I am going to tell you all a little story.

I had a friend sometimes. Every time when I (or someone from our college-team) wanted to say what I think and feel - honestly, there was a guy who was always trying to prove that his point of view was more logical, more better, more perfect than everyone else's. Every time when someone was trying to pursuade him that his oppinion is wrong, that someone went out of that conversaton hurted.

He always understood the world completely different from all of us. Even when he knew that he was wrong, he was against us all. Just to be the opposition. Sometimes he provocated an argue, and then he stood back and enjoyed his clever "I knew it!" attitude.

To cut the story short, this guy ended up selling donuts. On every generation meeting he was the main guy - the show man. We all knew that and everyone of us just hated sharing that same table with such a person, but then, we all did, because he was always coming on our annual meetings just to "show" us. At the end, he was selling donuts and because of that he had the right to be the prettiest, the smartest, the loudest, the BIG SHOT! We were all "only" engineers, doctors, professors that anyway do not know anything about "real life" and for God's sake, he is the one "with the life experiance and wisdom" and therefore his "street knowledge" might be usefull to some of us sometimes.

But when the show was over, he was just an ordinary guy with rethoric that hurts, but do not have the strength of an arguments.

Marc has the right to have his own oppinion. Of course... I respect that. But he is wrong. Not even a single word that he speaks is on the spot and I do not want to argue with such a person, because I am not a little kid whose favorite toy was taken by some little girl and now the mummy must come to sort things out.

So people - I didn't leave the site. I just moved myself to a chat topic that I set up and in the future I will be there awaiting for a German conversation with JODDY for example. :-)))

Marc, are you in the mood to join us in German? I will be happy to see you writing there.

Detlev, I do not want to open my company. Even if I do, that will be something that has nothing to do with Engineering. I will probably open a little French-like Cafeteria where I am going to sit every morning, drink my cofee and read my favorite newspaper. From time to time I like donuts with Capuccino.

Maybe I will employ someone who makes "the best" donuts in the world and who will "show everyone" that making donuts is really "an art" comparing to everything what we do here.

Just kidding (about donut part in last sentence, of course :-)).

Best regards.

D.

Hi, Dejan!

I can imagine that you are really annoyed at the practise of the greencard-Regulation. So am I. Let`s hope there will be better laws in future...

It is clear, that you try to find a way which would guarantee you a real perspective and above all certainty.

But it is scarcely possible for you to get another working and residence license.

That your friend got apparently better permits has something to do with the international structure/orientation of his company.

I guess, your friend´s company is rather big.

There are three possibilities for the company to apply for "normal high skilled expert-permits" on a two years basis (which can be extended):

1. the headquarters of the company is in the home country of the expert and the company want the expert to work in the German branch, ´cause he has special for the company very important skills.

2. the expert is employee in an international group or company (abroad) and his work is very important for the high production quality. He can come to the German branch as an expatriate.

3. the company can prove that there is a "public interest" in the employment of the expert because of his knowledge. (usually international companys)

Anyway, all those cases are very special and only your company can apply for it.

Your friend might have been lucky...

I also have a request, Dejan, you wrote that you don`t want to talk about your experience "on the job" and "at the start" ... But I would like to know some details about that...so I`d be very pleased if you will write an e-mail: j.weissenberg@t-online.de

Regards

Jens

Welcome to Germany!!! Yes you are a foreigner and they treat you like it. You are beneath them. You are here to work because obviously you are desperate. I am from Australia where I have left family, nice people, great weather, a beautiful enviornment, money, future, etc etc etc to come to place where I am treated by the authorities like I am a burden on society and that they are doing ME a favour. I came here just for a cultural experience and to really learn about this country so I am in a different situation to you however many things changed whilst I was here....and now I can't wait to get out.

