I woke up this holiday morning only to find my mail box stucked with spam messages, mainly stuff coming from the mailgroups within my work e-mail.

Now, that's hardly an unusual thing. What it makes it unusual, disgusting, alarming is that this new spam attack is all in German, and all messages are dealing with topics such as

Die Deform der sozialen Ordnung
Wir haben die Auslaender doch geholt?!
MULTI-KULTI-BANDE TYRANNISIERTE MITSCHUELER
ASYLANT QUAELTE TIERE BRUTAL ZU TODE
EU Beitritt der Tuerkei ?
Was Deutschland braucht, sind deutsche Kinder!

I will spare you the disgusting texts. Turkey is the main target in those mails, but the attack is generic against all "auslaender".

I don't want to make the spam bigger. I am just enraged that there are still people - and this is not the work of just sick one, there is an enormous amount of well-articulated content in those mails- distilling such amount of hatred.

This kind of spam arrived now to all my colleagues in my company (an American one), and they look like serious articles. I have already received requests like "hey, what are those mails saying?" from my coworkers in other parts of the world.

I know, and if not I wish, that this is an isolated expression of some sick minds. Still, it worries me how well organized this attack seems to be. We are talking of hundreds of big, well written emails "denouncing" all kinds of crimes commited by foreigners, as well as the risks for the "society", the "social system" and so on.

Again, I know, is just spam. Still, I cannot help feeling a chilling breeze this warm German morning.

Have a nice day,

DiegoC.

Just as an example, this is one of the links included in those mails

http://www.deutschland-bewegung.de/weiter/zuwanderung.html

I just cannot say "ignore it". It is too disgusting.

Diego aka Sudaca

HI,

Sudaca said, "I am just enraged that there are still people - and this is not the work of just sick one, there is an enormous amount of well-articulated content in those mails- distilling such amount of hatred."

What I say here are only my views. It is a bit delicate to talk about it. I would like to remind you that people like Martin Heideggar, the one-time Chancellor of University Freiburg and a famous philosopher was a known supporter of SS. It has nothing to do with education or being articulate. Main reason of this hate was/is racial superiority complex. An undercurrent of that is still present in many well-to-do Germans, though it does not surface often. But it is there. And (God forbid) if another fanatic like Hitler could kindle this undercurrent, well.....

And on a less serious note, I once even thought of my escape ways, in case of a problem. The French border is only 30 kilometers from here. lol.

Chirag.

These days it is a lot of fun to see on tv, streets announcements to use "Turkey" as a political tool in European Parlement election.

One of the funny thing is the turks living in germany apply more and more every single day for the german citizenship and Germany gives them citizenship even people who can not speak the german language properly

I can never understand this behaviour.
"I swim in the sea and i get wet"

Sorry man but you had to think about how these people go back when they are done with Germany when you were bringing them in huge amount of counts at 1970s as Gastarbeitern.

There is nothing to say much, go get yourself insured for everything possible, stay away from German Behörde and Amts as soon as possible.

sorry....
as much as possible instead of as soon as possible, though as soon as possible is not a bad idea also ;)

"I will spare you the disgusting texts. Turkey is the main target in those mails, but the attack is generic against all "auslaender"."

Yes. The thing is (as i understand it) that germans do not want to give away their homeland, and it is possible to understand them. politicians and businessmen have invited too many foreigners for their own purposes, so many that people are not going to tolerate that any more, otherwise they are going just to lose their homeland.

sad here is that they will make no difference between you (with a GC) and another criminal, who made fictive documents in his home country, came here and got asylum, social aid and continued to work in the area of porno- and drugsimport.

the root here is asylum. it's sad to say, because the thing was firstly intended to help pursued in other countries, but in reality now it is used mainly by criminals, spies and others like them; of course it is understandable that people here want to have such personalities no more.

look at the Jews who were given a right to live here - do they work at all? most of them get social aid and think about new ways how to get money out of nothing - but that is no surprise, because they always were used to do just that and therefore EVERY nation eventually had problems with them.

"Just as an example, this is one of the links included in those mails

http://www.deutschland-bewegung.de/weiter/zuwanderung.html

I just cannot say "ignore it". It is too disgusting."

But at least this thing below is right, isn't it? politicians and businessmen wanted to have a situation when people compete for a work place - they have it now. or do you think that you have the same rights as natives here? why all those talks about immigration law then? ;)

Die Wirtschaft braucht Billig-Kräfte

Darum unterstützen BDI und Arbeitgeber die rot-grüne Einwanderungspolitik.
...
Richtig ist: Junge Computer-Kräfte aus Asien und Osteuropa kosten weniger und haben weniger Rechte.

"And (God forbid) if another fanatic like Hitler could kindle this undercurrent, well....."

what do you know about Hitler? The things which are written in history books? Now question yourself: who writes those history books?

btw i will tell you - Hitler in his time was thought as a poor foreigner who should go back from where he came from - therefore we had what we had. do you really think that germans will start a war? for what purpose? if EU is already a fact of life? they will just throw out foreigners and be done with it, if it comes to worst.

"One of the funny thing is the turks living in germany apply more and more every single day for the german citizenship and Germany gives them citizenship even people who can not speak the german language properly"

yes, because officials have such instructions and laws. if those change, a mass deportation can be carried very quickly in the same way.


lol please understand me here: it's not that i approve such change in politics, just state facts of life, how i understand them. it's not right to look at everything just from the point of view of self-interests, man must think about interests of others as well.

