http://www.iht.com/articles/530614.html

I wonder if they could be wrong... or maybe they are not?

They don't seem to be wrong. It's clearly shown how hard things are and will be and n ot only for Germany, but also for other countries of the EU.

D.

Then what are we discussing at all? I mean... till now there was nobody of governmental value to stand and tell the media what they intend to do. We're like a guessing club. With a time bomb. How pretty.

Sorry. Makes one bitter.

Well, I don't think that immigration is the solution for the aging Europe - yes, of course you can just open borders and have Chinese (nothing personal) to fill up whole Europe - but is it really Europe after this? The long term solution would be to have more children and governments must look at this direction and not the easiest - immigration. Right now I have only one child - more would be good, however Kindergeld government is paying is more like a joke than a real help - 150 euro a month - Kindergarten alone costs (at least for me) more then 200 euro a month. And how easy to get a place in Kindergarten ? We had to wait for over a year ! And opening times - from 8 till 17, Fridays only until 16 - for me takes an hour to get to and from work - so I have to be either late or leave earlier. Also places to go with children - not really a big choice... Similar situation is in my home country (also EU) - it's simply to expensive to have a child... No wonder whole Europe is aging...

Bies,

Here is my reflection on your post :

You would like more children in Europe. More EUROPIAN children instead of opening borders. You do not want Europe to lose it's identity. So that Europe's population increases with it's own inhabitants rather than outsiders.

Exactly that is racism!! I wonder what you are doing in Germany. It is like this : you are in Germany, but you are from another EU nation. I wonder why you dont go back to your country if you have this attitude!. If you go to another country, it is ok. And if someone else from outside EU comes to Europe, it is not ok for you. That is hypocracy.

And believe me. The way life in Europe is, you would never manage to have more children. You yourself know the problems associated with having a child.

I think the situation is not that simple. First we must admit that there is a bias in our opinion, by the very situation that we are here and that our "future" (here) depends to a degree in how the situation is perceived, so it's just natural that we defend a specific point of view. Migration is NOT a simple phenomena, and the problem of aging societies is at least as complex, there are too many variables, for example, migrants tend to adopt the reproduction patterns of the local population, and they will age as well, what in the future could make the pensioning problem even bigger. On the other hand, just making it cheaper to have children won't necesary make that people suddendly begin a new baby boom, some of the usual suspects here are the length of education in germany, and the fact that much more women prefer a "career" over a family. So what is the solution then? Force women to stay at home and have children? Compress the education and remove "unproductive" subjects at school?

To: placra123

Well, my point was that immigration is the easiest solution and I don't feel it's right - not matter if it's in EU or in Africa or in Asia or whatever country - I don't agree that not wanting to loose identity is racism.
As for your question why I don't go back to my country - well - I'll one day - I never planned to imigrate to Germany, came here just for work and nothing more.

Hi Aalvarez,

You sound very logical and balanced. I have my own views about what could help 'ageing societies' like Germany. Shortening of education is of course one theme. A typical student is at least 27 when he receives a Diplom (Uni). And that is for me not understandable. I have come across people who are 45 years of age and total Berufserfahrung about 14 years. Even the mentality is that if a man is young, he not good enough.

Well, no one can force women to stay at home and have babies. But I also feel that somehow, the femininity is missing in many women here. And that makes them too much career oriented. They just want to compete with men in all fields. And then the family takes a back seat. I feel women should be given better chances when they need to get back to work after kindererziehung. It should not cost them all their career to have a baby. But at the same time, the Industry has NULL tolerance in such matters. Industry just wants the Mitarbeiter to function like a a productive machine. And during the years a mother is busy taking care of the child, the world and the industry have gone ahead.

In my view, a beginning has to made somewhere. Maybe being a bit more humanitarian for all concerned would help the cause.

"You sound very logical and balanced."

I will take that as a compliment :-)

Yo Boys, How is it going?

OK, you people need to relax and not take every little sentence nor other peoples opinions so personally. Chill out! I mean you call it Racism? Please give me a break.........it is just opinions.

The population situations in Britian and the United States are the same as in Germany.

First, we had a large growth or population after WW II called the "Baby Boomer" in these countries, since those ladies could just not

wait for those boys to come home from the war and well, lets just say they did not spend a lot of time watching TV......

Second, many woman are working and have careers and have steered away from the "Stay at home mom" situation.

Third, children are expensive and we have generations now who are use to having things like new cars, TVs, computers, take bigger

vacations, eat more in restaurants etc...They now want things and not children. In the 50's and 60's people where willing to give up

having things and "The Family" was very important. That is not the thinking today!

So, the problem is a culture issue that has taken many years to develop and will take many years to change or may never change. There is no single

answer or word like immigration that will fix it.

Germany needs a fundamental change in thinking, so that immigrants are welcomed and stay. Not just a temp fix. Also, Germany does not have anything to offer new companies, since everything here is very expensive for companies. When you need to build a new business where will you build it today? China or India. Why, labor and land is much cheaper compared to Germany.

Honestly, the new immigration law is a joke. It makes coming here for a job easier? No way! And 84,000 to get a permit residence permit form the beginning? Come on. Those people making 84K never ever had a problem to come and work in Germany. Also, think about it. If a person making 84 K looses a job in Germany, what will happen? He probably will not quickly find a new job in Germany and if it takes too long, he will go to another country, since he has skills and can. He will not just sit here and live on welfare. This law is just for politicians to try to look good and avoid the issue of high unemployment. I mean look. Fischer went to India and said it is easier for Indians to come to Germany and work in IT. Well, that is a big big lie. The IT Green Card did that and all those 20,000 GC's have not even been filled yet. Are there really so many unfilled IT jobs here? Why? It is not because of discrimination or immigration problems. It is Simple. There are no jobs! There is no job growth in Germany and there will not be any for many years, if ever. Huge job growth is happening in China and India and other low cost labor countries. This is where the future of business growth and jobs are and will be for many years to come.............. not immigration! It is all about one thing, MONEY and Germany is too expensive!

