I am going to tell you all a little story.

I had a friend sometimes. Every time when I (or someone from our college-team) wanted to say what I think and feel - honestly, there was a guy who was always trying to prove that his point of view was more logical, more better, more perfect than everyone else's. Every time when someone was trying to pursuade him that his oppinion is wrong, that someone went out of that conversaton hurted.

He always understood the world completely different from all of us. Even when he knew that he was wrong, he was against us all. Just to be the opposition. Sometimes he provocated an argue, and then he stood back and enjoyed his clever "I knew it!" attitude.

To cut the story short, this guy ended up selling donuts. On every generation meeting he was the main guy - the show man. We all knew that and everyone of us just hated sharing that same table with such a person, but then, we all did, because he was always coming on our annual meetings just to "show" us. At the end, he was selling donuts and because of that he had the right to be the prettiest, the smartest, the loudest, the BIG SHOT! We were all "only" engineers, doctors, professors that anyway do not know anything about "real life" and for God's sake, he is the one "with the life experiance and wisdom" and therefore his "street knowledge" might be usefull to some of us sometimes.

But when the show was over, he was just an ordinary guy with rethoric that hurts, but do not have the strength of an arguments.

Marc has the right to have his own oppinion. Of course... I respect that. But he is wrong. Not even a single word that he speaks is on the spot and I do not want to argue with such a person, because I am not a little kid whose favorite toy was taken by some little girl and now the mummy must come to sort things out.

So people - I didn't leave the site. I just moved myself to a chat topic that I set up and in the future I will be there awaiting for a German conversation with JODDY for example. :-)))

Marc, are you in the mood to join us in German? I will be happy to see you writing there.

Detlev, I do not want to open my company. Even if I do, that will be something that has nothing to do with Engineering. I will probably open a little French-like Cafeteria where I am going to sit every morning, drink my cofee and read my favorite newspaper. From time to time I like donuts with Capuccino.

Maybe I will employ someone who makes "the best" donuts in the world and who will "show everyone" that making donuts is really "an art" comparing to everything what we do here.

Just kidding (about donut part in last sentence, of course :-)).

Best regards.

D.

Hi, Dejan!

I can imagine that you are really annoyed at the practise of the greencard-Regulation. So am I. Let`s hope there will be better laws in future...

It is clear, that you try to find a way which would guarantee you a real perspective and above all certainty.

But it is scarcely possible for you to get another working and residence license.

That your friend got apparently better permits has something to do with the international structure/orientation of his company.

I guess, your friend´s company is rather big.

There are three possibilities for the company to apply for "normal high skilled expert-permits" on a two years basis (which can be extended):

1. the headquarters of the company is in the home country of the expert and the company want the expert to work in the German branch, ´cause he has special for the company very important skills.

2. the expert is employee in an international group or company (abroad) and his work is very important for the high production quality. He can come to the German branch as an expatriate.

3. the company can prove that there is a "public interest" in the employment of the expert because of his knowledge. (usually international companys)

Anyway, all those cases are very special and only your company can apply for it.

Your friend might have been lucky...

I also have a request, Dejan, you wrote that you don`t want to talk about your experience "on the job" and "at the start" ... But I would like to know some details about that...so I`d be very pleased if you will write an e-mail: j.weissenberg@t-online.de

Regards

Jens

Welcome to Germany!!! Yes you are a foreigner and they treat you like it. You are beneath them. You are here to work because obviously you are desperate. I am from Australia where I have left family, nice people, great weather, a beautiful enviornment, money, future, etc etc etc to come to place where I am treated by the authorities like I am a burden on society and that they are doing ME a favour. I came here just for a cultural experience and to really learn about this country so I am in a different situation to you however many things changed whilst I was here....and now I can't wait to get out.

Essentially you have been fucked over by this Green Card program not unlike so many others. After working here for a year of so I had the opportunity to start a business here with some others until I found out that unless I was employing more than several people and bringing in lots of money, I would have been booted out. So I have halted my plans for the concept here in Germany and I am taking it to the UK. Just what a struggling Germany needs. Even if I created 5 jobs and could support myself then why not let me stay? Germany needs jobs......

This green card program is a serious exploitation of foreigners. The powers that be here in Germany give you virtually no info on it at the when you apply and they expect you to know the rules and regulations as if they were taught to you at school. Why do they not give you any information on the program when you come here? Because they have the attitude "Come to our country, pay full tax and social security but don't expect anything for it because we will kick you out before you are entitled to it". Does that seem fair to you? Why don't they give us all of the rules of this program when we apply? Because it is not a good deal. Who would agree to this otherwise? If a private enterprises did that here in Germany then the unions would come down on them like a ton of bricks but because we are sucker foreigners and we are dealing with the government, they get away with it.