Trusday,

and what do YOU know about Hitler? Whatever you know, is also from books. And I have info about him also from the father of my freundin who had to serve in 1944-45 in Czechoslovakia when he was just 16. Whatever you have written here sounds a lot "Rechts radikal". Are you one of them?

I know that Germany would not start a war again. In such a case, Germany would cease to exist after it. But the "verfolgung der Ausländer" would continue unabated and so many thousands would lose their lives if these Rechts radikals have their way. And America would not be able to do anything quickly as then it would be an internal matter of Germany.

And anyway. The Polizei has got the info about the Spam. And they are serious about it. Go thru :

http://oncomputer.t-online.de/c/20/56/66/2056668.html

Dont forget that there was a serious plan of bombing the Synagogue in München by the Rechts radikals when Johannes Rau was going to inaugurate it.

I am strongly opoosed to your point of view about Jews. If they dont want to work, that does not gives a nation the right to kill them. And about Turks, just a few days back I read that about 60 thousand of them are Arbeitgeber for 300 thousand Germans.

And if it was a mistake of the politicians and the Industry to invite too many Ausländer, then the number of Ausländer must only be reduced legally. And not with the methods of Third Reich. If the politicians are selfish or idiots, that should not mean that the Ausländer must live with fear.

Bye.

"And I have info about him also from the father of my freundin who had to serve in 1944-45 in Czechoslovakia when he was
just 16."

It is too late. if you could get some info from, let's say, year 1924, it would be much more informative ;)

"Are you one of them?"

It's not for me to say, rather for others. How do you think *lol*?

"In such a case, Germany would cease to exist after it."

By which way? probably you can tell us so we all know?

"But the "verfolgung der Ausländer" would continue unabated and so many thousands would lose their lives if these Rechts
radikals have their way."

Why? I thought nobody said that foreigners need to be killed. all that was said - there are too many foreigners and Germany should stop to accept new ones. Tell me why an owner of a house can not decide whether he should invite guests or not, but should be made to accept guys who came themselves? i would say that those guys look pretty much like bandits then ...

and if "Rechts radikal" have their way, they will not kill foreigners, no, for what purpose? they will just deport them to their home countries regardless of their status here (temporary residence permit, permanent residence permit or german citizenship). not that i approve such things, of course.

btw such voices against foreigners are heard in the whole Europe by now, in Germany more quiet than in any other EU country. therefore i would not criticize Germany so much, it could be really worse ;)

"And anyway. The Polizei has got the info about the Spam."

So what? Tell us results of their job, if you happen to hear any. it will be very interesting for us all, i am sure

"I am strongly opoosed to your point of view about Jews. If they dont want to work, that does not gives a nation the right
to kill them. And about Turks, just a few days back I read that about 60 thousand of them are Arbeitgeber for 300 thousand
Germans."

Did i say anything about killing? i just was stating why people are not happy with foreigners, didn't i? but if you would like to know my opinion i will tell you - Jews have their country (Israel), they are no refugees, therefore their refugees' status should be taken back and then they should go to Israel, if their refuge status was only reason for their residence here.

With Russians it's another story, still i am strongly convinced that it will be better for them in Russia. See? i do not tell that they should be killed or even deported, no; just accordingly to my observations they are not very happy here themselves, therefore i just think that in Russia they could be happier. i will provide you just one argument here, but i guess it should convince anybody. you know that russians in EU want to make RUSSIAN political party - as a strictly national party (it will consists only of russians), which stays for RUSSIAN style of life, RUSSIAN interests and RUSSIAN values in this life? now tell me - who are the Nazi here?

Nothing can say about Turks though, or other nations *lol*

yup and please view what i have written just as my private opinion, because it's nothing more than that. also i would like to remind you that i am a foreigner as well - at least that is what is written in my documents ;)

"And if it was a mistake of the politicians and the Industry to invite too many Ausländer, then the number of Ausländer must
only be reduced legally."

"If the politicians are selfish or idiots, that should not mean that the Ausländer must live with fear."

Sure, here i completely agree with you. Mistakes should fall on the shoulders of those who are responsible. But why to invite more foreigners when they in reality are not needed? And considering Jews - well, you probably know what status of a refuge means: when reasons for that status are no longer present, it is just taken back, that's an international practice.

lol i will add something to this thema: you know, from 1913 till not so long ago (1980? not quite sure though) Germany had one law about citizenship, which during all years (after WWII as well) was changed only 3 times: one time in year 1933 and two times after WWII. Accordingly to that law, legitimate child received a father's citizenship, but regarding bastard it was said that he should acquire mother's citizenship. here is this part of law:

Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz.

Vom 22. Juli 1913.

Wir Wilhelm, von Gottes Gnaden Deutscher Kaiser, König von Preußen (which successfully ceased to exist as a result of A.Hitler's work - my comment) etc.
verordnen im Namen des Deutschen Reichs, nach erfolgter Zustimmung des Bundesrats und des Reichstags, was folgt:

§ 4.
[1] Durch die Geburt erwirbt das eheliche Kind eines Deutschen die Staatsangehörigkeit des Vaters, das uneheliche Kind eines Deutschen die Staatsangehörigkeit der Mutter.

