Hi,
I am from 10.2000 as GC hier in Germany.
My WP is ending at 15.10.2004 and from 'Arbeitsamt' have told me that it is not problem to prolong my WP till my 'Aufenthalt' valid is (till end 11.2004).
Qestion:
My chef has told me that he is willing to help me to get normal WP and to do anything what is necessary from his side that I stay more then 5 years in Germany.
I already have 'unbefristetet' Work Contract till 65 year.
I have explain in Arbeitsamt for that, the answer was, that they are obligatet as working agency to issue an WP till 5 yerars (no matter wich kind - GC or normal or what ever) because afther 5 years when the person get 'Niederlasungserlaubnis' automaticaly get 'unbefristete' WP.
So...
Is there any chance that I apply for normal WP (not GC) because my company is willing to support me for that and... how to do it (to explain the Arbeitsamt) to do that...because they have answer that there is no chanche no matter what my company want, to issue an normal WP.
And ....in this law chaos....
How other people get normal WP?
I do not understand why the are making so problems for changing GC to normal WP when one company want that.
And for Goad, there are law for this and that, but that is no valid for you because you are that and that and for this , you have to do that, because of that will do this....
I am seek people...I am with my family hier (as many others I believe) and I have 37...if they let me out...where shall I go on 40 years then...
I think that I will search Osama and work for him .....and hope that he will not search an genehmigung for aufenthalt for erlaubnis fur genehmigung for paragrapg Av GC for behorde to Amt for burger and of aufenthatl of rathaus for behörde of meldeamt....
HEY PEOPLE...shall we make our union geathering in Berlin in front of Goverment or .... who cares?
If tehere are intersted... lets make an special TOPIC, and inform where and when we shall go and aks and search to answer us once for all...
I hate this status of ... 'having a sex - without fucking' !
Aplologize and sorry for this Ladys....but I am seeck!

MAX

Uhhh Max, you look Sauer oder?

First of all, I have to say please leave Osama out of this. Germans doesn´t have our sense of humour and this name only causes problems. Second, keep the bad workds as XX or dots like f..k. Looks better.

Second: Let´s put it serious. I´m also 37. I also have a family here. My family was already enought affected with this stupid regulation, (z.B like a year work prohibition for my wife work and so on). But we chose to be here. I can understand perfectly your position because is mine also and I am also p...d off.

Two weeks ago were discussing this with one GC friend and he is already pis..d of like you and me.

The core of this question, I tried to ask yesterday in a post (of course no response) is if we were qualified enought to come here why f..k we are not enought qualified to be included in the "Highly qualified" classification of the Immigration law?

If we were included in this classification, so was mentioned in the link I posted, all our problems could be solved from 1.1.05 with no additional papers, formulars or beggins to our chefs.

I will tell you how works the normal visa. First of all, your boss have to prove that in the normal Arbeitsmarket he cannot find a German who fits for your work assignment. This is made by newspapers offers (or other media) during at least (I´m not so sure) three months. After that, he can say to the Arbeitsamt "Hey guys, I found a guy from XXXX who fits the profile, please give me for him a workpermit. In this moment, AAmt will ask for the probes (newspapers and so on...) and after a self check he will give for you an authorization for you to work, the well known Arbeits* and by means of this an Aufenthalts*. I guess first they give you a 1 year "probation" period and later and better a finally longer work/live permit.

Later if I have time I will post you a link for this.

BUT this involves an effort from your Firma side, a waiting period for you and so on. And can you tell me Why do we f...k have to do this f....g things again? We have all of this already done! We are already here!!!!!. F.....g politicians.

So, by God sake, anyone of you, sehr geehrte Greencarders, have heard this rumour that we will be considered as "Hochqualifizierte" to be included in § etwas?

About making a gathering in Berlin, yes. We should did that. Bot now is too late.

About a special topic, there is already one. The Russian Greencarders have written notes to everybody important people of Germany. Till today, they have two responses, both saying nothing in concrete.

Please read this in www.german-green-card.org

So, I´m not SudSud but another long post isn´t it?

Please, anybody interested, please respond

YO

Hi YO,

An employer, or in this case, your host country has a very wide palette of means to pressure you. He can choose to promote someone else, to not increase your salary, to make you work longer, and so on. He can even fire you.