As a foreigner I seem to attract more foreigners as friends so it is strange how every one I know who is not German (and even some germans) can not wait to get out of this place. That is no exaggeration. It is because this is not a good place for foreigners. It is said that Germany is a multi cultural society which it is but the foreigners will never be seen as being German.

Unless you are like I was and are just looking for the cultural experience I would not recommend Germany to anyone wishing to come here and if they still want to, just use it as a stepping stone to something better. I would say go to the UK or some other place where you will be treated as an equal instead of a "foreigner". This is a real sad situation but there is probably no way around it.

Anyway, I am off to the UK soon where I have been welcomed by the authorities. I am sad to leave but at the same time I am looking forward to earning a lot more money, being treated like an equal and getting away from the German regulations.

Good luck

Bob "sour grapes" Creasote

This company story is pretty demotivating for me because I am planning to start a company by the end of next when my contract with your current employee expires.

How did you start the company here ? With or without German shareholders ?

I am alone and I wonder if this would be a problem.

Atreides,

Like I said, you are being fucked over by this program but it is possible. Yes, the guys I were teaming up were Germans but that makes no difference. You need to have a serious business plan and some seriously good projections for your business to make it work. Just don't expect it to be easy as it is a case by case situation. There is some bullshit article that Deltef or some other moderator probably wrote on this site in the success stories section.

Business plans are serious work if you do them properly. Can you speak excellent German? Because you will need that too because civil servants as a general rule are too stupid to speak English (or just plain can't be arsed). Back in the days when I couldn't speak a word of German (thankfully, now is not such a problem) I had one lady from the Foreigners Office tell me that English is not allowed to be spoken there! The agression that she used in the tone of her voice is hard to forget.

Remember you are a foreigner in this land and you allowed to stay for one reason, and that is for the good of the land. Read through these forums for a start and see how others have been treated. Some of the stories have made me cringe with disbelief. I actually have a bangladeshi working for me and he told me that it is not far from the truth. I am just lucky that I look like a German so I don't get any grief. I have never seen racism from the authories like I have here in Germany. It is clear from these forums that Germany is not a country for foreigners.

cheers

Bob

Hi Bob,

nice to have a guy from 'Down Under' here. Unfortunately I can not say that your critic is wrong and yes, I am a German and many times I am dreaming of living in another country, like New Zealand where I have been several times and where I met very nice people. They are more open for other people from different nations than we, the Germans, are. And I remember the last Olympic Games in your country, fantastic! I do not think that we can have something comparable here in Germany, but we have some good things here, too. Nice people, not so nice people, clever guys and stupid guys, like everywhere.

And we have a 'Sprichwort' saying: Wie man in den Wald hinein ruft so schallt es heraus!

This means something like: The way you behave, polite or rude, the way you will get it back.

Sorry, but I do not know the right words in English, but I guess you will get it.

I guess some of your problems are caused by yourself, if you speak like you write here in this forum. Beeing polite can open many doors, beeing rude can close them.

The success story comes from an Indian friend and I know a handful other GCs who had been successful in starting their own business. You are right, this is not easy, but it is possible.

This is quite a long message for me. Take it or leave it ;-)

Viele Grüsse aus Berlin
Detlef

Bob.

I am not sure yet if Germany is the absolute place for foreigners or not..

but one thing I feel frm us msgs is that Germany is definitely not the place for U..

I would suggest that U move on to UK asap and not waste even 1 single moment of Ur life here in Germany.. where U just find problems...

I use to live in UK before moving to Germany... UK is also not that rosy for foreigners Bob.. to put across my point well enuf, here is a small example, there is no unemployment-insurance for foreign workers working in UK.. if one looses his/her job in UK, U have no option to get any support from the government whilst U r looking for another job...

Germany on the other hand gives U an equal oppportunity by giving enuf time and unemployment money in order to support U in ur hard times...

