Hi all

I guess we are all tired of this ping/pong of the immigration law.

I seems to be closer to an agreement. Today could be the "D day" for that agreement? Let´s see.

Please, read the article in Aufenthaltstitle.de
(http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0187.html).

I guess is really ilustrative about the possible options, as far as I understand, almost all the options take into account the "high qualified people" but I read nothing about the "high qualified" allready in Germany (aka GreenCards).

It sounds interesting. I´m interested in listen your opinions.

Regards

YO

Hi YO,

When I read those articles from the web page that you were referring.. what I understand is there will be no "Point System" and there will be kind of relatively easy immigration for "Spitzenkräfte" (by keeping the old regulations)

I beleive SPD just gave up to negotiate this stuff with stubborn Union guys.. and accepted what they have been telling for the last 5 months..
this is my understaning about the Compromise, regarding the immigration law..

How might this effect the GC Holders who are already in Germany.. I have no idea.. because all articles talk about the general perspective of the law.. Current GCs are tiny details which might or might not be written somewhere in the coming new Immigration law.. ?

If someone has an idea how this compromise may effect the GCs.. please do share with us..

Regards

Lacrima

Here is what is planned to have in immigration law:

§ 19 Niederlassungserlaubnis für Hochqualifizierte
(1) Einem hoch qualifizierten Ausländer kann in besonderen Fällen eine Niederlassungserlaubnis erteilt werden, wenn die Bundesanstalt für Arbeit nach § 39 zugestimmt hat oder durch Rechtsverordnung nach § 42 oder zwischenstaatliche Vereinbarung bestimmt ist, dass die Niederlassungserlaubnis ohne Zustimmung der Bundesanstalt für Arbeit nach § 39 erteilt werden kann und die Annahme gerechtfertigt ist, dass die Integration in die Lebensverhältnisse der Bundesrepublik Deutschland ohne staatliche Hilfe gewährleistet ist.

(2) Hoch qualifiziert nach Absatz 1 sind insbesondere

Wissenschaftler mit besonderen fachlichen Kenntnissen,
Lehrpersonen in herausgehobener Funktion oder wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter in herausgehobener Funktion oder
Spezialisten und leitende Angestellte mit besonderer Berufserfahrung, die ein Gehalt in Höhe von mindestens dem Doppelten der Beitragsbemessungsgrenze der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung erhalten.


this means that if your salary is bigger than 83,700 € (41,850 € * 2) then you are highly qualified *lol* ;)



http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/interview_dlf/249296/
Beckstein sieht keinen Durchbruch bei Zuwanderungsregelungen

Beckstein: In der Tat haben wir hier im Bereich des Arbeitsmarktes eine Regelung gefunden, die von beiden Seiten mit akzeptiert wird. Im Bereich der Hochqualifizierten, also der Spitzenkräfte, wenn man es plakativ sagt, des Nobelpreisträgers, der vielleicht nach Deutschland geholt werden kann, oder auch des Spitzenfußballers oder des Spitzenkünstlers, des Spitzenwissenschaftlers, da wird die Zuwanderung etwas erleichtert, aber nur in einer vorsichtigen Weise. Das bedeutet, dass derjenige, der als Spitzenkraft hierher kommt, eine Niederlassungserlaubnis bereits unmittelbar, wenn er hierher kommt, zugesichert bekommt. Im Bereich der Niedrigqualifizierten bleibt es beim Anwerbestopp, ebenfalls in dem Bereich der durchschnittlich Qualifizierten, soweit es sich um Menschen handelt, die nicht von den Osterweiterungsländern der Europäischen Union kommen. Bei den Osterweiterungsländern, also Tschechien, Polen, Ungarn, die ab ersten Mai zur Europäischen Union kommen, gilt der Vorrang des Deutschen und bevorrechtigten EU-Bürgers, aber es wird nicht bei einem generellen Anwerbestopp bleiben. Also, da wird es eine vorsichtige Lockerung geben, aber sonst sind die Menschen daran gehalten, dass es beim Anwerbestopp bleibt. Ich glaube, dass wir uns deswegen soweit durchsetzen konnten, weil es für jedermann offensichtlich ist, dass bei der Osterweiterung der EU und 4,5 Millionen Arbeitslosen hier nicht große Veränderungen möglich sind.

http://de.news.yahoo.com/040322/336/3y8az.html

Bei der Arbeitsmigration wird es beim generellen Anwerbestopp bleiben. Für Hochqualifizierte gibt es aber Ausnahmeregelungen. Bei Qualifizierten sind nur Lockerungen für Fachkräfte aus den osteuropäischen EU-Beitrittsländern geplant. Hier gilt aber der Vorrang von Deutschen und EU-Bürgern.

