Hi All, there was an open letter/petition to Bundestag sent some weeks ago:

http://german-green-card.org

Now comes an answer:

>>>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren der Initiativgruppe der IT-Fachleute,

für Ihre Anfrage vom 30. Juli 2004 an Herrn Bundesinnenminister Schily danke ich Ihnen. Ich bitte um Ihr Verständnis, dass es Herrn Minister bei der Vielzahl der täglich an ihn eingehenden Schreiben nicht möglich ist, auf jedes selbst zu antworten. Er hat daher mich beauftragt, Ihnen Auskunft zu geben.

Seit der Anwort des Fachreferates vom 17. April 2004 auf Ihre frühere Anfrage ist einige Zeit vergangen und das Zuwanderungsgesetz wurde verkündet, so dass es wie vorgesehen zum 1. Januar 2005 in Kraft treten wird.

Da der erste Green-Card-Inhaber frühestens im August nächsten Jahres einen fünfjährigen Aufenthalt vollendet haben kann, werden somit ausschließlich Bestimmungen des Zuwanderungsgesetzes für den weiteren Aufenthalt Anwendung finden. Zu Ihrer Frage, welche gesetzlichen Regelungen für Green-Card-Inhaber gelten, kann ich Ihnen folgendes mitteilen:

Nach den Übergangsbestimmungen gelten die bisher erteilten Aufenthaltsgenehmigungen bis zu ihrem Ablauf weiter. Somit wird sich zum 1. Januar 2005 kein Bedarf ergeben, die vorhandenen Aufenthaltserlaubnisse nach dem Ausländergesetz in Aufenthaltserlaubnisse nach dem Zuwanderungsgesetz umzuwandeln. Als Niederlassungserlaubnis gelten die unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis und die Aufenthaltsberechtigung fort. Sogenannte Green-Card-Inhaber können diese jedoch zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt nicht besitzen, da zuvor eine Mindestaufenthaltszeit von fünf bzw. acht Jahren erforderlich ist.

Die Frage, ob § 18 oder § 19 Aufenthaltsgesetz für IT-Fachkräfte anwendbar ist, wird sich damit im Wesentlichen für nach dem 1. Januar 2005 einreisende IT-Fachkräfte und bei denjenigen stellen, bei denen aufgrund eines Arbeitgeberwechsels die Erteilung eines neuen Aufenthaltstitels erforderlich ist, weil z.B. die bisherige Aufenthaltserlaubnis an einen Arbeitgeber gebunden war.

Dessen ungeachtet werden IT-Fachkräfte, die bisher nach den speziellen Verordnungen zugelassen wurden, in der Regel unter die Bestimmungen nach § 18 fallen.

Wie schon in der Begründung zu § 19 Aufenthaltsgesetz ausgeführt wird, wird mit dieser Regelung ermöglicht, hochqualifizierten Arbeitskräften, an deren Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet ein besonderes wirtschaftliches und gesellschaftliches Interesse besteht, von Anfang an einen Daueraufenthaltstitel in Form der Niederlassungserlaubnis zu erteilen. Die Vorschrift zielt damit auf Spitzenkräfte der Wirtschaft und Wissenschaft mit einer überdurchschnittlich hohen beruflichen Qualifikation, die sich dann auch in einer entsprechenden Gehaltszahlung widerspiegelt. Die geforderte Gehaltsgrenze beträgt derzeit ca. 84.000 EURO. Sie entspricht dem diesbezüglichen Vorschlag der Unabhängigen Kommission "Zuwanderung".

Die über die sogenannten Green Card Verordnungen zugelassenen IT-Fachkräfte, bei denen ein Gehalt von 51.000 Euro gefordert wird, soweit sie nicht über ein abgeschlossenes Studium im IT-Bereich verfügen, werden somit in der Regel keine Niederlassungserlaubnis nach § 19 Aufenthaltsgesetz erhalten können. Gleiches wird in der Regel auch für die Personen gelten, die nach § 5 Nr. 2 AAV eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis erhalten haben. Für sie besteht nur die Möglichkeit der aufenthaltsrechtlichen Verfestigung zur Niederlassungserlaubnis über die Regelungen des § 9 Aufenthaltsgesetz, der unter anderem den fünfjährigen Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis, die Sicherung des Lebensunterhalts und den Nachweis über mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung vorschreibt.

