Hallo
I required help to know abt Arbeitszeugnis. Are there any specific rules about what should be written down in an Arbeitszeugnis. My old employer is upset that I left his company and has written an 3 to 4 line Arbeitszeugnis. My Zeugnis states I started to work with him in Jan 2001 till Dec 2004. I worked in Oracle and Delphi and Since my contract came to end I left the company.

I have a problem. I can never present such a Zeugnis to any potential employer. Can anybody guide me as to what I should do.

Regards and Thanks.
Amol.

Well with my personal experience no professional person will care for such documents. Even if somebody asks for it then u can always make lame excuses on it.

But still I do not see any problem in the lines which u have posted. Is there someting else too apart from that.

Hi Amol

I´m not an specialist, but as far as I know here in Germany is expressely forbiden any former employer give you bad references in the Zeugnis.

BUT I´ve heard there is a kind of "secret code" between employers who let another employers "read between the lines" to know how was the employer in the old employ.

One of the golden rules is if nothing good is written, then is bad references for the new employer.

I think your former employer must read anything like "xxxx Delphi good or very good" and xxx Oracle xxx excelent or at least satisfactory. Otherwise is not good references.

But please, just only theory. Nothing concrete, maybe somebody can help you better than me

Regards

YO

Hi Amol,

I got quite the same Zeugniss from my first job in Germany and I always thought that it was ok until I presented it during an interview.
Then the boss interviewing me told me that it was a bad one: quite nothing said in it, means "he did nothing good, but he was there for sure" and he told me, like YO said, that there was some hidden things in a Zeugniss that people can't even imagine, an example he gave me was "was excellent in working alone on tasks", means "was not able to really work on team and to accomodate with the others". Who would have guessed that ? :-)

IMHO, you should ask for another Zeugniss from your company and like my former company did, ask them to read it before getting the final version from them.

D.

Hi Amol,

Better take testimonials from your old employer(like those who are very close to you in a Higer position... Project Manager or Project Leader). Testimonial means a kind of conduct and their opinion on your work etc. Normally no one will write bad words on their employee even if they leaves the company. Every company will maintain a friendly relation with their employees even if they leave the company. Your old employer looks very strange..

BTW., Y don't we start such kind of companies in a BLACK LISTED companies, if your cause is correct!

VSK

With my past experiences such things generally happens in small companies where ur boss is everything. Anything said by u or done by u during leaving the company is directly taken by him/her as a prestige issues which results in such 'very emotional Arbeitszeugnis' ;).

But in larger and more professional organizations no one really cares for that and generally they use a same pre drafted letter for everyone.

GewO § 109 Zeugnis

(1) Der Arbeitnehmer hat bei Beendigung eines Arbeitsverhältnisses Anspruch auf ein schriftliches Zeugnis. Das Zeugnis muss mindestens Angaben zu Art und Dauer der Tätigkeit (einfaches Zeugnis) enthalten. Der Arbeitnehmer kann verlangen, dass sich die Angaben darüber hinaus auf Leistung und Verhalten im Arbeitsverhältnis (qualifiziertes Zeugnis) erstrecken.

it's clear that your employer has given you an "einfaches Zeugnis". Just ask him to issue you an "qualifiziertes Zeugnis". One notice though: there was one legal dispute in which employee wanted to prove that his employer had to issue him an "qualifiziertes Zeugnis", but the judge ruled it that employer was right, due to a fact that it was not possible for him to learn his employee during only six months of work. therefore if you did not work for a relatively long time (over a year) and if your employer almost did not see you, it's very possible that you will have to live with an "einfaches Zeugnis". that would be a "minus" for you of course, as such thing is a perfect sign that an applicant did not do anything useful ;)

"Normally no one will write bad words on their employee even if they leaves the company. Every company will maintain a friendly relation with their employees even if they leave the company. Your old employer looks very strange.."

it depends. if employee has a limited residence permit, employer usually understands it that employee will have to go back to his home country if he is unable to find a new job quickly, therefore will be unable to cause any problems ;)

my last employer for example has not given me any reference letter despite of several reminders. obviously he thought that i would be sent "nach Hause" very quickly; this of course will not free him from paying me a salary for all months of my unemployment when our legal dispute is over *lol*

yes, and there are companies and companies. did you ever work for a company which lends its employees to other companies? because if you did not i would suggest you to try it - just in order to be able to see a difference yourself ;)

Hi all,

I consulted my current boss with the Arbeitszeugnis and he replied me that their are some rules and laws based on which a Zeugnis must be given. He asked me to consult a Lawyer with the Zeugnis. I will consult a lawyer next week and update this thread.

