Hi Guys,

I left Germany about 8 weeks ago and it feels sooooo goood. I am back in silicon valley and see how I really wasted my last 5 years in Germany. It feels really good not to be "der auslaender" in Germany and be asked at every turn to show my passport because I don't look german, even the stupid traffic police asked me for that instead of my driver license. Uhhhhh. Anyway I just wanted to make myself heard again.
Ohhh by the way, should I comment on the German election?? no no better not :-))

Cheers

You killed my all motivation today!!!

.....how I really wasted my last 5 years in Germany.

Come on JJ, it can't be all that bad. I am sure you also had your nice time in germany as well.

It feels really good not to be "der auslaender" in Germany and be asked at every turn to show my passport

It's really a pity that all you can remember is showing passport to police. I work in Düsseldorf and at Düsseldorf-Hbf atleast once in a month I am asked by police to show my passport. Funny thing is I never carry my passport and they dont mind it either. However I have to give my name and DOB and they verify it over walkie-talkie. Sometimes I too feel annoyed over this passport control, but I guess every country has a right to defend/protect itself and it's citizen against unwanted/uninvited hazard.

You are setting a bad example by leaving germany and describing it as shit-hole. This is no way to reciprocate a country which provided you livelihood for 5 years.


Ohhh by the way, should I comment on the German election??

Ohhh really!! Let's see what you have to say :-)

I want to add to the election part,

--If one watched the TV duell, Mature the candidates were. there were NO attacks that one saw during the elctions in US. It was very diplomatic . It was Excellent and mature politik.

--After the election where on Earth can you find two opposing sides trying to form a coalition ? Never. Again Excellent and mature politics.

And I want to comment to passport control part. I was also asked once to show my passport and I didnt have it with me, the police didnt seem to care about it and just asked whether I have another ID and I have showed my ID from my home-land. To my suprise, the policeman was able to read my ID from my homeland. I guess they get a special training for that.. and it was enough..

I also can get services offered in my mother-tongue in so many places in Germany.. even at Arbeitsamt, there was an officer who spoke my mother-tongue..

I really feel like home here.. I can not complain.. to be honest..

Regards,

Lacrima

PS: I am a turkish ex-greencarder

Hi JJ,

dont think silicon valley is the best place or it is equal to heaven. I have also visited the SV a couple of times and i feel it it is much worse than a German town . There are pros and cons abotu everyplace but you dont have to ditch germany just because u have asked to show your passport.

BTW, How do the immigration officers in the US treat ? slightly better than a dog??? or have to ever been to East Palo alto??

Rajesh

@lacrima:
The fact that the turkish population here in germany is very large gives you many advantages, among them you can use your language in filling out the formulars or some officers can read your language too. But if you are not turkish then you do not have any advantage of this fact. An therefore one should not judge other people experience and feelings.

My opinion is that the main problem with germany is they were not immigration country for many years - german immigration concept was based on humanity - refugees and asylants were welcome here for so many years, but people, on the other side, with qualifikations and willing to work did not have chance to enter the country before Green Card. Many Germans are not aware that there are also foreigner people coming to Germany who are working and paying taxes.
I think the Points System, like in Australia and New Zealand, would bring much to the immigrants image...

Well, I mean, each country has its advantages and disadvantages..
I have a friend who worked in USA for 8 years(had a greencard) and now working in Germany and he finds Germany in many ways better than USA, so it depends on the person, home-land etc. whether the person feels himself/herself comfortable in that country.

This kind of "I am away from shity Germany and so happy, you guys are stupid by staying there" attitude is not acceptable because the topic itself is quite subjective in its nature and there is no single truth which will come out after starting such a discussion.

I am really curious how many days of vacation you get in your paradise Silicon Valley JJ ? or how many hours in a week you have to work ? one should also consider that life is not that long and one should work to live and should not live to work which is usually the case in USA.

Regards,

Lacrima

JJ is now happy and he wants to share that with us. :-) That is what actually matters.

In the case of Germany, particularly in western Germany, policies towards foreigners were always based on the assumption that they would one day go back to where they came from -- it was more an attitude of "we have to integrate them, rather than we want to." It was all regarded as a 'problem' and Germany's permanent denial mode of "we aren't a country of immigrants" has led to the fact that the image of Germans is largely determined by stereotypes and physical characteristics.

Efforts have been made to break that pattern of thinking by reforming citizenship laws. But, in principle, the view that someone who doesn't correspond to a stereotypical image of the Germans -- a Turkish man, for instance, with a German passport -- still largely dominates in society and stands in sharp contrast to countries such as Britain or France. The policies of the past decades, however, were programmed to backfire -- after all you can't follow them for so many years and play with prejudices and then expect people to suddenly give up racist attitudes.

