Hello! I have asked already questions on the forum. And I appreciate answers given. But now, I would like to know something more about extra job, overworking since I have no such experience in DEU.

My company pretends to make workers overdo the regular jobs. It tries to find reasons for employees to work, for example, from 6:30 until 18:00. Or, from 8:00 until 20:00. Moreover, it tries to find job for weekends and holidays as well. However, this extra job would never be paid. Payment rate is always fix to monthly salary, it does not depend how much job you do. It would not be compensated in meanings of finances or time, vacations. Opposite, we are working much more than 40 hours per week as a rule.

If somenody knows please post a message. What kind of regulations for overworking in DEU? For IT specialist or whatever. What a possible way for handling such company management staff?

Thank you!

If you are Angestellter(worker) you are not allowed to work more than 10 hours/day and if you work more than company could be sued.

Thank you for reply DvD. I know that 10 hours per day, 5 day per week is the law. Is it correct? If so, are there any possibilities to make company (small company) to follow the law? Maybe reference to the law number or something like that.

Sure but I do not know the details. Try with lawyer.
On the other side company can always give you a nice legal kick in the a.. if you sue them.
so I would not sue the company while I am working there.

There is something called "Arbeitszeitgesetz" = law about the working hours. I have read it before some time. Few things that I remember: You are not allowed to work more than 40 hours/week when it is calculated average within 6 months. So you can work one week 50 hours, and one week 30 hours and it is ok. Also the maximum daily working time is 10,5 hours including lunch break (0,5) hours. According to law it is FORBIDDEN to work longer, exception is when you are on business trip within germany (12 hours) or business trip abroad (max. 14 hours). If you exceed these times and if you for example have some accident, then you are youself held responsible for any damage done ! You do not have to sue your company for that. There are many "behörden" institutions and even more people working there that are just waiting to find out such violations. This is their job and they are happy to do it :-) . You can make the anonymous "Anzeige" and if your company is registering the working hours anywhere then they are in deep trouble. If few people from your company do so, then it is almost sure.

Some more info (in german) about this rather typical stuff: http://www.recht-und-fuehrung.de/recht/recht-allgemein/topnews05317.html

The responsible institution is called gewerbeaufsichtsamt. Check internet and find your local gewerbeaufsichtsamt and report the violation.

Hi ,

there is a somewhat Related issue of taking Vacation Days remaining from the previous Year..

"Resturlaub aus dem Vorjahr ist im laufenden Jahr bis zum 31.03 zu nehmen"

Is this the same for all Companies in Germany?

Which Law says that and what are the Consequences if the the law is violated ?

This is actually standard practice, since companies don't want to have someone accumulate for example a year and then take it at once. If you don't take it, they will probably pay it to you in cash.

Yoiu need to find out the reason why they are pushing the extra hours, although illegal, some companies do it when it begins to get ugly, but they don't want to scare the employees (since they might leave). Others just do it to boost the profits, from this depends your negotiation position, if it's the latter you might be able to negotiate a pay increase, but they will milk you.

cheers,
a

Hi Chelex

I´m a little bit surprised with your question and I also find hard to find that nobody told you the more basic thing:

Take a look in your contract!!

By law in Germany your working time must be clearly stipulated in your contract. For example in my contract is also written how many extra hours can I make (of course in addition to the standart hours). Also every minute I make extra I´m payed for that OR can I take it as compensation time.

Please take a look first in your contract and tell us what it says. Maybe the things are more easy and you can speak with your boss based in YOUR contract and not under the base of the company is violating all the contracts and laws of Germany. This could be more difficult.

Hi !
Could anyone let me know if it is illegal to encash remaining vacations of a year..Normally I take full 30 vacations every year , but this year due to certain circumstances, i can't take all of them.
If my company allows me to work instead of taking vacations, then is it any kind of violation of any law or is it a normal practice.
Please let me know at the earliest.
Thanks a lot.

@chelex

My company pretends to make workers overdo the regular jobs.

In general, the cost of workforces in EU is the highest in the world. This is a handicap for competition with developing countries, where work costs are much less than EU. Therefore private companies lay off workers in EU and install more workers in developing countries, because it is more profit!

So employer's behaviour here is obvious. If you are against it, they can find a good reason to kick you off and hire another worker for a cheaper salary. Money rulez!

Strictly speaking, ie. per law, Ministry of Justice in Germany does not let you work more than 10 hours:
http://bundesrecht.juris.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994BJNE001100307.html

Apart from "boundary conditions", this rule is making the things difficult for employers in EU. In other countries like USA, China etc. the work conditions are more flexible and thus the cost of a worker for an employer is less. It is reasonable that they ask you work more and more. Don't forget, you are working in EU, not in China!

On the other side company can always give you a nice legal kick in the a.. if you sue them. So I would not sue the company while I am working there.

I agree with DvD here. There will be a company against you, not a person. A company has power, has good lawyers, and has initiative to pay the money they want. If you don't accept what they find, they will replace you with another person who accepts what they want. There are thousands of jobless outside, who is willing to work with a salary less than yours and with no complaint!

