Hello guys,

I am sure everyone who already applied or is planning to apply for Einbuergerung must have thought about the Pros and Cons about this topic. For me personally, its an issue rather than a topic
Reasons being that:
1) I am already here since 8 years but I am not planning to stay in Germany for more than another 1-2 years rather I plan to go back to my home country.

2) My home country has no agreement with Germany to continue the Pension acoount over there, which means if I take Citizenship and leave Germany then I will get my pension only after 67 years of age. Under this case there are 3 or more possibilities:
a) Either I am not live at 67 age
b) Either Germany has no more money to pay Pension amount
c) The pension amount which I will get at 67 years of age will only be around 400~600 Euros(If I leave Germany and stop contributing anymore to my this Pension account). In this case, in year 2050 I won't be able to buy even peanuts and a beer with this amount. Just kidding but I hope you understand my point

3) If I don't take Citizenship, rather go to my home country and apply for pension amount I will approximately get around 50000 Euros(100% of my contributions) back which I can happily use in my country.
a) Advantage: I can use this amount to make a fixed deposit Or invest this amount somewhere so that it grows as my age also grow and then use it once I am around 50 years of age Or I can use this money to plan my pension account in my own way.
b) Disadvantage: I miss the chance of getting German Citizenship. Hence, the chance of Visa-hassle-free travel to whole Europe and many other countries in the world Or the chance to work freely in many parts of the world without actually aquiring the workpermit. But these (work) cases are more unlikely bcos I am going back to my country as I would like to work in my country itself.

What is your opinion regarding this? Which points you think have more weightage? What path should I follow?

Regards from Yakkoo
and God Bless Germany

If you are 100% sure that you are going back to your country then I think it would be good idea to avoid German citizenship.

If you think that you would like to keep open your door for EU and if you would like to enjoy other facilities which you mentioned then you should think about it.

It varies from person to person. Some people thinks that they would like to have money as soon as possible. In the same token, some people thinks to enjoy other facilities which you mentioned. Now you need to make sure which part is important for you present and future life.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes. its a tricky decision to make.
Isn't there a way to get both of these benefits ;) I know I am getting too greedy and optimistic here but afterall its my part of money and I should be the one who decides when to use it or when not.

I think nothing should be estimated in terms of Money. I think people loose and win money everyday. The main decisions which leads to acquire a different nationality could be 'better quality of life' ' 'less competitions for kids' or ' more opportunities in this integrated EU '.

In my case, i think my kids do not need to fight with fellow people in terms of caste.. i do not need to pay 'Donation' for school admissions...In developing nations, everything is set up for 'Rich people' or at least for people who act to be rich. Sir/Servants hierarchy still exists and will exist for ever.

There are lot of obstacles here in EU as you will be always an unknown identity. Still, i can be pretty much assured that our kids do not have to pay 'Donations' for a University admission or loosing out a place in a prestigious course just because you were BORN in a different caste.

I do not think about my pension years(if / if not) the state will pay our money back. I am paying a price for everything and i presume that you do the same ???????

@Rajesh: I think at some point of time you are hard hit in your country with Caste/Sir/Servant/Donation issues OR you are always focused in reading these negative news from your home country thats why you decided to run away from these problems and decided to take Citizenship straight away. In one sense, I admire your decision of taking Citizenship as you were focused to achieve this for something good and finally you made it. But, on the other hand, don't critisize or completely ignore your homeland just because of the problems existing there. Remember, you were also born and raised in the same environment which finally brought you to this hoch level in life. I myself belong to a middle class family and know all these problems first hand. Thats why I want to go back to my country and contribute in removing these problems. I know I cannot remove them single handedly but atleast contribute.
* You do not always need to to pay donations to become Doctor/Engineer/Scholar. Its only the status symbol which now a days every family want to achieve by sending their kids to these high class air conditioned schools BUT on the other hand we cry when these schools ask for donations to cover up their expenditures or maintain their standard. You can still find example of several scholars from Africa, China, India who never studied/stayed in such DONATION oriented societies but still reached heights.
I am going back b'cos I want to help my country and I am greedy because I need this money to overcome the some of the very same problems which you mentioned.
This is reality my friend. Money is still everything in our countries.