A normal employee, or in this case a foreign citizen, has very few ways to exert pressure on his employer (or host country), he may provide substandard work, ask him for a higher salary, or even strike. But the reality is that at the end of the day, the only real power he has, is his workforce, to quit.

Many companies are using the threat of outsourcing to reduce salaries, and for normal employees, the only choice is to look down, and accept.

The only way to fight this phenomen, and this is valid from a certain degree of qualification (the *market* will tell you if you are highly qualified or not), is to use the same means, and that is. If another country offers you the possibility to get a better permit, go there, if they will only give you a better status after 85K, then go to your Monster profile and demand an 85K salary (imagine the collective effect if every GC did this). Let other countries compete for your workforce, specially when there is a chance that you get an unwanted surprise in one or two years.

However, if one is afraid to take risks, then the alternative is to sit and wait, the chance of success is probably about the same.

Countries don't have feelings, they have laws.

Cheers,
A.

Hello YO, Max,
I totally agree with you guys.. and YO, I saw your post yesterday but I didnt(couldnt) answer.. as I dont know the answer either..:-(

You guys will remember, I used to write here in these forums a lot.. I was also enthusiastic about the new immigration and stuff..
but it was a big disappointment.. so I dont have really "lust" to discuss the same things again and again.. and that is why I keep quiet..

The current status for GCs is, nobody knows nothing and some people will say "be optimistic" etc.. I dont want to stress myself with all this anymore.. I have a job at the moment.. If I lose it tomorrow then I will see what I can do.. if I can not stay, I will just go back.. I mean.. what else I can do? shall I kiss their ..sses
to let them stay me here..

anyway.. I dont see a point to discuss "what is going to happen to GCs" topic anymore as we can not change anything.. just causes more stress..

Take Care

Lacrima

Lacrima! Nice to hear from you. I start with aalvarez, then a couple of lines for you.

So, A..x of course you´re right. At the end, it´s all about politics and politicians.

I want to tell you a couple of things. Maybe you are younger than me. Maybe you are single. I am not. I have passed all this kind of pressures at work you mentioned and survived.

I think you didn´t catch my intentions. I don´t mean in any way sit my a.. in a chair waiting what anybody in Berlin or Munich will decide for me. I couldn´t face my childs in 15 years and explain what I did wrong.

In my mind, we have two clear choices:

1- "Countries dont have Feelings have laws" : I´m not a country, I have feelings and also have brain. Laws has loopholes, we can find them and use it, perfectly legal, ask a lawyer if you are not sure

2- As I told you before, I dont plan to sit to wait those man in green kick the as..s of me and my family out of Germany after 5 years. I do have alternative places to go, I went 2 other places before, I can perfectly do it again. I JUST ONLY WANT THE THINGS CLEAR!!!: if the market have changed, the political background is different and blah blah, just put those things in black and white and tell us CHAU you are not welcome anymore, after your 5 years you have to leave.

But this is not politics, polititians don´t use to say NO to anything. Maybe they say YO (mixture of yes and no, or as we say in spanish NI) and you have to understand what are they wanted to mean.

So, I´m not afraid to take risks. I´m here. I won´t sit till the sand of the clock will be in the lower part.

And to Lacrima, hey boy, take it easy. Denying the situation doesn´t make it dissapear. Just drop a couple of lines!!!

By the way, anybody knows anything about LOL Trusday?

Regards

YO

Hi YO,

Actually I didn't mean my rant to imply that anyone in this situation is simply waiting for the deadline to come, and in particular not you, I know that you are good. (Lo digo honestamente!)

It's true that I'm young, but I will also age, and that is precisely the reason why I don't want to spend my energy fighting against the routine, since only now can I determine how my life will be in 20, 30 or 40 years.

What I meant is, although it is easier said than done, that we should be open to all options, and not develop the behavior of getting locked-in. Even when we really like this country.

Best regards,
-a

Thank you all....
I have ask Arbeitsamt for all chanches...they are just such ....
NO CHANCE!
Ich hoffe, wird besser!
Gruss, MAX

By the way.....
Why afther 5 years we GC are not eligeble to this new Zuwanderungsgesetz?
Those 5-6 points...
5 years work in Germany...
60 mont pension
bla,bla,this, bla,bla that....
After 5 years I do have all that points they need for Niederlasungserlaubnis.
Can some one explain why this law is not valid for GC holder?
PS...
No where in my visum is written like GC or GC visum holder or what ever...
It is normal visum as for all others and this new law is not saying if you are GC or what ever...and that GC CAN NOT apply for NE under this law?!
Any idea?