I guess I´m still asleep.

I didn´t get what you are trying to mean.

Following your post, I think I have to pack and go to Australia.

My salary is not (yet) +80000, I am not a Pulitzer/Nobel price winner, I´m not a football star (I should have played football rather than go to the Uni).

And all the mentions to "§ " makes me crazy. § 39, § 42 are references to what?

I mean, I guess we are here, "Hochqualifizierte" or not. Do we ,humble Greencard inhabers, prove noch mal that we are able to live here or we can work here?

Last point: Niederlassungserlaubnnis what does it means? I guess is a new category of Visum, not explained. It mean "you can live here as long as you have work" or what?

I guess if I don´t understand this well, maybe I´m not so "Hochqualifizierte" enought to be here ;-)))

Regards

YO

Hi,

What I understand from Trusdays Post is this: the following will be proposed in the new Immigration law :----

1. The new Rule will make it possible for highly qualified persons to immigrate to Germany. These persons include famous Football players, Nobel Price winners, artists of International fame and the likes.
2. As per my understanding of this Gesetzentwurf, we the GCs do not qualify as hochqualifizierte. We will be considered as qualifizierte.
3. For the qualifizierte, there has been put a minimum salary limit of around 80k Euro per Annum.
4. The above rule will be made a bit loose for the people from the countries which will enter the EU in May like Czeck, Hungary etc.
5. The word "niederlassungserlaubnis" is a new word to me too. This could be a new Visa category. But as I understand it literally, it should an erlaubnis to live in Germany irrespective of your Job conditions. Well, I may be wrong.
6. At this point, it is not clear if this proposal will be accepted as it is.

Well, I leave it up to you to guess what are the repurcussions for the GCs.

Chirag.

Hi YO, hi *,

all this is on our website since 2 years now...

http://www.trust7.com/living_in_germany/immigration_law

But this is the draft and nobody knows which changes will be made after the long, long discussions in the Bundesrat.

The earliest agreement will come in May :-(

Keep cool
Detlef :-))

Hello,

I still not believe that the 5 year limited GCs may get a permanent residence as a result of immigration law.

"Niederlassungserlaubnis" is nothing different than the current "Aufenthaltsberechtigung". Please notice the difference between Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis and Aufenthaltsberechtigung.

Regards.

"Please notice the difference between Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis and Aufenthaltsberechtigung."

the second one gives you the right for a social aid without risk of deportation. this is a main difference, because i believe that we do not have criminals here *lol* ;)

Hi Guys,
I found out a new website about german integration in FAZ weekly today. Looks good in the first sight.
http://www.handbuch-deutschland.de/

Sorry i couldnt open a new Thread for this message becos of my ignorance. Would be nice if some one could publish this url in a new thread and also explain how to create a new thread.

thanks in advance

Raj

It seems that the proposed law of "High qualified" as like in UK. :-)

They have this kind of point system for Nobel Prize,...Doctor...and so on

A GC is not considered High qualified. If a GC with Master/Bachelor certificate being considered as High qualified, then how should we called the person with Doctorate? :-)