According to law it is FORBIDDEN to work longer by cedomir

True. But the term "work time" is determined by the timeslot between when you stamp in and stamp out. Technically speaking, you can be asked to work longer in which you stamp out at the end of 10th hour but you continue to work with no compensation.

@pasko
"Resturlaub aus dem Vorjahr ist im laufenden Jahr bis zum 31.03 zu nehmen" Is this the same for all Companies in Germany? Which Law says that and what are the Consequences if the the law is violated ?

Yes, if you cannot take the holiday in a year fully, you must have to get it as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I am not aware of a law stating that.

@aalvarez
You need to find out the reason why they are pushing the extra hours, although illegal

It's clear why. Euro is expensive against US dollar. Economy in Germany is bad. Work costs are too high (taxes are high). Strict laws for work conditions (no more than 10 hours per day etc). These conditions are bad when comparing to the countries where work costs are less. Therefore new government intends to loose work protection (Kündigungsschutz), increase VAT (16% -> 19%), cancel home contributions from state (Eigenheimzulage), privatized pension (Riester-Rente), reduced unemployment benefits (Hartz-IV).

@YO
By law in Germany your working time must be clearly stipulated in your contract. For example in my contract is also written how many extra hours can I make

The items in work contract are "overriden" by special agreements with unions or by later decisions of company, and it applies to all workers. They can cancel overtime pay. Latest decision "wins".

@Serene
Could anyone let me know if it is illegal to encash remaining vacations of a year..

This is a technical stuff mostly related to unions, I think. Due to your heavy load at work, practically you won't have time to deal with such conditions.

Come on folks. Due to capitalist system you have practically no right to fight against your rights coming from law. No one has to apply the law 100%. German economy is bad, everyone is saving more, reducing cost, laying off people, deploying workforces out to developing countries; and you want to get more, when compared to employer's wish.

If you don't accept the condition a company offers, you get a bad reputation. This is a reality. They kick you out and can find another person with less salary. Think about the unemployment rate in Germany.

I am a little realistic, sorry.

Regards,
Klenze17.

@Klenze17

"where work costs are much less than EU. Therefore private companies lay off workers in EU and install more workers in developing countries"

I don't think that is right justification to violate the law, or you think that is the only right way face the competition?

I do understand the competition with developing countries.

@instructor,

"where work costs are much less than EU. Therefore private companies lay off workers in EU and install more workers in developing countries"

I don't think that is right justification to violate the law, or you think that is the only right way face the competition?

I do understand the competition with developing countries.

Do you think that violating law (being asked to work beyond the law limits), but having your job is more critical than being laid off? I suggest to think about it. I personally would choose "the offered law violation", because being laid off/being jobless has worse psychological effect. We all know that being jobless is the worst you can have in your life.

Lay off/deploy work out of EU for more profit is the longest way. The first step starts with being asked to work more, no matter how. Until somebody makes profit/faces competition. Money doesn't listen to law. Instead, it changes it (Kündigungsschutz), or replaces it (exceeding the work limit stated in law and/or work contract).

Klenze17.

"Money doesn't listen to law. Instead, it changes it (Kündigungsschutz), or replaces it (exceeding the work limit stated in law)."

Klenze17, dostum.. ;) with all respect.. but these words start to sound slogans of "Wild Capitalists".
I see the fact that money rules.. but when it rules "too much".. it suddenly becomes inhuman and produces slavery.. therefore governments tend to regulate it which is quite ok.. Wild capitalism produces only losers and winners.. and losers really lose everyhthing.. (homeless people, no access to healthcare etc.. )

On the other hand, so called High-Wage countries do not have to necessarily lower the salary levels in order to compete with the countries where governments turn a blind eye to the abusement of their citizens by the capital.. (See China, India..) High-wage countries can keep their salary levels, if they can stay innovative..

China and India are living what Europe lived in 19th/20th Century after the industralization.. Labour will notice his power and play the game according to rules soon..(Dont ask me how soon.. ;) but this will take time.. Capitalism has a known cycle.. and it will repeat the same cycle in India and China, till the labour notices his power..

There is also an interesting idea discussed by the "left-wing" think-thanks which basicly states the cooperation/globilization of the labour force in the world, in the same way the capital does.. Workers of the different nations should be in contact with each other and cooperate in order to define labour-cost rates all over the world.. my modest guess is that this will defnitely happen in the coming century with the help of the information age..

Bottom line: Money rules but it needs to be regulated for not being inhuman.. if it is regulated all over the world.. capital has also no chance but obey it..

Regards,

Lacrima

Klenze17, dostum.. with all respect.. but these words start to sound slogans of "Wild Capitalists".

Lacrima my friend, my two eyes Finally, these are not my opinions, instead, these are the things I have been observing and experiencing.