Zum Zuwanderungsgesetz bzw. zum Aufenthaltsgesetz (Artikel 1 des Zuwanderungsgesetzes) werden noch verschiedene Verordnungen erlassen. Sie werden ebenfalls zum 1. Januar 2005 in Kraft treten. Da die Arbeit an den Verordnungen selbstverständlich erst begonnen werden konnte, nachdem klar war, welche Inhalte das Gesetz haben wird, wie diese im Vermittlungsverfahren ausgestaltet werden und ob das Gesetz überhaupt in Kraft treten wird, kann schon aus diesen Gründen zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt keine Aussage zu konkreten Inhalten dieser Verordnungen gemacht werden. Darüber hinaus werden die Verordnungen in einem Verfahren erlassen, das einem Gesetzgebeungsverfahren entspricht.

Ich bitte Sie daher um Verständnis, dass Ihre Fragen zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt nicht vollständig beantwortet werden können.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Im Auftrag

Carola Ruppelt

Bundesministerium des Innern
Referat O 3 - Bürgerservice
Fax:01888/ 681 51991
E-Mail: buergerservice@bmi.bund.de

Hi,
Can someone please give a summary in English.

Regards!

The main idea: there is no easy way to get PR (Permanent Residence) in Germany for GreenCard people. Paragraph 19 (Highly qualified specialists) will not apply to you if you cannot get 84,000 Euro gross per year.

The only remaining door to get PR is to wait until your 5 year-visa expires and then you seem to qualify, because of Paragraph 9. It requires 5 year of Aufenthalserlaubnis (we are going all to have it), 60 months of pension fund payments (goes automatic with majority of Greencard people) and the ability to support yourself/your family.

What the person is not saying in her answer is the additional and very controversial condition, that is, to have permision to work in Germany. GreenCard permition to work expires just at the end of 5-year term. Without new permission, you seem not to qualify.

Bottom line - New German Legislature is a large file (many Kilobytes), it specifies almost everything about foreigers, but the most important thing for GreenCard people is missing. Are we going to be expelled or allowed to stay - no answer so far. The amazing result of 4-year public debate about immigration.

Exactly..
years of discussion regarding the immigration law.. and the result
is a catastrophe.. no positive effect for GCs with the new law..

There is nothing even mentioning the current GCs and look at the letter above.. it is confessing that there will be no(or difficult) PR for current GCs.. so where is the German media screaming/shouting after the new law ?

Where is the German state TV interviewing GCs after the law ?
Dont they owe to public an apology because of their false broadcasts.. ?

just frustrating..

Lacrima

Then it's clear: start packing and prepare yourself to go.

That's quite funny because I spoke with a loady owning an Immobilien Firma this afternoon and she told me that they could give an appartment to rent only if you had an unbefriestet aufenthaltserlaubniss. I just told her "fear not, mine is expiring in a little more than one year but it should be extended just after".

How optimistic was I, now it's just getting clearer that it won't be possible.

D.

5 years = good deal for Deutschland
after 5 years, GCer gets old, having children, creating load on social system, so... after 5 years, get new GCers which are young and having more power and motive than the old GC.

Deutschland is not making the same failure like 70s. Please try to understand it. We all came here with the 5 year limit and it will NOT BE prolonged. I am sick of reading mails starting with 'be positive guys', 'I am optimistic' etc.

Reality bites.

Well great, let's search for other places on the planet.

For example UK...

That is their decission, they are loosing, not us.

Vladimir

Guys, I really don't understand whar are you talking about!
The answer is clearly positive for us. After working for 60 months we can get an NE. What else do you want? A special low for GC? Are you serious!?

Yo pwehrli dude, I am with you. It is time to call a spade a spade and stop treating politicians like they saved the world and the GC’s. I mean things like “thank them” and “give a toast to the law makers" where said.

I said that this was a joke before, but no one wanted to believe me. I mean Fischer was in India(nothing against India or Indians, so do not start on me about that) and said it will now be easier for Indian IT works and Indian Companies to come and work and invest in Germany. What he was saying is, DE wants companies, not IT workers. Come on, it is all about money. IT was a sales pitch, but only for companies. So far this year the state of Hessen has 4000 unemployed IT workers and only 245 new IT jobs to offer. Now are they all stupid and dumb IT people. NO! Of course not. With numbers like that you do not need new IT people to immigrate and no matter what they say that one IT worker makes more jobs blah blah blah. They want Indian firms and firms to come here for all over the World to give jobs to the Germans. Not bring IT people.

First, Politicians can never be believed. The things they do are for their own names and careers and not for the people.