I m not saying that Germany is better than UK.. or vice-versa.. I guess each place is unique in its culture and offerings.. so it might be worth thinking that is it the country which is bothering U or Ur own attitude..

cheers and have a nice week
Nitin

Hello greens,

It is completely nonsense for me to discuss if Germany is the right place for immigration or living as an expatriate. I am here and any effort for relocation ( e.g. UK or US ) is loss of time. That is how I see it. ( This is completely a personal view )

Additionally, I believe there are not many options for an IT expert.For example I would never go to UK or Norway to start an IT company. While it is not easy here in south Bayern, I believe the mountains, Munich, short trips to Italy and Austria are pretty nice. US is far and other developed countries are too cloudy to spend the rest of my life.

My current bottleneck seems like lack of German and lack of information regarding to the general start up procedures.

I would like to invite all greencarders who have running start ups to share their experiences, because it looks like there is nobody who can help us in these issues except each other.

I am located near Munich and would also enjoy to discuss such issues with some beer if anybody is interested in a gathering.

Regards,

Hi all,

Nitin malhotra is absolutely right. It is better to search for a place where you find the best and likely to live environment. Basically it is difficult to choose a place at the first instance and I think you will have to see & experience on your own rather than asking your friends. I do strongly believe that their are negative and positive aspects behind this green card program but I think it is a great opportunity one can take to learn german culture and its people. And my experience tells that Germany is economically strong standing in 3rd position throught out the world so there must be land of oppotunities here and it needs patience & time for being successful therefore luck plays a big role. Who cares how ur german neighbour behaves if he give respect then I 2 will do otherwise IGAL. so everything is up to you, be more selfish for these kind of things and you will achieve grt things.

one example,
recently there was a land of opportunity for me in my company to earn more money for participating in third level support. But my team leader had broken everything coming to me I don't know why but he made himself through and now he is earning it. So I thought myself when you land in a foriegn country do not expect more just get what is coming to you.

ciao,
Nitin

Holding my breath here

Hi Dejan,

I hope that I can make you feel better a little bit. The reason for extending the Green Card sheme is the following:

Originally the new Immigration Law should replace the Green Card sheme. The new law was expected for the 1st of January 2003, therefore the Green Card should have been finished at the end of July this year. Because the new law was stopped by the 'Bundesverfassungsgericht' our government has to do something. There was no chance of an agreement with the oppostion parties CDU and CSU and without them no new law has a chance, because the opposition has the majority in the 'Bundesrat'.

The government act very clever, they just extended the Green Card sheme. Therefore they did not need the opposition and now it is easier to discuss the new law, because of this strategic trick, there is not such a big time pressure on the deal in the 'Vermittlungsausschuss' of the Bundesrat.

I know, this sounds very complicated and it is complecated. At the moment we have the strange situation, that we have a government with the majority in the Bundestag, but they can not govern our country, because the opposition parties have the majority in the Bundesrat. In our 'link section' we have some links to official websites in English, which make it easier to understand the German system.

Back to your situation and the situation of all GCs. I think we will get the new Immigration Law, because the big companies want it, the BDI (Bundesverband der Industrie) and many other organisations with big political influence. Even the politicians know, that we need you and the other experts. Germany is in a difficult situation and it would be absolutely stupid and deathly for our economy, if we would cick people out who already integrated in our social system, who learned our language, more or less, and who are needed by the companies where they work.

So relax. In about 4 weeks we will know more. That's the time when the 'Vermittlungsausschuss' will announce his decision. Even in the 'Most worth case', there are some possibilities.

If your 5 years are over and you still want to stay in this crazy country Germany, I hope you will ;-) your company can apply for an extension of your work permit, because they can not find somebody else, who can fulfill your position. And even with our old law, you can apply for a permanent residence permit after working here for 7 or 8 (I am not sure) years.

So be self-confident! If you are good in your job, an expert, than we, the Germans, need you more than you need us!

Good night
Detlef

I am coming back to this forum after some weeks, and I am so happy to see the posts of the last days! Looks like now I am not the only one writing long posts!! ;-)

Dejan, I just wanted to say how moved I was from your last post. Man, you are so right! Your enumeration of the things we've left and we've brought made me think in so many aspects; allow me to say, the "grave of our ancestors" line... never thought on that definition before, and is right on the key...

As most of you already know here, I come from Sudamerica; our countries were built by guys that left their ancestors behind, those silent graves, those noisy south-italian villages, the mist of the Basque hills, the Piedmont Valdense reducts, the winds of Galicia, for pursuing a dream. They even saw their ancestral family names changed (for example, all "yugoslavs" saw their "-ic" names changed to "-ich", to fit the spanish pronunciation).