Next it would be interesting to learn that both "parents" (mother i think was a Jew, those people are very good in hiding their true nationality including their identity documents) of A.Hitler died when he was young, and after that he just suddenly decided that his place is in Germany, and successfully arrived here without anything except himself and one bag.

how any german community reacts on a possibility of acquirement of a new citizen which does not have anything except himself, i think is known, it really did not change over the years *lol*

...

Trusday said,

"Next it would be interesting to learn that both "parents" (mother i think was a Jew, those people are very good in hiding their true nationality including their identity documents) of A.Hitler died when he was young, and after that he just suddenly decided that his place is in Germany, and successfully arrived here without anything except himself and one bag"

Well, from Austria to Germany is not a big step. So, I can understand that a person without much money etc. could very well survive and settle here. The Austrians are of the "Germanic race" as much as the Germans themselves. Hitler was born and brought up in Austria. He was a Corporal in WW One. And even received a Medal. So, if you want to compare Hitler's coming to Germany with any of us coming here, that would be a mistake. Do you know that there is a Recdht Radikal regierung in Austria? Do you know that the way German language spoken in Austria is very similar to that spoken in Bayern? Well, they are geographically connected. So, Austria and Germany are very very similar (if not the same) as far as the language and people are concerned. And it is historically known why the WW1 starter. Just because a Crown Prince was killed in erstwhile Yugoslavia. And then Germany was quick enough to jump into the War.


Trusday :
"Why? I thought nobody said that foreigners need to be killed. all that was said - there are too many foreigners and Germany should stop to accept new ones. Tell me why an owner of a house can not decide whether he should invite guests or not, but should be made to accept guys who came themselves? i would say that those guys look pretty much like bandits then ..."
Dont be such naive to believe that only legal measures are meant by the Recht Wing people. I would suggest you to just watch the way a few German politicians deliver their speech. With such anger and with shouting. It reminds me the way Hitler used to give speeches. As the laws become favourable to the Rechts, so would also the Recht wing people motivated to carry out attacks against Ausländer. And here, you, me, none of us came uninvited. And if we had been invited, then the there is no question of we being branded Bandits. Then also all the house owners, disco owners etc must accept us. Otherwise they should be sued for descrimination.

And in your previous post, I understood you to say that it is because of the Asyl ausländer that the problem is there. Man, not all Asylbewerber are Drogenhändler. If there is a problem there, it is for the German government to change/tighten the Asyl rules as being done by England. But once someone is legally here, he is part of the system. And then there has to be no descrimination. I am a prowd bewohner of a Stadt where people prevented last year a rally which the Rechts Radikals wanted to carry out. People just blocked the street so that the rally could not go ahead without violence.

That also means that there is a relatively small number of people who have rechts radikal tendencies. But then it does not take much to carry out subversive activities. Just consider how many terrorists are there in World. Not a big percentage of the whole population. But because of them, how much problem is there!! A lot. To do bad is always easy. That is the crux of the matter. It takes a few fish to make the pond dirty.

Trusday :
"It is too late. if you could get some info from, let's say, year 1924, it would be much more informative "

I dont know what exactly you would like to know. Please let me know. I would try.

Another thing : the formulae which was derived to destinguish between Germans and non-Germans was : you had to have at least 3 Grandparents pure German. Then you were accepted as a German. That is because one of Hitler's grandparents (I believe Mother) was a Jew. And not mother as you state.

Bye.

Oops,

"Then you were accepted as a German. That is because one of Hitler's grandparents (I believe Mother) was a Jew. And not mother as you state. "

Please read "...I believe grandmother......" That means Hitler's grandmother was a Jew. And no his mother.

"He was a Corporal in WW One. And even received a Medal."

Yes, but at the same time he refused to serve in austrian army because of his health conditions ...

"So, I can understand that a person without much money etc. could very well survive and settle here."

It is not a question of survival, no. anybody can very well survive and settle here. the thing is that man did not want to survive and settle in Austria, although Austrians are of the "Germanic race" as much as Germans themselves.

"So, if you want to compare Hitler's coming to Germany with any of us coming here, that would be a mistake."

Nope. No such thing was intended. I just wanted to point out that nothing happens in this world without a reason, as well as that there is no black and white in this world. so instead of judging Hitler as you were ("And (God forbid) if another fanatic like Hitler could kindle this undercurrent") i would try to understand why he did what he did.

And one more thing which i would like to point out here: any nation could do the same what germans have done, provided specific conditions are met. germans are not worse than any other nation, the fate just ruled so that it was them who was chosen to show the world the mistakes which were done by many nations, btw including USA as well (as well as russians were chosen to show the world what communism and "every homewife can rule a country" brings with itself - by the way, they would play germans role as well, if not for Hitler). This resulted in adoption of human rights, in freedom for colonies and in possiblity for you to come here as well, among other things. therefore i would never understand people who look at germans as on some sleeping monster; they are no better! judge noone and you will not be judged ;)

"Do you know that there is a Recdht Radikal regierung in Austria?"

so what? did they kill somebody?

If i were you, i would look more closely on Dutch and French - because those nations have least tolerance towards foreigners currently, and it is possible to understand them as well considering how many foreigners behave themselves there

"Dont be such naive to believe that only legal measures are meant by the Recht Wing people."