Second, What DE did with the GC was very smart and good for DE. I mean, they did the old, let us just try it and make it sound like a good deal. If things go bad, we only have to deal with it for 5 years or so and that will also give us time to see if IT is really in a bubble and about to break. If we need them, we will extend the stay, if not, we will stay quiet and they have to go. But we will not say they have to go! During the entire new Immigration Law, when and where were the GC’s talked about by law makers. They were’t! May mentioned it as an example of modern immigration etc, but not talked about like; “We need this law to attract highly qualified people and TO KEEP THE ONES WE ALREADY INVITED AND HAVE LIVING AND WORKING IN OUR COUNTRY FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW! No that is not how it went down. Which means, buy your tickets now or buy them later, but you are going to need one real soon.............

Later
Cool Dude

>>> Guys, I really don't understand whar are you talking about!
The answer is clearly positive for us. After working for 60 months we can get an NE. What else do you want? A special low for GC? Are you serious!?

grebov, let me explain you what kind of nasty thing can happen:

When your 5-year GC visum is close to expire, you go to Auslanderbehoerde and tell them about §9 and that you qualify for NE because you will have 60 months of pension fund payments and 5 year of Aufenthalterlaubnis at the timepoint when your visum is over.

But, §9 reads as follows:

§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis
1. er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,
....
5. ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,

So the crucial point if this work permission that expires together with your GC-visum. We still don't know if prolongation of this work permission will be granted easily.

They can always say: because of current political situation and massive unemployment, you are not allowed to work in Germany, therefore you are not allowed to get NE, and even additional, say, 1 year work visum is not allowed either. You must leave Germany in several weeks remaining of your GC.

Hi Guys. I'm new one, so please be gentle :-)

I don't know situation with GC and people comming outside of EU (that's me), but GC holders comming from new EU members (eastern EU) don't have any problems to exchange GC with permanent permission (right now). It looks like Germany is not worried about unemployment situation when we are talking about IT sector.

This is giving us some hope, or not?

Nice Nice! some seems to be worried and some are kewl and some are lazy to understand the bureaucracy and some have plans to quit and many many for all these my good word is wait n see what happens and try you best and good luck. I am in that kewl category!

GCers,

Most of have in their contracts saying that if the legal residency and work permit conditions expire, regardless of arbeitsvertrag unbefristet or befristet, automatically the agreement between employer and employee also expires. So legal working depends on legal work permit and residency permits. If you have work contract which is telling its unlimited, it may not be really unlimited.

So Gerry, is it clear for you ? What are you talking about at the end of 5 years going to Ausländerbehörde and getting more time from them ? Did you forget someone wrote on this from who was completing his legal permitted time in germany cant stay even with a tourist visa just to finish his/her paperwork with authorities,landlord etc.

GCers, wake up! What should i tell more ? I am not optimist nor pessimist. I just try to be realistic.

gerry, your explanation is wrong!
there is no need to wait for full 60 months in order to apply for NE.
you are supposed to apply before the end of your current 5-year AE. by the way this "5 year" condition is not introduced with the new immigration low. it's been there for years - and of course people ware supposed to apply for a new visum before the old one expires. so I still don't understand why you are so worried? I think the problem is more in people's head then in the law. :-)

Hi Grebov,

you are so right! I am glad that some people keep really cool :-)

I wish all of you a nice weekend!

Viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

Dear GC´s,

Is it good to remain cool endlessly?

Shouldnt educated people like us be realistic??

In India there is a proverb, "Only the crying child gets milk". And moreover only if you knock, will someone open the door. Its no use standing there and waiting, hoping that everything will go on well.

Maybe its time we speak out more determinantly instead of sitting around here and worshipping the politicians who consider us like dirt.

Worried
-Fred

HI2all,

I also do not understand a lot of you.
Someone wrote I want to be realistic. Well that is nice but how you know what is realistic and what is not. Are you minister ?

We need to wait and see. In few months there will be some officals explanations of new law. It looks to me that right now everybody just try to make speculations about it.

My visa is valid until middle of October next year and when I read your messages that we have to go I didn't feel good but on the other side I believe that we will get unlimited visa. If you have job, you paid everything you should pay, you did not have problems with law then you will stay (if you company wants you ;)).

According to new law unlimited visa will be granted to persons who are making more than 84.000€/year or limited visa will be granted to persons for who company can explain why it is necessary to have that person (I am talking about newcomers).

So if you have a job and your company wants to keep you (which means that you are good) company will write everything what is important that you get unlimited visa. Or even if you have to leave Germany because this did not succesed and company wants to work in future with you they can create that kind of requst that nobody can fit to it expect you ;) so you will come again.