They built countries, in a real, profund way. In times in which so much is discussed about violent "nation building" experiments, it is good to remember the immigration experience at the begining of the XX century. People fleeing from wars and starvation, looking to make "America" ("make the America" was a synonim of "becoming rich" in many european languages not so far ago...)

Yes, we also had destruction and killings, millions of native americans and big civilizations were destroyed, millons of africans came as slaves. But then, not that far ago, again the europeans were coming to our lands. And they were received as friends, and they helped building nations.

Could it be possible, now, the other way of this tide? I sincerely hope so: our sons will inherit whatever we build now, and everyone here, Germans or newcomers, will be responsable for that.

Dejan, thank you for your post, again!

Have a nice day,

Diego aka Sudaca.

Hi Sudaca!

It is soooo good to have you back :-)

Have a nice weekend
Detlef

Dear bitter Bob Creasote,

Your very own home country, Australia is shutting its doors for foreign IT specialists altogether:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/employment/0,39020648,39117861,00.htm

In the US and in the UK discussion on issuing visas did begin recently and limitations where imposed. It just not fair to say Germany treats IT specialits any worse than other developed countries.

Unlike many others here, English is probably your first native language? Why where you unable to get all the information you wanted before moving here? Even the authorities (e.g. Arbeitsamt online) publish Green Card related information in plain English.

@dejand

"We are giving the best that we have - our minds, our skills, our knowledge accumulated with the hard work over the years...
We bring enthusiasm, strength, the new way of thinking...we bring the love and respect towards Germany and german people. ..."

You pretty much expressed, how immigration and integration should work in an ideal world. One point you're missing is, when the GC scheme was started this happened on the grounds of the industry calling for IT specialists who had specific skills which were said to be in short demand. At no time, there was an agreement accross political parties, interest groups and German society, that immigration in general was wanted and needed. Right from the start, the GC scheme was just a way to supply staff to (mostly) dot-com companies.


"We bring money also, because we are paying everything that germans are paying (tax, social security, pensions, unemployment ensurance, law ensurance, etc.)...."

Well... this is not entirely true, as the money you "bring" has been earned here in the first place. If someone else whould do your job, maybe that person would "bring" i.e. earn even more money?

Regards

Marc

Hello Dejan,

I would like to strongly advise you to review your 'self conscious' outlook on how the job market, employment in general and employer-employee relationships actually work - everywhere in the world.

Today employers consider their employees as a (human) resource, a cost factor and a commodity good. Companys do _not_ feel the need to provide prospective employees with a long term perspective, stability and life long job security. This has been the case in the past, but those days are over.

You complain about what might happen 2 1/2 years in the future due to the uncertainty of the new German immigration law. Think about what would actually happen if you became unemployed tomorrow: In Germany with German GC, in the US with H1-B, in the UK with FTV. Then think again, which country provides decent levels of security and stability to the people living in that country - regardless of their origin.

You can stomp up lound and shout "Germany is not good enough for me and my extraordinary skills because I want more security and long term perspective". Really you're just making a fool of yourself, as 90% of the worlds population dream of planning two years ahead - they live from day to day and every disease, every accident, every winter and every day without a fridge in the kitchen and without a supermarket in their village is a challence for their lives.

You're from an Eastern European country - right? Please think about the day to day standard of living in your home country, before demanding more stability and security elsewhere.

Regards

Marc

Hallo Mark,

Thanks for your answers. You are absolutely right. I must learn a lot more before I get myself more deep involved in discussion about this topic.

Nice Evening to you all. It was a great experiance being here.

Dejan

Hi Marc-OS.

Marc-OS >> "You pretty much expressed, how immigration and integration should work in an ideal world. One point you're missing is, when the GC scheme was started this happened on the grounds of the industry calling for IT specialists who had specific skills which were said to be in short demand. At no time, there was an agreement accross political parties, interest groups and German society, that immigration in general was wanted and needed. Right from the start, the GC scheme was just a way to supply staff to (mostly) dot-com companies.
"

this is a two fold relationship where Germany gets highly skilled people, which germany isnt able to produce in its own capabilities.. and where Germany gets these skills without having put even a single cent in educating these skilled GC's, without having put even a single cent in the social system/administration/infrastructure of the country where these GC's come from.. not to forget that German government is putting billions of dollars in the education/social system of germany just to educate and get the new generation upto that standard.. in contrast to getting these skills without having to invest any money in these soo called GC's

and in turn, GC's get a democratic/relaxed/organized/safer/beautiful German to live..