Essentially you have been fucked over by this Green Card program not unlike so many others. After working here for a year of so I had the opportunity to start a business here with some others until I found out that unless I was employing more than several people and bringing in lots of money, I would have been booted out. So I have halted my plans for the concept here in Germany and I am taking it to the UK. Just what a struggling Germany needs. Even if I created 5 jobs and could support myself then why not let me stay? Germany needs jobs......

This green card program is a serious exploitation of foreigners. The powers that be here in Germany give you virtually no info on it at the when you apply and they expect you to know the rules and regulations as if they were taught to you at school. Why do they not give you any information on the program when you come here? Because they have the attitude "Come to our country, pay full tax and social security but don't expect anything for it because we will kick you out before you are entitled to it". Does that seem fair to you? Why don't they give us all of the rules of this program when we apply? Because it is not a good deal. Who would agree to this otherwise? If a private enterprises did that here in Germany then the unions would come down on them like a ton of bricks but because we are sucker foreigners and we are dealing with the government, they get away with it.

As a foreigner I seem to attract more foreigners as friends so it is strange how every one I know who is not German (and even some germans) can not wait to get out of this place. That is no exaggeration. It is because this is not a good place for foreigners. It is said that Germany is a multi cultural society which it is but the foreigners will never be seen as being German.

Unless you are like I was and are just looking for the cultural experience I would not recommend Germany to anyone wishing to come here and if they still want to, just use it as a stepping stone to something better. I would say go to the UK or some other place where you will be treated as an equal instead of a "foreigner". This is a real sad situation but there is probably no way around it.

Anyway, I am off to the UK soon where I have been welcomed by the authorities. I am sad to leave but at the same time I am looking forward to earning a lot more money, being treated like an equal and getting away from the German regulations.

Good luck

Bob "sour grapes" Creasote

This company story is pretty demotivating for me because I am planning to start a company by the end of next when my contract with your current employee expires.

How did you start the company here ? With or without German shareholders ?

I am alone and I wonder if this would be a problem.

Atreides,

Like I said, you are being fucked over by this program but it is possible. Yes, the guys I were teaming up were Germans but that makes no difference. You need to have a serious business plan and some seriously good projections for your business to make it work. Just don't expect it to be easy as it is a case by case situation. There is some bullshit article that Deltef or some other moderator probably wrote on this site in the success stories section.

Business plans are serious work if you do them properly. Can you speak excellent German? Because you will need that too because civil servants as a general rule are too stupid to speak English (or just plain can't be arsed). Back in the days when I couldn't speak a word of German (thankfully, now is not such a problem) I had one lady from the Foreigners Office tell me that English is not allowed to be spoken there! The agression that she used in the tone of her voice is hard to forget.

Remember you are a foreigner in this land and you allowed to stay for one reason, and that is for the good of the land. Read through these forums for a start and see how others have been treated. Some of the stories have made me cringe with disbelief. I actually have a bangladeshi working for me and he told me that it is not far from the truth. I am just lucky that I look like a German so I don't get any grief. I have never seen racism from the authories like I have here in Germany. It is clear from these forums that Germany is not a country for foreigners.

cheers

Bob

Hi Bob,

nice to have a guy from 'Down Under' here. Unfortunately I can not say that your critic is wrong and yes, I am a German and many times I am dreaming of living in another country, like New Zealand where I have been several times and where I met very nice people. They are more open for other people from different nations than we, the Germans, are. And I remember the last Olympic Games in your country, fantastic! I do not think that we can have something comparable here in Germany, but we have some good things here, too. Nice people, not so nice people, clever guys and stupid guys, like everywhere.

And we have a 'Sprichwort' saying: Wie man in den Wald hinein ruft so schallt es heraus!

This means something like: The way you behave, polite or rude, the way you will get it back.

Sorry, but I do not know the right words in English, but I guess you will get it.

I guess some of your problems are caused by yourself, if you speak like you write here in this forum. Beeing polite can open many doors, beeing rude can close them.

The success story comes from an Indian friend and I know a handful other GCs who had been successful in starting their own business. You are right, this is not easy, but it is possible.

