feeling.(I am sure other posters will agree on this point)
so PLEASE STOP IT..


On the other hand,
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
§ 8 Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis
(1) Auf die Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis finden dieselben Vorschriften Anwendung wie auf die Erteilung.
...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
here it talks about an extension of residence permit. As a GC Holder, in case
I become unemployed, I am not prolonging my residence permit to get unemployment benefits.
I am changing the validness period of my residence permit(probably shortening it, not extending)
I dont see any relevance here..



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
§ 18 Beschäftigung
...
Einem Ausländer kann (!!!) eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung erteilt werden,
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
this does not necessarily imply also what you are claiming. How are they going to exclude you from
unemployment benefits with this. You already have your residence permit. this again talks about how
to get residence permit. No relevance also here.

You seem to be so happy when you see that GC Holders actually may lose some rights
with this law. So enjoy it.. *lol* (just to show you how irrating it can be)

and I totally agree with you about the Human Rights Violation of foreigners living in
Germany with this new law. If this "Sicherungshaft" story comes into power. It is even more Human Rights
violation. That is another story.

Regards

Lacrima

VR,
at least I have unlimited contract and should be getting Arbeitsberechtigung this week (because I'm from new EU country...) - but this means nothing - we already had attempt to outsource everything, it failed, but this doesn't mean that it won't happen again. There are also constant talks about either selling our company or merging it...

I'm slowly becoming convinced that I should have studied law.

"True, but do not forget that the law has effect only on relationships which appeared after it came into force. so to say, if you prolonged your residence permit before this law came into force, it will hardly matter in sense of application of §8; and if this law will be accepted, the local authorities will get their instructions in time, do not worry about that"

See §104 (2), Übergangsregelungen

(1) Über vor dem [Einsetzen: Datum des Inkrafttretens nach Artikel 15 Abs. 3] gestellte Anträge auf Erteilung einer unbefristeten Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder einer Aufenthaltsberechtigung ist nach dem bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt geltenden Recht zu entscheiden. § 101 Abs. 1 gilt entsprechend.
(2) Bei Ausländern, die vor dem [Einsetzen: Datum des Inkrafttretens nach Artikel 15 Abs. 3] im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis sind, ist es bei der
Entscheidung über die Erteilung einer Niederlassungserlaubnis hinsichtlich der sprachlichen Kenntnisse nur erforderlich, dass sie sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen können. § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung.

But true, new immigrants apparently will have to take part in a course to get their Niederlassungserlaubnis. But I doubt that this requisite will be regulary enforced on qualified migrants.

"§ 106 Einschränkung von Grundrechten
(1) Die Grundrechte der körperlichen Unversehrtheit (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 1 des Grundgesetzes) und der Freiheit der Person (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 2 des Grundgesetzes) werden nach Maßgabe dieses Gesetzes eingeschränkt."

Well, the wording per se could mean anything, if , for example, someone tries to get people into germany, an and they die in the process, and therefore he has to sit in jail therefore having his freedom of movement restricted, I really wouldn't care much.

But you are right, the potential for misuse is there. I hope we dont have to see "Escape from Bayern" a "spiegel reportage" of an unfairly incarcerated Green Card holder, but I really don't believe that a law will pass that allows people to be put 2 years in prision just because someone hears a rumor, at least I hope that it doesn't.

"First of all, please stop this style of writing. This is not
polite at all. Your comments are full of citations to other
posts and with this irritating " *lol* " symbols."

Surely my comments are full of citations - i answer other people and therefore make it easier for them to understand which parts of my posting relate to their postings. As for *lol* symbols, this is my style of writing and i fail to see how it touches your dignity or dignity of somebody else. We are living in a free country where everybody has a right to express his/her opinion in any way, unless it is a way of proclaiming violence or a way of touching other's dignity; if you would like to tell me that my way of expressing opinion is not acceptable please show me then how i violated above mentioned principles. otherwise i am sorry, but your words seem to me not completely adequate to the situation. i do understand that most of you are frustrated and are not very happy because of some decisions of politicians as well as because of situation development but it is still no reason to tell me that it is not right for me to show that i personally am happy with everything *lol* ;)

"I become unemployed, I am not prolonging my residence permit to get unemployment benefits. I am changing the validness period of my residence permit(probably shortening it, not extending)"

