Hi All!!

I have the problem to apply for BE according to BeschVerfV 9. The law say die Zustimmung zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung kann ohne Prruefung nach 39...... The beamter send me a mail to say that the word kann mean it depend... In my case, he interpret as he can not give it to me without the prove form arbeitamrkt.

For someone who got it, I think they are lucky that they interpret the word kann as I will do it for you..

See u

ok,

the meaning for "können", "kann" ...

Once DvD explained it as "must if there is no good reason not to", but please correct me if i am wrong.

Hopefully there is a lawyer reading the forum or trust7 native german speakers might explain this better.

By the way which ausländerbehörde is this ? which city ?

Find a lawyer to solve your problem. There is no reason to reject you this otherwise this law would be senseless.

Afterwards report this to federal ministry of interior and also place Diensaufsichtsbeschwerde against responsible abh officer.

Good luck.

Hi,

I have got BE and the abh officer asked AA and got it confirmed what is the meaning of this sentence..Maybe you can go personally and make him talk with AA in front of you.

Good luck.

Hi!
Thank you for your fast reply!!!

As I said, they will come to consider my case again if I change my job. Since I still have no plan to change the job now, then they decide not to give me. They say that if I got the Niederlassungerlaubnis then they will absoltely do this without hesitate.

D.h. dass weiterhin eine Zustimmung benoetigt wird, lediglich von der Vorrangpruefung kann (d.h. Ermessen und damit Einzelfallpruefung der Argentur fuer Arbeit.

Sollten Sie eine neue Arbeitstelle in Aussicht haben, muessen Sie weiterhin einen Antrag bei unsstellen und wir leiten es dann an die Argentur fuer Arbeit.

Erst mit der Niederlassungserlaubnis koennen Sie die uneingeschraenkte Arbeitserlaubnis erhalten.

These is the letter that I got the reply from them.

I still have no idea to continue with these...
Konstanz stadr zum See.

Ha ha ha. If you get NE than you will not need §9.
I think that pure logic should be enough to see that this Beamte is wrong:
If somebody with NE does not need §9 and if this §9 is only for NE (as he says) than §9 is useless and need not to be in law.

This is normal that they do not know. BeschVerfV is AA specialty and someone at AA must know that. It is usually doen by ex Arbeitsberechtigung Abteilung because it is similar. Tell me did he contacted AA or not.
In my case ABH knew nothing but AA knew a litle bit more. It was not enough but they learned quick.

So what you need is to have this ABH man asks the AA. Before you should find who at AA deals with ArbBerechtigungen. It is now §9. Talk to him because he should know those things.
If really noone at AA knows try to reach AA boss and explain him the problem.

I did it that way.
If it does not works than only lawyer can help.

Hi DvD
Thank for your information!!
I will try to send the letter to them again according to your recomend to ask them to contact AA( I suppose it comes from Arbeit Argentur, I am not sure what does it mean and who are there and how I can contact)
And I will let you know what is the result. The reply may take a week for them. I will be patient.
Thank
Iced

@iceddragon

Go to Arbeitsamt (AA) and try to talk with the corresponding person who handles all Green Card related cases. Explain him/her all what the others have pointed you out above.

Assuming that you receive good news from him/her (in other case you need a lawyer), then get his/her telefon number and name.

Finally, write the letter, put the contact information of AA and, if it's possible, go directly to AB with the letter (and a copy for you) and try to talk with the person who signed the letter that you got from them. In other case, It's going to be a slow process. Remember, try to be quite but show that you know your rights.

Good luck,

Alex

@iceddragon

you allready sent some letter. That is more than enough. It would be much better to call them now.

Letter is sh.t. It lasts too long and you can not pursuade somebody in letter.
Find number from ABH and AA and call them.
Best would be from beginning to call some boss.

@DvD

yes, the way to go is personally but answaring the letter to say that he disagrees with what it states is normally necessary.

Usually these letters have at the botton a note telling something like "if you don't answer this letter in one week, you are accepting the given answer and later you won't be able to appeal...".

Everything should be in paper.

Alex

if he wants to end in court of law then the paper is OK. But on the court of law he will get nothing because they do not have to give it without purpose.
but it is much quicker and better to try per phone. it is better because per phone he can explain something and get quick answers. He can feel what guy thinks. And what is most important he can try to pursuade him.

By the way: HE MUST CONTACT AA, because those things are know only AA, but if he writes something to AA formaly, he will get answer:
"Ihr Ansprechpartner ist ABH".

So on the end HE MUST CALL ABH and AA because when he sends letter to ABH that is slow and unadequate, but when they send it to AA again that is katastrophe.