I see the fact that money rules.. but when it rules "too much".. it suddenly becomes inhuman and produces slavery.. therefore governments tend to regulate it which is quite ok.. Wild capitalism produces only losers and winners.. and losers really lose everyhthing.. (homeless people, no access to healthcare etc.. )

Let's take the regulations of governments in Germany:

1. Riester-Rente is operational since 2002.
Reason: government has no budget (because average age of people in Germany is getting very high, and the country wouldn't have had budget to pay salaries for all retired people in future).
Impact: Your affective salary is less in the amount of what pay for privatised pension.

2. Hartz-IV Law is operational since 2002.
Reason: government has no budget. They cannot pay unemployment salary for everyone.
Impact: Now you get less unemployment salary if you get laid off. You will live with less money if you are jobless.

3. VAT will be increased from 16% to 19%.
Reason: government has no budget. They want to decrease the tax weight on economy.
Impact: You will buy the things more expensive.
What you earn effectively will be less, starting soon (2007?).

4. Kündigungsschutz will be loose.
Reason: Companies complain too much about excessive work costs.
Impact: Now it will be easier to lay off people.

Do you think these impacts are quite ok, for the welfare for all the people in Germany as a whole?

China and India are living what Europe lived in 19th/20th Century after the industralization.. Labour will notice his power and play the game according to rules soon..(Dont ask me how soon.. but this will take time.. Capitalism has a known cycle.. and it will repeat the same cycle in India and China, till the labour notices his power..

Very well described. In other words, until China/India economy has become equal to USA, these transition process (work overdue, deploying workforce out of EU) will go on. They say China's economy will overtake USA by 2040.

Reason is, that all investors (among which are the companies in Germany) do their investments out of EU to reduce their costs to make more profit.

In 30 years, computers won't be as cheap as now.

Workers of the different nations should be in contact with each other and cooperate in order to define labour-cost rates all over the world..

My personal opinion why we got hired, is, another way of decreasing work costs in developed countries. It is expensive to hire a native worker (educational period for example).

Bottom line: Money rules but it needs to be regulated for not being inhuman..

Fully agreed. But the "system" is not thinking like we do...

klenze17

@Klenze17

I thought anything "beyond the law limits" is violation of law. As you can see still i've lot to learn.

About losing job, i lost my job two times. So i think i know little about being unemployed, but i still donot think forcing people to work longer. I belive in encouraging people to work longer will help in many cases. Just last week i worked over 90 hours, because i liked my company/boss and without any extra pay. I think this really works, but forcing people to work longer will not be productive, if not atleast will back-fire in future. It is just my opinion and even experience you could consider.

How do you think?

@Lacrima:

"On the other hand, so called High-Wage countries do not have to necessarily lower the salary levels in order to compete with the countries where governments turn a blind eye to the abusement of their citizens by the capital.. (See China, India..)"

What makes You think that citizens are being abused in India ?

Europe has to face the competition from India, due to the fact that:

A. The cost-of-living/salaries in India is much lower than Europe, hence Companies prefer to get the same value/service at a lower price.

B. There is abundant availablitiy of skills/resources in India.

C. Work force in India is much more flexible.


This has nothing to do with any kind of abuse of citizens.

If/when Your home country Turkey joins the EU, You can very well expect a lot of manufacturing work to move to Turkey. This will be due to the fact that cheap labor is available there and not because Turkey is abusing its citizens ;)

@instructor,

About losing job, i lost my job two times. So i think i know little about being unemployed, but i still donot think forcing people to work longer. I belive in encouraging people to work longer will help in many cases. Just last week i worked over 90 hours, because i liked my company/boss and without any extra pay. I think this really works, but forcing people to work longer will not be productive, if not atleast will back-fire in future. It is just my opinion and even experience you could consider.

How do you think?

I feel very sorry that you experienced it twice. I haven't experienced by myself, but in my past a lot of my work colleagues have been made redundant, in one day the half of my department vapourised, also that fear came into me whole my life. So I can I understand what you experienced.

As I stated in my reply to Lacrima's post, the things I addressed are not my opinions but my observations. In that aspect of course I totally agree with you, what you said above. But private entertainment don't care. Most of us are not in management position, that's maybe why these facts are not acceptable for entry-position workers like us (in general).

I totally disagree with all radical regulations w.r.t. cost reduction, but the system doesn't think like that. Since we cannot change the system, practically we have no word other than amen.

@nitin.malhot,

What makes You think that citizens are being abused in India ?

Although the direct audience is not me, I would like to share what I have understood from Lacrima's post:

Turkey, also my home country, is also a developing country like India. Very roughly said (of course investments, workforces and economy growth of Turkey cannot be compared with India, you are having a huge advance).

In general, developing countries have more flexible work conditions. The regulations done basically by state. In that respect Lacrima might have said it. In that respect we the Turkish citizens are also "abused", roughly generalized.

No matter what happens where, workforces in developed countries (we are also among them) are threatened by a possible job loss, in general, because money goes to where it can be more profitable.

Regards,
Klenze17.

