Hi Friends,

the next meeting of the 'Bundesrat', regarding the new Immigration Law, will be on the 16th of January.

High time for us to raise our voices! Fortunately a journalist of the most important German News Magazin is interested in this topic.

Now it is up to you, to do something for yourself. I need some of you and your stories, who are employed, but who already thaught about taking another job, in another country, because of the unsafe situation (if you can stay after the 5 years or not).

Please contact me via my private mail: dvh(at)trust7(dot)com

Best regards
Detlef

Ich weiss nur, dass es in Deutschland für einen Ausländer so gut wie unmöglich ist, eine Arbeitsstelle zu finden, obwohl dass er hier sein Studium absolviert hat. Warum investiert ihr dann so viel Geld für meine kostenlose Ausbildung? Warum soll ein ausländischer Studierender nach seinem Studium in die USA ziehen, um anerkannt zu werden? Warum soll das investierte Geld weggehen?
Deutschland muss weltoffener werden.

Hallo goga,

es ist für einen Absolventen ausländischer Abstammung durchaus möglich, in Deutschland einen Arbeitsplatz in der IT zu finden. Genau hierfür wurde das Greencard-Programm ja geschaffen. 13.000 erteilte Greencards sind der Beweis.

Davon abgesehen muss Migration gesteuert und auch begrenzt werden, darüber besteht wohl allgemein kein Zweifel. Es gibt politische Flüchtlinge, Spätaussiedler, Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge und natürlich auch die "Königsklasse" der Migranten: die hochqualifizierten Fachkräfte. Man kann nicht alle vier Gruppen uneingeschränkt zuwandern lassen, das würde die Aufnahmefähigkeit der Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft offensichtlich überfordern, da jeder neue Bürger u.a. auch eine Wohnung und einen Arbeitsplatz haben möchte.

Ich denke die Einigung auf ein Zuwanderungsgesetz wird dieses Jahr kommen, jedoch wenig spektakulär ausfallen und eher darauf abzielen, die schon hier wohnenden Ausländer (egal ob Spätaussiedler, Greencard oder Flüchtlinge) bestmöglich zu integrieren. Für großzügigere Regelungen wird die CDU/CSU nicht bereit sein und aus der der SPD sind sie nicht so wichtig wie andere, dringend notwendige Reformvorhaben. Zu groß ist der Druck aufgrund der schwierigen Arbeitsmarktlage und der EU-Osterweiterung, die Deutschland in den nächsten Jahren bereits für Millionen neuer hochqualifizierter Fachkräfte öffnet.

Marco

Hallo Detlef,

das muss wohl die Frau Journalistin vom Spiegel-Magazin sein? C.Schmidt, glaube ich? Sie hat in den letzten Tagen bei mir angerufen aber ich war nicht erreichbar.

Gruss,

James

Hallo Marco,

ich Stimme Deinem Beitrag nur teilweise zu. Der Begriff „Aufnahmefähigkeit“ wird oft von konservativen Kreisen missbraucht, der trifft aber auf qualifizierte Fachkräfte nicht zu, dessen Zuwanderung immer gut für eine Wirtschaft ist. Dies kann jedem Fachbuch über Volkswirtschaft entnommen werden. Die USA haben immer davon profitiert und so hat auch fast jedes Industrieland (außer Deutschland) eine Regelung, um diese Art von Zuwanderung zu fördern (es geht nicht nur um IT).

Die qualifizierte Zuwanderung regelt sich langfristig von selbst. Jemand der hochqualifiziert ist wird nur zum auswandern motiviert, wenn das Einwanderungsland die entsprechenden günstigen Bedingungen bietet, denn in den meisten Fällen hat er zu Hause bereits sehr gute Bedingungen. Dazu gehören nicht nur ausreichende Arbeitsplätze (er muss auch gegen Einheimischen konkurrieren und sich trotz Sprachbarrieren beweisen), sondern auch Sicherheit.