Basicly I do not see problems in future if you are valuable for your company, you have a job and you are decent citizen

Stay calm and wait few more months because even if you have to go in second half of next year (like me) you will have enough time to search for something else beginning from next year so do not make additional difficulties now for you by bad thoughts.

Bye,
Dracus

P.S. You can notice that I wrote all the time "you" and this is because you don't believe and I do ;).

Für hoch Qualifizierte (wie Ingenieure, Informatiker und Führungspersonal in Wissenschaft und Forschung) wird der Anwerbestopp aufgehoben. Ein Daueraufenthalt ist von Anfang an möglich. Auch ausländischen Selbstständigen, die selbst Beschäftigung schaffen, wird der Zuzug erlaubt. Zudem wird ausländischen Studienabsolventen nach Zustimmung des Arbeitsamts eine Arbeitsaufnahme in Deutschland ermöglicht. Das bisherige doppelte Genehmigungsverfahren für den Arbeitsmarktzugang (Arbeit/Aufenthalt) wird vereinfacht. Für qualifizierte und unqualifizierte ausländische Arbeitskräfte gilt dagegen weiter der Anwerbestopp.

@bobo

Did you write this? Or if you took it from somewhere, please post it with the link.

Thanx,
-Fred

Sorry, but link doesn't work any more. This is text from reuters.de published at beginning of the summer:

http://www.reuters.de/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?
type=politicsNews&storyID=517557&section=news

Translated:

For highly qualified ones (like engineers, computer scientists and guidance personnel in science and research) the enlisting stop is waived. A continuous stay is from the outset possible. Also foreign independent ones, which create even occupation, the influx is permitted. Besides foreign graduates of study after agreement of the labour office a beginning of work in Germany is made possible. The past double licensing procedure for the job market entrance (work/stay) is simplified. To qualified and unqualified foreign workers against it the far enlisting stop applies.

original postet at: (13/08/2004 10:09 am)

@bobo: No probs. Found something similar when I searched for "Anwerbestopp aufgehoben" in google.de


Arbeitsmigration: Ein Punktesystem für den Zuzug ausländischer Arbeitskräfte wird es nicht geben. Für hoch Qualifizierte (wie Ingenieure, Informatiker und Führungspersonal in Wissenschaft und Forschung) wird der Anwerbestopp aufgehoben. Ein Daueraufenthalt ist von Anfang an möglich.
Mittelmäßig qualifizierte Arbeitskräfte sollen in begrenztem Umfang eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis bekommen - allerdings nur wenn sie einen Arbeitsplatz vorweisen können, für den es keine Bewerber aus dem Inland oder der EU gibt. Selbstständige können einwandern, wenn sie Arbeitsplätze schaffen oder Investitionen zusagen.
Zudem wird ausländischen Studienabsolventen nach Zustimmung des Arbeitsamts eine Arbeitsaufnahme in Deutschland ermöglicht. Das bisherige doppelte Genehmigungsverfahren für den Arbeitsmarktzugang (Arbeit/Aufenthalt) wird vereinfacht.
(Stand: 17.06.2004 11:19 Uhr )

Taken from:
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/
meldungen/0,1185,OID3305836_REF1_NAVSPM1,00.html

original postet at: (13/08/2004 10:29 am)

Hi folks

Just a stupid question to the lawyers of the forum:

Following the little bit of portion of new law you posted, I could quit my job on 31/12/04 and go back to my country.

My company could hire me starting from 1/1/05, I´m engineer, so I could receive a Niederlassungserlaubnis when I come to Germany again?

This sounds reaaaaly stupid, maybe take a couple of months and papers from your employer but sounds legal isn´t it?

Regards

YO

ha ha ha.... excellent idea indeed !!

but psssssst.... nicht so laut !

:-)
Fred

Yo all!

Sit back and wait and see what happens? Come on man, that is a bunch of crape. Wake up! It has nothing to do with being right, wrong, worried or cool. Hey, cool dude is always cool, so that is no problem. This issue has to do with being noticed. You need to be noticed or you will be passed by. Wait! GC's have waited and what do GC'S have? A new law that probably will not apply to GC's or will only apply when a certain official decides it applies to certain people. The new law does not provide anything new for the GC'S. So what will you wait for? GC's need to make noise and get the attention of law makers NOW! Now is the time to do that, so that when the framework of how this law will be applied, GC'S are mentioned or addressed. Some of you say do not worry GC'S have time. A year will go by fast and then it will be too late. You have to make noise now in order for something to even apply in a year. Waiting will be too late. This is not about being cool or calm, this is about getting want you want and what you need. Look at history and even in life. Those who just sit quietly get nothing or are last to be served. Those who make noise get heard and most of the time get all or something for their efforts. This is about trying to help form and create good things for GC'S not just sit back and be cool and just take what is given. That is what people without intelligence do. People with intelligence become part of the solution and process, not just sit and wait for what will or will not be handed out..............