Turkey, also my home country, is also a developing country like India. Very roughly said (of course investments, workforces and economy growth of Turkey cannot be compared with India, you are having a huge advance).

In general, developing countries have more flexible work conditions. The regulations done basically by state. In that respect Lacrima might have said it. In that respect we the Turkish citizens are also "abused", roughly generalized.


Very well said Klenze17.. thanks.. that was also my point..

I just want to also clarify some small details..
Let's not talk about the fairy-tales of great India where we hear here enough of it. If my country had a billion people, it would also have a lot of engineers and clever people from that population.. populations always have a Gaussian distribution regarding the personal skills of all kind.. (meaning that 1% of 60 million makes 600.000 and %1 of 1 billion makes 10.000.000 so no suprise that India has many clever people out there because their whole population is also huge.. so there is no magic about it.. nor any greatness of India)

Going back to the fact of abusement in 3rd World( including also my home country, if that makes you feel better..)

If a human being is working 18-20 hours a day for a payment which he can hardly use for survival.. without the gurantee of any proper health-care access and security.. and if these working conditions are accepted and supported by a government officially.. sorry but that government/country is helping the capital to abuse his citizens, if not he is directly doing the abusement.. so that is a fact..

Do you think it is a profitable way of competition , just offering a cheap labour to the capital ? Who do you think getting the biggest part of profit cake ? the workers offering the cheap labour ? Real added value goes to the capital of the first world.. I would never be proud of my country's cheap labour.. I would just pity for those people and be angry to the people who let them work in those conditions.. I would only be proud of my country's innovativeness and the great conditions of work that it is offering to his citizens..

Regards,

Lacrima

@Klenze17

"I feel very sorry that you experienced it twice. I haven't experienced by myself, but in my past a lot of my work colleagues have been made redundant, in one day the half of my department vapourised, also that fear came into me whole my life. So I can I understand what you experienced."

You don't have to feel sorry for my jobloss, infact i was happy to have two and half months holidays and to spend/enjoy time with my family after soo many years working. I just wanted to say that i do have experience like that.

@others

I also donot think it is good idea to compare one country/religion to another. Since every country has it's own problems (social/economical/political) and which depends on the tradition/mentality of the people and region the country belongs. Of course somethings can be little bit better but those issues as i think depends on the economy of that country and may be other issues as well.

@klenz:

"In general, developing countries have more flexible work conditions. The regulations done basically by state. In that respect Lacrima might have said it. In that respect we the Turkish citizens are also "abused", roughly generalized."

What does 'flexible work conditions' have to do with 'abusement of citizens' ? I missed Your whole point.

In my point of view, being flexible is the need of the hour. I dont want to say anything about Turkey, but 'flexible work conditions' in India definitely does not translate to 'abusement of citizens'.


@Lacrima:

"just want to also clarify some small details..
Let's not talk about the fairy-tales of great India where we hear here enough of it."

Upto You if You want to term 'facts' as fairy tales


"If my country had a billion people, it would also have a lot of engineers and clever people from that population.. populations always have a Gaussian distribution regarding the personal skills of all kind.. (meaning that 1% of 60 million makes 600.000 and %1 of 1 billion makes 10.000.000 so no suprise that India has many clever people out there because their whole population is also huge.. so there is no magic about it.. nor any greatness of India)"

I think You are taking this very seriously. Nobody is saying that Turkey is not great so You do not need to defend.


"Going back to the fact of abusement in 3rd World( including also my home country, if that makes you feel better..)"

Has nothing to do with me feeling better. You are just stating facts here, which we all welcome.


"If a human being is working 18-20 hours a day for a payment which he can hardly use for survival.. without the gurantee of any proper health-care access and security.. and if these working conditions are accepted and supported by a government officially.. sorry but that government/country is helping the capital to abuse his citizens, if not he is directly doing the abusement.. so that is a fact.."

I assume Your above comment is about Turkish government. Because there is no OFFICIAL support for such things in India.


"Do you think it is a profitable way of competition , just offering a cheap labour to the capital?"

Definitely it is profitable, atleast for the 3rd world countries where employment is increasing ;)

You are loooking at this in the wrong way. Look at this example: A candy produced in Germany costs 30 cents (due to high wages, high social costs etc.) and the same candy produced in Turkey costs 10 cents (thanks to the cheap hourly labor rate, low social costs etc.). So the candy company prefers to have the production done in Turkey and not Germany. This has nothing to do with the fact that Turkish government is allowing abusement of its citizens or squeezing them till the last drop of blood or any of the that sorts.

I understand that the candy labor in Germany is loosing job because of this but then this concept is not new and has been practiced since ages and even within Germany. With the reunification of Germany, lots of un-skilled jobs moved to East Germany (thanks to the low wages there) but that has nothing to do with German government abusing its citizens in East.

Same is with EU. Electrolux just announced that it will close its AEG plant in Germany and move it to Poland. Now You might say that Polish government is abusing its citizens but You know very well that it is not correct and is instead due to economics of scale.


"Who do you think getting the biggest part of profit cake ? the workers offering the cheap labour ?"