When GC becomes unemployed he normally has to prolong his/her residence permit because his original residence permit becomes invalid - read a conditions sheet of your residence permit, what is written there? i have said "normally" because there are cases when authorities did not specify right conditions when issuing a residence permit, as well as there are even more cases when they close their eyes and do not require GC to obtain a new residence permit. therefore the relevance is pretty clear for me, if my explanation was unsufficient (which is possible of course, words can be understood in different ways *lol* ) please tell me and i will try to explain it more clearly *lol* ;)

"this does not necessarily imply also what you are claiming. How are they going to exclude you from unemployment benefits with this. You already have your residence permit."

please read above - normally you do not have your residence permit, the authorities just close their eyes partly because they know that you have a right for at least 6-months-long residence permit for a search of a new job position and therefore do not want to make an additional work, as it would change nothing *lol* ;)

"You seem to be so happy when you see that GC Holders actually may lose some rights with this law. So enjoy it.. *lol* (just to show you how irrating it can be)"

you forget that i am a GC as well *lol* ;) i am just pointing out at the reality, if you guys would like to believe that new immigration law will improve your status in Germany, you can believe that, i do not care. but i can express my own opinion and if i see that something is black i will never say that it is white *lol* ;) also, i have learned in my life not to rely on politicians and blame firstly myself for everything that went wrong with my expectations and calculations, just because it does not help to think what was possible to do and whom is possible to blame when the train left the station and you behind; therefore i am used to act, not to wait for a present from the sky and in case when i see that newly accepted law touches my interests, i will not cry about unjustice on any forum but will file a claim to a Constitutional Court *lol*

"and I totally agree with you about the Human Rights Violation of foreigners living in Germany with this new law. If this "Sicherungshaft" story comes into power. It is even more Human Rights violation. That is another story."

LOL at least you agreed with me here, thanks a lot. "Sicherunghaft" - "for Freiheit der Person (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 2 des Grundgesetzes)", but do not forget about "der körperlichen Unversehrtheit (Artikel 2 Abs. 2 Satz 1 des Grundgesetzes)"! Do you know what i think about it? it's not a secret that foreigners health is severely damaged and sometimes they are even killed by the deportation, lately there were some publications about such things ... i guess this addition can be used in order to justify ANY means and ANY consequences of deportation

"(1) Über vor dem [Einsetzen: Datum des Inkrafttretens nach Artikel 15 Abs. 3] gestellte Anträge auf Erteilung einer unbefristeten Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder einer Aufenthaltsberechtigung ist nach dem bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt geltenden Recht zu entscheiden. § 101 Abs. 1 gilt entsprechend."

if you are able to submit an application on PR before this new law comes into force, you are lucky. therefore i would suggest to submit such applications in two months before five years are over, in case if this law does not come into force till then *lol* ;)

"(2) Bei Ausländern, die vor dem [Einsetzen: Datum des Inkrafttretens nach Artikel 15 Abs. 3] im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis sind, ist es bei der
Entscheidung über die Erteilung einer Niederlassungserlaubnis hinsichtlich der sprachlichen Kenntnisse nur erforderlich, dass sie sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen können. § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung."

yes, it's for "7. er über ausreichende Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache verfügt,". But "8. er über Grundkenntnisse der Rechts- und Gesellschaftsordnung und der Lebensverhältnisse im Bundesgebiet verfügt" still remains, so it changes nothing *lol* ;)

I get a feeling you guys are going to read & understand the complete Immigration law even before it is integrated. I thought my life is not enough to completely undertand the law. By the way don't forget to keep updated for each character change in the law.

good luck & have fun,
Nitin

"I thought my life is not enough to completely undertand the law."

LOL nobody currently can. it's a new Babylon pyramid, and politicians make it bigger and bigger with every year. there will be time when the institute of judges and lawyers will be no longer able to support it *lol* ;)

anyway, human beings are given a sense of danger when they can be persuaded to open their eyes. everything of course depends on a target which a person have ... and my sense of danger considering my target tells me that not everything is right with a new immigration law ...

Hi Friends

To all of you, law experts, lol's and so on.

I´ve just heard they could arrive to an agreement.