I'm very sure that it will be finally an immigration law in Germany but not for us GCs.
They don't want us more than 5 years but they don't want also to tell it directly (also it doesn't sound good for Germany in the World) but they make some difficult rules and some levels like Hoch-Qualifiziert, Normal-Qualifiziert, Niedrig-Qualifiziert and ... to tell us that we have to get out of Germany.
It's very interesting for me how they want to categorize the people into their defined levels in such a way! lol ;-)
For Germans a B.Sc. with 10 years work experience would be more useful than a young Ph.D. (as foreigner they need someone that obey! here the hierarchy plays yet very important role it's the culture of Germany, history has proved it, and the foreigner are very good for the bottom of this hierarchy, as worker or programmer it makes no difference). In other side a Ph.D. who has 10 years experience never come to such country like Germany because some nice places like US, Canada, UK and Australia give him/her better opportunity than here.
Let all GCs pack and leave Germany then it will be about 14000 jobs free and as we are Normal-Qualifiziert or Niedrig-Qualifiziert then some of the 4.641 million jobless can continue our jobs! ;-) and afterward the Germany will have
4641000 - 14000 = 4627000 jobless! and it solves the Germans' problems! lol :-)

@ Hellfeld
Excuse my way of writing, I didn't mean any offence, but I think you at least can understand what we feel!

have nice day!

We are considered normal qualified people. They say that will be easier for people like us.

"Es wird aber einen leichteren Zuzug ausländischer Spitzenkräfte geben sowie eine Lockerung für normal qualifizierte Arbeitnehmer."

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0186.html


Regards,
Marius

Hey Guys,

I think that we shouldn't be so pesimistic regarding the Immigration law. When the law will be approved, I think that we have to apply for Niederlassungserlaubnis with the help of an attourney, because as I saw if you get a refusal, then you will have the chance to apply again after 3 years, so it's pretty dangerous...

The paragraph § 19 Niederlassungserlaubnis für Hochqualifizierte I think is only for the new appliers, that have no "Aufenthaltserlaubnis".

For GCs that have already a Aufenthaltserlaubnis, it's possible that the paragraph § 102 Übergangsregelungen, Abs. 2 could be used..

Anyway it's complicated and perhaps an attorney can see better than us, the "hot" points of the law.

So be optimistic!
I think that anyone of use who sees smth interesting and important in that law, that can be applied for GCs should communicate this in the forum.

Have a nice weekend to All,

mac

I think, "Spitzenkräften" or "Höchstqualifizierten" are these persons, who have Salary ca. 80.000€. "Hochqualifizierten" are these persons like GC-Holders. For "Spitzenkräften" is "Niederlassungserlaubnis" and for "Hochqualifizierten" is "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" without 5-Years-Limit more.

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0194.html
"...
Bei ausländischen Spitzenkräften und Hochqualifizierten gibt es eine Ausnahme sowie eine leichte Lockerung bei mittelqualifizierten Fachkräften aus EU-Beitrittsländern.
..."

So Guys, no panic

good luck for us all

GC-Holder100

"They don't want us more than 5 years but they don't want also to tell it directly (also it doesn't sound good for Germany in the World)"

It's normal for Germans. They would never tell you any bad news directly unless there is no other way left *lol* ;)

For us, is important --> § 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis.
Look at the CDU's proposals
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/fremdinhalte/aenderungen.html
There are no important changes.

Regards,
Marius

Sorry,
can someone tells me whether the new law is passed or rather still in hearing?

There is nothing passed.
Day by day there are discussions going on, recently about national security and integration.

Regards.

"recently about national security and integration."

national security: here it is wanted to throw people out of the country without any trial only on suspicions that they may support terrorists. it is understandable that such nice addition will inevitably result in two things: 1) people will be thrown out just because of their opinions, for example when they say it openly that they do not agree with Jews and Israel; 2) people will be thrown out just because some official in local immigration office did not like how foreigner talked to him or because foreigner did not agree with official's decision. I do not say that such things will be a commonplace, but they will happen for sure. not to mention that the whole story does not correspond to human rights (i mean here article 14 §2 of International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which Germany has ratified and till now did not take its ratification back).

integration: here it is wanted to make an integration courses which will be necessary for all foreigners even if they know everything which is going to be told in courses and much more. no need to say, that such courses will cost foreigners a lot of money too *lol*


The whole story is: many unemployed, big and growing external debt, there is a need to get rid from some people. it is not possible by the Constitution to get rid from Germans, so everything is done to show foreigners that they are not welcomed here any more - by making their life here harder. unfortunately, just a fact of life, and it will be even worse if financial situation in Germany becomes worse.