@yakkoo

There is no shortage of idiots like you, who think they can go back with a bag full of Euros and make changes in India. You will go there with fancy ideas and soon become a part of corrupt society, maybe more corrupt than the society itself.

Some highlights:

You can exploit lower class on pretext of giving them employment and hire 2-3 servants well below minimum wages in your house. Sexual harrasment of female domestic help is commonly accepted thing in society.

You can violate every traffic rule and get away even after killing someone with your car, just by bribing some policeman.

You can bend the law and bribe the judges to get your son out of jail for raping and killing.

@yakoo I was lucky to be not hit by these Sir/Servant/Caste/donation issues( I was away from india after my higher school!!) but i do not know how lucky my kids will be to survive this storm(i cannot risk). My Parents are not politicians or Bollywood stars to protect me and my children i case if i need .

I understand that many scholars reached several heights without these anti-social issues but my fear is that what happens if you (or your children )are not one of these scholars/sports/bollywood stars.??

I want to lead a decent life abiding the law and respecting human rights and i find easier doing it in Germany than in India.

@Akshay: I was already expecting some non-sense reply from an idiot like you How could you leave yourself behind on any such topic. In this very forum I have already read several such replies from you. Everytime, you have been critisized by many others (even demands that your name should be removed from this forum and banned forever) and everytime Mr. Detlef has come to rescue you by saying - Akshay doesn't mean to say this. In my eyes you are still a kid who still need many years to understand all these issues.....so first grow up and then we will talk.

@Rajesh: Perhaps you are right and I respect your fears too. But one thing I want to correct here: as you are from India(I believe), considering the population of India, I still believe that %age of Human Right violations or law breaking incidents happening there are much much less than the %age of same incidents happening in US or Europe(considering amount of population here). The only diff is that such incidents happening in India, Pakistan get more highlated in TV news than happening in Western world. But I still believe there are millions & millions of people living happily in those countries and are proud to be living there.
Once again, your views are right from your point of view and I think everybody has slightly diff. point of view from others and this is where I have different opinion than yours. Nothing against your thoughts or opinions.
An intersting note to end: yesterday I read somewhere that your country India is leading the number of Phd's it produces every year(much more than UK and other European countries) and it is growing fast every year So definitely there is
something good in that system/society too

Don't hate the country where you were born and grew up. Rather love all the places where ever you already lived OR go and plan to live. Then only we can make this world a better place to live, remove poverty, spread friendship and teach everyone to respect the value of human life.

@yakkoo

.......love all the places where ever you already lived OR go and plan to live. Then only we can make this world a better place to live, remove poverty, spread friendship and teach everyone to respect....

Are you high on some kind of drugs?

@ Yakoo,

Yes, everyone has his/her own opinion on issues which are concern to society... I have traveled a lot and i have learned every bit of knowledge i posses by admiring the society where i have been. I neither hate my home land nor accept the fact that we are living happily back home.

The people who live in millions back home have never seen anything beyond India. They basically cannot compare life (they do not care!!). As i have seen the other side for the coin, i can compare, think, decide..

The only thing i hate with our fellow people is they strongly believe that they can induct culture only from Indian schools, Indian society and our kids might become like stray dogs forgetting our own homemade culture..

The kids back home are becoming like stray dogs nowadays running behind lust,money and pride and India is loosing culture(It's prime identity) dramatically.

@yakkoo
Your ideas are very good in writing.
You have requested other members to comments on your ideas and every body showing their opinions.
Take their opinions and decide yourself which fits better for your future life.

First we should learn to live life according to the laws and regulations of that country.

You said "Isn't there a way to get both of these benefits"

To my knowledge, you may get any of the one as per the rules. Here itself you want to violate the rules and how come you gonna back to India and abide rules there.

My advice for you is to learn patience and take every one's advice and take your own decisions.

I am back after a hectic travel schedule just to share some good news. I got reply from the Rechtsanwalt und Steuerberater of our company. He himself is German. He told me one or two options through which it is possible to get both things(Citizenship and pension contributions back) and once the right time comes then I will apply for this. Only condition is that you should not be registered in Germany at the time of appl. for pension contributions.