Trust me i had my written and verbal comunication with ABH and AA.
Look at my thread
"My Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung"
about problem that may rise when AA and ABH comunicate.


Another tip:
Try NEBENTÄTIGKEIT as a reason for Be or Eg.

Hi,

As I do remember in the mail that we have received from BMI, was explained that GC who are more then 4 years in DE or 3 years working in DE do not need AA chek and if some Behörde are making missunderstanding and problem should BMI informed.
Unfortenately I can not find this mail hier in the Forum,but I am know it is in some link pointed.
I am sure that was written in this answer from BMI...so you can show them this letter and assure hem that (you Beamter) he is wrong about thing that he is doing to you.
I do also have problem with my Beamter ...after 2 months (I have wrote to him, and call him and yesterday visit him) he do not want to answer me.
Yesterday when I have visit him...(he was out of office) but his coulegue has told me...We do not know, you have wait your Beamter,I do not know...
I have show her the law kopy an all corespondence and she answer ...but we have and we know same law...
I have ask her...then why are you telling me that you do not know...she was surprised and confused and told me ...ask your Beamter I can not answer you any more.
You see... 'I can' for germans are playing game between .... 'May I...Yes you may but you can not!'
Some are right, you have to get Lawer to settel this game, couse if you fulfield all needs according the law simply they must give it to you.
If you try alone to deal with it, you find resistance and they always play in 'schriftlich form' so you loose the time (as I am) and delayed.
So try to find the BMI amswer and I am sure that it was written there...I think I am in right or correct me if I am wrong.

As I have understand it...

Die Zustimmung zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung kann ohne Prüfung nach § 39 Abs. 2 Satz 1 Nr. 1 des Aufenthaltsgesetzes Ausländern erteilt werden, die eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzen und
1. 3 years...
2. 4 years...

But you have Aufenthaltserlaubnis and you are under 1 or under 2...

and....

§ 39 Zustimmung zur Ausländerbeschäftigung
for those who already have to come in Germany...

You already have it and you do not need it!

Otherwise...how coud you work till know if you do not have Zustimmung zur Ausländerbeschäftigung.

In your (or my case) we are just searching..

§ 9 Beschäftigung bei Vorbeschäftigungszeiten oder längerfristigem Voraufenthalt

@ max & iceddragon

I am not sure that lawyer could help.
You are both not changing job. So there is no reason to issue any new AE for ABH.
I know that lots of people got it without jobwechsel but I am not sure they MUST give it in that case.
One can allways try to use NEBENTÄTIGKEIT as a reason but it must not work.
Problem is that with §9 you can get Be,
BUT with Be you CAN NOT do Nebentätigkeit.
So honestly, Nebentätigkeit is not god reason for §9.
For Nebentätigkeit one needs Eg and ABH can give you Eg but they are not obliged.
Only if you invest 1 milion and employ 10 people ABH must give you Eg.

Luckily they
- don't know this details,
- can issue Eg if they want to.

So on the end:
It is nice to get lawyer for this but you can not be sure that you will win.
On the other hand if you talk to them you have a lot of time to pursuade them.

I did it that way and I got Eg - which is even more than law prescribes.

Hi!!
Today I went to ask in AA. They say now there is nothing concern about our working permit for foriener anymore. Then she can not help me anything. But she recommend me to ask to apply for that even I do not want to change the job yet. Even ABH think I can not have but I have right to apply and then AA will decide. Good to try better than nothing..


Thank
iced

Hm... I thought you allready made official Antrag.

If not do Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung with Nebentätigkeit als Begründung.
Even if you do not have any Nebentätigkeit you can say that you will get one once you get Eg.

Then talk to them and to AA too. They are much nicer when they see real written Antrag.

Hi!!!
Today I go to talk with ABH again to apply for the official antrag aufhebug. She say the same that I can not apply for that because I am not allowed to put out the name of company out of my visa. I have to wait until I got NiederlassungVisum. I got 5 year visa to work in IT area, that is the special visa ( I suppose she means greencard), that is not valid for BescheVerf9 or BeschV42.2 means that I can continue having Visa until the end of my permit!! Even I say I have already call some in Kahlruhe, and ABH say that I will have it but she say may be they have the other different visa or different document. I ask her to come again if I got question about this, she say I will get the same result from her because the case was already proved. It seem to be the story is really end. I have to wait until I got Niederlassungerlaubnis then I can to ask her again. Thank for Dvd and the other from the forum, who help me not to give up until I try my best!!

Ice

Beamters in Karlsruhe are playing tough, I must say.

