Dear knowledgeable people,

Here is my situation, competent replies will be infinitely appreciated.

Currently:

1) I have a Serbian passport
2) I have been married to a German for 6 months (just on paper)
3) I have been living in Germany for 5.5 years, but 3 years are studies.
4) I have a temporary 2-year German residence permit on grounds of being employed (which I had gotten before marriage)
5) I am unemployed, but my partner is employed.
6) I have not been working for 60 months in Germany yet, nor will I ever have been.

I want:

1) Not to work or live Germany
2) To move and to work in Spain

I believed the easiest way to do this is to get Daueraufenthalt-EG in Germany first, fulfilling all "you need to sustain yourself" requirements through my partner, and then just disappearing solo to Spain.

Q1) I just read today somewhere here that Dauerauhenthalt EG does not give me right to work and live in Spain, as Spain still hasn't signed that EU law or something. Is this REALLY true? I read also numerous times that only UK, Ireland and Denmark have not signed this agreement.

In any case, I went to the foreigner's office to inquire about Daueraufenthalt EG, but the angry officer told me immediatelly that I am "not yet eligible". However, after some discussion in which she realized that I got married recently which she didn't have in her computer and that I want to go to work to another EU country, she said "Get out until I prepare a list of documents you need, I'll call you later" (even though I "am not yet eligible", bureaucracy is often intentionally self-contradictory, just to give you hope). The list included one document about the transfer of my partner's pension to me; upon further investigation in Rentenversicherung authority I got to know that I need to be married for at least 1 year before such an agreement could be made. In addition, as 5-year requirement has not been fulfilled yet, since study times are counted only half, we concluded upon calling Spanish consulate that I should go to the consulate and apply there for visa and later for residence in town where I want to live and work -- basically the procedure as if I didn't have any history of living in Germany. The angry officer noted in the end "and I want to see a visa sticker of another EU country in your passport next time", which in fact scared me.

Q2) Is the angry officer right, i.e. am I really still not eligible for Daueraufenthalt EG? I read somewhere on the Internet that 5 years requirement is relaxed to 3 years if you are married.

So I left the process for next year and went to Spain.

Here I realized that there is another way to go. I can apply for "residence card for non-EU family members of EU nationals", but the condition is that the partner moves to reside in Spain together with me of course, which is not our intention. We could however arrange a fictional change of residence: my partner could come to Spain with me and submit all documentation and then leave back to Germany to live and work as usual.

Q3) Is this really possible, could my partner be registered both in Germany and Spain and would this interfere with their work in Germany?

Q4) When will I be eligible for German citizenship?

All in all, my main trillema is which way to go, so that to ripe most benefits with least amount of effort:

1) should I just wait more, in the meantime perhaps finding a little job on black market here in Spain or not work at all, and then next year try to get the permanent settlement permit in Germany, whereupon leaving to Spain where I would then maybe have the same rights as EU citizens, finally ready to start my life here;

2) should I apply for this non-family members Spanish residence, asking my partner to visit me for a day here in Spain; or

3) should I just find a job here, then go back to a Spanish consulate in Germany, get a work visa there, then come back to Spain and apply for Spanish work and residence permit

Options 2) and 3), especially 3) [which is the only fully legal thing], seem to me as if they would annul my history of living in Germany [which is on long run a bad thing isn’t it], yet they appear to be the only sensible solutions if I am to start working legally ASAP here in Spain.

Thank you guys for reading my case and giving me any relevant information, especially if it's from your own experience.

B.

>>2) I have been married to a German for 6 months (just on paper)


Best option, get married to a spanish girl and divorce the german one..problem solved.

I am just curious, why all those officials were angry upon you?? I know that some of the visum officials are not enough polite to all the persons!! Anyway, if you think you were right then you may complain against the official who is sitting over there and pissing the visitors!

Extracts from the post of Belarada, to amuse yourselves as to which extent one can think:

"I have been married to a German for 6 months (just on paper)....

....the transfer of my partner's pension to me;

....the condition is that the partner moves to reside in Spain together with me of course, which is not our intention. We could however arrange a fictional change of residence .....

When will I be eligible for German citizenship?....

.... to ripe most benefits with least amount of effort.....

.... in the meantime perhaps finding a little job on black market here in Spain or not work at all, ..."

> Best option, get married to a spanish girl and divorce the german one..problem solved.

Easier said than done, but thanks !

> am just curious, why all those officials were angry upon you??

I presume I mentioned only one official . She was not angry upon me, she was just angry by inertia, I did not take it personally, I was only sad that I did not have too much luck that day (there are handier colleagues of her in that building, from my own experience .

> Anyway, if you think you were right

I don't think anything, that's why I am asking you. Perhaps she is right, I should not know the law as well as she, but then again, she can also be ignorant.

> to amuse yourselves as to which extent one can think:

Yourselves? Ourselves? Myself? I am most amused, no question!

What if you just try to fulfill the legal requirements as most of us -decent foreigners- do?

People like you -cheaters!- just make it harder for others. ABH should just kick your lazy butt out!

Sorry guys, this just fed me up.


Ari

Hi,

out of the "ethical dicussions", here is information about Spain:

The original European Council Directive 2003/109/EC Document ( http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0109:en:NOT ) states that Daueraufenthalt-EG is not valid in UK, Ireland and Denmark.

Following document gives the status of all EU countries wrt. Daueraufenthalt-EG. In this document there is no information about Spain:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:72003L0109:EN:NOT

I am the only one at Trust7 who gave reference to this document. If this document is correct then Spain still have not signed the national legislation. In other words, Daueraufenthalt-EG is still not valid in Spain.