The workers are getting a living out of it, if not 99.99% of company's profit.


"Real added value goes to the capital of the first world.. I would never be proud of my country's cheap labour.. I would just pity for those people and be angry to the people who let them work in those conditions.. I would only be proud of my country's innovativeness and the great conditions of work that it is offering to his citizens.."

We are not discussing pride in any country but we are discussing economic facts. But its upto You to feel whatever You like to about Your own country, proud or pity.

It definitely has a positive effect on developing countries where the employment rate is increasing due to this micro-macro economics. For West, the cost of 3rd world service/goods is cheaper as compared to their own country but in those 3rd world countries the so called cheaper wages are enough to put food on someone's plate.


So look at it from a broader prespective and come out of the narrow thinking that low wage labor translates into abusement.


On the lighter side: Just read that the Turkish football team and the Turkish security guards bashed up the Swiss football team after having lost the football match to them. Definitely a good way of fighting competition ;)

"come out of the narrow thinking that low wage labor translates into abusement."

Sorry.. maybe I am too human to come out of that thinking.. I made my point clearly and I have nothing to add..

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima:

Sorry but Your thinking has nothing to do with humanity or You being more human than anyone else in this world.

Because if You were thinking humanly, then You would have realized that this micro-macro economics is bringing hope/employment/food/basic-necessasities to those people in the 3rd world countries who have previously been stricken with poverty thanks to lack-of-opportunities/high-unemployment.

"Because if You were thinking humanly, then You would have realized that this micro-macro economics is bringing hope/employment/food/basic-necessasities to those people in the 3rd world countries"

ahh.. is it ? I always overlook the fact that what a nice creature this micro/macro economics is.. it takes care of the all necesasities and serves for the best of all human-beings..

I would better grow my own vegetables and live in peace instead of working 18 hours a day for a payment of 1 dollar a day in a subsidiary of first world giant company which brings me no wealth anyway.. and steals my life from me.. If I dont have a life to live.. and If I just have to work and work for simply nothing.. what does hope/employment mean actually to me ? (see the example of adidas workers in China producing shoes, just the tip of the iceberg in the abusement of the human beings by capital in Asia.. dont think only in the IT-Field.. the real industry is much more than IT)

in such a case where I grow my own vegetables.. I can at least enjoy my life and still have my stomach full, if that is the only thing that matters.. ;)

Regards,

Lacrima

one dollar in china has much more value than in germany or usa. Perhaps it can buy atleast two times of food, better than having nothing to eat the whole day without employment.
Even though nike or similar company workers are getting peanuts, the company infact is paying taxes to that country for its profit, a simple easy understadable concept! to help weak emerging economy. Things does not change in days, it takes years.

Hey, look at this IT specialists talking about economics! huh, give me a break!

@babloo

the better people think about themselves and the more they point on others, how stupid they are, the more they need the help of a psychiatrist.

If I would know one, I would recommend him to you.

Detlef

well said, Detlef! I like the phrase.

@ babloo

Good reply! At least you seem to be able to take and not only to hit.

Would like to meet you one of those days.

By
Detlef

naturally! who doesn't need that kind of thing these days. This world is so complicated you know.

@Lacrima:

"ahh.. is it ? I always overlook the fact that what a nice creature this micro/macro economics is.. it takes care of the all necesasities and serves for the best of all human-beings.."

at least for the labor in 3rd world countries, if not all human beings ;)

"I would better grow my own vegetables and live in peace instead of working 18 hours a day for a payment of 1 dollar a day in a subsidiary of first world giant company which brings me no wealth anyway.."

Again, what does this have to do with You being more human ? in contrast to Your earlier thoughts on this whole discussion.


"and steals my life from me.. If I dont have a life to live.. and If I just have to work and work for simply nothing.. what does hope/employment mean actually to me ? (see the example of adidas workers in China producing shoes, just the tip of the iceberg in the abusement of the human beings by capital in Asia.. dont think only in the IT-Field.. the real industry is much more than IT)"

Nobody is stealing anyone's life here. Stop being a human right activist without a cause ;) Labor in 3rd world countries (who were previously stricken with poverty) are now able to earn a decent living, send their children to school, have access to basic medical facilities, provide for their basic necessasities. These labor will definitely not buy Your human abusement story. For them it is emancipation from poverty.


"in such a case where I grow my own vegetables.. I can at least enjoy my life and still have my stomach full, if that is the only thing that matters.."

Thats what they are doing - Earn a living by working and providing for their means. Growing vegetables does not provide medical-care, school-for-their-children, clothes etc.

You sitting in Germany think that 1€ job in 3rd world country must be abusement. But in reality it is enough for the 3rd world labor to provide for his family's basic necessasities (by just working 8-10 hours a day, just like You do here).

In addition is the point made by imranahmadkhan that those company pay taxes, invest in infrastructure, which adds to the development of the country as a whole.

@nitin
I have a problem with the capitalist system in the whole, although I forcefully became part of it.. I guess that is my main issue..