The politicians have ignored GC'S Why is that? Simple. They do not value GC'S and GC'S have not made enough noise to get their attention. Look at the Hartz IV law. Why is it getting so much attention now? Because 1000'S of people are taking to the streets to be heard! If they just sit and wait, they will be passed by and they know this.

Why do you think that DE made a limit for 5 years and not 6 years or 7 or 8? Do you think this number was pulled from the air? No, that is what you need to get unlimited residence permit, but they do not want you to be able to apply for that. They want you to go and not stay permanently in DE.

Later,
Cool Dude

I don't really care. If they don't care about us, why should we care about them?

I will go to Belgium. Why? I will not tell you.

hi all,
I think 'coool dude' s comments make sense.
i mean GCs are being treated with some calculated palnning by the authorities right from the start of the GC law.
I heard sometime ago from some body, since Germany is not a welfare state like Norway or other scandinivean countries But is a Police state, So you have to know your rights according to law. Nobody will consider your case But only according to set laws.
Now if interier minister has said something about GCs, i think it needs to be taken seriously. it is not a question of remaining cool(blah blah).

regards

@bobo:

I know why. Politicians and GC holders there have backbones there! Maybe people know to speak out and fight for their rights !

-Fred

>>>Why do you think that DE made a limit for 5 years and not 6 years or 7 or 8? Do you think this number was pulled from the air? No, that is what you need to get unlimited residence permit, but they do not want you to be able to apply for that. They want you to go and not stay permanently in DE.


Not exactly... According to an Old Law, 5 years of GC visum were not enough to qualify for PR like it is under New Law. 5 years were calculated as a time to educate native IT-students.

That means, New Law makes it easier for GC to get PR.

Another important thing. Did you ever hear about old-style work permit, so called 5.2-visum? It was a normal work visum for Germany in pre-GC era. I know personally several 5.2-guys, we drink beer together in a Frankfurt bar every Friday evening.

Accourding to OLD Law, after 5 years with 5.2-visum, PR can be granted. It is not an abstract theory, i know people who spent 5 years with 5.2-visum and got Permanent Residence. The process was not automatic in theory (requires some formalities like basic German language, no crime, permission to work etc), but in real life, the guys were applying for PR close to 5 year term expiration and those application were accepted.

Within a new Law, GC-people are legally equal to those old-style 5.2-people. The only difference is: there was no precedent of GC getting PR, since no GC spent full 5 years term so far.

@fredjeffry

There is no GC in Belgium ;-)

You are f..g right.

I know a man who woke up some day a couple of years ago and thought "I´m here since 5 years already - I´ll go to AA to ask". Before this, this man during this time received a 1 year work permit each time for 5 times.

He went to AA before go to work, showed the passport, and in 2 working days he received the PR, no question, no courses, just controlling Finanzamt, fines and so on.

But who knows now.

By the way, most of the people of this forum wanted to make some noise, but nobody throws the first stone.

So Cool Dude, this time I´m with you and I personally think that is now or never, because some dark and clever beamter is writing the VwV right now and I guess is still time for us to be included

Any ideas?

YO

>>>By the way, most of the people of this forum wanted to make some noise, but nobody throws the first stone.

So Cool Dude, this time I´m with you and I personally think that is now or never, because some dark and clever beamter is writing the VwV right now and I guess is still time for us to be included
<<<

YO,

we have an ongoing project, http://german-green-card.org

Two petitions were sent, first one some months ago, second one some weeks ago.

Also we do plan to contact newpapers. Maybe they would be interested to publish some scandalous-titled articles (e.g. "New Immigration Laws says GreenCard are not high-qualified").

Do you have by any change a contact to suggest? Journalist, editor etc?

Hi YO, hi *,

regarding 'noise' and 'cool people'. I also agree, that you (I mean GCs) have to speak up loud and I support the work of Gerry and his friends. I just want to let you know, that I am still active, I just do not talk so much about it, because that's better sometimes.

Last week I met a high officer of the 'Arbeitsagentur' at my office. He is a member of the 'Zuwanderungsrat' and I talked to him about the unacceptable situation of knowing nothing for sure. His answers made me feel comfortable, but I can not talk about it here.