In every organism there is a head and there are muscles. and i would assure anybody that a head of "Recht Wing people" will not think about killing or torture of foreigners, just because it would not bring any good results to their nations. Hitler is no example here, he never really was accepted in german community ... but adoption of laws which would allow to deport foreigners easily and legaly, could be done by Recht Wing people

"I would suggest you to just watch the way a few German politicians deliver their speech. With such anger and with shouting. It reminds me the way Hitler used to give speeches."

so what? it's a standard technique, used by politicians around the world in order to gain support of people. would you like to tell me that Mr. Bush for example delivers his speech differently? Or Mr. Blair?

"And here, you, me, none of us came uninvited. And if we had been invited, then the there is no question of we being branded Bandits."

We did not, but it does not mean that Germany has to invite other foreigners. therefore i would say that GCs have to get a permanent residence permit through special regulation, but a possibility of a government to issue new regulations towards invitation of other foreigners has to be, if not taken away, but greatly reduced.

"Man, not all Asylbewerber are Drogenhändler."

sure, but a very large percentage of them are. tell me: how to distinguish a real refugee from a criminal? that's right - it is just not possible. i did not say that Asylbewerber are so big problem - the problem is in Asylum system and mechanisms, because it can be abused and constantly is abused. considering that you would like to live here, you would not want to get one true refugee and 9 "bad guys" from every 10 Asylbewerber, would you?

and there is also another thing about asylum: asylbewerber are welcomed into the country till the time when the country can accept them. if the country cannot, it can temporarily or permanently withdraw its signature under corresponding international agreement and that would be it. think about it in this way: you would help a beggar if you have extra money, but if you have money just for your survival you will not be able to help him even if you want

"Just consider how many terrorists are there in World. Not a big percentage of the whole population. But because of them, how much problem is there!! A lot. To do bad is always easy."

are the terrorists german *lol*? btw they are coming in Europe as Asylum seekers as well ;)

and the other thing is that i cannot blame those people as well, really. because even that relatively small number of them is there just because of Jews and USA which is controlled by Jews; they are basically fighting for the rights of their people, some want to unleash revenge for the deeds which Jews and USA have done to their families ... remove the egg (Israel) and there will be no terrorists ;)

you say that "To do bad is always easy", yes, the forces of destruction are far more powerful in this world. and, btw, to look on germans as on sleeping monster or "diseased nation" just because of WWII is a way of destruction as well ;)

"Please read "...I believe grandmother......" That means Hitler's grandmother was a Jew. And no his mother."

lol i would guess that his grandmother did not hide her true nationality while his mother did. anyway, the child in families with mixed nationalities may be an exact copy of just one of his parents

what is obvious is that the family had problems and constant stress with young Hitler, therefore they died young. such thing is usual when a family adopts a bastard who is born with different principles in life than those of his "parents" and who is mentally stronger than his "parents" ...



returning to Hitler, many ask a question now: from where did he have money, he didn't work? he himself explained it that merchants gave him credits, nobody believes that now, that merchants could be so dumb as to give money in credit to a man who did not have anything and did not work, therefore they think that he was sponsored by some merchants from the very beginning because they needed him and his party. is it really so? i would guess merchants did not care until they found out that they gave money to a person who has nothing and therefore are not going to get anything back unless his ideas turn out to be somewhat valuable ...

Trusday said,
"sure, but a very large percentage of them are. "

Wrong.

Anyway. I feel that there are difference of opinion between us. But that is ok. Sometimes I felt that you simply do not want to see the truth as it seems ( to me, that is). And you have given replies to my points. But in all, what message you want to convey, is not very clear. Just quoting my points and answering would not bring much, if there is no general meaning to your messages.

As for me, in short, the subject of this Thread boils down to this :
1. There have been millions of Spam mails sent with the schwerpunkt Ausländerfeindlichkeit.
2. This has been done (my understanding) because the Europawahl are nearing. They are on the coming Sunday.
3. The inclusion/non inclusion of Türkei is playing a role in these elections.
4. This is not the first time that the Rechts radikals have tried to do something in an organised manner.
5. Although anything large scale like the Third Reich is ruled out, but even Third Reich had roots in such small incidents. Everything started small and one day it was beyond control. The hot persuit of Jews fell on deaf ears. The "anschluss" of Austria went 'unnoticed'. (That means when the Austria was made part of the third reich). And so on and on........
6. It was shocking to see how polizei used illegal means to try to deport Kaplan (Caliph von Köln) even before the Zuwanderungsgesentz is in effect. Polizei wanted to forcibly deport him even without giving him a chance of filing a 'widerstand' in Court.
7. This all has a lot to do with the 'wirtschaftliche lage' in Deutschland. Exactly the same case as in around 1930. So the first targets are/will be the ausländer. As simple as that.
8. Germany is not America that it can start an Iraq war to divert the attention of the masses. Well, then something must be done. So, the organisations, parties and individuals are on a go at the moment.

Bye.

"1. There have been millions of Spam mails sent with the schwerpunkt Ausländerfeindlichkeit."

True. But come on, did it start only this week and are "Rechts radikals" the only ones in the effort to form public opinion in the way that foreigners are not needed here? i thought that CDU/CSU and even SPD participated in the same effort as well (here i do not mean spam mails, but another contribution) for about 1,5 years?