I agree with your analysis:

"
national security: here it is wanted to throw people out of the country without any trial only on suspicions that they may support terrorists. it is understandable that such nice addition will inevitably result in two things: 1) people will be thrown out just because of their opinions, for example when they say it openly that they do not agree with Jews and Israel; 2) people will be thrown out just because some official in local immigration office did not like how foreigner talked to him or because foreigner did not agree with official's decision. I do not say that such things will be a commonplace, but they will happen for sure. not to mention that the whole story does not correspond to human rights (i mean here article 14 §2 of International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which Germany has ratified and till now did not take its ratification back).
"

We have to face the results of new "World Order(under the term of (Imposed)Democracy)".

Regarding Integration courses, I think, it can also be managed, as we have managed to get the language courses, if and when, it would be required :-)

I was observing this string since long time. I am too a GC and facing the same situation what u all r facing. But still I feel that its not a correct way to put ur bad opinion about our host country.

Just to remind u few things.
1. Most of us are here NOT because because we dreamt of this place since childhood or we love it ( no more fairy tales )
The reason we are here is because we could not get the same thing ( whatever it is ) in our respective motherland countries. So we saw an oppurtuninty in this country and we are here.

2. When we were getting our GC then it was very clear to us that it is not a PR.

So friends , This PR thing is only an after thought.
Acc to me , I think we do not have any right so far to claim for any such thing and express any bad opinion or frustatioin, in case it is getting delayed.
If some body is really worthful then naturally he will not wait for such a long time to get, so called this PR. He can pack his bags and go anywhere in the world.
The politicions who are expressing there concerns about foreigners are not fools. They have the responsibility of future of the country so they should look to all aspects. And to them there countrymen are their first responsibility and not we.
So if they see our integration can effect their national security in some way then it is right to discuss about it. Ofcourse I too understand that sometimes some less experienced people put some foolish remarks. But not all the people who are sitting there are the same. Even if some such thing get passed against GC in the parliament, just because of more number of people vote for it then it is not only the GCs which will get affected , It will also effect the host country in long run.
Do u think any talented person will opt for here in the future.
No. If a person is getting oppurtunities then naturally he will first opt for either US, UK or some other open countries . Only in case a person is less talented (I will say second class talent ) and not having an oppurtunity in other place will forced to be here.

uttam, what u r talking abt is absolutely bullshit. Most of people here are not bcos they r not qualified for the countries like US or UK, actually some of them are moving here from those countries u think are ideal places to live. They are here bcos germany is the most wonderful and ideal place for people to live comparing that with other countries. It has wonderful natural environment, comprehensive medical system, prefect education infrastructure and so on. Let me ask u several questions, will u receive free education in UK or US? will u receive the same welfare like gemrnay in UK or US? will u receive immediate medical treatment when u get sick in UK or US? I knew in UK, in worse case u have to wait for the bed in the hospital for more than half year, ur life could be over during waiting period. will u receive 30 day annual leaves in UK or US? i can tell u that u could be fired during your vacation. there are too many things to mention here. I think u may experience failure to apply job in those countries, that's why u think we are on the same boat as u. come on, u r too naive. God knows how u manage to get a job here. I am sure it is your luck absolutely, u should pretty much thank the company who hires u. U may think the people working in north america are qualified people, but i can tell u, a lot of IT people still working KFC to wrap hamburger for living.
At last, i wanna tell u, we r here bcos we all have good wish to have a better future, if u feel u r not supposed to fight for good thing, fine, just keep quiet boy.

Dear mmtt

1. Kindly read 'uttam' posting carefully. He mentioned, only 'the second class talented' people will opt to come here in FUTURE. He is not mentioning the current situation.

2. Germany is good, but it is not the best. Every country has its good and bad things. Regarding the free education, actually you get it free, but you pay later in the form of high tax. Some part of your tax is going for education.

3. Regarding the welfare, when you pay less tax , obviously you have more savings and you dont really need welfare like germany.

4. "2. When we were getting our GC then it was very clear to us that it is not a PR.
So friends , This PR thing is only an after thought.
Acc to me , I think we do not have any right so far to claim for any such thing and express any bad opinion or frustatioin, in case it is getting delayed.
"
This is what uttam quoted. I do not see anything wrong in that.

Desmond

Again, I appreciate a good analysis of what "Germany" offers as comparison to other countries like US, UK etc.