This is quite a long message for me. Take it or leave it ;-)

Viele Grüsse aus Berlin
Detlef

Bob.

I am not sure yet if Germany is the absolute place for foreigners or not..

but one thing I feel frm us msgs is that Germany is definitely not the place for U..

I would suggest that U move on to UK asap and not waste even 1 single moment of Ur life here in Germany.. where U just find problems...

I use to live in UK before moving to Germany... UK is also not that rosy for foreigners Bob.. to put across my point well enuf, here is a small example, there is no unemployment-insurance for foreign workers working in UK.. if one looses his/her job in UK, U have no option to get any support from the government whilst U r looking for another job...

Germany on the other hand gives U an equal oppportunity by giving enuf time and unemployment money in order to support U in ur hard times...

I m not saying that Germany is better than UK.. or vice-versa.. I guess each place is unique in its culture and offerings.. so it might be worth thinking that is it the country which is bothering U or Ur own attitude..

cheers and have a nice week
Nitin

Hello greens,

It is completely nonsense for me to discuss if Germany is the right place for immigration or living as an expatriate. I am here and any effort for relocation ( e.g. UK or US ) is loss of time. That is how I see it. ( This is completely a personal view )

Additionally, I believe there are not many options for an IT expert.For example I would never go to UK or Norway to start an IT company. While it is not easy here in south Bayern, I believe the mountains, Munich, short trips to Italy and Austria are pretty nice. US is far and other developed countries are too cloudy to spend the rest of my life.

My current bottleneck seems like lack of German and lack of information regarding to the general start up procedures.

I would like to invite all greencarders who have running start ups to share their experiences, because it looks like there is nobody who can help us in these issues except each other.

I am located near Munich and would also enjoy to discuss such issues with some beer if anybody is interested in a gathering.

Regards,

Hi all,

Nitin malhotra is absolutely right. It is better to search for a place where you find the best and likely to live environment. Basically it is difficult to choose a place at the first instance and I think you will have to see & experience on your own rather than asking your friends. I do strongly believe that their are negative and positive aspects behind this green card program but I think it is a great opportunity one can take to learn german culture and its people. And my experience tells that Germany is economically strong standing in 3rd position throught out the world so there must be land of oppotunities here and it needs patience & time for being successful therefore luck plays a big role. Who cares how ur german neighbour behaves if he give respect then I 2 will do otherwise IGAL. so everything is up to you, be more selfish for these kind of things and you will achieve grt things.

one example,
recently there was a land of opportunity for me in my company to earn more money for participating in third level support. But my team leader had broken everything coming to me I don't know why but he made himself through and now he is earning it. So I thought myself when you land in a foriegn country do not expect more just get what is coming to you.

ciao,
Nitin

Holding my breath here

Hi Dejan,

I hope that I can make you feel better a little bit. The reason for extending the Green Card sheme is the following:

Originally the new Immigration Law should replace the Green Card sheme. The new law was expected for the 1st of January 2003, therefore the Green Card should have been finished at the end of July this year. Because the new law was stopped by the 'Bundesverfassungsgericht' our government has to do something. There was no chance of an agreement with the oppostion parties CDU and CSU and without them no new law has a chance, because the opposition has the majority in the 'Bundesrat'.

The government act very clever, they just extended the Green Card sheme. Therefore they did not need the opposition and now it is easier to discuss the new law, because of this strategic trick, there is not such a big time pressure on the deal in the 'Vermittlungsausschuss' of the Bundesrat.

I know, this sounds very complicated and it is complecated. At the moment we have the strange situation, that we have a government with the majority in the Bundestag, but they can not govern our country, because the opposition parties have the majority in the Bundesrat. In our 'link section' we have some links to official websites in English, which make it easier to understand the German system.

Back to your situation and the situation of all GCs. I think we will get the new Immigration Law, because the big companies want it, the BDI (Bundesverband der Industrie) and many other organisations with big political influence. Even the politicians know, that we need you and the other experts. Germany is in a difficult situation and it would be absolutely stupid and deathly for our economy, if we would cick people out who already integrated in our social system, who learned our language, more or less, and who are needed by the companies where they work.