Also, Germany has no concept of political correctness, unlike the Anglo-Saxon world. There's absolutely no understanding in Germany of the concept of integration and coexistence of different cultures. Though the Germans say they're rational and have laws for everything, when it comes to socio-political things like respect, tolerance, etc, there the Germans think having rules is wrong.

I believe the main problem is the definition of the nation in Germany (and many other European countries) is based on ethnicity - to be "German" means to be ethnically (and not politically) German. This has nothing to be immigration, France is also not an immigration country like USA or Canada, but to be "French" you don't need to be ethnically French.

On the other hand that's not something that's going to change - different European nations have different definitions of a nation and that's very deep, very old and very touchy. We can hope that wiping the borders in EU will result in greater mobility, more mixed marriages, more companies that are not really nation-bound, more multilingual/multicultural people and in time create a place where our kids will not be seen as "out of place" as today. For our generation it's a bit too late, I guess.

Man JJ, get these stuff outta head and concentrate on your career and new life. No one really bothers :-) and regarding German elections just because of last few weeks aggressive preparations by Gerhard Schroeder saved his party from heavy defeat. By the way, conservatives in any country are same, so what is the point?

I will have to tell you, one thing is for sure, not many foreign IT workers here will wish to surrender their passport for German passport unless the German Government introduces dual citizenship, which I think is outta question.

best wishes!
babloo

Having carefully gone through other contributions; there is no gain saying Germany
has no choice but open-up.Actually,it has been tilting towards that direction lately
(Immigration Law) though the people are very sluggish to respond;Ultimately they'll because the contribution of aliens(unskilled/highly skilled) cannot be overemphasize in any economy that want to be competitive in this age of globalization.

The Language as well weakens people whom would have radically influenced the psyche of the people.

Having said that the Germans would argue that too much influx of aliens would dilute their culture/take
away their jobs,women/men,benefit from their welfare system without contributing(GCs with GC stamps on their forehead excluded ;-)) among other things.Thus the need to protect against foreign elements.

But with enlightenment many would release that there is no cause for a sense of insecurity/inadequacy
or loss of control in this era.Thus integrate it's immigrant not only to be seen as workers but
in prestigious position as well.This would at the long run positively influence the attitude towards aliens.;-)

Actually, the German system can be said to be one of the best.
It's welfare,security,medical system can easily be remembered.

The European Dream :-)

Master onye,

I think you did pass your examination with highest grade by taking an English comprehensive test @ trust7. Thanks for your input.

I wish you write more of these astounding paragraphs in the future.

your fan :-)
babloo

Hi all,

I guess I missed getting my point across. Germany is great fro Germans. I have a problem being singled out for whatever checks at every turn because I am not pure Arian, some of you seems don't have a problem with that and that is perfectly ok.

And yes I know of East Palo Alto, I also know that part of Palo Alto which houses Standford University.

It is all about Opportunity and not just being able to earn a living. In Germany "Gastarbeiter ist Gastarbeiter, low tech or Hi tech". Und die Betonung ist auf GAST. The government is not interested in integrating the foreigners, other wise they would devise clear anti discrimination laws and not laws that are decided by individuals depending of their mood. Come on you guys, you all know it, most have been through it. Is there a concise immigration law for example?? let me answer that NO.

I was reading an article about the complain that Germany does not have many foreign born CEOs in the Managermagazin.de . And they said the only non-german CEO ist Ackermannn from the Deutsche Bank, he is swiss :-)) (he may have had german ancesters :-)))

And at last, any of you guys who have kids and know the german school system know also how discreminating it is, that also being said by every reputable international organization.

On that note I wish every one a nice weekend, mine hasn't started yet.

Cheers

Hi JJ,

thanks a lot for your message! That's my honest opinion, no sarcasm at all.

I respect your opinion, but nevertheless, I am happy that so many GCs see the things a little bit different :-)

And the whole discussion is one of the most interestings we have had in the last weeks.

So please go on with your 'Silicon Valley Reports'!

A nice weekend to all of you
und viele Grüsse aus Berlin
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I have high regards for you and know you are not here to make a few bucks, on the contrary. I also think you have given the GCs a voice and have and are trying your best. That is very commandable.

I know Germany is going through a tough time, they need to change and become global and open up their society and that can only be done by the government or the people who elect the government and by new laws and of course information to educate the society and not misinformation.