BTW, I have found a very interesting thread in info4alien:
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1256669477

In this thread someone who has Daueraufenthalt-EG in Austria wants to work in Germany. It came to conclusion that despite that permit it is necessary for a work labour check, as though Daueraufenthalt-EG doesn't give advantage. If this is correct, I would expect similar stuff in outher countries. Then I will ask myself what advantage does DE-EG have?

Klenze17.

Council Directive 2003/109/EC

of 25 November 2003

concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents

THE COUNCIL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION,
.........
CHAPTER II LONG-TERM RESIDENT STATUS IN A MEMBER STATE
.......
Article 11

Equal treatment

1. Long-term residents shall enjoy equal treatment with nationals as regards:

(a) access to employment and self-employed activity, provided such activities do not entail even occasional involvement in the exercise of public authority, and conditions of employment and working conditions, including conditions regarding dismissal and remuneration;

Sounds like work with no Arbeitsamtcheck to me, at least for most jobs.

So the question is whether Spain has put this directive in complete force or no.

Hi mkorobeinik1,

as also mentioned in the thread, EU countries may put restrictions to flexibility of the Council Directive:

...Article 11

Equal treatment
...
3. Member States may restrict equal treatment with nationals in the following cases:

(a) Member States may retain restrictions to access to employment or self-employed activities in cases where, in accordance with existing national or Community legislation, these activities are reserved to nationals, EU or EEA citizens;

Now if someone who got DE-EG in a EU member country other than Germany but wants to work in Germany, then they will use the law item §38a Aufenthaltserlaubnis für in anderen Mitgliedstaaten der Europäischen Union langfristig Aufenthaltsberechtigte ( http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#38a ) will override DE-EG and you need a work permit with work labour check (Arbeitmarktsprüfung/Vorrangsprüfung). For more information: Verwaltungsvorschriften AufenthG ( http://www.bundesrat.de/cln_090/SharedDocs/Drucksachen/2009/0601-700/669-09,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/669-09.pdf )

Then I ask myself what does DE-EG give more? Nothing! Any country will use this item to restrict DE-EG, as also mentioned in the thread.

We don't know if Spain signed or not but suppose they signed, we don't know if they restrict or not Worst case, they must have restricted. It makes sense to me that Spain must not have signed the Directive because this country suffers from illegal immigrants coming with ships through the coasts or touristic places in the last years.

DE-EG seems to be redundant in this aspect.

Klenze17.

Even if the directive has not been implemented into national law the directive is still valid as the deadline has passed.

This is a good link on someone trying the inverse scenario, but what would need to be done to get an EG recognized.

http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1242195636

klenze17, there's further arguments in i4a that prove that DE-EG gives no direct arbeitsmarktzugang in Germany. I argued with the one you cited that this rule related to particular professions and still gives a lot of professions open, but the last reference given proves the necessity of check for Germany. One has to check the same about Spain.

mkorobeinik1 wrote
klenze17, there's further arguments in i4a that prove that DE-EG gives no direct arbeitsmarktzugang in Germany. I argued with the one you cited that this rule related to particular professions and still gives a lot of professions open, but the last reference given proves the necessity of check for Germany. One has to check the same about Spain.

Hi mkorobeinik1, I have also watched that thread live, and the people there watching here too. I have seen a lot in the past that officials in that site refer to Trust7 several times.

So it seems that DE-EG from other countries does not exempt from work labour check. That means, it doesn't make any diff whether you have DE-EG or not (for Germany). My theory in my prev posts are, if Germany does this to other EU member countries, then the other EU member countries might have similar restrictions. If my logic is correct and provable, then DE-EG does not have any advantage. This makes DE-EG redundant.

The case with Spain is very complex. I have read Aalvarez' link. That case has to be clarified in the uppermost legislative authorities, which might to go to European Court of Justice or European Court of Human Rights.

Maybe I will write in the future to authorities in EU institutes about the status2003/109/EC in Germany. According to all data here, 2003/109/EC doesn't have any place to be applied in EU... If this is the directon, then it will be a redundant directive which is practically useless but extremely corner cases for 1-2 people.

Klenze17

>What if you just try to fulfill the legal requirements as most of us -decent foreigners- do?

I am trying to fulfill the legal requirements just like most of you decent people do! Where did you get the idea that I am trying to evade them? The fact that I want to spend the least amount of effort and work while fulfilling these [ambiguous as such] requirements does not make me less decent I hope (I am not a protestant after all! . I decide to operate on the formal level just like bureaucracy does, and therefore I do not intend to make my life-important decisions in reality according to the rules, but only to simulate obediance to them, except when there is no other solution.

Does anyone know HOW to check if Spain has implemented the law and if it has imposed restrictions on Dauer...t-EG that would render it useless? Sorry for waking up this thread, but I haven't moved a single inch from my situation in November!

Thanks for any info.

Please look at my posting in this thread, In the link below I had refered the weblink of EU whether Spain has implemented the law or not:

http://trust7.com/en/foren/visa_questions/seeking_daueraufenthalt_eg_to_settle_in_spain/re_seeking_daueraufenthalt_eg_to_settle_in_spain__5

Also, info4alien has a lot of themes related to your problem (links are in German):
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1263289497
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1260062484
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1255888127
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1254839807
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1253221982/
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1242195636/

You can also achieve the same list by going to Info4Alien (web portal for foreigners in Germany, officials directly answer the questions) and then type "daueraufenthalt spain" in "Suchen" by choosing explicitly "search for me all articles for more than one year" etc. Please note that this site is in pure German!

HTH.
Klenze17.