Besides this I am preparing a new service, together with some specialized lawyers, regarding 'Immigration Affairs'.

Again, a nice weekend to all of you
und viele Grüße aus Berlin
Detlef

P.S.: I am leaving the office right now, do not expect any more answers soon :-)

Hello Gerry,
This project http://german-green-card.org looks like interesting to me.. you guys seem to be doing useful stuff.. I mean sending out letters to government etc.. this is better than nothing..

I would like to be involved in your activities.. Unfortunately I dont know any Journalist, Editor etc... but I could "at least" sign the petitions that you guys are sending out as a gc-holder..

Do you guys have some kind of mail group or smt where you organize your activities ?

Take Care

Lacrima

Uh gerry, you´re right, sorry

for one moment I loose the goal.

I sent german-green-card.org an email, but with my name, surely you don´t know me. I also send some emails to other people of other web site (I think also in your group) but no answer

Suggestions not really. I think you write better than me. Journalist I only knew somebody from Spiegel who interviewed me, but I suspect I´m not so interesting to publish my opinions (the note didn´t appear ever)

From the beginning of this discussions, Sudaca, me and other are stressing the important point for us is TO KNOW. To know what? If we can stay or we should go. I´m not so happy with the case-by-case basis. Surely people from Bavaria will suffer, people from other states maybe can go better. Case-by-case is not fair.

We came here with a special regulation, is logic and fair to receive a special response from the government. Bare and simple f....g YES or f....g NO but an answer.

I don´t feel so comfortable speculating. I just want to know as soon as possible to decide. I have a family and I cannot wait to go to the AA after 5 years to receive a negative answer and run out from Germany a week later just before the police kick me out of here. I need to know soon.

But I consider really important for our future, to give a solid image. I think we have to join and decide to go together. I hate the idea of the Indi GC or the Pak GC or the Non EU GC or the Russian GC. We are all green cards of Germany and to ask seriously for something we have to go together.

We have to accept 80% of the journalist seeking for GC ask first for Detlef. He have made a lot for our image, he was on national TV more than one time. Let´s ask him for the contacts.

Maybe is possible to open a Form in a page to get GC signatures. I´ve just see Lacrima had similar idea.

But, please let´s make a ammount greater than 10 GC. We are .... about 14000? Let´s make some noise!

Regards

YO

@Detlef:
Nice to see your message. At first you asked everyone to keep silent, but now as more noise is coming out, you seem to support. Very happy about it.

Now please dont take this as if I am arguing with you. With due respect I should say that I support when YO says:

<<<<I don´t feel so comfortable speculating. I just want to know as soon as possible to decide. I have a family and I cannot wait to go to the AA after 5 years to receive a negative answer and run out from Germany a week later just before the police kick me out of here. I need to know soon.>>>>

Maybe you have to keep silent about the services you are going to start in 2005 due to competition or laws or whatever. But till then, all the GC´s are dying everyday from within in their heart and spirit.

We MUST know from the officials what they plan to do with us to the earliest possible, because corrections and changes are possible only before the book goes to print!

-Fred
fredjeffry at hotmail dot com

PS: Guys, maybe you can sign with either your firstname or atleast the place where you live. I am a lonely GC from near Wiesbaden and would like to get to know atleast a few of you.

@gerry
what about meeting in Wiesbaden/Frankfurt next Friday?

I am not a lawer.
-------------------------
Hey you people whining about the impossible condition of having a workpermit that goes beyond GC period - stop whining!

Because there is no such condition.

Look how the stuff works: once you apply for NE (Niederlassungserlaubniss = permanent residence AND work permit) you implicitly applying for unlimited work permit. This is one of the new things in the new legislation, NE has unlimited workpermit included - no agreement from Arbeitsamt needed.

So what do you need to get an NE granted?
Among others - a valid work permit, but it only has to be vaild from the moment you send your application and untill the end of the 5 years period of your legal stay in Germany. Not necessarily longer, because when you get NE, you are getting unlimited work permit automatically anyway.

I can tell you why it is so, but this part is just an educated speculation of mine. There is a european law, which states that every foreighner stayed in the EU for no less that 5 years lawfully
must be given an unlimited residence permit on request. It also says that EU member countries must make it possible through their according local laws until the year 2006.

The link to this law is available somewhere on this forum.