Before leaving would like to clear some doubts.....

@Rajes: The kids back home are becoming like stray dogs nowadays running behind lust,money and pride and India is loosing culture(It's prime identity) dramatically.
Even though I am not an Indian(but very close) still I do not agree to this. You think like this bcos either you have already taken the German pass or you want to get it and somehow you try to convince your mind and heart to stay away from your original country by saying all this ;) . Three years back I got a chance to work with more than 100 IT professionals from India on a Deutsche Bahn project in Frankfurt. Now the project is finished and all of them went back to work in their country. I made several freinds during this course and what I found surprising was that no one preferred to stay here in Germany indefinitely or find another job. So obvioulsy, they thought on different line than yours and were staisfied (either partially or fully) with the conditions back in their country. They also agreed that the system back in their home country is not PERFECT but never considered it too bad to live AS PORTRAYED BY YOU.

@hereshaik: Here itself you want to violate the rules......
What I asked is not going against law or breaking law. Its simply Clever denken, Clever sparen und Clever profitieren . My lawyer told me that even Germans (mostly freiberufler) try to get back their share of Pension money from yester years of arbeit and put it into their privately managed altervorsorge accounts. And he knows some who managed to do this successfully.
anyways, dieses thema(was ist legal and was nicht) ist sehr breit und tief. lass uns nicht weiter gehen!!
If we do not know the concrete answers to some problems then we should not post replies unnecessarily. Lets not analyze ourself what others do is within law and whats not. First study it properly or lets leave this job on our lawyers and tax consultants who are more professional in this field and then follow their advice.

My advice for you is to learn patience and take every one's advice and take your own decisions
Yes my freind, I myself had written here to get some positive replies to my question and opinions. But, rather than getting some useful tips I got sarcastic remarks in return and I just followed my instinct to defend my opinions. Earlier too, I have seen mostly people of one particular country spitting on their fellow countrymen while discussing such topics on Trust7 which really is a shame

So lets stop it here and lass uns zusammen ein Sommer mit Fußball Finale genießen

This is only "Javani ka Josh" ,if this forum exist after 20yrs then please come back and read all your comments.I myself came across many Indian families who are regretting now for the mistake which they made after taking German citizenship.
Now you guys go on vacations wth some gifts and chocolates for your friends and relatives but after being a citizen here the distance between the relations and friends increases.I know Mr. Akshay would comment that relatives and friends only want money but at least you get something for money when you need.Here you have lots of dreams with you kids education.Beleive me there are no real good schools in Germany like in US or UK where your kids can study.When you see your son on drugs and alcohol at age of 16 and your daughter making parties and going with boys then you cannot stop them and you will only feel lonely.There are many Indian families living like this here in Germany who live a lonely life.
Here even if you have a German passport you will be treated like a Third class citizen.You may have many German friends and colleagues but behind your back they always call you Auslander and one day your kids also has to hear the same and then they look for their identity.
Beleive me my friend if you have an option to return to India then thats really good choice.You know people who are drowning always pull the leg of others and also make them drown along with them thats what guys like Akshay doing here.
Here you cannot get peanuts for 1€ but in India we can get quality cashewnuts for that price

Dear Prasad,

Don't you have anything better to do on early friday morning other than rebuking a poor soul like me?

Atleast TGIF.

Here is your peanuts for 1 Euro ;-)
http://dipworld.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p169_Nibble-Time-coated-peanuts-Hot---Spicy.html

@Akshay.

You are the best in humour. Although I did not liked your comments on girls from Chile earliear (I am from India and respect women), I became fan of your humour after reading many post from you. After taking DE-Citizenship do not live the forum and be here to educate and entertain. Just a humble request.

Sorry my friend at work i don't have time to read or answer to such comments and after work lot other things to do.So its only morning,i got into the habit of waking up early reading e-papers and bulletin boards also sometimes responding to stupid comments made by some idiots.
Also what i mentioned above is for Indians who are educated and having a decent job in Germany.They can find a good job in India whenever they return.
But for those who came here by other means and working in restaurants or dhabbas i would suggest them to stay here as in India they would have a lot of competitors and difficult to survive.