So relax. In about 4 weeks we will know more. That's the time when the 'Vermittlungsausschuss' will announce his decision. Even in the 'Most worth case', there are some possibilities.

If your 5 years are over and you still want to stay in this crazy country Germany, I hope you will ;-) your company can apply for an extension of your work permit, because they can not find somebody else, who can fulfill your position. And even with our old law, you can apply for a permanent residence permit after working here for 7 or 8 (I am not sure) years.

So be self-confident! If you are good in your job, an expert, than we, the Germans, need you more than you need us!

Good night
Detlef

I am coming back to this forum after some weeks, and I am so happy to see the posts of the last days! Looks like now I am not the only one writing long posts!! ;-)

Dejan, I just wanted to say how moved I was from your last post. Man, you are so right! Your enumeration of the things we've left and we've brought made me think in so many aspects; allow me to say, the "grave of our ancestors" line... never thought on that definition before, and is right on the key...

As most of you already know here, I come from Sudamerica; our countries were built by guys that left their ancestors behind, those silent graves, those noisy south-italian villages, the mist of the Basque hills, the Piedmont Valdense reducts, the winds of Galicia, for pursuing a dream. They even saw their ancestral family names changed (for example, all "yugoslavs" saw their "-ic" names changed to "-ich", to fit the spanish pronunciation).

They built countries, in a real, profund way. In times in which so much is discussed about violent "nation building" experiments, it is good to remember the immigration experience at the begining of the XX century. People fleeing from wars and starvation, looking to make "America" ("make the America" was a synonim of "becoming rich" in many european languages not so far ago...)

Yes, we also had destruction and killings, millions of native americans and big civilizations were destroyed, millons of africans came as slaves. But then, not that far ago, again the europeans were coming to our lands. And they were received as friends, and they helped building nations.

Could it be possible, now, the other way of this tide? I sincerely hope so: our sons will inherit whatever we build now, and everyone here, Germans or newcomers, will be responsable for that.

Dejan, thank you for your post, again!

Have a nice day,

Diego aka Sudaca.

Hi Sudaca!

It is soooo good to have you back :-)

Have a nice weekend
Detlef

Dear bitter Bob Creasote,

Your very own home country, Australia is shutting its doors for foreign IT specialists altogether:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/employment/0,39020648,39117861,00.htm

In the US and in the UK discussion on issuing visas did begin recently and limitations where imposed. It just not fair to say Germany treats IT specialits any worse than other developed countries.

Unlike many others here, English is probably your first native language? Why where you unable to get all the information you wanted before moving here? Even the authorities (e.g. Arbeitsamt online) publish Green Card related information in plain English.

@dejand

"We are giving the best that we have - our minds, our skills, our knowledge accumulated with the hard work over the years...
We bring enthusiasm, strength, the new way of thinking...we bring the love and respect towards Germany and german people. ..."

You pretty much expressed, how immigration and integration should work in an ideal world. One point you're missing is, when the GC scheme was started this happened on the grounds of the industry calling for IT specialists who had specific skills which were said to be in short demand. At no time, there was an agreement accross political parties, interest groups and German society, that immigration in general was wanted and needed. Right from the start, the GC scheme was just a way to supply staff to (mostly) dot-com companies.


"We bring money also, because we are paying everything that germans are paying (tax, social security, pensions, unemployment ensurance, law ensurance, etc.)...."

Well... this is not entirely true, as the money you "bring" has been earned here in the first place. If someone else whould do your job, maybe that person would "bring" i.e. earn even more money?

Regards

Marc

Hello Dejan,

I would like to strongly advise you to review your 'self conscious' outlook on how the job market, employment in general and employer-employee relationships actually work - everywhere in the world.