"2. This has been done (my understanding) because the Europawahl are nearing. They are on the coming Sunday."

Sure. Every PR-campaign is aimed on something. May I remind you that Kaplan (Caliph von Köln) started his PR-campaign also in the time convenient for him? all politicians use the same means ;)

"3. The inclusion/non inclusion of Türkei is playing a role in these elections."

I am sure that Türkei will not be included in EU. You see, politicians may be fools but not to that extent. Everybody understands: include Türkei and in 30 years Germany will become a new Türkei. Even if Germans were that fool, other EU countries would not allow them to make such a step.

"4. This is not the first time that the Rechts radikals have tried to do something in an organised manner."

Sure. Every political party makes everything in organized manner

"5. Although anything large scale like the Third Reich is ruled out, but even Third Reich had roots in such small incidents. Everything started small and one day it was beyond control."

Sure. But once again: if you think that you have right to judge Germans because of your suspicions, why then Germans
should not have right to deport people based on their suspicions and may i tell you that throwing accusations to a nation for the time long gone does nothing good to foreigners, but just provokes a nation to throw such foreigners out?

and once again: as far as i understood, nobody called for a mass deportation of foreigners yet. everything that was said till now is that Germany should stop to invite or accept more foreigners, asylum or no.

"The hot persuit of Jews fell on deaf ears."

I do not approve their killing, but i very well understand why they were pursuied. You can not rob people, even by legal means, and expect them to put up with that ;)

"6. It was shocking to see how polizei used illegal means to try to deport Kaplan (Caliph von Köln) even before the Zuwanderungsgesentz is in effect. Polizei wanted to forcibly deport him even without giving him a chance of filing a 'widerstand' in Court."

Why, they used perfectly legal means. And again i would understand them in this particular case, considering what Kaplan did here in Germany. This is what i call "used Asylum for their own purposes", it should not be allowed. Who continuously proclaimed here a war against non-muslims and called for violence, not him? now he can go to Türkei and try to do the same thing there, but i doubt he will, because otherwise Erdogan will have his head in no time

As for the hurry in which it was done, well, i do not approve that (and already have written this in another thread, btw, using Kaplan's case as an example), but i guess he insulted Germans so much that it's a wonder they did nothing to him yet.

And how immigration law can help Kaplan in particular, i am sure that the local immigration office in Köln will never give him another residence permit? and do you think that immigration law is intended to help foreigners? open your eyes, it is intended to reclaim some rights from foreigners and make their deportation much easier

And if talking about Kaplan, i can tell you that the government uses such guys as him in order to persuade natives that all foreigners are bad, therefore i do not understand why Turks still did not take care about him themselves

"7. This all has a lot to do with the 'wirtschaftliche lage' in Deutschland."

Mistake once more. 'wirtschaftliche lage' in Deutschland was not better 10 years ago (unemployment rate was even higher), but nobody cried about difficulties until last years, when EU was successfully formed ;)

"So the first targets are/will be the ausländer. As simple as that."

It may be so, just because it is easier to make them an "enemy". It's sad, but there is little justice in this world - as i said before, i guess that people here will not think who is a good foreigner and who is a bad one - if it comes to worst, all will be deported without courts of law and legal disputes.

"8. Germany is not America that it can start an Iraq war to divert the attention of the masses. Well, then something must be done. So, the organisations, parties and individuals are on a go at the moment."

:o But once again: what is better from your point of view? Deportation or a war? America kills people for nothing, maximal what Germans can do is deport them ...

Hi my friend.

So sad and disgusting to read. F..k anybody to have the spare time to write those words.

This thread was long enought to fill a couple of pages with what I feel, but overall is really concerning how did anybody get your (new) address.

A very good german friend could shortly define our situation: "The Germans had no problem in sixties and seventies when needed foreign handwork to clean the sewers and collect the garbace, but it´s so hard to accept foreigners comming to our country to work in the IT field, branch historically almost exclusive for Germans"

But the think who worries me a lot was the URL you posted. Those sh.. written in the page is signed, they freely gave their addresses and names. This means they have no fear on consequences because they are sure there´s a lot of people with similar ideas.

We have to be very awake from those signals because this has already happened, in more than one country and in any doubfull case, better to pick our lugagge, our notebooks, our families and fly away.

Regards

YO

PS: Spanish language is a little bit richer in expresion to those people oder?

YO,

I have to apologize to you and all in this forum. By introducing this topic, the conversation derived into analyzing the life and deeds of Hitler. Was not my intention, quite the opposite if I may say.

You are right, YO. Spanish is way richer in expressions, as I bet many a language in the world is. As a matter of fact, German is remarkably poor in nasty expressions, though there are some... I think the inflection on pronuntation does the trick in this case. I am tempted to post here more than a nice castellan curse, but it won't make sense.

I just wanted to put people aware. I want to believe this is just spam, and that this is just a small fraction of this country. Still, we have to be aware.

And also, is good to hear some friendly voices to prove we are not alone.

Cheers,

Sudaca.

Trusday My Friend,
Be careful what you are writing here.. I would like to ask
Mr. Detlef to moderate this thread. I am seeing here offending
comments about my country and my people relying on untrue
assumptions and information. I condemn Trusday for this words below.

"I am sure that Türkei will not be included in EU. You see, politicians may be fools but not to that extent. Everybody understands: include Türkei and in 30 years Germany will become a new Türkei. Even if Germans were that fool, other EU countries would not allow them to make such a step."