So pretty much everybody:
who physically stayed in Germany for at least 5 years
, has GC now
, and worked or was _officially_ jobless

is going to get NE = permanent residence and unlimited work permit

So do not worry. Be happy ( which is valid anyway anytime anywhere :-)

>>>
So pretty much everybody:
who physically stayed in Germany for at least 5 years
, has GC now
, and worked or was _officially_ jobless
is going to get NE = permanent residence and unlimited work permit
<<<

Hm, nice point. The idea of two work permits - one, limited GC visa, and another one, implicitely present in NE (those two covering every single day of your presence in Germany) - really impresses me.

When applying for NE (say, 2 weeks before expirations of your GC), you still don't have full 5 years, but Auslanderbeherde guys are routinely accepting such application and give them positive move.

For example, when a spouse of German national requests a Permanent Residence (after 2 years, according to Law), she does it *before* she has full 2-years term, and such application are processed OK. The situation is totally analogous with GC. A spouse has the legal right for RP after 2 years, GC after 5 years, but both may apply for it before they have it.

I have read this info about spouses on a forum where Auslaenderbehoerde guys are answering questions.

Of course, some additional commentary of a lawer would be helpfull.

>When applying for NE (say, 2 weeks before expirations of your GC), >you still don't have full 5 years, but Auslanderbeherde guys are >routinely accepting such application and give them positive move.

IANAL

It is totally irrelevant if you applying for NE before you have 5 years behind yourself. If you have all valid documents that make you able to fullfill the conditions I have stated above, Auslanderbeherde guys will be happy (and will have to) to accept your application. If they are late with their decision and you have exhausted your 5 years, your right to stay is extended unitll the decision is made.

Of course the application can be made a reasonable amount of time before expiration date - AFAIK it is 6 months.

I am not saying that you can come with GC in 2004 and immediately apply for NE to have it staring from 2009. But if you have 6 months left before the expiration date of your GC it's OK.

Hi gerry hi all....

Do you still need jurnalist ?
I have some best friends in DW (Deutche Welle) and SPIEGEL and some contact hier-there.....( I mean really)...
If you want this help - tell me. I can make contacts.
I really do not understand law, paragraps that and this...I am Europe GC wich ONLY country is not and will never be in EU , and I am with all my family hier and I do not have any one no where in all world and I have 37 my visum expiries 2005 and I can not go back at 40 years leave my family in street....
So I am for ...

Traurig, traurig...
Wir, die vom bundeskanzler persönlich in das land eingeladen wurden, sind jetzt in die gleiche lage wie die asylbewerber versetzt, die jeden tag auf die entscheidung von behörden warten müssen um paar tage später abgeschoben zu werden.
Dabei in unserem fall kann die entscheidung der arbeitsagentur nicht einmal bestritten werden, diese entscheidung wird durch kein gesetzt reglamentiert.
Was für eine erniedrigung nach vier jahren lügen! Und diese befragungen, an welchen wir alle mit solchem enthusiasmus teilgenommen haben. Die ergebnisse dieser befragungen wurden bestimmt gegen uns verwendet.
Ich weiss nicht, ob ich in diesem land noch bleiben will, aber so richtig mit der tür knallen würde ich schon. Sammelklage beim europäischen gericht? Petition an die europäische kommission? Enschädigungsforderungen? Wofür? Systematischer betrug und irreführung innerhalb von vier jahren? Fernsehen? Aber nicht ARD oder ZDF. Das sind die letzten nuten. Vielleicht kulturzeit redaktion bei 3Sat oder ARTE? Dort regieren nicht nur die deutschen politiker. Von den zeitungen vielleicht TAZ oder le monde? Deutsche intellektuelle? Gibt es in diesem land noch welche? Das alles hat auch moralische aspekte, betrifft die wertediskussion dieser gesellschaft. Menschen holen, wenn man sie braucht, und dann sie einfach rausschmeißen. Das ist doch so einfach! Sollten wir glücklich sein, dass sie uns dann nicht erschiessen.

Fortrust,

what the hell are you talking about? That's bloody nonsense!

Better you stay away from us, I am sure... you are no GC!

Peer

>>>> I can tell you why it is so, but this part is just an educated speculation of mine. There is a european law, which states that every foreighner stayed in the EU for no less that 5 years lawfully
must be given an unlimited residence permit on request. It also says that EU member countries must make it possible through their according local laws until the year 2006.
<<<<<

***Council Directive 2003/109/EC***
of 25 November 2003
concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents

http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?
smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=
EN&numdoc=32003L0109&model=guichett

original postet at: (13/08/2004 7:38 pm)

EU Directive isn’t law, it's impossible to apply it direct; it should be transported in German law through the national law.
Article 26
Transposition
Member States shall bring into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive by 23 January 2006 at the latest.