Regards.

lol right do that so that the money do not leave Germany

It is not just zeugnis the old employer has deducted 500 Euros from my last salary with the company as sonstiges. I knew some probs like this will happen so I had taken a Versichurung for a year...So I think I should use that atleast once..

Regards.

HI amolp76,

Could u please explain what exactly u meant that ur employer has deducted 500€ and how did u escaped.

"It is not just zeugnis the old employer has deducted 500 Euros from my last salary with the company as sonstiges. I knew some probs like this will happen so I had taken a Versichurung for a year...So I think I should use that atleast once.."

lol you are lucky that he did deduct only 500€ ... as i said already somewhere on this forum, in Germany there is a common understanding that when there are any problems with a foreigner, regardless whether he is right or wrong, he must go back ... the whole system works in this way as everybody has the same understanding ... also it is understood that nobody helps foreigners in third world countries, even opposite - governments there help first world countries to keep foreigners "under control" once they have come back. therefore it happens pretty often that foreigners from third world countries are treated as people of the second sort. just a fact of life, nothing else ;)

Hi guys,

I just wanted to share my experience. Twice here in Deutschland I have resigned on my own (greener pastures?) and once I was fired. But in none of the cases, the Zeugnis was a problem. In the first 2 cases, I just wrote myself what zeugnis I wanted and got it signed. Till that time, I had a fair idea of what a Zeugnis means and how can it be useful/problematic. But no company where I went for interview asked for my previous Zeugnis. The third company where I was fired, gave also a 'rather good' zeugnis to me. There is at one place mentioned, "er ist mit Unterstützung seiner vorgesetzen neuen Situationen aufgewachsen..." as if without my boss explaining me, I could not come around myself. This could be a situation like the tricky ones. Whatever looks 'komisch' is not welcome in zeugnis. Legally, there is a 6 Months time whithin which you can ask for a better zeugnis. And as mentioned earlier in this thread, to give a bad reference is not legally allowed. And if there is still a problem, a letter from your lawyer to your previous company would definitely do the trick.

So, a bad or unusable zeugnis does not come in question. In my view, in Germany, papers count. And it is always beneficial to have a proper and clean zeugnis.

Hope this info helps someone.

Chirag.

"Legally, there is a 6 Months time whithin which you can ask for a better zeugnis."

Yes you can. If immigration office does not abide you to leave the country up to that point, due to a fact that you do not have a job. some employers do understand this slight difference between foreigners from third world countries (foreigners from first world countries have a much better stance here, they have more rights and it is understood as well that their embassies/officials will gladly help them if Germany does something not accordingly to human rights and laws) and natives, officials in immigration offices do understand this slight difference as well. therefore some employers as well as authorities just try to use it, being very confident that it is never going to get known.

"And as mentioned earlier in this thread, to give a bad reference is not legally allowed."

but you still need to prove it, and a process in a court of law takes time, sometimes years. do you think that a court of law will continue a process if you disappear? if you do, you are mistaken *lol* you will not come to a court of law in appointed time, the lawyer of an opposite party will ask for cancellation of a process because of that and court of law will satisfy his request. period. and you can of course try to pursue justice from your home country - but if you are a foreigner from the third world country such attempts are not going to succeed, because it is very obvious that you will never again get any entry visa and officials in your home country will declare you insane and treat you until you say youself that everything was done accordingly to a law.