Agreement under which bases? Who knows. I hope doesn´t be on our heads.

Let´s see what more emerge from this "deep and dark" water of politics

Regards

YO

Hi again

Just looking up some news I found this:

http://www.nzz.ch/2004/05/25/al/page-newzzDUOC0RAU-12.html

First time in all this time, we are briefly mentioned by an authority, not as GC but as one example profession (like Engineers). I always hate this stupid stamp in my passport, but who knows, maybe now it can help me.

Also there is a mention of Selbständige, saying will can stay here if they contribute to the economy.

Let´s see what happens and any other news are welcome

YO

"Nach Schröders Worten wird das neue Zuwanderungsrecht flexibel auf die Bedürfnisse des Arbeitsmarkts eingehen. So sollen hochqualifizierte Ausländer wie etwa Ingenieure oder Führungskräfte in Forschung und Wissenschaft von Anfang an ein Daueraufenthaltsrecht erhalten. Selbstständige werde man ins Land lassen, «wenn es positive Auswirkungen für die Wirtschaftskraft in Deutschland hat»."

(1) Einem hoch qualifizierten Ausländer kann in besonderen Fällen eine Niederlassungserlaubnis erteilt werden, wenn die Bundesanstalt für Arbeit nach § 39 zugestimmt hat oder durch Rechtsverordnung nach § 42 oder zwischenstaatliche Vereinbarung bestimmt ist, dass die Niederlassungserlaubnis ohne Zustimmung der Bundesanstalt für Arbeit nach § 39 erteilt werden kann und die Annahme gerechtfertigt ist, dass die Integration in die Lebensverhältnisse der Bundesrepublik Deutschland ohne staatliche Hilfe gewährleistet ist.
(2) Hoch qualifiziert nach Absatz 1 sind insbesondere 1.Wissenschaftler mit besonderen fachlichen Kenntnissen,
2. Lehrpersonen in herausgehobener Funktion oder wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter in herausgehobener Funktion oder
3. Spezialisten und leitende Angestellte mit besonderer Berufserfahrung, die ein Gehalt in Höhe von mindestens dem Doppelten der Beitragsbemessungsgrenze der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung erhalten.

LOL in fact nothing new is said, man. Engineers will get a PR if they are needed on a labour market (how do you think personally, GCs are needed on a labour market?) or if their presence is good for economic of Germany (here you have a boundary of 80.000 EUR brutto p.a.)

Nobody says that Germany will not accept whom it needs to boost its economy; it does not even need an immigration law for that - all tools are present there in current laws. The question is: does Germany needs GCs right now? Answer it honestly to yourself, and you have half of your answer ... the other half would be an answer on another question: would Germany like to risk a political scandal and throw GCs out? i do not know and nobody will tell us until it is decided ... but the holes in laws will be closed, that's for sure ;)

btw i personally think that politicians will not think what to do with GCs - they will leave this question in hands of local authorities

"yes, it's for "7. er über ausreichende Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache verfügt,". But "8. er über Grundkenntnisse der Rechts- und Gesellschaftsordnung und der Lebensverhältnisse im Bundesgebiet verfügt" still remains, so it changes nothing *lol*"

"... mündlich verständigen können. (Begins a new sentence) § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung."

True. thanks for pointing out

lol need to read more careful next time. something which is done in a hurry usually results at least in one mistake *lol*

well then we at least will be free from those integration courses *lol*

btw the only way to file a claim to a Constitutional Court for us is this one:

BVerfGG § 90

(1) Jedermann kann mit der Behauptung, durch die öffentliche Gewalt in einem seiner Grundrechte oder in einem seiner in Artikel 20 Abs. 4, Artikel 33, 38, 101, 103 und 104 des Grundgesetzes enthaltenen Rechte verletzt zu sein, die Verfassungsbeschwerde zum Bundesverfassungsgericht erheben.

so it's not possible for a person to file a claim to a Constitutional Court if he sees that some law does not correspond to a Constitution, he only can file a claim if that law breaks his (and only his, not the other guy's rights!) basic rights. clever - theoretical cases are not allowed, if everybody happy with a situation, nobody cares which law corresponds to human rights and which doesn't. means as well that foreigners must themselves think about their rights and defend them *lol* ;)