In this regard, I would highlight that atleast I know a couple of friends here, who inspite of having Immigration of UK(HSMP) recently, are still waiting for German Immigration Law, because of some of the mentioned benefits in Germany.

Personally, I see it as a Big advantage of learning German that I am able to talk/learn people from different countries, which is something, that I was never able to get in my homeland.

And, if the Govt. asks us to attend "Integration" courses, I would not mind it at all, because it benefits both.

I hope, the Politicians will end up soon "Realizing the Need to be Realized".

I am with the poster "mmtt" and also 100% sicher that Germany is a good place to live a healthy life than other countries in Europe but not USA. USA is and will be a good place to live as a foriegner who immigrates not like the one struggling with H1 visa or other visas like L1 visa. But one thing I would like to argue here, one is coming to Germany depending on their purpose and a strong reason and these parameters will not always dictate to the terms of healthy life in Germany. Each one has their own opinion so there is no need to criticize one's thoughts like criticizing the poster "uttam".

Coming to Immigration law in Germany, I have a question to those who are anxiously waiting for the decision. Do you think a new and a complicated law will come up so fast to serve your needs? I mean one can keep their confidence high but not to the level of dying to see the results as soon as possible before your visa expires. If you have good skills then keep up your job, there is always a chance to carry on your good work in Germany even after your GreenCard expires with other visas. Huh, Germany is not an end to your story, please wake up!

I don't see anything bad in what uttam said. Instead I find a lot of good points. He did'nt say only the "rotten eggs" comes here..He said if the attitude of the Govt doesn't change then only those people will prefer Germany who are second class talented. Nobody promised us PR when we came here. So before getting mad to someone take time to read and understand what is written. U can always present ur openion in a better way.Pls...Pls...behave urself...don't act like kids!!!

Dear Desmond

1. Kindly read 'uttam' posting carefully. He mentioned, only 'the second class talented' people will opt to come here in FUTURE. He is not mentioning the current situation.

which means if u r can stay here in the future, u r belong to second class talented like new comer, or else u have already gone to US. I didn't see any difference here.

2. Germany is good, but it is not the best. Every country has its good and bad things. Regarding the free education, actually you get it free, but you pay later in the form of high tax. Some part of your tax is going for education.

As far as i know, study in USA at least cost u 20000 per/year fot tuition fee only, i m sure that i didn't pay that much tax here anyway. if u have two or more children, u can see the benefit right away, dont let me explain why.


3. Regarding the welfare, when you pay less tax , obviously you have more savings and you dont really need welfare like germany.

R u sure your saving can support u and your family for 30 years if we assume that we can live that long? in germany, u can get pension every month like fix incoming. BTW, tax in USA is not low at all.

4. "2. When we were getting our GC then it was very clear to us that it is not a PR.
So friends , This PR thing is only an after thought.
Acc to me , I think we do not have any right so far to claim for any such thing and express any bad opinion or frustatioin, in case it is getting delayed.
"
Yes, that's why we r all here, hope it can be changed in the new law. dont tell me u that dont want to be PR here.

5. This is what uttam quoted. I do not see anything wrong in that.

yes, he mentioned everything as u can see, but u must recognize real meaning beneath. Hopefully u r not nickname of uttam.

"2. When we were getting our GC then it was very clear to us that it is not a PR."

well it was very clearly mentioned that it is a preamble to a sure PR, and i am sure that not many people have studied german laws comprehensively and have made attempts to get acquianted with a german political system and prehistory of GC regulation, especially with a fact, that SPD with Mr. Shröder did not find it necessary to run any disputes and make any agreements with opposition regarding GC. Most basically have heard the so-called "advertisement" of german government structures as well as their future employees who of course has told them exactly what local officials in employment offices have told them -> same "advertisement" of german government structures, initiated by SPD and Mr. Shröder.