Die „Greencard“ war ein guter Anfang, hat aber sein Zweck nur bedingt erfüllt (nur 13000 von 22000 wurden vergeben), weil die Einschränkung auf 5 Jahre ein großer Unsicherheitsfaktor ist. Von der gefürchteten "Inderschwemme" war nie was zu spüren. Ohne Zuwanderungsgesetz werden andere Länder wie die USA, Kanada, Australien oder UK weiterhin das Rennen um die Hochqualifizierten gewinnen und teilweise auch von in Deutschland ausgebildeten Spezialisten profitieren.

Die EU-Osterweiterung wird meiner Meinung nach ebenfalls zu Unrecht als negativ für den Arbeitsmarkt verteufelt. Erstens wird es in Deutschland vorerst keinen freien Zugang zum Arbeitsmarkt für die neue Beitrittsländer geben (im Gegenteil wie z.B. UK oder Schweden). Und zweitens hat man in diesen Ländern jetzt schon Wachstumsraten von denen man in Deutschland nur träumen kann, Tendenz steigend. Sie bieten bereits jetzt sehr gute Möglichkeiten für Hochqualifizierte. Warum sollen sie also unbedingt nach Deutschland kommen wollen? Man muss sich endlich von diesem Mythos verabschieden, alle Hochqualifizierten der Welt würden gierig und mit gepackten Koffern auf jede kleinste Chance warten um nach Deutschland zu gehen. Übrigens, das Land, das letztes Jahr die meisten deutschen Einwanderer verzeichnete war Polen.

Hallo Daniel

I find your contribution to the the Immigration law debate very interesting and am supporting your stand.
My View is that the "Regierung" should not handle all Immigtarion groups (Hochqualifizierte, Politischefluchtlinge.. usw.) with the same priority. Its good that there are now new tax reforms which will probably bring impetus to the economy. These reforms should be supported by a strong Immigtaion law to attract highly qualified specialists who will help to create more jobs.
I dont see why we the new breed in the Germany Economy should fight for our status here after the Five years. Its the Government that should do so basing on what we have sofar contributed. Is there no statistics to show our contribution so far?
Well if, we cant be protected by the new Immigration Law, there are some countries which are now vying for us. Imagine the new Proposals in the US Immigation law!! The US now wants to offer legal status to even the unqualified undercover workers. You might say that this is a mere political move, but in the end it will add value to the economy.
The point system in the UK and Canada are other examples.
Germany should not decide on all sorts of immigrant groups at the same time. They should rather Prioritise and embrace all other groups in a step by step method.
I'm sure the Germany Economy needs us so the new law should support us rather than kicking us out.

Hi Daniel

Das Ziel des Deutschem GC-Programms war nicht eine bestimmte Quote Einwanderer nach Deutschland zu bringen, sondern angeblichen oder tatsächlichen Fachkräfte-Bedarf der Industrie zu decken. Der *Bedarf* war halt wesentlich kleiner als 20.000, wie sich schnell herausgestellt hat. Genauer: Der "Bedarf" ist weniger als ein Jahr nach Auflage des Programms derart stark eingebrochen, dass man mit Recht anzweifeln darf, ob die von der Industrie ursprünglich gemeldeten Bedarfszahlen (über 100.000) nicht reine Börsenphantasien waren.

Bei der Diskussionen von Arbeits-Migration wird oft übersehen, dass sehr unterschiedliche Vorstellungen von dem Begriff der "Hochqualifizierten" kursieren, und diese unterschiedlichen Begriffs-Interpretationen auch von manchen Ideologen sehr geschickt und manipulativ eingesetzt werden.

Wenn wir hier von einem internationalen Wettbewerb um die hochqualifizierten Fachkräfte sprechen, sollten wir nicht vergessen, dass es sich in den meisten Fällen schlichtweg um Absolventen von IT-Studiengängen, oft mit geringer Berufserfahrung und selten mit wirklich exotischen Spezialkentnissen handelt.

Es geht in der Praxis nicht um handverlesene, international gesuchte Spitzenkräfte mit Traumgehältern und Forscher mit Nobelpreispotential, sondern schlichtweg um durchschnittliche (!)Arbeitskräfte, wenn auch mit einem weit höheren Ausbildungsstand als Spargelstecher und Bauarbeiter.