If you can gurantee that the workers in 3rd world work only 8-10 hours a day and get paid properly(meaning that earning "enough" money for the conditions of the country in which they are living) and have access to proper healthcare, then I am more than happy for them.. but this is most of the time not the case.. and abusement is always there..

An ideal solution would look like this: (which will unfortunately not happen in the near future)

-------------------------------------
All 3rd world countries form an UN like organization and they sign a treaty to define labour conditions for the Investors coming from the 1st World (and/or "outside" ) In that treaty, they define hourly minimum rates for specific type of jobs which will be created by the Investors in their country. Those hourly rates will be (considerably) less than the ones in 1st world, thus making the investment still attractive for the Investors but it will be higher than the ones which they currently offer. If an Investor refuses the conditions then he will not be allowed to invest in any of 3rd World countries so that he will not have any option to invest in any other part of the world. The abusement will be avoided and the investors will still invest in 3rd world because the labour will still be far more cheaper than the one in 1st world.
--------------------------------------

This idea will never happen because all governments are under the strong lobby of the capital owners.. and 3rd World governments are extremely corrupted.. unfortunately..

I should maybe start a speech beginning with the words "I have a dream" like Martin Luther King did... but that is my dream.. more people living in a "more human" way on our planet..

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima:

"If you can gurantee that the workers in 3rd world work only 8-10 hours a day and get paid properly(meaning that earning "enough" money for the conditions of the country in which they are living) and have access to proper healthcare, then I am more than happy for them.. but this is most of the time not the case.. and abusement is always there.."

Nobody can guarantee this. This cannot be guaranteed in Germany (reason why this discussion started initially), let alone any 3rd world country. You are forgetting that Capitalist system engulfs the West and there are soooo many labor abuses happening here.

All I can say is that You are born on a wrong planet. Try Jupiter next time, I heard they dont know what Capitalism means there ;)

My sincere suggestion would be to start realizing Your dream by going back and doing something for Your home country, where abuses of multiple kinds (not just labor) are happening.

Regards,
Nitin.

"My sincere suggestion would be to start realizing Your dream by going back and doing something for Your home country, where abuses of multiple kinds (not just labor) are happening."

Still comparing the countries.. ??? I am trying to discuss the problem on a theoritical level without mentioning country names.. and you are still emphasizing "my home country", "your home country".. if you desperately want to compare the countries.. then here you go..

Turkey is TODAY couple of decades ahead of India considering all the conditions.. I must also admit that India has a better potential for future development.. but you forced me to do this comparison in today's conditions..

And by the way, the suggestion "going back" suits you better than it does me. Considering the fact that your home country's "people living under the poverty line" percentage.

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima:

"Still comparing the countries.. ??? I am trying to discuss the problem on a theoritical level without mentioning country names.. and you are still emphasizing "my home country", "your home country".. if you desperately want to compare the countries.. then here you go.."

Oooouch. I seem to have hit You at the wrong place. You seem to be really angry now.

If You havent realize, it was You who started naming countries and I just followed Your suit. I hope now You understand who is desperate for what ;)


"Turkey is TODAY couple of decades ahead of India considering all the conditions.. I must also admit that India has a better potential for future development.. but you forced me to do this comparison in today's conditions.."

Mind sharing how is Turkey much ahead of India? Or You meant ahead in knocking-at-EU-door-for-membership, living-in-ancient-time-rule-of-having-multiple-wives, torturing-its-citizens, torturing-kurds, corruption-in-government, religious-fundamentalism, religious-extremism etc etc ?


"And by the way, the suggestion "going back" suits you better than it does me. Considering the fact that your home country's "people living under the poverty line" percentage"

It was You who was dreaming on this forum not me ;) I just showed You the way of realizing Your dreams. But it seems that You are offended in going back to Your home country. Wonder why...

Its funny that You start naming other countries and start giving wrong examples but get sooo offended, hurt and angry when Your country is named here.

You need to grow up...

I named a country because China and India are most well known names for cheap labour.. those names were part of the discussion.. thats why they were mentioned..

Read the discussion from the beginning and see how you react by talking about Turkey where it had nothing to do with the discussion.. you did it because I just happen to come from that country.. just read your first posting in this thread and see who first wrote offensive sentences regarding a particular country.. I actually named two countries "India and China" and you were too ready to defend a particular name out of that group..

Your grandgrandson will see maybe some bright days of India but your nation is suffering today under poverty.. go there and do smt.. if you love it so much.. people live there like animals and you criticise some fine details regarding the human right deficits of my home country.. the problem is that India first must reach a level where people can be called "humans" regarding the living standards and conditions.. and then the discussion of "human rights" will also start there.. my home country is "thanks god" far above that level.. and that is why we deal now only with the fine details..


Regards,

Lacrima

Your grandgrandson will see maybe some bright days of India but your nation is suffering today under poverty...

You are right, this is bitter truth about india, but someone has to start somewhere. Better late than never.

people live there like animals and you criticise some fine details regarding the human right deficits of my home country..