My friend, have you ever been to Turkey ? The Turks who are born and grown up here dont reflect the real Turkish people. The Turks here tend to be much more conservative then the ones in Turkey.

Do you want me to comment on your home-country? just tell me and I will do it. I am very well informed about the conditions of South American countries and India and any other GC originating country. My friend, I can assure you Turkey is much much better than any of those. If Romania, Bulgaria is becoming a member of EU, so why not Turkey ? Did you know that a lot of Russians and Romanians are coming to Turkey to work because we have better conditions.

and these ones:

"And if talking about Kaplan, i can tell you that the government uses such guys as him in order to persuade natives that all foreigners are bad, therefore i do not understand why Turks still did not take care about him themselves"

We have been requesting Kaplan for more than years. He is sentenced to lifetime prison in Turkey and he will enjoy it when he is back in Turkey but Germany first claimed that we had death-penalty in our laws so we "may" sentence him to death so they didnt give him back, now we have abolished the death-penalty but they still dont give him back so what can we do about him ? (there is no such torture and stuff waiting for him in Turkey, he will just stay in the prison like any other prisoner.. this has been also assured to Germany several times.. )
Turkey is a very secular country, my friend and we are proud of it. First inform yourself about Turkey then start to comment on it. Did you know that wearing head scarf for women officers is forbidden in government/official buildings ? Did you know that Turkey is the only "Islamic" country which has a national alcholic drink(Raki) and a beer consume amount comparable to Germany ?

Inform yourself first :
(this link is just a small amount info about the facts of Turkey)

http://www.orkun.org/question/

and then comment about it.

Regards

Lacrima

Hi friends,

if I may call you so? It has been a long time since I had the feeling that it is necessary to take part in a discussion, before it goes in a wrong direction.

Now it is the time, because it is not possible to explain history of a century in some sentences and easily one hurts another one, without meaning it. So please think twice, before you post a message, especially if you mention the name of a nation.

I hope you allow me to tell you something. You can have millions of people who are nice and doing their job and not one journalist will report something about them, but if he finds a dozen bad guys, he will surely report about them. And even if these handfull of people are only 1 or 2 percent of the whole population, or maybe 4 percent, if these guys are Germans, everybody thinks or fears, that Germany is on a bad way again.

We are not! I am a German and I am a part of the majority! And I welcome all of you and I am happy that I got the honour to meet some of you personally and that they call me a friend.

I can not imagine my home country without all the foreigners who came here and who are now my neighbours and colleagues, my business partners or my doctor (I go to a chinese doctor here in Berlin and she is fantastic!).

What did I want to say? Just do not talk about others in a way you would not accept for your self and again...

Welcome in Germany!

Detlef

Very well said!!!

I guess the topic went out of control with most of the people believing that the only reason they are having problems here is because of Turks! Turkey is quite a modern, industrailized country rich of history and most of them are well accepted in Germany.

Hi lacrima

"Do you want me to comment on your home-country? just tell me and I will do it. I am very well informed about the conditions of South American countries and India and any other GC originating country. My friend, I can assure you Turkey is much much better than any of those. If Romania, Bulgaria is becoming a member of EU, so why not Turkey ? Did you know that a lot of Russians and Romanians are coming to Turkey to work because we have better conditions."

Be careful when you dare to compare other countries with your country. Why dont you go and work in Turkey, if it is so good. Why are you crying here for GC.
So, if you are offended to hear someone compare your country.. then dont do it yourself.
take care and have nice day!!

Hi mailsuji;
First of all, I am not crying for GC because I already have one :-)
I am only gaining here international work experience and learning a new language which is very critical in my home country and want to take advantage of a law that exempts me from a long military service back in home, after 3 years of working abroad. My aim is to go back to my home-country and work there after this experience.

Second of all, I was not the person who started to pronounce a name of a nation. There were some untrue accusations/comments about my home-country so I have answered them. If I am offending you or any other person in that answer, I am ready to apologize but others(who start to pronounce a name of a nation) should be ready to apologize as well, because of their offending comments.

Have a nice day too !

Lacrima

hi lacrima,

I am not waiting for any apology here. I guess people should take care before writing such views here.
And it does not mean that if someone comments on your beautiful country you have to drag other people/countries here.

Please keep your personal views personal. It wont make your country great, if you start to assure other people here that your country is better than others. The best way will be to show your compassion and love for others and respect others and work hard to make your country better.

nice day!

Guys,

Make yourself sure about one thing.

Germany did not want to deliver "Kaplan" to Turkey since years despite all the requests. If they had done this before, we would have never seen such things which happened recently about him. But they did not do it for some reason.

To mailsuji:
I completely agree what Lacrima says about Turkey(this page) and the facts about the country. Reality bites my friend.

Here a few other shots from Turkey/Istanbul
http://www.muratnuman.com/eglence/istanbul_2004_II/index2.htm

hi,

I dont give a damn what lacrima says about turkey. but be careful, when you say it is much much better than others.

so keep cool.

Mailsuji,

I want to invite yourself to be more polite to other people here.

I wish you all the best and have a nice weekend.