Man sollte Arbeitsmigration nicht so leichtfertig glorifizieren. Wer glaubt, das Migration für alle betroffenen Wunder wirkt, sollte sich auch mal den realen Arbeitsmarkt in den US oder UK konkret anschauen. Ich sehe derzeit viele britische IT-Spezialisten, die als Wochenend-Pendler hier in München arbeiten, weil "daheim" der Arbeitsmarkt absolut platt ist, u.a. weil er trotz schwieriger Wirtschaftslage von Zuwanderern überlaufen wird.

Arbeits-Migration ist eben kein Selbstzweck und nicht per se erstrebenswert.

Marc

Hi Marc,

In consideration of other participants in this forum I now write my contribution in English. I am sorry having to say that your statement "...daheim" der Arbeitsmarkt absolut platt ist, u.a. weil er trotz schwieriger Wirtschaftslage von Zuwanderern überlaufen wird“ , pretty much sounds like that unqualified populist myth “Ausländer nehmen uns die Arbeitsplätze weg”.

First, the unemployment rate in the UK is about 45%(!) lower than in Germany by comparable GDP and inflation growth. The figures are similar in the USA. By the way both countries do have a policy encouraging qualified migration. Second, workers who take advantage of existing opportunities and work away from home are not an indicator of unemployment but of inefficiencies in the labour market. They will exist in any market condition, in gloomy and bloomy times. Another well known example is the significant amount of Germans who prefer to work in Switzerland and did so even in times the German labour market had an increased demand for workforce. After all going from Germany to Switzerland or the UK is not much different that between Munich and Frankfurt. Third, even if you know some qualified people who cannot find a job in the UK it is a very small sample to reach a conclusion, isn’t it? Remember that an economy with an unemployment rate of 2-3% is still considered to be at “full employment”

Your point about the GC just reinforces my statement, that qualified migration does regulate itself by the given market forces and is the best example that the fear of an “invasion” of foreign workforce in that sector is by no means justified. If there is no demand for foreign workforce, the supply will adjust itself without need of enforced regulation. Note that this is not necessary true in the case of unskilled workers, where the market is distorted by factors such as dumping wages, tax avoidance and social welfare of unemployed locals discouraging employment in the low-wage sector.

I neither glorified skilled migration nor earmarked it as wonder-making. I just said that it will always be beneficial for the economy. Even complex econometric models have attempted to quantify this, but there are more simple explanations. Two important factors for economic growth are human capital and per head GDP, both of which increase with skilled and decrease with unskilled population. Skilled and unskilled migration will have the corresponding effect.

Note that I am talking about skilled workforce (“durchchnittliche Arbeitskräfte”, as you said). The mentioned people you call “Nobelpreispotential” and “internationale Spitzenkräfte” are of course “nice to have” but they are a handful of unique cases, hardly able to move an economy on their own, and therefore less significant for this problematic. It is the population of skilled workforce what moves the economy, and not single top managers or scientists.

Hi Daniel,

like it or not - large scale migration and integration is going to happen within the EU for the next couple of years. Maybe Germany will introduce an additional migration scheme for non EU nationals - but I think it's unlikely to happen as there is no political or economical preassure to do so. Actually the opposite is the case: in the current economic climate it would be difficult to explain to the public, why in addition to the potential migrants from eastern Europe further migration should be tolerated, desired or even needed.

Regarding the German economy there are plenty of problems unrelated to migration, such as:
- burden of integration of East Germany
- high taxation
- excessive cost of the social welfare state
- high cost of labour
- over-regulation
- reluctant attitude towards technology, growth and progress
- general lack of vision and entrepreneurship

It's a fact that the UK it market is in a very bad state (for whatever reason that is) and a large number of UK specialists do actually offer their services in Europe - at prices below the local market levels obviously in order to offer an advantage in return for the lack of local language skills. I'm not making this up.