@yakkoo:
I appreciate this thread as it deals with the situation of NEs going to get DE-Citizenship.

Yes, you presented a true picture, without hiding the intention. I personally have seen faces, admiring their countries with tongues, still desparately running to go for B-1 Test....
path.

I think, after getting DE-Citizenship, if someone could utilize this contribution(Pension), then this thought is much better than someone exploiting/misusing the social system here(by doing Schwarz or taking social benefits without need).

Even, just analyze the concept of EU, they are upbringing their neighbours to support better living standards and its working well.

And, what yakkoo is saying is not different from that. So, come back and share your views with other members, who might would like to think the same way.

Gruss,
A.T

HI,

Re activating this thread. Since I am also on the same path, I would like to know whether anyone who obtained the German citizenship could successfully get the pension contribution back.

regards

It may be a stupid question. What happend when someone gets the German citizenship and after some years he decides to take the citizenship of another country which has no pension agreement with Germany? What happens then?

>>Does it mean
step 1) Give up German citizenship by going to a country that has no pension agreement with Germany and become its citizenship.
step 2) apply for pension refund from that country.


Yes, it will work. Untill the government comes with a new legislation to plug this loophole.

as raj mentioned.

it works, lot many Turkish opting this and return back the citizenship.

I am really confuse what Yakoo want to mean by his following comments and what Raj mentioned.


"I got reply from the Rechtsanwalt und Steuerberater of our company. He himself is German. He told me one or two options through which it is possible to get both things(Citizenship and pension contributions back) and once the right time comes then I will apply for this. Only condition is that you should not be registered in Germany at the time of appl. for pension contributions."

I think, yakoo wants to mean to get pension money back without giving up German citizenship.

Please shed some light on Yakoo's comment if anybody know. This is a hot topic for me as I want to go back.

Kind Regards
Raman

>>yakoo wants to mean to get pension money back without giving up German citizenship.

I am not sure if there is such a loophole of having both the citizenship and getting pension refunds.

"it works, lot many Turkish opting this and return back the citizenship."

Germany and Turkey have an agreement in that regard. How is that supposed to work then ?

Very interesting opinions on citizenship...
Well, I would like to know if any of you have some information on 15 yrs. of residence in Germany and it's advantages compared to NE or Citizenship...

Would be great to know your thoughts...

Thank you.
Pramod.

What is the reason someone who has lived 15 years will not go atleast for a NE?

@Pramod,

the basic difference is that if you have NE then you can keep your photograph as it is currently(with tricolor) and if you opt for german citizenship then you MUST keep german flag as in your background. The other issues such as pension money are secondary ;-)

cheers

@subir79

is that not his underwear hanging in background?

@Akshay

You always aim below the belt ..lol

It's easy here to deviate from the topic
Anyway Akshay, it depends on your perception how you see the things..I don't want to write any patriotic stmts here as it is my not my job.

I was asking what would be the advantage of being 15 yrs in DE in terms of vlaidity of visa when some leaves DE for >6 months and any other things that this community shoud know...

Thank you.
Pramod.

Hello All

I came to know through a web site that since the 1st Oct 2009, India has come into an agreement with Germany for pension money.

Does anyone know whether this means that Indians cannot get the pension money refund if having lived in Germany for more than 5 years?

This web link lists India as an Abkommensstaaten:
http://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung-bund.de/nn_11268/SharedDocs/de/Inhalt/Servicebereich2/Lexikon/A/abkommensstaaten.html

Abkommensstaaten
Als Abkommensstaaten werden die Länder bezeichnet, mit denen die Bundesrepublik Deutschland Sozialversicherungsabkommen geschlossen hat:


Australien
Bosnien-Herzegowina
Chile
China (Entsendeabkommen)
Indien (Entsendeabkommen)
Israel
Japan
Kanada und Quebec
Republik Korea
Kosovo
Kroatien
Marokko
Mazedonien
Montenegro
Serbien
Tunesien
Türkei
USA

Maddy

@maddy,

I think the rule is for temporary employees (onsite employees) but not for normal german employees.