Unfortunately that will not happen any time soon in Germany, specailly when people like Beckstein and Stoiber etc., who are openly against foreigners, get more power and agitate the society more against foreigners. As Germany loses more low tech jobs the low educated part of the society becomes more hostile towards foreigners and I don't see a glimmer of hope how that is going to change.

I know Berlin is very liberal, I used to travel to Berlin when it was an island and was myself there when the wall came down. But Berlin and the liberals are not represantative of Germany.

nice WE ot everyone.

Cheers

http://stern.de/politik/deutschland/:Zeitungsbericht-Stoiber-Regierungsamt-/546521.html


that would be really something, him as foreign minister :-))

Good Luck Germany

Oh my God!

If Stoiber becomes foreign minister (Aussenminister), I have to look for another country to live in ;-)

He is not even able to speak 2 sentences without 'ääh'.

That's a nightmare.

The good thing with our country is, that I can write this here and I do have to fear any punishment. :-)

Again, I wish all of you a nice weekend!
Detlef

JJ, I like your spirit man. Germany is no dreamland like USA. In USA every five out of ten foreigners working in IT industry are in higher positions so you see the difference. In Germany the working culture is different, here people think you cannot concentrate more than 8 hours but realistically they also cannot concentrate 8 hrs continously. In USA people work out their ass that is why they were able to produce so much money. I like these words from Bush administration "Old Europe" if you take up the reality you will see they really had forethought about it.

Every 8 out of 10 Indian computer engineers working in Germany compared to 2 out of 10 in USA either are average graduate students or denied USA visa. To be frank all the bright university students in India are working in USA. If Germany is not interested to look into this matter carefuly and fix the integration problems ( like some idiotic politicians barking out against foreigners) then they will start losing the average students too.

I think Germans should see the world differently and forget their 19th and 20th century dominance as a strong power.

@babloo

uhhh, there is someone who understands me at least. I know US bashing is very popular in Germany, even in the main strean media, you hardly read anything positive. We should ask if any from our indian fellows are ITT Madras graduates? they all end up in US as you noted and for good reason, here the can run free and don't stumble of some jeaulos german civil servant. I said that before and say it again. Germany is good if you want to just collect a paycheck and can walk with your head down. And I stand to it.
The great times for Germany are over, now it is the turn of the Poles and others, of course with the financial help of US.


Cheers

@JJ

uhhh, there is someone who understands me at least.

Glad that you found a buddy equally fou.

We should ask if any from our indian fellows are ITT Madras graduates? they all end up in US as you noted and for good reason, here the can run free and don't stumble of some jeaulos german civil servant.

IIT (not ITT) Madras does have an honorable reputation. Presently it is ranked 3rd among India's top 20 engineering colleges. Most of the jobs are awarded during campus recruitment and there is hardly any company from non-english speaking country. Sadly most foreign companies are from US looking for top brains at cheap price. I am sure if given a chance many of them would like to experience working in europe.

@babloo

......are average graduate students or denied USA visa. To be frank all the bright university students in India are working in USA.

I am bit pissed off by your niais remarks. Are you trying to label us inferior just because we dont work in US? Not long ago all this bright-university-students threatened by recession/layoff were looking for a job in Germany.

To Akshay:

I am sure if given a chance many of them would like to experience working in europe.

That is why I stress europe should make the integration possible and keep pace with USA. It is good that you gave a suitable example for the things I said before.

I am bit pissed off by your niais remarks. Are you trying to label us inferior just because we dont work in US?

I am not targetting a single person here but the facts are like that.

Not long ago all this bright-university-students threatened by recession/layoff were looking for a job in Germany.

wow! where did you get these stats? Not even a single person I know who is working in USA wanted to find a job in Germany due to recession in USA (by the way recession was every where). The ones who were laid off were just those who do not have the right education (BE or ME/Msc Computer science) and hence they just master in one area e.g. in coaching centers and went for body-shopping and that is why I mentioned 2 out 10 were not fit for highly qualified jobs in USA.

Google these stuff you will find, what is happening in IT industry from past 3 or 4 decades. I don't think there is something wrong to call oneself an average student if he is an average student.

Smile please :-) and be proud of what you are.

As I said: be decent, avoid big mouth and I think babloo is right!

@JJ & babloo
If being exploited makes you feel good, even for a few more dollars, then go and get yourself exploited in the wild capitalist system of USA and please let us live our lives in Germany peacefully and less exploited.. ;)

For god's sake, what is better in USA regarding the working conditions, if we discard the fact that foreigners (in some occasions) face more hassle in the daily life in Germany ?
Dont you think that this "disadvantage" can be balanced with the fact that Germany's working environment is much more worker-friendly than in USA for almost same salary levels ? so where is the greatness of living in USA for god's sake ? can someone explain ?