Later,
Cool Dude

Hi Aalvarez,

It was indeed a compliment.

I know, therefore the :-) smiley

do you think, that it is more better, that germany is filled with you and your child than chinese? What a shit! (nothing personal) ;)

Glaubst du, daß du besser für Deuschland als alle Andere aus Nicht Europa-Staaten bist, nur weil du aus Ost-Europa, damalige Ost-Block, kommst? Durch die EU-Erweiterung ist die Arbeitslosigkeit höher geworden, und mehr Kriminalität!

GC-Holder100, da machst du leider den selben Fehler von Bies. Er hätte besser keine andere Staatangehörigkeit nennen sollen, das ist das Einzige, was ich nicht so richtig fand. Alles anderes ist nur Meinungsrichtungen.

Das ist nicht Meinungsverschiedenheit. Das ist pure Rassimus, wenn man glaubt, daß die oder der aus Polen oder aus anderem Ost-Block-Staaten besser für Deutschland als die aus Russland, India, Afrika ist. Das Kindergeld und das Geld für Kindergarten, was bies in Anspruch nimmt, stammt wahrscheinlich aus Steuergeld von denen, die aus nicht-europa kommen.

Wenn bies glaubt, daß sein Kind mehr Wert als die von Türken, die Deutschland von Anfang mitaufgebaut haben, dann ist bies für mich ein Rassister. Bies sollte froh sein, das er in einem Land, das mit Hilfe der Türke aufgebaut ist, arbeiten darf!!!

To: GC-Holder100

Give me a break Do you know what racism means ? If not, go to google and search for racism definition. Did I ever say that one nation is better than other ? Did I ever say that I'm better than Chinese or Indian ? I worked in quite a few countries before (US, Europe, Asia) and never had anybody calling me a racist In fact I'd say that your posts are quite racist... Yes, criminality is quite high in East Europe, but situation is slowly getting better, unemployment - well, in EU it was quite high even before new countries joined - and after they joined overall EU unemployment changed only by a few tens of percent. If you ask me - I think that it was way to early to accept East Europe to EU - maybe in ten years or so, but I also think that EU needed these countries more to revive economy that these countries needed EU - if you compare economic grow you will see what I mean.

As for immigration - my point was that immigration is just a short term solution. Let's say you open borders to (OK, Chinese was bad example) everyone - and you will probably get all age groups coming - that would also include older people - so you have more people paying taxes but at the same time more older people. Let's say you open borders only to highly qualified (=high salary=high taxes) - this is exactly what Germany is doing - do you think that these people will come and have 10 children just to save Europe ? I guess not - most probably they will adopt to local live style and will have just one or no children at all. And what happens after 10-20 years ? These immigrants also become old and we are back were we started. So did immigration really help anybody except politicians that probably won't be around anymore ? To really solve age issues there should be a big shift in Europe thinking - unfortunately I don't really have an idea how to make it happen :/

To: GC-Holder100 a bit more

And as for Kindergeld - I pay way more taxes than I get Kindergeld, for Kindergarten I also pay the highest possible amount. If I loose a job - I don't even think about staying here on Arbeitslosegeld for years and years. And so on and so on - so don't even try to claim that I'm living from taxes paid by immigrants - what a lot of bull..it.

May be immigration should be given on the basis of number of children

and the next guess!!

All of u know who is going to be the first eligible immigrant

with some 14 or fifteen wives and some 100 children B.. L.... guys

regards
Jani

Again stop this stupid discussion ...

Its not main stream ...talks are getting extended for nothing good ....


peace !!

Will see if you still think it's stupid when you are 60 and nobody wants to pay you any pension...

Hey bies - You have a right to voice you opinion and I think you are right in many ways. So do not let DuPAC silence you. If he does not like this thread, then he does not have to read it or respond. But people like and need to be heard and that is what this forum should allow. I do not mean hate and threats, but open and honest opinions. Also, I do not think you are a racist at all. I mean, you can not talk about immigration without giving examples of specific groups and that means naming places like China and India and many other countries. It is a fact that 4000 or so GC‘s are from India, so you can use that as a good example in discussions about immigration. There is a reason why 4000 Indians migrated to Germany, but I can not say more about that topic,, since I already voiced my open and honest opinion concerning my views on that in this forum for so called intelligent people to decided for themselves if what I wrote was good or bad or write or wrong and they were deleted. What a shame for this type of censorship to happen in a free society and I do not care who provides the forum.

Yo DuPAC (Forum Policeman),

You wrote ”Again stop this stupid discussion ...Its not main stream ...talks are getting extended for nothing good ....”

Wake up!!!!! These talks are very main stream and reality. Why do you think there is a new immigration law. Because these thoughts are not main stream? Give me a break! I mean you can bury your head in the sand like the politicians do or you can stand up and voice your opinions, which will not make everyone happy, but it is a free World. Well, it is free in many places, but not all. Also, these topics are very important to GC’S. Just look at the post that get the most responses........

Also, if I took everything so personal about what people say about my country and my people, then I would be in a bad way.........

Finally, DuPAC, Please! Please! tell me that user name DuPAC has nothing to do with the old rapper Tupac Shakur, who was shot and killed nearly 8 years ago in NYC, which made the World afterwards a better place. I just wanted to check on that.

Later
Cool Dude