I understand very well that Mr. Schröder with his party has risked, has lost everything and now wants to get the responsibility off his shoulders - somewhere i saw a recent official letter from "Bündnis '90/Die Grünen" party regarding GCs - it was even said there that the governing coalition has no responsibility over GC-program (!) - but hey, what's the deal here? why the mistakes of german politicians should fall on shoulders of people who listened to them and came here? it is very rightly said that it was possible for them to choose between several countries and most have chosen Germany because they liked it more - but they would not choose it in case if it was not advertised to them that a PR for them is a sure thing. moreover, it is also very correctly said that almost nobody would come here in case when it was made clear that PR is out of question.

and now think again: the human life is not long, and the productive life is even shorter than that. will the guy have the same opportunities if he is forced to go back comparing with those which he had when he decided for Germany and GC? i highly doubt it. age, age ... so basically what happens now -Germany invited people, did not used them, no - i can not say that because they were not really needed here, burned a good part of their future away and now wants to throw them out and say that nothing happenned? i don't think so ... yeah, it will be "nothing happened", but some politicians can start learning those two words as well *lol* ;)

"Only in case a person is less talented (I will say second class talent ) and not having an oppurtunity in other place will forced to be here."

regarding "second class talent" - do you really think that the world is ogranized in such a way that a more talented in his profession guy always gets a better place? come on, that's a story for three-years old children *lol* i have worked with different people, including those who earn a lot in U.S. and can say that it is a common place when a "no class talent" earns a lot more than a "first class talent" - this world is not perfect, almost nothing depends on your talent but a lot depends on your ability to present yourself (something that very high talented people do not know how to do; learn the history and a usual fate of geniuses - you will see that i am right - those people are like children in everyday's life) and even more on ability to end up in right place in the right time *lol*

and considering "U.S. is a better place" ... hmmm ... probably it is so for mercenaries, who jump from place to place in the world during whole life in search of a higher bid for their services (and it is understandable, because the whole U.S. is just a country of mercenaries, and was started as such), but not so for the people who did not like how the things are going on in their home countries and decided to relocate just one time. moreover, i would tell you that the people who decided for U.S. may not be so happy in ten-twenty years (exactly when they will become old and nobody will want them) - just you wait. if they continue on the path which they follow now ...

"They have the responsibility of future of the country so they should look to all aspects."

ha-ha, they try to, but they are humans as well and as such can not escape some aspects of human nature! which is: of course, it can not be so that they have made a mistake. Mr. Shröder is a perfect example here - from what i read in the news, it seems that he fights with comrades from his own party now *lol*

"So if they see our integration can effect their national security in some way then it is right to discuss about it."

ha-ha, do you think that all those talks around immigration law are made just because of 10.000 GCs? come on people, open your eyes and get back down on earth! they want to have an instrument for the next thirty-fifty years which will be applied to all foreigners, regardless of their qualification. and when i was writing about national security and integration in my previous post, i also meant all foreigners, and even did not think about GC and PR *lol* yes, considering GCs as you opened this thema: local officials will not think whether you are low qualified, qualified,
high qualified or very high qualified, i assure you, as well as the level of your integration will mean nothing to them as well. when they have a problem, they will try to solve it at least costs for them and will act accordingly. and when they can throw any foreigner out without having to prove anything ... it's gonna be a lot of fun, you will see *lol* ;)

Well Different people took my note in different way.

FINALLY i only wanted to say is not to put ur frustrations out in form of bad opinions about the country which is hosting us.

This discussion has gone too far so please do not comment on it or reply to my message.

Sorry for any misunderstanding caused to few people here.

Some guys from CSU wants as the imigration law to be rejected.

"Mehrere Landesgruppenmitglieder forderten Beckstein auf, keine überflüssigen Kompromisse mit Rot-Grün einzugehen, sondern das Gesetz (Zuwanderungsdesetz) abzulehnen."

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0207.html

I really don't understand this CSU. Why CSU is so conservative ?

Regards,
Marius

Hello All,

does any of you knows how can Zuwanderungsgesetz help us GCs?

I am asking this because I got today a big defeat from Ausländerbehörde. I was trying to change the second page of my Visa (die Auflage) according to ASAV §5 Nr.2. I was trying to get smth more than GC law offers. They told me that, independent of what will happen with the Zuwanderungsgesetz, or what Visa I will have in the future, the GCs will have to leave Germany after 5 Years.

So I don't know how Zuwanderungsgesetz can help us further, perhaps any of you guys do know.