Regards

Marc

Hallo Daniel,

First of all, I appreciate your writings. But unfortunately I don't fully agree to what you have mentioned. In fact, I would rather URGE YOU, not to give false representation to all our GC community.

Unfortunately your findings about UK are not that correct. Are you aware, what it means by 45% unemployment? It simply means DISASTER !!! At this rate, the UK, would have become equal to any poor and starving country.

The FACT IS THAT; United Kingdom has the lowest unemployment rate in several decades. Its job market is very much attractive at the moment, especially for we English speaking community. (Well, its another factor, whether one wants to go there. I will personally not want to leave Germany to go to UK. no way!)

Just to throw some statistics: a poor country like Bangladesch has an unemployment rate of about 24%. An improved exmple is India, where it is about 18% (YOu know, India has over 1 billion population)!!

And you simply mentioned that UK has over 45% of unemployment. Simply going by logic also, no one can accept this! and any tom-dick and harry can go to Google and find out what is the unemployment rate of the UK.. (well, I did that too :-)
Check it out.. its an official UK site!:

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/stats/ungbtime.htm

So, kindly be little careful. That someone else can really cross check the figures sometimes!

As far as Germany is concerned, you take it from me, they will pass the law in favour of GCs (probably with conditions attached), but it will be positive for sure.

I have also heard (well, from a very reliable RATHAUS source), that the German Government will consider only German speaking GCs (they can not accept someone, who, after staying for 5 years, can not speak German... in a way, that proves the inability of the person anyway!). Another criteria is going to be that the person concerned, is required by his present company. If the company says, that they want to continue his services, then he will get that chance to stay here after the GC validity is over.

So guys, its going to happen.. though not very smooth sailing! We need work hard on the above two factors

So, lets be optismistic and deliver our best.

K.Rider

Hi, from my opinion with current immigration law, a GC could stay in Germany after 5 years. This is case-to-case basis if the company wants you and the arbeitsamt ppl allow you to work. This info was told by Arbeitsamt.

I dont see much different with the new immigration law to most of the GC.

DD

IMHO this is not much possible, the reason for limiting the stay 5 years for GCers is avoiding the GCers to get Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis because 1 day after 5 years stay you work and stay in germany, you have the right to apply for unlimited residency. And that is completely against the aim and reason of GC program.

When you go and ask, you always hear positive stories, but when you really face the situation, these positive stories are gone. Upcoming possible immigration may allow this also when the GC speaks and writes German language without problems.

K Rider - What Daniel actually meant (and wrote) was the unemployment figure in the UK is 45% *lower than* in Germany.

E.g. Germany: 10%
UK: 55% out of 10% = 5,5%

:-)

Anyway comparing the "official government" unemployment figures between any two countries is fairly meaningless, as each government has their own way of statistical manipulation. Here are some examples how the government is cheating the statistics here in Germany:

- one does not count as unemployed while sent to training by the Arbeitsamt.
- there is a new scheme for promoting the very low-end self-employment (called "Ich AG"). People who start under this program are low earners, receive benefits and are out of the unemployment statistics
- long term unemployed who are paid by the Sozialamt are not in the unemployed figures
- elderly unemployed over 60 (or maybe even 55?) are not in the unemployed figures

The real unemployment figure in Germany is probably more like 15-20%

In the UK the number of low-end part time jobs is much higher than in Germany, so there is 'hidden' unemployment in a sense that an ever decreasing number of people enjoys full time permanent work. You may have heared of the growing "working poor class"?

Marc

Hi pwehrli,

I heard cases where GC managed to change their GC to normal working permit (which supposely not possible). I heard GC VISA not allow to have own company but now having it possible.
I heard GC VISA could not study but ....cases proof was wrong.

GC program is a "rule" and not a "law". The new immigration is a law. Therefore rules can be changed easily.

Assume that you are a scientist in a very renounce firm and holding GC visa(5 years) and do you think this firm will not be able to get you a PR?

The "law" that will be taken effect (I hope) will be more clear that announce to world that Germany is open for immigration.