"And if there is still a problem, a letter from your lawyer to your previous company would definitely do the trick."

lol look above on very possible way of procedure. opposing party can hire a lawyer themselves, thinking that it will cost much less than to pay you money. your lawyer will of course do his job, but only up to the point while you pay him money. if you disappear and stop paying him money, he will do nothing.


lol i request not to understand me incorrectly here. what is said, that the world is not perfect, people are different as well and some people do not care about laws, rights etc. once they persuade themselves that they are not going to be punished ;)

lol just to back up my words by some law statements ;)

VwVG § 6 Zulässigkeit des Verwaltungszwanges

(1) Der Verwaltungsakt, der auf die Herausgabe einer Sache oder auf die Vornahme einer Handlung oder auf Duldung oder Unterlassung gerichtet ist, kann mit den Zwangsmitteln nach § 9 durchgesetzt werden, wenn er unanfechtbar ist oder wenn sein sofortiger Vollzug angeordnet oder wenn dem Rechtsmittel keine aufschiebende Wirkung beigelegt ist.

(2) Der Verwaltungszwang kann ohne vorausgehenden Verwaltungsakt angewendet werden, wenn der sofortige Vollzug zur Verhinderung einer rechtswidrigen Tat die einen Straf- oder Bußgeldtatbestand verwirklicht, oder zur Abwendung einer drohenden Gefahr notwendig ist und die Behörde hierbei innerhalb ihrer gesetzlichen Befugnisse handelt.

VwVG § 12 Unmittelbarer Zwang

Führt die Ersatzvornahme oder das Zwangsgeld nicht zum Ziel oder sind sie untunlich, so kann die Vollzugsbehörde den Pflichtigen zur Handlung, Duldung oder Unterlassung zwingen oder die Handlung selbst vornehmen.

---------------------------------------

will make it first more understandable by providing only parts of those articles which are important for my point of view.

VwVG § 6 Zulässigkeit des Verwaltungszwanges

(1) Der Verwaltungsakt, der ... auf Duldung ... gerichtet ist, kann mit den Zwangsmitteln nach § 9 durchgesetzt werden, wenn ... sein sofortiger Vollzug angeordnet ... ist.

(2) Der Verwaltungszwang kann ohne vorausgehenden Verwaltungsakt angewendet werden, wenn der sofortige Vollzug zur ... Abwendung einer drohenden Gefahr notwendig ist und die Behörde hierbei innerhalb ihrer gesetzlichen Befugnisse handelt.

VwVG § 9 Zwangsmittel

(1) Zwangsmittel sind:
...
c) unmittelbarer Zwang (§ 12).

VwVG § 12 Unmittelbarer Zwang

... sind sie (die Ersatzvornahme oder das Zwangsgeld) untunlich, so kann die Vollzugsbehörde den Pflichtigen zur ... Duldung ... zwingen ....

of course there are many other common statements in the same law that everything should be considered before decision is reached so that the interests of a person involved are not touched when it is not required by predominant interests of Germany; and even then they should be touched in minimally possible way, therefore a guy with U.S. citizenship will not be deported without a judge decision, but in case of foreigner from a third country a deportation can be carried out in 1 hour without giving him any hint of it being prepared and without giving him a chance to stop such actions by submitting an application to a corresponding court of law (theoretically and practically is possible, if the person is warned in 24 hours before arrest; and it is even possible if he is warned in 2 hours before arrest and the corresponding court of law is open).

lol it seems that i have an intuition. could not possibly know contents of today's "Der Spiegel" when i wrote my previous remarks, now could i *lol*?

"Um 17.44 Uhr hatte das Gericht in Münster geurteilt (dismissal of a claim against deportation - my comment), um 18.25 Uhr ging der Haftbefehl an die Polizei heraus. In froher Erwartung hatte die Düsseldorfer Bezirksregierung zunächst ein Charter-flugzeug für den Heimflug des Kalifen reservieren lassen. Nur weil NRW-Innenminister Behrens keine "Nacht-und-Nebel-Aktion" kurz nach dem Urteil wollte, kam es nicht dazu."

i would be very suspicious about the rightfulness of the last phrase, just because of another statement in the same article ;)

"Als Durchlauferhitzer in dieser Duskussion ist der Fall Kaplan unschlagbar - jahrzehntelanges Staatsversagen, gekrönt von der Blamage, dass die Kölner Polizei den Mann in der vorvergangenen Woche Hals über Kopf zur Abschiebung festnehmen wollte, aber stundenlang nicht finden konnte."