I told you one week ago to be optimistic, but now I think that without smth good in Zuwanderungsgesetz or without a good attorney we have no chance to stay here after 5 years.

The stupid part is that everyone (from Arbeitsamt and from Ausländeramt) is telling you smth else.

I am again disappointed!

mac

Hi mac

since I came here as GC holder, two of my friends went to UK, three to Canada and two other like me came to Germany. All of them in UK and Canada are satisfied, they don't feel as a foreigner there and most of them earn better! but here , we are in the lowest level of this society, and if we can stay here I'm sure after 30 years still we will remain AUSLANDER! as we are now. that is the most common question: Woher kommen Sie?!!!!! (The race is the most important factor!)

I believe that a nation is a predictable linear system and cannot change in an opposite way than it was going! (except when there is somethings like a revolution or putsch) therefore as we saw in different periods of Germans' history, they are not as civilizable as British or American people! (however, of cource much more civilizable than third world countries! ;) lol )

Then don't be disappointed! Find another place in this big world! I'm trying also to do so! that's becuase of I recommend it to you -> after you decide to leave here, you feel free of all these damned discussions about GC,ZUWANDERUNG,AUFENTHALTSERLAUBNIS and ...
Then you cannot be more disappointed!

hrk

Hi,

I need to make a point here I guess.

I wouldn't change my country in my life that frequently. I enjoy settling and I don't enjoy being or living temporarily. It is not that easy to move to Canada or US. I would not want to start from scratch.

I am afraid, in Europe Germany is the only place where you can work comfortably as a foreigner. ( p.s. I don't know UK so I will exclude UK from this generalization )

I would prefer to stick here if I can see it is possible.

Just my 2 eurocents.

Hi hrk & Atreides,

thanks for your replies.
I must agree with Atreides, I don't want to change to country every 5 years or smth like this. On the other hand I am not afraid or sad to go back in my origin country.

If you are a young, independent soul, it's easy to change the country and to find another job, but when you have a family or you have some responsibilities here, then it will be problematic to leave Germany just like that, at once.

What is beyond my knowledge is how it’s possible that in organized country like Germany, some laws are so chaotic.

More than that if you have some contracts like for Versicherungskasses, Handy contract, Car insurance, leasing rates, then the situation is more complicated... because many of the contracts made here have to canceled after a "Gestetzliches Kündigungsfrist", which is normally 3 months.

This means that if your time comes to leave the Germany, you have to prepare everything with 3 month before...so it’s quite stupid...

I am also asking my self, I there is such a big chaos with this laws, how can we be sure that we are going to get back (as the law says) all the money (or a part of it) that we've paid for social insurance (Rente, etc).

So as you can see there are a lot of questions regarding the social issues, but also regarding our IT carrier…

mac,

hi all guys, i think it is hard for us to guess what immigration law will look like in the future, what we can do now is to raise our vioce, believe we all have done it very well. however, the result really depends on the decision of politicians. Anyway, don't give up, hold your failth. One thing, I want to remind all of you, make sure u have a job after this 5 years period. bcos I don't see any reason why german gov wants to kick out all the people with proper jobs and paying tax. if they do so, i think not only us but all the companies who hire us will join our family to fight the rights for us, probably those retired people too.

Hi mac,
Hi everybody,

I also wouldn't change my country each five years, I've got also family and underestand what the responsibility means, I will also first try to stay here!
but when this society is enough conservative to make you get out however they need you, then we have to immigrate again (or back home countries).
When they think that each foriegner can be the source of a danger!?!?!?!? When they give statistic while discussing about ZUWANDERUNGSGESETZ that the number of foriegner in prisons is two time of germans and you as a high qualified engineer have to be considered in the same category as a murderer or thief then I think we should think about another place!