"We bring money also, because we are paying everything that germans are paying (tax, social security, pensions, unemployment ensurance, law ensurance, etc.)...."

Marc-OS >> Well... this is not entirely true, as the money you "bring" has been earned here in the first place. If someone else whould do your job, maybe that person would "bring" i.e. earn even more money?

Nitin Malhotra >> Dont forget that This "someone else" would again be another GC. not a german. Because if there was any German to fill in this job, then no GC would have been recruited to fill in this jobs.

Nitin

Marc, where have you been all this time?

After all this time of silence, what is indeed moving you to write? My main question is: do you have something TO SAY, rather than arguing AGAINST the things people post here? I just don't remember ANY post from your part in which you presented your ideas, your original beliefs, your thoughts, your reflexions. Until now, all we have received from your part is confused rethoric around a dated leitmotiv: why Germany doesn't need immigration. Note the "doesn't": your arguments have always been on the negative, never on the positive.

After a long parenthesis of silence, well, I was at least intrigued to see what "MarcOS" was posting. And here is what I find: the same old sophisms, the same old approach "I have the truth in my hands", the same old disdain for any other kind of opinions. But indeed, nothing, nothing new. At this point, it is pretty clear then that you will never post an original approach, but rather stick to the old street-fighter discipline: let the other make the move, and I will counter that move with all my arsenal.

Therefore, I feel I need to ask you, Marc: what is indeed your opinion on the subject? I mean, not your counter-opinions, but your vision of the situation. You may say "hey, it is clear I am against immigration", but if it is not too much to ask, could you elaborate a little bit, this time based on your positive beliefs and not in the systematic denigration of other posts here?

In any case, this discussion around immigration allows two approaches: the pragmatic, immediate one, and the long, social, demographical, historical analysis. If we target the immediate, say, the next 100 years, it is clear that in one way or another, Europe needs immigration.

But Marc... if we target the long run one, well, this has leaded Europe - and indeed Germany, in dramatical proportions - many times to the abyss of self-denying. Europe HAS been land of immigrations from the dawn of manhood. This piece of land you call Germany was a corridor for uncountable waves. Before the "modern" germans with this marvelous language you are so proud of, the Romans were here, right? And before them, a myriad of Celtic tribes. And before, and before, through the Neanderthalers and back...

As you surely now, the "germans", those tribes speaking more or less a similar language (think on the Ulfilas Bible), in fact INVADED this land, and not that slowly, pushing the border to the Rhine-Donau line, and then south and south. But in any case: when would you trace the line and say "whoever is in, is German, whoever is out, is auslender? On the 2nd century before Christ? On the fourth after? After Charlemagne? After Barbarossa? After Luther? After Friedrich the Great? After Napoleon? After Bismark? After the 3rd. Reich? After Brandt? After Gorbachev?

In conclusion: personally, I think the discussion "who was here first" takes you nowhere but to an abyss, whether this is in Palestina or in Western Europe. This is what I think, but perhaps it's because I come from South America, where the native population was humilliated in one of the hugest massacres ever by europeans, the same that brought enslaved africans... and still was more or less ready to give it another try on the begining of the XX century. In any case, I cannot help the strongest skepticism grow strong within myself whenever anyone speaks of "I was here first, this is my land". But this is me.

What do you think, Marc? Can you define exactly what is your position?

Otherwise, from your negative posts, one may be forced to think that you really believe in Germania as a static, eternal, natural consequence of history, the crossing point of linguistic supremacy and necessary lebensraum.

Is that true?

Have a nice day,

Diego aka Sudaca.

PS: sorry, looks I am back in shape with the longitude of my posts!

PSS: hey, Dejan, don't go: you DO belong here. You certainly belong to this Forum.

Dear Friends ,

We need everyone in the forum .. We need Dejan .. We need Marc. Its wonderful to have such learned freinds who are here to educate and clear the doubts.

Lets not fight .. not argue ..lets not put anyone down. Lets not talk negative about Countries too..

Lets help each other!!!!

Regards

Mani

Hello Everyone and Marc.

All of Marc's point r correct except that he was a lil harsh on Dejan. that is the only point why I wrote counter responses to his messages..

friend Marc is absolutely correct in whatever he is writing.. just take a step back and analyse what he is saying. I dont see anything wront in his points...

mani is right.. our aim is not to argue and fight over here.. but to find to wish for a mutual solution to this problem...

best of luk to all of us
Nitin Malhotra