Maybe is a good idea you to write or phone to Alexander Arte TV. I guess you have something to say.

By the way, the Beamter from Aamt are right. You cannot apply to a Niederlassungerlaubnis of f....g whatever erlaubnis because Greencard regulation clearly says that maximun time is 5 years. You cannot fight this. The head of the Beamters is harder than yours.

But please, read the first response of a man to the russians GC. There says also clearly that NOTHING prohibit to you to apply to a normal WP/RP after your five years.

You only need the conditions mentioned by any other colleage GC elsewhere here.

But, lets be possitive. Maybe somebody important see you in TV or maybe if Alexander is a good reporter can find anybody can answer your questions.

Regards

YO

WAIT A MINUTE!
Hey YO.....
I have read the law ( the old one and the new one)...
You say 5 years GC and so it is...
But, in that law, say that:
AuslG § 24 Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis

(1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis ist unbefristet zu verlängern, wenn der Ausländer
1. die Aufenthaltserlaubnis seit fünf Jahren besitzt,2. eine Arbeitsberechtigung besitzt, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,3. im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist,4. sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen kann,5. über ausreichenden Wohnraum (§ 17 Abs. 4) für sich und seine mit ihm in häuslicher Gemeinschaft lebenden Familienangehörigen verfügtund wenn6. kein Ausweisungsgrund vorliegt.

WHY ONE GC IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO APPLY UNDER THIS (OLD ACTUALL) LAW...OR THE NEW ONE (AFTER 1.1.05)?!

Then!
I have call Arbeitsamt and explain this....they have answer:

'We as job agency 'Arbeitsamt' are obligated to issue an work permit till 5 years.No matter if it is GC or what ever. After 5 years when Auslender have NE, he/she do not need work permit because he has fulfiled the law regulation of:
AuslG § 24 Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis
and with it he/she become 'Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis' which is official and Aufenthaltserlaubnis and Arbeitsgenehmigung'
and you do not need 'Arbeitsgenehmigung' any more.'

Also:
From the Firs Petition of 'German-cards.org' was that: 'AFTER 5 YEARS , YOU CAN APPLY FOR 'Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis' ACCORDING THE LAW AND REGULATION,

Important:
Minister Otto Schilly and BMI.BUND.DE in the official GC Report (signed from Otto Schilly him self - I have this document) are saying that AFTER 5 YEARS IF THERE IS NEED FOR ONE GC TO STAY MORE THEN 5 YEARS, HE/SHE CAN REGULATE HIS PRESENCY IN GERMANY ACCORDING FUTHER/ACTUALL LAW OF FOREIGINERS IN GERMANY.

Something important:
The answe to the second pettition of 'green-cards.org' from Carola Ruppert from the BMI.BUND.DE (I believe in the name of Otto Schilly him self) has answer that 'THEY DO NOT HAVE AN OFFICIAL ANSWER TO THE FUTHER STATUS OF STATEMEN OF "SO CALLED GC"....i.e. THEY DO NOT SAY "YOU HAVE TO GO OUT OR YOU CAN NOT APPLY FOR 'Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis'!

One thing more:
I have many friends who have come from my country also as we 'GC' before several years working as medical stuff with contract for 5 years!
That was also a thing over goverment as we are, and they are still hier with 'Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis' and more then 5 years.
Same things was for them as for us.

Also important:
I have call 'Auslenderamt' and got the answer: 'WE DO NOT KNOW!"
But as it is, you have to leave Germany afther 5 years.
I have ask if I can apply under the:
AuslG § 24 Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis
ANSWER - A HA...NO!!!!
QUESTION - WHY?
......He has smiled and told me......
You know come when you visum endet and we shall see you have more 1 years...Goad knows what can happened till then!

SO...
I am confident that for one GC if he/she has a job and want to stay more then 5 years in Germany..it is not a problem at all.
They will giv you the papers..

ABOT THAT INTERVIEW IF ALEXANDER WANTS ME I WILL BE GLAD TO GO...AND I WANT TO.
I WILL CALL HIM THIS AFTHERNOON ....

MAX....

PS.
GRRRRRRRRR......
'All I want to do is to live that what is comming out of me.
Why it is so dificult...I do not know!'
H Hesse.