Hi mailsuji,
Well, first offending comments(mentioning the name of the nation) were about the EU-Membership of my country, so I had to answer it by doing comparisons with other Member-Candidates and it was necessary to make my statements clearer and stronger. I am sorry, if that was offending though.. I accept that I was a bit angry when I wrote that answer.

Regards

Lacrima

PS: Please try to be a bit more polite..

Hey guys,
We are in Germany for different reasons. But in reality we are all equals: we are in a foreign country. Se we have to help one to each other and not to compare one to each other. Keep cool ;-).

Hello,
As a new user I start with a really dumb question: believe it or not but we didn't know about "Kindergeld" until last month when I found some info on the Internet. Of course we applied for it immediately, having two children living here in Germany (since late November 2003) with us. The payments have started already and it's a very good news. But we think it would make sense to try to apply for the money backwards, going back to Nevember 2003, when we settled here. Our "Arbeitsamt" replied "no" because you are Polish citizens=EU citizens so you can receive "Kindergeld" starting in May 2004 when your country joined EU. I emailed some other institution with the same question, since I read on this forum that not only EU citizens received "Kindergeld". Their answer was "no" - because you cannot apply for any social payments backwards. And now we are really puzzled... I'm determined to find an answer to our question.

Since I started reading your excellent forum some time ago I can see that in many situations it makes sense to ask many times for the same thing because some rules are not clear or simply not known to all people involved. Still, it's a nice change to be in this beautiful country after 11 years spent in America where nobody heard of "Kindergeld".

Did anybody experience the similar situation with "Kindergeld"? Thank you for your time.

Best greetings,

Zuzanna

Hi Zuzanna !

I had the same problem like you 2 years ago. But they gave me money for 6 months retroactively. I think that this depends by the province in which you are living. At that time I applied for kindergeld in Hessen.

Regards,
Marius

"I am seeing here offending comments about my country and my people relying on untrue assumptions and information. I
condemn Trusday for this words below."

?? :o what untrue assumptions and information? would you deny it that turkish family in average has more children than german or french or spanish family has? i mean it's obvious - with such difference in birth rate relative percentage of turkish population in Germany is going to increase, even without Turkey in EU. But if Turkey gets accepted in EU, it's going to be just what i said - probably not in 30 years, but does it really matter in how many years?

why do you condemn me for my words, did i say anything bad about Turkey or turkish nation? I guess i only said a fact of life - get Turkey in EU and in 30 years majority of population will not belong to natives, just because of natural reasons? as well as coming from assumption that politicians should firstly care about survival of their nation, told my opinion that Turkey will not be accepted in EU. What's wrong with my words here?

"My friend, have you ever been to Turkey ? The Turks who are born and grown up here dont reflect the real Turkish people."

lol btw from those YOUR words people CAN get a wrong impression that Turks who are born and grown up here are "good guys" while real Turkish people are "bad ones". look yourself on what you have written ;)

"Do you want me to comment on your home-country? just tell me and I will do it."

You will not be able to do it, just because i do not have one. and if you will comment on the country which is being considered as my home country by officials here, i can assure you that such comments will not touch me even in slightest ;)

"Did you know that a lot of Russians and Romanians are coming to Turkey to work because we have better conditions."

EU-BEWERBER, BIP pro Einwohner

Bulgarien 2130 EUR
Rumänien 2170 EUR
Türkei 2800 EUR

lol conditions are somewhat better, but a difference is not so great. i would guess those people come to Turkey mainly because they would like to see other culture, not because of economical conditions ;)

and regarding Kaplan, i guess i answered a post where it was said that German police should be condemned because they wanted to deport him without giving him a chance to "file a 'widerstand' in Court" so he could live here farther *lol*

"Their answer was "no" - because you cannot apply for any social payments backwards."

True. They do not have to pay a social payment backwards. however, they can do that, but it's not an obligation, rather sign of kindness and a matter of goodwill

Hi Lacrima,

You said:
"Turkey is a very secular country, my friend and we are proud of it. First inform yourself about Turkey then start to comment on it. Did you know that wearing head scarf for women officers is forbidden in government/official buildings ? Did you know that Turkey is the only "Islamic" country which has a national alcholic drink(Raki) and a beer consume amount comparable to Germany ?"

as far as I know, Malaysia has 60% Muslims and it forbids alcohol for them (yes, only for them). You can see women free with headscarves everywhere as well as they who don't. But the BIP is relative higher: 3.699 US-Dollar (2001). It's not 99% Muslims as in Turkey but they keep their religion as also respecting other religions and culture. They are also harsh to terrorism and throw them to jail as the British do it to the IRA extremists. And as far as I know, they are proud of it, without any needs to be proud to be European with beer and other things. In general, in East Asia people don't need to do it.

And the Prime Minister who brings Turkey to the new era: banishing death law, strong lobby to EU, and bringing your economy going up again, his wife wears also headscarf (I just read it in Stern magazine). Secularism as far as I know is not dictating what the people should do with their private things, but preventing any absolute religion intrepretation in public sphere.

Let's back to topic what Sudaca wrote in the beginning.

It's not only against Turkish, even to Indians. You see, in 2000 there was a political campaign: Kinder statt Inder. I'm not Indian but it has clearly attacked us. So no wonder, Sudaca. It was there from the very beginning...

Regards,
NN

Hallo esta/*,

Your remarks seem to be reasonable and responsible.