Here's my experience with them - I switched companies (from Dusseldorf to Karslruhe) and everything went fine until the procedure came to Arbeitsamt (ABH guys were neat). First, the ignored this rules about 3yrs working or 4yrs living in Germany - they pushed Arbeitsmarktpruefung; they harrased some people in my (new) company why they took a foreigner for a job, why they gave me "such a high pay", asked several times to fax this and that; it seems that they would have been happy if my interviews were recorded and they received the tapes. In one word, they couldn't figure out why me. When at last (after several weeks) company sent the complete documentation of all our talks and they've seen that there were less then 18% of German candidates (in figure with two zeroes of total candidates for this position). Finally, they have given their zustimmung, but they've bound it to the company name.

And what is really sleazy - they have resticted my wife from working. We came in 2000 and she wasn't allowed to work for the first two years. In 2002, she obtained valid work permit (no limitations) and she found a job, where she worked until our umzug to Karlsruhe. Of course, we registered her as "currently arbetslos" at ABH. But we didn't ask arbeitslosgeld or any other socialmoney from the state. And as an aswer, she got "Erwerbstaetigkeit nicht erlaubt". What about all that arbeitslosgeld and other taxes that she paid for the last three years?!?

Has anyone had case like this?

"Has anyone had case like this?"

Yes, of course, we do.
What do you expect, if you do not fight and shout, you always get the middlefinger in Deutschland as a foreigner.

Processing all work with these behörde/amt in "written" form, a good rechtschutzversicherung and a lawyer might help.

Justice for all ? Not really... ;)

<offtopic>
Of course I've always fought and shouted - and I will again. If anything is bound to my genes, that's spite and stubborness. And I will push until I get everything I'm supposed to get. And when I get it, I'll go somewhere else - with a personal letter to my Beamter: "here's my job, choke on it and stick it where the sun never shines!". It's only depending on the treatment I get here whether I'm going turn around on the border and spit - or not. There were nice moments and normal people here in Germany, but assholes like this one cast a very bad shadow on the whole package. I didn't want it to come to this, I tried very hard to integrate and to abide the law and all other rules as guest in somebody else's house, in spite of all difficulties the administration was throwing at us. But too much is too much. Germany doesn't need highly skilled IT experts; Germany needs foreigners only to be road sweepers and WC cleaners because that's too low for them to do. And that's the fact that nothing will change.
</offtopic>

When I asked "has anyone had a case like that", I didn't want to express my surprise with beamter's decision. I was asking if anybody has had a positive result after a fight and which laws were used in that fight. And in don't mean my case of bounding to the company name, but the case of my wife, who had unlimited work permit (and worked and payed all fees), and it was taken away.
I hope I was more clear now.

I had a similar case.
My wife did not got visa that forbids work but
my case is still similar because I ran onto Beamters who did not know law and I had to fight really hard and even raise a Widerspruch.

But on the end I got it all:
ArbBer for my wife and Eg for my self.

But although Beamters did not know their job I must say they were nice to me.
And I think I can understand why do they do their job so bad. They are underpaid. With such a salary you can not expect genius Beamter. Those are somewhere else and they are good payed.

About statement that Germany does not need HQ Ausländers, I can not disagree more.
Actually they do not need low Arbeiter any more. They need only HQ Ausländer because they are cheaper and work better. German economy is not concurent because they have expensive HQ people.

DvD, when I said "Germany doesn't need highly skilled IT experts", I didn't mean the economy (it does need us - badly), but the state in the political meaning (because they make the rules). For them the question of how many Germans are (un)employed is much more important at the moment than the question if companies are getting the quality staff.
I'm glad that someone in my company told the AA beamter that their goal is not just to fill the vacancy, but to get real quality code. They have had persons in my place before for the half of my wage (most of them were accidentally Germans), but the company wasn't satified with the results. Then they decided to pay more and get what they wanted. And that's the point the AA beamter isn't getting; for him it's just important to fill in the place and to say "one down, 4 million to go". And that's not only the problem of this beamter, but of many people.


Anyway, back to the theme: how much time and money (approx) did it cost you to clean up that rubble? (if it's not convenient for you to say it in public, you can write me an email: jackleg at postmaster dot co dot uk, in Croatian, of course).
I mean, in two months I'll be in position to ask for NE and I wanted to do that with a lawyer. If this first problem lasts too long, maybe it would be wise to save the money, time and nerves and invest them in NE procedure. Only if this current status would be a problem for getting a NE, I'd be forced to clean them one by one.
On the other hand, I'm on Probeszeit currently, and if I'm kicked out during these two months, we're in deep shit - I'm bound to the company and my wife is not allowed to work.