Regards,

Lacrima

Lacrima:

For god's sake, what is better in USA regarding the working conditions, if we discard the fact that foreigners (in some occasions) face more hassle in the daily life in Germany ?

As I heard, the advantages are, you get more chances to improve your career and employer is more open to your ideas and you earn far better salaries for the same work you do here, you have more options to your IT career and for Indians language plays a great role in communication. The only disadvantage I see is you will get only 2 weeks of working holidays. Simply put in Germany you are made lazy.

Germany's working environment is much more worker-friendly than in USA for almost same salary levels ?

What do you mean by worker-friendly? Could you please give some examples?

so where is the greatness of living in USA for god's sake ? can someone explain ?

If you are talented in IT work, USA will be the best place for you to reach great heights and along that line it is the best country to integrate quickly and settle down with your family without hassles. Hardwork pays off in USA but not in Germany.

I only learned the differences after working here for almost 5 years and hearing some nice stories from Indian communities in USA. For me, Germany is SAG (Stop-and-Go). Listen today's news Mrs. Merkel is taking the highest post of Germany and it is really shame to see someone with that personality at this level. Instead of being more open to foreign societies in Germany people are geting more conservative and they still have the idea of promoting "Made in Germany" brand and who the hell wants to pay big price for that quality work.

Hi all,

I have been reading these arguments for a long time in trust7. I want to put some of my experiences which i have seen in USA and in Germany.

1. People who are living in USA(epsecially foreigner), 95% of them would prefer to live where their community lives. None would like live out their community coz they have a stong belief that they are safe if they are within their community. Does anyone would dare to live in other communities dominated areas? And You know what is in Germany.

2. Does any of ýour friends or families live in or near to downtown in any US cities. Here percentage is very very less.

3. Does any body dare to roam during the nights in Downtown areas?

4. After Sept 11th, check the conditions of foreigners, everywhere now and then RED Alert, some other alerts ... this and that alerts, Check how people are frustrated with these alerts..
By afternoon on sept 11th, none of the foreigner were present in their offices, everybody were hiding in their appartments for safety(I am one, a good Example for this situation). None were out their homes for at least one week? why this is when US is called FREE COUNTRY
In Germany, even police or a traffic police(whoever may be) ask for my passport i wont mind showing to them coz they do the same even with germans asking their identity card.I feel such check is not a race discrimination rather than feel like they are doing such for our Protection and i feel with all these secutity measure, Germany is like this? otherwise .....

5. I agred there is money, good opportunities, good scope of carrer development in US, but you dont feel that you are secured(I earned tripple what i am earning here). We have to be prepared for everything. You work like a machine, there should be also some mental peace in coz we are human being.
I opt germany, for good and secured life. After coming here, i have decided not to go back either to US or India. Coz i am free here.

6. In Germany i only miss Good Customer support. The only thing which makes me happy is, Even Germans feel the same about it. Even the germans feel bad about the people working in government Sector.So i am satisfied that i am not the only one suffering, but also native people are suffering.

This is my personal opinion which i wanted to share, these are not targeted to anyone's comment in this thread.

Regards
Deepak

Deepak,

Insecurity comes into the picture when more people are becoming poor and lack basic needs. Germany has the biggest middle class society for the moment and so are very few poor people but considering the current German politics, unemployment, reforms and their future policies expect that your own neighbour will turn voilent against you when he feel he is insecured. Do you think if there is something like 9/11 in Germany you will be safe?

Good that you mentioned about foreign communities in USA. In Germany you lack that so I think by your definition it should be more insecure here. Roaming in the nights is unsafe everywhere in the world unless you are away from the danger zones.

If you are young enough you should work like a machine that is good for your savings and you don't need to rely completely on pension funds. Being said that, of course it is one's own will to choose their life.

@Deepak,

I support you claim about US. Only when one lives in US & Germany, can really compare Germany and USA.

@babloo, have you ever been to US.

Regards

You see folks; when I introduced the topic :-

Posted on 25/08/2005 9:31 am
IT professional working in US(UK) Vs Germany. Pros and cons.
under the category Meeting the World.

I thought it was a topic meant for the future and actually it was but under a different
category; Integration and with different captions :-

.1 ) Hi from me :-) JJ ; and
.2 ) Hi From Srikanth


The European Dream.
Jeremy rifkin

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-6990318-0726343