Today employers consider their employees as a (human) resource, a cost factor and a commodity good. Companys do _not_ feel the need to provide prospective employees with a long term perspective, stability and life long job security. This has been the case in the past, but those days are over.

You complain about what might happen 2 1/2 years in the future due to the uncertainty of the new German immigration law. Think about what would actually happen if you became unemployed tomorrow: In Germany with German GC, in the US with H1-B, in the UK with FTV. Then think again, which country provides decent levels of security and stability to the people living in that country - regardless of their origin.

You can stomp up lound and shout "Germany is not good enough for me and my extraordinary skills because I want more security and long term perspective". Really you're just making a fool of yourself, as 90% of the worlds population dream of planning two years ahead - they live from day to day and every disease, every accident, every winter and every day without a fridge in the kitchen and without a supermarket in their village is a challence for their lives.

You're from an Eastern European country - right? Please think about the day to day standard of living in your home country, before demanding more stability and security elsewhere.

Regards

Marc

Hallo Mark,

Thanks for your answers. You are absolutely right. I must learn a lot more before I get myself more deep involved in discussion about this topic.

Nice Evening to you all. It was a great experiance being here.

Dejan

Hi Marc-OS.

Marc-OS >> "You pretty much expressed, how immigration and integration should work in an ideal world. One point you're missing is, when the GC scheme was started this happened on the grounds of the industry calling for IT specialists who had specific skills which were said to be in short demand. At no time, there was an agreement accross political parties, interest groups and German society, that immigration in general was wanted and needed. Right from the start, the GC scheme was just a way to supply staff to (mostly) dot-com companies.
"

this is a two fold relationship where Germany gets highly skilled people, which germany isnt able to produce in its own capabilities.. and where Germany gets these skills without having put even a single cent in educating these skilled GC's, without having put even a single cent in the social system/administration/infrastructure of the country where these GC's come from.. not to forget that German government is putting billions of dollars in the education/social system of germany just to educate and get the new generation upto that standard.. in contrast to getting these skills without having to invest any money in these soo called GC's

and in turn, GC's get a democratic/relaxed/organized/safer/beautiful German to live..


"We bring money also, because we are paying everything that germans are paying (tax, social security, pensions, unemployment ensurance, law ensurance, etc.)...."

Marc-OS >> Well... this is not entirely true, as the money you "bring" has been earned here in the first place. If someone else whould do your job, maybe that person would "bring" i.e. earn even more money?

Nitin Malhotra >> Dont forget that This "someone else" would again be another GC. not a german. Because if there was any German to fill in this job, then no GC would have been recruited to fill in this jobs.

Nitin

Marc, where have you been all this time?

After all this time of silence, what is indeed moving you to write? My main question is: do you have something TO SAY, rather than arguing AGAINST the things people post here? I just don't remember ANY post from your part in which you presented your ideas, your original beliefs, your thoughts, your reflexions. Until now, all we have received from your part is confused rethoric around a dated leitmotiv: why Germany doesn't need immigration. Note the "doesn't": your arguments have always been on the negative, never on the positive.

After a long parenthesis of silence, well, I was at least intrigued to see what "MarcOS" was posting. And here is what I find: the same old sophisms, the same old approach "I have the truth in my hands", the same old disdain for any other kind of opinions. But indeed, nothing, nothing new. At this point, it is pretty clear then that you will never post an original approach, but rather stick to the old street-fighter discipline: let the other make the move, and I will counter that move with all my arsenal.

Therefore, I feel I need to ask you, Marc: what is indeed your opinion on the subject? I mean, not your counter-opinions, but your vision of the situation. You may say "hey, it is clear I am against immigration", but if it is not too much to ask, could you elaborate a little bit, this time based on your positive beliefs and not in the systematic denigration of other posts here?

In any case, this discussion around immigration allows two approaches: the pragmatic, immediate one, and the long, social, demographical, historical analysis. If we target the immediate, say, the next 100 years, it is clear that in one way or another, Europe needs immigration.