They dont. Only animals are known to be screwing four females under same roof.

my home country is "thanks god" far above that level.. and that is why we deal now only with the fine details..

Really??? I for sure can't remember hearing the phrase scheiß Inder in Germany.

Guys.. stop provoking me and let's not start another childish game of my country beats your country..

Nitin owes me an apology, as he was the first one who was bashing my home country just because I mentioned the names of India and China in a general discussion of cheap labour and I owe also to my Indian fellows an apology.. peace ok ?

Regards,

Lacrima

@Lacrima:

"Read the discussion from the beginning and see how you react by talking about Turkey where it had nothing to do with the discussion.."

Of course it has something to do with this discussion. Turkey is also a country in Asia and is 3rd world country with a long abusing (definitely in labor but in also areas as well) history. So why exclude Turkey ?


"you did it because I just happen to come from that country.. just read your first posting in this thread and see who first wrote offensive sentences regarding a particular country.."

I just read and there is nothing offensive I wrote. I mentioned that a lot of manufacturing jobs will move to Turkey. Do You find this offensive ? ;)


"Your grandgrandson will see maybe some bright days of India but your nation is suffering today under poverty.."

He will definitely see them, just like I am Thanks for Your good wishes for my grandson.

"go there and do smt.."

I am going there next week and will actually do a lot of things and not just smth.

At least I do not get sooo offended/angry when told about going back to Your home country. Still wondering why You got so angry when I said that You should go back to Your country, is it because Your family back home wants to marry You to a 50 years old guy who already has 3 wives and 2 dozen children ?


"if you love it so much.. people live there like animals and you criticise some fine details regarding the human right deficits of my home country.."

Animals are those who look at their sisters with lustful eyes and even marry them (very common practice in Turkey). Animals are those who massacred millons of Armenias (who other than the Turkish).


"the problem is that India first must reach a level where people can be called "humans" regarding the living standards and conditions.. and then the discussion of "human rights" will also start there.. my home country is "thanks god" far above that level.. and that is why we deal now only with the fine details.."

Wake up from Your dream and Your sleep. Human rights in Turkey are the worse thats why Turkey has not been admitted to EU so far and is till begging for the membership.

Yes Turkey has been improving, simply because of immense pressure from EU and US, which is more of a shame than pride.

Makes me laugh that You call 'knocking-at-EU-door-for-membership, living-in-ancient-time-rule-of-having-multiple-wives, torturing-its-citizens, torturing-kurds, corruption-in-government, religious-fundamentalism, religious-extremism ' fine details. But at least You acknowledged them.

@Lacrima:

"Guys.. stop provoking me and let's not start another childish game of my country beats your country.."

Its You who started pin-pointing. It was never a question of which country is better than which, until You started showing the Turkish animal inside You and started writing garbage.

"Nitin owes me an apology, as he was the first one who was bashing my home country just because I mentioned the names of India and China in a general discussion of cheap labour and I owe also to my Indian fellows an apology.. peace ok ?
"

Apology for what ? For writing that Turkish football team bashed Swiss football team or for mentioning that manufacturing jobs will move to Turkey if/when they join EU?

First learn to refrain from naming other countries and passing un-educated remarks about them, before expecting any kind of respect.

I dont enjoy arguing with females so this can be my last reply if You refrain from writing anything provocotive.

Nitin,

Turkey is in all means in a better condition than India.. why are you still prolonging this discussion ? there is no sense in discussing the facts..

Regards,

Lacrima

"I dont enjoy arguing with females so this can be my last reply if You refrain from writing anything provocotive."

By the way.. I am not female..

Regards,

Lacrima

I thought La Crima is feminine :-)

"Lacrima" is originally latin(you can see a similar variation of the same word in Spanish/Portuguese/Romanian like Lagrima )

and means simply "tears"..

Regards,

Lacrima who already told at least 4 times in trust7 that he is not female..

@Lacrima:

"Turkey is in all means in a better condition than India.. why are you still prolonging this discussion ? there is no sense in discussing the facts.."

What makes You think that Turkey is in better condition than India ? I asked You this question before also but You never replied. This world does not run on Your gut feelings so stop being a child and keep on insisting that Turkey is better than India.

Though I am absolutely convinced that there is no 100% approach to compare 2 countries, specially India (with its size, population, history) with Turkey.

And change Your name because it strongly suggests that You are a female ;)

"Though I am absolutely convinced that there is no 100% approach to compare 2 countries, specially India (with its size, population, history) with Turkey."

That is it.. you sound more reasonable now..

"And change Your name because it strongly suggests that You are a female"

It does not sound female to me.. without seing your innocent looking face at right hand side Nitin would be for me very well a female name..

Regards,

Lacrima who is proud of his nickname

Hi *,

I think we are going beyond the main topic and talking about something quite different stuff now.

@nitin.malhot:
What does 'flexible work conditions' have to do with 'abusement of citizens' ? I missed Your whole point.

