Hello all,

I am a 32-years-old turkish mechanical engineer who has been specialized in the IT-area. I have several training certificates on SAP_R3 Logistics moduls and obtained a Microsoft Certified Solution Developer certificate (MCSD) in Feb 2004. I also have a 4 months of experience over a fully functional MRP (manufacturing resource planning) program.
In Berlin I have learned german within only 8 months and "jezt kann ich fast alle deutsche Texte problemlos verstehen und im Alltag kann ich mich fließend ausdrucken"
I haven't actually tried it yet but I believe I could confidently speak german in business life, too.

Next to my mechanical engineering experience in the automotive field, I have an operating knowledge on many environments, especially on "Microsoft Solution Framework" and have a deep interest in mobiles technologies like "Symbian" and the "Windows Mobile".

I have learned from german news that the GC application deadline is extended until 31.12.2004. That means within a reasonable time if I can find an employer I hold a chance to get this very-much-talked-about green card, don't I?

It also sounds like that the German companies still keep on demanding IT-workers. Otherwise they would have stopped it on September 2003 as it was initially planned.

Under these circumstances I want to give it a try and seriously begin searching a job in Germany. Do you think it's worth it?

For the next one year I have a right of free access to Germany as I hold a "Aufenthaltstitel" which is valid until the middle of 2005 but which doesnt include (of course!) any kind of work permit.
Anyway it means I can easily go and make job interview with anyone in Germany.

So, according to you, what are my chances of getting an IT-Job and a Green Card in Germany?

You hold greatest amount of information and experience to answer that question. So please tell me what you think
Every comment is highly appreciated.

Thanks

Merhaba Berkan
I would say take a look here:

www.yesilkart.de

and also maybe more specificly here:

http://www.yesilkart.de/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34#141

The archieve of the following group also may help, such questions as yours were asked thousand times in the following group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/almanya_network/

on the other hand, your qualifications look quite ok.. but do you know, what really matters ? to be able to speak German.. I mean "really" speaking.. can you handle a job interview in German ? Did you already prepare your cover letter and CV in German ? if all yes.. then you have good chances.. if it is worth it or not.. that is another long discussion.. :-)

Take Care

Lacrima

Vielen Dank für die Antwort,

Du meinst dass, Fähigkeit deutsch zu sprechen am wichtigsten ist?
Dann stimme ich zu! Wie ich es schon ausgesagt habe, kann ich mich auf deutsch ausdrücken. So lange es die Alltagsprache betrifft, habe ich nicht sehr großen Probleme, ich kann mindestens verstehen was es gesprochen wird und danach entsprechend antworten. Aber in jedem Fall ist es sehr klar dass ich deutsch als Fremdsprache spreche!

You're correct about the importance of the language. It always matters. For the time being I can speak german at an acceptible level. I've worked really hard to make it though.

So thanks for your comments. It looks like I will take my chances for Germany!

Greetings,

If you have that much skills, go and give a try to Canada.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/index.html

Germany is not a suitable place for foreigners. I do not say that the country and its people are bad but that is the reality.
With the effort you will use in Germany to get settled, you may try to use your skills in a more effective way in Canada. You can also try Hong Kong, China etc.

If you try to come to Germany as a skilled worker, you will be treated mostly like 'Gastarbeiter' in Germany when the people figure out that you are Turkish citizen. May be Gastarbeiter and GC are the same for politicians ;)

Other than that did you see how the queue is like at German embassy/consulate Istanbul during early morning hours

Also be ready for paying ~1000 Euro to change your driving license to German one here plus sitting for the written exam and driving qualification (45 minutes long) with 18 year old German boys and girls.

And please READ this book if you decide to come to Germany, especially the chapter about finding a flat and how the german real estate broker is explaining the facts.

Culture Shock! Germany (Culture Shock! Country Guides)
by Richard Lord
Publisher: Graphic Arts Center Publishing Company;
Revised edition (May 1, 2003)
ISBN: 1558687564

Some of you may criticise me because i am only telling about negative facts. Yes that is true. I was not like that before i came to Germany. I learn here how one becomes slowly a pessimist, stop to see the positive side of daily life and always able to find something to 'mekkern' (to complain).

To learn about the positives, come to Germany and discover them yourself.(you dont need visa to enter Switzerland, milk is cheap etc.)

Good Luck.

Sad....but everything that pwehrli mentioned is true !!

German GC´s dont have a future!!..... Not in Germany.

:-(
-Fred

"If you try to come to Germany as a skilled worker, you will be treated mostly like 'Gastarbeiter' in Germany when the people figure out that you are Turkish citizen."

That is true, this is a problem which I face quite often but there are also nice things like, to be able to find daily newspaper in your native language, to be able to find always someone who speaks your native language when you go to Arbeitsamt/Doctor/Shopping etc.. :-) so you feel like at home here.. :-)


"Other than that did you see how the queue is like at German embassy/consulate Istanbul during early morning hours"

This is also true but you need to be in that queue only once :-)


"To learn about the positives, come to Germany and discover them yourself.(you dont need visa to enter Switzerland, milk is cheap etc.)"