Article 3
Scope
2. This Directive does not apply to third-country nationals who:
(e) reside solely on temporary grounds ...

It's unknown whether the GCs are in G on not temporary grounds.

Hey pere,
read the low very good and you will realize, that the chance to get NE is very low. The decision about NE makes Agentur für Arbeit based on current situation on labor market and there are no definitions, how it must be done. But expectance is rather pessimistic.
If you 25, the moving to new place is for you only one adventure or you can get married in Germany or so on. But if you 40, 15 years before you was working on construction sites, you are coming from the country, which is one big ruin and if one policeman sees your pass you are automatically suspected as criminal and droggendealer – it’s another view of life

Sorry, one sentence more. I think, that this kind to handle with us, without directly saying YES or NO, is one ABASEMENT!

Und was wissen wir aus diesem artikel? Wir sind alle als mittelmäßig qualifizierte eingestuft. Die behauptung grenzt an einer beleidigung, kann man aber nichts machen. Das steht eindeutig im brief vom innenministerium. Zum erhalten der NE nach 5 jahren ist der vorgang der zustimmung der agentur für arbeit der gleiche, wie zum erhalten der AE für neueinreisende ( § 39 des gesetzes ). Uns jetzt versuchen wir einem beamter zu erklären, warum sind wir durch die frischgebackenen absolventen der deutschen universitäten nicht ersetzbar sind.

Dear Friends,
we all know that any country give first priority to the problems of their own citizens.This is same with germany too, we should be more happy that we are in germany than some middle east countries where a foreigner is treated like a peice of shit.As long as we worked here the system and the law treated us equal in every respect.

We came to this country by accepting 5 year valid work permit.So we don't have a right to protest and argue for extending this.
but personally I think if you want to stay in germany for long you don't need any law,nothing so called zuwanderungs bla bla (For me it is one of the biggest law blunder in history becasue they are not going to get 10 people migrated to this country with this law).
Only thing you need is an employer saying to the govt that we need this guy.I think no capitalistic democratic govt. in the world will reject it.Once you finish your 6 year term in the country and you speak fluent german no body will deany a PR to you if anybody say no just file a case in the court the law will protect you.
So just make sure that you are important to your existing employer that will protect you otherwise he will use this a nice opportunity to kick you out because firing is not so easy in germany.

"you finish your 6 year term in the country", first you gotta pass your 5 years, where did you read about some 6 years somewhere? To do 6 years, you should have done 5 years already and passing these 5 years and still being here, means you already got your PR so why bother putting 6 years as a reference?

D.

Yo rishykesh

“we all know that any country give first priority to the problems of their own citizens” If that was true, GC’s would not be living nor have a job in Germany at this very minute, unless they had VERY VERY special IT skills and I do not mean a diploma and a few years programming experience, which is what many GC’s had when they came.

Your post is really sweet and really sounds like wonderland. Yeah, wake up everyday and be thankful. Sounds wonderful! But life has a reality and that is this..... GC’s would like a firm and complete answer as to the future of. GC’s and they are tired of waiting for “let us wait and see what happens”. This is not the anwser as to if your car loan application will be approved or not. This is about people and not knowing what country they will be living in and these people have wives and children and some are getting older. Not everyone is in their 20‘s with tons of time to move around.

“As long as we worked here the system and the law treated us equal in every respect.” Right!!!!! And the sun shines bright here everyday also.........

The law will protect you? Yo dude, wake up! What about GC’s who had to leave, because they lost their job before one year and HAD TO LEAVE and could not get unemployment or longer AE and losing the job had to do with the economy and nothing to do with kissing the boss’s ass......... Where they protected? And there are many other stories, where the law did not protect GC’s........

If you lose your job after working 2 years, do you get an automatic extension for an entire year of AE for unemployment benefits, which you are entitled to and have paid? Not really. Many have gotten extensions, but many for only 3 months and then they have to go back and bag for another extension and then another, which is not guaranteed.

One thing must be made clear. As far as the new law at this point, I do not see anything that will help or that is for GC’s, unless you make 84,000 a year. I mean the new law as written today, does not directly address the people who are already living here in a proper way. That seems to be the biggest problem. But they will write how the law should be applied and this is what we need on our side and to influence. Not to wait and hope the courts and law will help us later.

Also, please do not believe that you can not lose your job in Germany so easily. It is a little more difficult in Germany than some countries, but still not so difficult. Many Germans have already experienced that......just ask them about “”Mobbing”.........


Later,
Cool Dude

bist du krank, oder nicht normal????