"...Vor der Presse drückte sich Landesgruppenchef Michael Glos diplomatischer, aber dennoch eindeutig aus: "Die Bevölkerung ruft im Grunde nicht nach einem Zuwanderungsgesetz." Für die Menschen habe es in den letzten 25 Jahren eher zu viel als zu wenig Zuwanderung gegeben. Der stellvertretende Landesgruppenvorsitzende Gerd Müller sagte: "Die CSU ist auf klarem Kurs. Es gab keinen Einzigen, der sich positiv für das Zuwanderungsgesetz und einen Kompromiss ausgesprochen hat." Und man habe "Beckstein den Rücken gestärkt, in allen Fragen klar und hart zu verhandeln".
Das war nach Ansicht von Abgeordneten auch notwendig. Dem bayerischen Innenminister wird der Vorwurf gemacht, er habe bei den Verhandlungen über Detailpunkte wie humanitäre Fragen die große Linie vergessen. So wurde Beckstein von den Abgeordneten attackiert: Ob vergessen worden sei, dass der Anteil von Ausländern in den Gefängnissen doppelt so hoch sei wie der Anteil an der Gesamtbevölkerung?..."

from:
http://www.welt.de/data/2004/03/31/258616.html

I agree that everybody from ausl.amt is saying something different, I got a GC but unfortunately I have to renew my residence every 2 years, last time ( 1 year ago ) I asked the officer in ausl. amt if it is possible to apply for a permenant residence, He tooold me after 5 years you can do....?!!!!!so cheers

I'm still trying to find a job, get a GC and travel to Germany, but I think UK could be a plan-B for inmigration.
I understand that in the UK an IT Specialist can obtain a work permit if he find a Company that will sponsor him.
And after working for 4 years you obtain the permanent resident.
I wonder why Germany doesn't has a better inmigration policy...

Hi to All,

it seems that Zuwanderungsgesetz was again delayed. They made yesterday no step further.
For more details see

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0210.html

The law will be discussed again at the end of the month.
I really don't know how this law can help us GCs when(if) it will be voted...

mac

good day to everybody, i would just like to ask if anybody can help me with regards to my existing problem here in germany, i am now here in germany visiting my mother who has a residence permit here in germany and my sister who is now carrying a german passport through adoption of my german step father i was also was adopted by my stepfather year 1989 but i was already 20 years old that time unlike my sister who is only 5 years old when she was adopted, even though that i am already carrying the surname of my stepfather and my name was already in the "familienbuch" the people in the "auslanderamt" still insist that i cannot stay here in germany, i can only stay for 90 days as visitor and then i must get out of germany.
my question is that why did the "amsgericht" gave me a decision that i am already adopted but i won't be able to stay, so what is the adoption for?
i hope somebody can give me an answer with my question, and aside to an attorney is there any office here in germany where i can go and inquire with regards to my problem.

vielen dank

cryingvirgo

I have question concerning the permnant residence, iam a scientist MD?PHD and i do have an ofenthalterlaubnis for 2.5 years that will be expired in september, but iam offered an additonal 3years job in my institue. Do I have the chance to convert my permit into PR after this 3 years? and do the new law affect my status as the IT GC holders? in another words are scientist included in this law or they are ranked as Skilled workers?. Can somebody reply to me?

"because many of the contracts made here have to canceled after a "Gestetzliches Kündigungsfrist", which is normally 3 months."

it depends. if you have to leave the country because of refusal to prolong your residence permit, it would give you possibility to cancel all your contracts at once ;)

"I am also asking my self, I there is such a big chaos with this laws, how can we be sure that we are going to get back (as the law says) all the money (or a part of it) that we've paid for social insurance (Rente, etc)."

Don't work, get unemployment benefit - that would allow you to get the money back. Otherwise you will be able to get only 50% from the money paid for pension.

mac,

i completely agree with you. i have lived and worked in germany for 5 full years and i am now happy ot say that i have left the country ...

not to say that Germany is bad or something, but trust me its a quicksand that sucks u in gently and u dont realise it till u have to pack ur bags and leave ... and at that point, every one comes for ur hard earned money ...

contracts, deposits, landlords, repairs and what not !! its been 3 months since i left the country and i am still struggling with these ******* issues ... yes, i get really pissed when i think about these things!

and the worst part is that german mentality gets into ur head and its pretty tough to realize till u have facing a situation where u realize it ...

anways, my honest advice to all u career oriented people there ... and make sure u have enuff time to pack ur things and resolve all issues b4 u leave. trust me - if u r thinking abt leaving, getting a legal insurance is not a bad idea at all !!!!!

all the best :-)