Also you can visit other Schengen countries without problem and the streets are clean, there are nice highways, you can drink any sort of beer which you even not heard about before.. etc.. :-)

Have Fun

Lacrima

Thanks again for your interest.

Well I have made up my mind and I will go to Germany in the following week. I will at least try.
As for the things that you talked about, i.e. the long queues, that happens anywhere I think. I still remember my first days in Berlin while I was trying to make my "Anmeldung"... I had waited maybe 5 hours in "Bezirksamt" It's only a matter of how many officers are appointed to a place I think.

Apart from that, almost no German has shown any kind of hostility to me just because I was türkisch, or foreigner. On the contrary, they have shown more understanding then I expected.

And so, again that discussion of "Gastarbeiter"... It's true for every country I think. In my workplace "in der Türkei", from time to time we used to have technicians and engineers coming from France for several weeks and even in these short periods of time, we used to tend to treat them as "Gastarbeiter"!
It's something you may face anywhere in the world, not only in Germany.

Respect.

If we have contact after your possible 3 years of GC work experience Germany, i want to talk to you again at the end of 3 years

Good Luck.

@lacrima:
"the streets are clean, there are nice highways, you can drink any sort of beer which you even not heard about before.. etc.. "

ha ha ha... all this is just ILLUSION !!

hope you had nice dreams, now wake up to face the reality!

What´ll you do if you were kicked out of this country after 5 years?

@fred
"What´ll you do if you were kicked out of this country after 5 years?"

No, they can not kick-out the Turkish GCs easily.. see this link, if you are interested why..

http://www.trust7.com/en/forums/gcs_in_your_neighborhood/trk_gcli_varmi_suche_trkische_gcler_looking_for_turkish_gc_holders

Regards

Lacrima

In your place; i will forget Germany and try to get a good job in the turkey or to make there my own Business; i am sure there is a lot of things to make in the expanding economy oy your country; in the turkey you will be AT HOME; wich things will germany gives you that you don t have in turkey.
Germny is nit a place for foreigenrs coming from countries with other cultural Background.

every country is like that.
it isn't better in Iran or Turkey than in G

to Lacrima:
I supose that the first Turkish GC Holder completed his first 4 years so he should allready have ArbB.
Maybe even AufB.
Do you know anything about it?

@DvD

I have a Turkish GC friend who is gonna apply in next month for Arbeitsberechtigung, so I will use his case as a reference to me.. :-)

I also heard in some Turkish GC discussion groups that some people asked AuslaenderBehoerde, Arbeitsamt regarding this special regulation for Turkish citizens and most of them got positive answers (like "After 4 years, come and we will do it" etc)

that is all I know about it..

Regards

Lacrima

All the best to lacrima and all other Turkish GC´s !

-Fred

Well it seems that my initial issue has gone off the topic.
Most people seem to be interested in "How To Extend Their 'Arbeitserlaubnis' After 4 or 5 Years" (as expected though, when it's considered that many of you have spent a lot years there). However I am first and foremost interested in "How To Get It At The Very Beginning" (naturally

I guess I must find an IT-job with a total pay of 50.000 Euro/Year in order to secure a Green Card in Germany. Is that right?
(During the Green Card issuing procedure, someone with an IT background but no university graduation at an IT branch, must prove that he is going to earn this money, musn't he?)

Speaking from my own experience, I estimate I could produce a work that's worth of that money. But... will my prospective employer also anticipate the same and really allow me to take the job?

That's the most crucial part of the issue.

50.000 Eur/year is not a negligible amount of money and so anyone who approves it, must have completely appreciated my background.

I rely mainly on my german knowledge and the "Microsoft Certified Solution Developer" certificate at that point.

I have no certificate in german language like the "Zertifikat Deutsch" but I believe, or at least my previous german teacher commented so, that I can handle the german language enough.
Anyway, when it comes to speaking a language, a certificate doesnt make so much sense.
However, I obtained a certificate for the IT, as I think, or at least the general consensus dictates so, in the IT business a certificate matters a lot, if not so much as a university graduation. Because
a certificate involves automatically a certain amount of experience too. But it can never take the place of an IT-related university graduation.

So I still wonder what will I face in the future. So far, I have never
searched an IT-job in Germany and I'm about to search for one.

Hope things will work out fine for me!

Hi
Some comments to your last post starting with "->"

"I guess I must find an IT-job with a total pay of 50.000 Euro/Year in order to secure a Green Card in Germany. Is that right?"
-> Right

"(During the Green Card issuing procedure, someone with an IT background but no university graduation at an IT branch, must prove that he is going to earn this money, musn't he?)"
-> Yes he must !Correct ! but I have some friends with Electronic Engineering Degree who managed to get greencard without this 50K limit.. (but ofcourse they met 40K limit which is valid for people who have IT Degrees)


"Speaking from my own experience, I estimate I could produce a work that's worth of that money. But... will my prospective employer also anticipate the same and really allow me to take the job?"
-> Well, you never know before you try.. but the job market is not that good nowadays.. I personally know some German IT Graduates who are jobless more than a year..