DD

nice to hear from K.Rider again, and i agree with him.
Basing on the information i have been able to manage from arbeitsamt etc, GCs wont be kicked out after 5 years.Definitely no one knows about 'PR', but after 5 years, it does not mean the end, extension will take place, no doubt about it.
ciao
GnR

Hi Marc,

Your point is valid that integration (and therefore some migration) will take place in the EU in the coming years, but actually, this is precisely the main reasons why the EU was created, isn’t it? To promote integration and to benefit from it in a common market. I just do not think that this will lead to mass-migration towards the “richest” countries as many might fear. I am still convinced that skilled migration is definitely beneficial for any economy and that it regulates by itself to achieve a balance among countries given by market forces of supply and demand. If this was the case, most of the qualified workers from Portugal or Greece would have emigrated in the past years to Germany, the UK or Sweden (just as examples of significant income differentials within the EU). By the way I found today an interesting article in the FTD about this topic:

http://www.ftd.de/pw/in/1073230763322.html?nv=hpm

Moreover, I fully agree with you on the point that it would be difficult for any politician to justify to the public, why qualified migration is beneficial. After all, politicians are at first interested in their own goals, and using populist arguments putting migration against employment is probably the easiest and cheapest way to get votes, even if they know those arguments are wrong. But the wide mass of population simply assumes the easy formula “more immigrants = less jobs for locals” without considering the overall context.

You are also right asserting that unemployment statistics can be (and are) manipulated, but this probably would not lead to such enormous biases. To my knowledge, in economics only unemployed people ABLE and WILLING to work (i.e. actively seeking jobs) are considered to calculate the unemployment rate, this practice is used in most countries. That is the reason why in Germany elderly people, people supported by the Sozialamt and people in training programs are not counted (the same would apply for housewives, students or disabled people). On the other hand people receiving unemployment support, but are not really willing to work and knowingly dismiss jobs, do count. To what extent these groups are or not really “able and willing” to work is questionable and this is where manipulation potential exists, but as I said before, this is a general economic definition and not only applied in Germany. Seasonal adjustments also need to be considered (“Saison bereinigt”). Anyway one can see why the unemployment rate is difficult to be accurately and objectively calculated.

Many thanks for clarifying K.Rider´s misunderstanding and concern the UK would be collapsing with the highest unemployment ever experienced in history :-). The figures I obtained are 9.1% for Germany and 5.1% for the UK (source Bloomberg)

Regards

"...But the wide mass of population simply assumes the easy formula “more immigrants = less jobs for locals” without considering the overall context..."

I people are not stupid. What Joe Public can sense here is the fact that while job migration may lead to some generalised overall advantage which then benefits everyone, there will be some individuals getting under preassure for keeping their jobs or maintaining their salary levels and life-style.

Really this applies not only to migration but to all kind of change in society and economy.

In case of job migration those who promote the idea are often the beneficials as they nicely enjoy job safety for themselfes: political, econimical and intellectual leaders, teachers, employers and last but not least the potential migrants.

Those who object job migration are often working class people, unemployed, trade union representatives - those who fear for their own jobs. And in a way they are right, as migration has been used in the past and will be used again in the future in order to create a higher supply of job seekers, drive down wages and leave some unlucky ones without job in the end.

In short: the positive effects of job migration are globalised, the negative effects are personalised.

I think it would be much nicer if talented and ambitious people would not *need to* migrate in order to work in the profession of their choice.

Hallo zusammen!!
Gibt es neues über zuvanderungsgesetz??
danke

hi everybody..
my name is Daniel .. i live in Argentina...
i ve been studied electronic enginnier for two years...
now... i ve been looking for a new place to live.. i dont know what will be my last destination
perhaps france or germany..
i need to know if someone could brief me in order to know about how to get a job in germany and if it possible to finish my carrier there...
if somebody what to get in touch with me .. my email is ms_dos_6@hotmail.com
and.. if are there someone which can speak in spanish it would be better...by the moment i m not fluency speaking english..
thank a lot..
Daniel