An Alle:
I strongly agree that due to the "wrong-doings" of some people(Like Hitler), a whole nation(s)(like in this Post, Germany) should not be put to the same category.

After 60 years, nation like US celebrating "D-day" (perhaps, for political reason to win support in coming election for Mr. Bush and to get new resolution in Iraq) in France, violating every human rights in Iraq and imposing Democracy(a name of system, which is losing the real meaning) in Middle-East(on behalf of a strong Lobby in US to gain Oil/Land).

Now, the question arises, why Past is remembered(60 years after as D-day). There must be millions of Germans, who too lost their life in WWII(Inspite of the fact that they had no influence over Hitler, even if some other Dictator would have lead them to the war). But, who remembers them and I believe that the whole nation should not be discriminated till today(as in this post). What about "japanese" who were bombed too???

Here, we remember past, but what about "PRESENT", where thousands of people have been killed(after sept 11) and does there any difference what Hitler did and what is happening in "Palestine".

Sorry, if I got aggressive about Mr. Bush(nothing to do with Americans) and his Policies towards Middle-East, which are taking the world to the brink of Democracy :-)

U.S created U.N after WWII and other institutes like IMF. But, who benefited from such institutions except few "Heavy-Weight".

The situation in Africa and in third world countries is not hidden.

Security Council is used to attack other nations, while allowing some countries to get control of every resource. Today, the shape of Democracy is seen as

1. Put "Sanctions",
2. Attack with Alliance(even if not succeeded thru Security Council)

Result:
millions of people are killed

So, then, why a particular nation is targeted. What if Hitler would have won the war?????????

Perhaps, then we would have heard of "Wars" using some other term than "Democracy".

An GCs:
As a GC, we were invited here to work on a limited basis. This was ofcourse a mutual agreement, which benefited both parties. Now, as, with new Immigration law, there seems to be extention in the Residence permit ahead, which has been discussed in this forum most of the times.

I thank Mr. Detlef for his efforts for this forum to allow myself to give a point of view about Germany and Germans.

I too came from a third world country as GC(not India or Russia), was accepted here, learned Language, working/living without any major problem. My collegues at work really helped me to learn this difficult language :-)

Ofcourse, you cannot find satisfaction in this world, if you run only for Material.

Hello Esta,
Good observations indeed.. so some corrections to your comments to avoid any misunderstaning.

"as far as I know, Malaysia has 60% Muslims and it forbids alcohol for them (yes, only for them). You can see women free with headscarves everywhere as well as they who don't."

Do you think it is a nice thing that a government dictates his Muslim population not to drink alcohol ? this is horrible.. thanks god, I am not in Malaysia as a Muslim.. You see.. it is dangerous
when government touches the areas of religion. Religion is smt between you and God (if you believe). I didnt say, in Turkey we are forbidding headscarves.. I said we are forbidding headscarves for women who want to work officially for government (as a teacher in public school, as an officer in a government agency.. etc..)
because in such a case, she is serving to public and she should not be carrying any religious symbols on her..(by the way, headscarf is not a must of the religion.. some people insistingly use it as a symbol..) would it be nice to see a teacher who is carrying a huge cross(or any other religous symbol) when he/she is teaching in a public school in Europe? the same thing..


"And the Prime Minister who brings Turkey to the new era: banishing death law, strong lobby to EU, and bringing your economy going up again, his wife wears also headscarf (I just read it in Stern magazine)."

Abolishment of "Death Penalty" was done by a left-wing government(2-3 years ago) and not by the current prime minister..
by the way, Current prime minister of Turkey got elected with only 30 percent of the votes of the population but he got more than 70 percent of the chairs in Parlement.. that is a loophole in our election system and he took advantage of it.. and his wife does wear headscarf (which most of Turks are not comfortable with)
but his wife is not a school teacher or government officer, is she ? :-)

and thanks for looking at the general picture with more objective eyes and not just blaming.. I must admit that you are very well informed.. that should be the prerequisite before commenting on smt..

Regards

Lacrima

Again perfect comments and 'facts'...
very clear, telling the truth only.

Congratulations Lacrima!

Hello everybody!
This is my first message here – so bare a little with me!
First – I am from Romania and I didn’t feel offended about what Lacrima said referring to my country

But I’m writing you because I really don’t understand why so many messages not related to the topic. Racist people are in every country – don’t tell me that is not true!
Normally – they are also in Germany. But I don’t care about them and their motivation.
I have something to give and I receive something for what I gave – as simple as that! Maybe the low (you know witch one) will not pase – and I can not stay longer in Germany! So what!? I have had a wonderful life experience, my daughter will learn Deutsch and I have something to remember when I will be old.
Life is a challenge – my friends – so just enjoy it! ;)

Hi Marius,
Thank you for answering my email. Your message gave us hope and, after calling Arbeitsamt again, we have already received a positive answer from them, with Kindergeld payments going backwards six months. It seems that there is no official cut off, it could go farther back, but it covers exactly my children stay here. And we live in Baden-Wuertemberg, if anybody ever uses this message in the future.
So thanks again,

best greetings,

Zuzanna

I would like to know whether kindergeld can be paid by calculating the number of years not been paid. That is to say if the Arbeitsamt cut one off because of permit and later the permit is given, they would pay for the number of months that they cut me off.

Thanks
koloz

Marius please throw more light on what I asked.