"I rely mainly on my german knowledge and the "Microsoft Certified Solution Developer" certificate at that point."
-> Certificates are nice but they are not University degrees.. and they will not exempt you from 50K llimit..


"I have no certificate in german language like the "Zertifikat Deutsch" but I believe, or at least my previous german teacher commented so, that I can handle the german language enough."
-> "Zertifikat Deutsch" is a piece of cake to pass.. but as you said Certificates do not show anything.. and believe me.. Most of the German Employers dont even heard about such german language certificates.. what they care is that your CV is in German(I know some big German companies where HR eliminates automatically CVs which are sent in English) that you can talk to them fluently.. and understand what they say.. :-)


"But it can never take the place of an IT-related university graduation."
-> Very TRUE


"So I still wonder what will I face in the future. So far, I have never
searched an IT-job in Germany and I'm about to search for one."
-> Good Luck !

Hope things will work out fine for me!
-> All the best !

Lacrima

Lacrima,

Looking at your comment below, please try to be more objective. ZD is including 7 different parts like:

Leseverstehen
Sprachbausteine
Hörverstehen
Schriftlicher Ausdruck
Kontaktaufnahme
Gespräch
Aufgabe lösen

And you need to get at least %60 from all of them. Even the time you spend up during the exam is not only 45 minutes or 1 hour. It may be "piece of cake" for myself or some others but you should have some background to sit for this paper spontaneously.

Other than that you may face with some Swiss, Austrian, Bayern dialects from the CD at Hörverstehen part during the exam which can be quite annoying for someone who used to hear Hochdeutsch in daily life. So if you pass the exam, you will see the "ösd" www.osd.at "EDK,CDIP,CDPE,CDEP" www.edk.ch and not only the GOETHE-INSTITUT at the end of your paper.

piece of cake, yes, but not for everyone walking on the street.

------------------------------------------------------
"I have no certificate in german language like the "Zertifikat Deutsch" but I believe, or at least my previous german teacher commented so, that I can handle the german language enough."
-> "Zertifikat Deutsch" is a piece of cake to pass..

Hello pwherli,

I am being objective in my comments.. I passed ZD in the fourth month after my arrival to Germany(I was not taking any intensive courses) and till today, I couldnt use it anywhere.. it is just useless piece of paper.. none of the Unis in Germany will accept it as a proof of german language knowledge.. and yes it is the most "piece of cake" exam among the other ones ZOP, ZMP, KDS, GDS, DHS.. it is the first exam you can take after finishing beginner level courses.. so do you still think I was being subjective ? please check this web-site to see the level of ZD..

http://www.goethe.de/ins/de/prf/deindex.htm

ZD has level 2 in ALTE scale.. check the ALTE site in order to find out what level 2 means actually ?

http://www.alte.org/can_do/general.cfm

Goethe's web pages say ZD will be accepted as a proof of german knowledge when someone wants to have german citizenship.. but it is not accepted by the German Unis.. funny ha ? :-)

If I were starting from the beginning to learn german language and take some language exams.. then I would never spend my money on an useless paper of ZD.. I would continue to learn and get a direct ZMP which is "at least" accepted by some Unis..

anyway.. I dont want to underestimate here any efforts for ZD.. but it is not a big difference to have it.. and I still insist that it is easy to get.. :-)

Have a nice weekend..

Lacrima

Lacrima,

Unfortunately you are nothing being than obstinate with your comments. I dont remember that i told this paper will get one into universities etc. German citizenship requires the following:

Sprachkenntnisse
Bedingung für die Einbürgerung sind ausreichende deutsche Sprachkenntnisse. Es soll keine formelle Sprachprüfung geben. Oft wird die Vorlage von Zeugnissen ausreichen. Wird in einem Gespräch mit dem Einbürgerungsbewerber deutlich, dass eine Verständigung im täglichen Leben nicht möglich ist, wird die Einbürgerung versagt.
http://www.einbuergerung.de

It is not funny that the universities are asking for different papers to accept students. Getting German passport and studying at a university are different things. Even if you study and get completed with a university here, you dont automatically get citizenship or permanent residence.

The only thing that i am trying to tell here is ZD is not a piece of cake and it requires at least background with the language or 2-3 months training for the paper to sit for the paper spontaneously. If you think it is so easy to get, then i would say it is good to have it near the ZMP paper. Both having ZMP and ZD will not put you into prison. 2 counts more for myself. I agree with your comments that ZMP is more effective when you are looking for something job, uni. education.

Piece of cake is good for you but this does not mean for anyone entering to germany with schengen visa will get the paper in the next few days.

Well that will be off the topic too but I can't help commenting on something that I've witnessed in Berlin. Most of the foreigners and especially the chinese students who had passed those kinds of exams spoke simply so bad german. My intention is not to degrade those people (by the way my only girlfirend was a chinese girl) but I gotta say their speaking was so full of errors, and in the true sense, annoying. That didnt fit the fact that they had passed a language exam, simply unbelievable! Even though it was none of my business, I had started to doubt the credibility of those exams: Could there have been a fraud?
So all in all, it's not my matter.