Lacrima seems to chose the wrong word. We can formulate it "work rights are worse". If it had been better, capitalist system wouldn't have made more profit out of it.

On the lighter side: Just read that the Turkish football team and the Turkish security guards bashed up the Swiss football team after having lost the football match to them. Definitely a good way of fighting competition

I don't think your way of giving examples is good. We are discussing about the things to a wide audience here on internet. You just pick up a detail and localize the discussion. Anyone can also pick up a detail about your culture. Please don't. We are finally friends on this earth.

West, the cost of 3rd world service/goods is cheaper as compared to their own country but in those 3rd world countries the so called cheaper wages are enough to put food on someone's plate.

Definitely true. A symbiotic system. Win-win situation. But I don't think capitalist system make investments for someone's plate, instead it does for more profit.

In summer 2005 England and USA discussed to drop the debts of countries in Africa. Do you think they do that for someone's plate?

@Akshay,
They dont. Only animals are known to be screwing four females under same roof.

You point to Islamic marriages. In Turkey marrying four females is forbidden.

@nitin.malhot,
Mind sharing how is Turkey much ahead of India? Or You meant ahead in knocking-at-EU-door-for-membership, living-in-ancient-time-rule-of-having-multiple-wives, torturing-its-citizens, torturing-kurds, corruption-in-government, religious-fundamentalism, religious-extremism etc etc ?

Nitin, I ask you as a friend from Trust7 to stop to talk about this stuff, because 1. what you know and write here is mostly wrong, 2. it's not the right place to talk.

@Lacrima,
Turkey is in all means in a better condition than India..

Please don't say that. These things are very sensitive stuff and here is the not the right thing to talk. There are a lot of Indian friends of us here.

I have a lot of Indian friends around the world, I know the culture a little and the people. I also find them very nice and friendly. Lacrima, Nitin, please don't convert a discussion for a wide audience to a local discussion.

Have a nice evening,
Klenze17.

@Lacrima:

"That is it.. you sound more reasonable now.."

I had to, in reply to Your more reasonable and normal behaviour. Should teach You/us not to compare 2 different countries, atleast not Turkey with India.

"It does not sound female to me.. without seing your innocent looking face at right hand side Nitin would be for me very well a female name"

Of course it would not to You, after all its Your name ;) I just went by the meaning of Lacrima meaning "tears", which definitely sounds feminine. But hey nice to learn that Lacrima could also be used for males. Its good that You have put the 'male' sign in Your profile here on trust7.com, at least now You would not have to explain again and again that You are not a female ;)



@Klenz:

"I think we are going beyond the main topic and talking about something quite different stuff now.
"

Totally agree with You. Wasnt the motive but the discussion took that turn.

"Lacrima seems to chose the wrong word. We can formulate it "work rights are worse". If it had been better, capitalist system wouldn't have made more profit out of it."

Again I dont agree with You. Profit is being made because the cost is low. This necessarily does not have to do anything with work rights.

"Definitely true. A symbiotic system. Win-win situation. But I don't think capitalist system make investments for someone's plate, instead it does for more profit."

Nobody here said that that Capitalist system is investing to fill someone's plate. I did mention that its result is definitely more-employment/opportunities for 3rd world countries, which is a very positive development. It is emancipation from poverty for the labor in 3rd world countries and has nothing to do with abusement.

"In summer 2005 England and USA discussed to drop the debts of countries in Africa. Do you think they do that for someone's plate?"

Sorry but this has nothing to do with low-wages/competition from 3rd world countries. Dont deviate from the topic, like it happened previously.

"Nitin, I ask you as a friend from Trust7 to stop to talk about this stuff, because 1. what you know and write here is mostly wrong, 2. it's not the right place to talk."

You have to realize that these comments are coming out as a reply to offensive comments from Lacrima. As I mentioned before, refrain from naming countries and passing uneducated remarks about them if You expect the same.

" Lacrima, Nitin, please don't convert a discussion for a wide audience to a local discussion."

Once again, stop naming countries and passing un-educated remarks about them and You would not give any one a chance to do the same to You.

I do not enjoy getting into such discussions but hate when others name India and pass offensive comments about it, specially without knowing the real ground facts. My sincere suggestion would be to first look at Yourselves/Your-country before flying around un-educated criticism about others.

I would be happy to end this discussion here with a lesson learnt for everyone.

"I would be happy to end this discussion here with a lesson learnt for everyone."

I would also be happy to end it..

Regards,

Lacrima

Oh no, not again .. (

Please don't stop the argument ...

Without arguments this site is almost dead ... I check this site regularly for reading these messages ... That's the only entertainment that I have in my otherwise routine, boring, and depressing life ....

So please keep the arguments alive ... and start new ones occasionally ...

And I would request more people to participate in the arguments ...

suggestion:

Maybe Detlef could start a new forum for such arguments. He could then remove the threads that are too old. I am sure nobody would be interested in reading it a second time. But I do read old messages when there are no new ones to read ... but still its ok ...