Beamters at AB haben keine Ahnung.
After 5 years if you have job and 60 renten
you have right to get NE.
Beamter must give it to you.

Yes. Also GRRRRR from my side

OK. Let´s stop with all of this "IF" infinitely nested and let´s try to deal with facts.

I guess in

http://www.trust7.com/de/forums/integration/status_quo_5_years_are_the_maximum_for_green_card_holders_so_far_and_this_is_not_likely_to_change

was all of this one and one more discussed.

Good to know the meaning of Aamt in your area (Berlin?) but, we are dealing with information the Beamter still doesn´t have. This man Conradt I guess was involved in any way with the redaction of our beloved GC regulation.

Leider, I have not too much time today, but I would like to discuss this a little bit more

Good Luck

YO

THANK YOU ALL FOR THIS DISCUSSION!
I was diging in some old/new things that seems no body knows.
"Lets wait and see".......Goad it is so dificult!
But DvD ...I thank you for your answer....give me a positive energy.
Also my schef has told me not to worried because they will all do to keep me further...(How nice from some one who I even did not know before 2 years and now is ready to do all to help me!)
I WISH ALL OF YOU 'GC' who wants to stay here in Germany to stay and have your future....

Ich Wunsche euch eine schon Tag!
MAX

Soweit ich das Gesetz interpretieren kann, schaut es folgendermaßen aus:
§9 definiert die Voraussetzungen, bei welchen eine Niederlassungserlaubnis vom Ausländeramt automatisch ausgestellt wird:
1. ... seit 5 Jahren Aufenthaltserlaubnis...
...
5. ihm ( dem Ausländer ) die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist
usw. ( wurde schon 100 mal zitiert )

Fraglich ist der Punkt 5. Lesen wir das Gesetz weiter.
Abschnitt 4, „Aufenthalt zum Zweck der Erwerbstätigkeit“ § 18 „Beschäftigung“:
...
(2) Einem Ausländer kann ein Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung erteilt werden, wenn die Bundesagentur für Arbeit nach § 39 zugestimmt hat
(Aufenthaltstitel bedeutet Visum, Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Niederlassungserlaubnis)
...
Und was steht in §39?
(1) Ein Aufenthaltstitel, der einem Ausländer die Ausübung einer Beschäftigung erlaubt, kann nur mit Zustimmung der Bundesagentur für Arbeit erteilt werden.

Interessant ist, dass der zweite Absatz von §39, wo „die nachteilige Auswirkung auf den Arbeitsmarkt, deutsche Arbeitnehmer usw.“ steht, sich nur auf Aufenthaltserlaubnis (befristeter Aufenthaltstitel) bezieht. Ist mir erst heute aufgefallen.

Auf http://www.xonder.at/cgi-bin/yabbserver/foren/F_0134/YaBB.cgi?board=zuw;action=display;num=1094768790
habe ich folgendes gelesen:
„aus realtiv sicher Quellen, weiss ich, dass für die ITler nach § 6 erteilte befristete Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung fort gilt“
Ist das doch die Hoffnung? Oder ist es wieder eine Aktion aus der Reihe „bei der Laune halten“?
Mein Gott, i we narrisch!

Sorry, noch ein Satz.
Ich glaube, ich drehe langsam durch.
Als damals die Leute in Deutschland wirklich gebraucht wurden, hat es sehr schnell und unbürokratisch funktioniert. Ich kann mich erinnern, im Konsulat in Kiev habe ich nicht einmal eine Stunde warten müssen (bei einer 5-km langen Schlange draußen). Die Bearbeitung wurde an einem separaten Schalter gemacht. In Deutschland hat’s am Amt alles auch sehr schnell funktioniert. Als sich herausgestellt hat, dass ich keine ärztliche Bescheinigung über Tuberkulöse hatte, hat mir der Chef der Ausländerabteilung ( oder wie die geheißen hat ) persönlich die Adresse eines Arztes gegeben.
Und jetzt, nach vier Jahren, ein Gesetz, in welchem nichts klar ist. Nur Interpretationen, Spekulationen und Gerüchte. Die offiziellen Antworten beinhalten nur Nebel, hinter dem die tatsächliche Antwort nicht sichtbar ist. Ist das doch eine Abfuhr? Warum auf so einer demütigenden Art und Weise? Egal wie es ausgeht, habe ich von dem Ganzen eine tiefe Narbe, die nicht so schnell zuwachsen wird.