- Der Spiegel, Nr. 24/07.06.2004, "Im Labyrinth des Kalifen", 24-40.

so i would suggest that in reality he knew what is going to be done against him (not difficult for a man who knows a german legal system or who has good lawyers that can explain him all possibilities) and made necessary arragements so that police just was not able to find him until his lawyer submitted a right application to a right court of law on the next morning *lol*

well i request to understand me once more: i do not support terrorism and use this case just as a good example how rights can not be granted to a man, who has a name, lots of money, good lawyers and who has started a PR-campaign just in the right time. what to tell about those who have nothing of the above? was man - and there is no man *lol* i myself know several cases when people where deported before a decision of court of law, and after their deportation a court of law has decided that they should not be deported at all ...

and one more thing to notice: in the whole article i was able to find only several lines about "good foreigners", everything else - about how foreigners are bad and how the process of their deportation must be made easier. tells something to me, about REAL purpose of new immigration law ... here are those lines, by the way:

"Auf der anderen Seite stehen die Verlierer im Bleiberechts-Lotto, die nicht raffiniert genug sind, zu ehrlich, zu wenig zäh - Eigenschaften, die das deutsche Ausländerrecht gnadenlos abstrafen kann. Zum Beispiel bei dem Bosnier Seid Everding aus Castrop-Rauxel, der gerade sein Abitur gemacht hat, nachdem er, mit kurzer Unterbrechung, seit mehr als zehn Jahren in Deutschland gelebt hatte. Seine Mutter hat einen Deutschen geheiratet, seine Schwester besitzt einen deutschen Pass, nun soll er das Land in den nächsten Wochen verlassen, weil er volljährig ist und nur noch bis zum Ende der 13. Klasse bleiben durfte. "Wir würden ihn gern hier behalten", bedauert die Castrop-Rauxeler Sozialdezernentin Petra Glöß, "aber wir haben rechtlich keine Möglichkeit.""

about last phrase i can just say: it's a complete bullsh!t! just shows that the man does not know laws and legal system, does not have much money, can not hire good lawyers just because he worked all time on low-paid jobs; therefore there is no problem to get him out and yo-yo, then he is a wonderful foreigner! interesting what would be said about him if he hired lawyers and started to kick the sh!t out of those officials *lol* guess nothing better than about everybody else ...

but the whole article is a food for thoughts: good foreigners are those, who leave Germany after the first requirement even if they lived more than ten years here from the time when they were children (!) and even if their family is here; all the ones who stay and fight for their rights - are "bad guys", terrorists and extremists which will lose and will have to leave the country by force, regardless how much time it takes. moreover, it could be thought to be purposed on the minds of natives: to show them how foreigners laugh from them while getting a social aid and to persuade them that basic human rights should not be granted to foreigners any longer. it's sad to say, but the whole article leaves just such an impression.

I wonder, probably we have a "Fourth Reich" coming?

Hi,

With this discussion thread, I really came to know a lot more things about the treatment of foreign employees by some of the companies. I have taken a appointment with a lawyer for next week and will update the thread accordingly. I will try my best to get a proper zeugnis and get my 500 Euros back. The company has gave reason as sonstiges to deduct this amount. I really do not know what sonstiges and why but I waited hoping that if I go to court he may create some other problems and give a bad zeugnis.

Regards.

"I really do not know what sonstiges and why but I waited hoping that if I go to court he may create some other problems and give a bad zeugnis."

lol but what choice do you have, he refused to give you a good zeugnis anyway?

Hi,

I visited a lawyer yesterday and he advised me to make a proper zeugnis for myself detailing the work that I have done and all other facts and he said if my old company does not sign it then he will go to court. So any spl tips for zeugnis are welcome

Regards,
Amol.

Verschlüsselte Zeugnisaussagen

http://www.kienbaum.de/cms/de/ms_career_centre/recruiting_tips/bewerbungsunterlagen/zeugnisse/zeugnisaussagen.cfm?ParentID=000B0E05-C4E6-1CE4-B6B180EDC2A20000