But Marc... if we target the long run one, well, this has leaded Europe - and indeed Germany, in dramatical proportions - many times to the abyss of self-denying. Europe HAS been land of immigrations from the dawn of manhood. This piece of land you call Germany was a corridor for uncountable waves. Before the "modern" germans with this marvelous language you are so proud of, the Romans were here, right? And before them, a myriad of Celtic tribes. And before, and before, through the Neanderthalers and back...

As you surely now, the "germans", those tribes speaking more or less a similar language (think on the Ulfilas Bible), in fact INVADED this land, and not that slowly, pushing the border to the Rhine-Donau line, and then south and south. But in any case: when would you trace the line and say "whoever is in, is German, whoever is out, is auslender? On the 2nd century before Christ? On the fourth after? After Charlemagne? After Barbarossa? After Luther? After Friedrich the Great? After Napoleon? After Bismark? After the 3rd. Reich? After Brandt? After Gorbachev?

In conclusion: personally, I think the discussion "who was here first" takes you nowhere but to an abyss, whether this is in Palestina or in Western Europe. This is what I think, but perhaps it's because I come from South America, where the native population was humilliated in one of the hugest massacres ever by europeans, the same that brought enslaved africans... and still was more or less ready to give it another try on the begining of the XX century. In any case, I cannot help the strongest skepticism grow strong within myself whenever anyone speaks of "I was here first, this is my land". But this is me.

What do you think, Marc? Can you define exactly what is your position?

Otherwise, from your negative posts, one may be forced to think that you really believe in Germania as a static, eternal, natural consequence of history, the crossing point of linguistic supremacy and necessary lebensraum.

Is that true?

Have a nice day,

Diego aka Sudaca.

PS: sorry, looks I am back in shape with the longitude of my posts!

PSS: hey, Dejan, don't go: you DO belong here. You certainly belong to this Forum.

Dear Friends ,

We need everyone in the forum .. We need Dejan .. We need Marc. Its wonderful to have such learned freinds who are here to educate and clear the doubts.

Lets not fight .. not argue ..lets not put anyone down. Lets not talk negative about Countries too..

Lets help each other!!!!

Regards

Mani

Hello Everyone and Marc.

All of Marc's point r correct except that he was a lil harsh on Dejan. that is the only point why I wrote counter responses to his messages..

friend Marc is absolutely correct in whatever he is writing.. just take a step back and analyse what he is saying. I dont see anything wront in his points...

mani is right.. our aim is not to argue and fight over here.. but to find to wish for a mutual solution to this problem...

best of luk to all of us
Nitin Malhotra

Hi Sudaca,

thanks for taking the time to write such a long message!

I absolutely agree with you, I was just to lazy to write so much :-)

Sure, there are some points in Marc's message, but for all of us who know him from before, it is obviously, that he just likes to argue and that he tries to discourage people. I am afraid he was successful with Dejan. So Dejan, come back. Especially if you really want to start your own business, you need a much thicker skin. In German: Du brauchst ein 'dickes Fell'!

Do not go if someone has different points of view, life is like that.

Sudaca, like you I am waiting for Marc's response!

Have a nice evening, all of you
Detlef

Dear Sudaca,

please relax - did I mention Leitkultur and Lebensraum at all? Certainly not.

Regards

Marc

Hello *. Good Morning.

Marc, look: I understand your position. In fact, from your perspective, you have more than a point on your side. But the whole thing of yesterday was based in the assumption that this is a forum for positive exchange of experiences.

Don't get me wrong, for "positive" I don't mean "hey, tell us what we want to hear, and keep the blue for yourself". No. In fact, there is much to be extracted from constructive critic. It is true, that many of us -GCs- came here with the not-so-accurate-idea that Germany as a nation had some responsiblities on dealing with the GC situation. In that sense, it is very useful to have people pointing out the delta between reality and illusions. Insider germans, you may call it, who really know their way around in this baroque set of rules, institutions and laws.

My whole point was concerning the style. Look: the best thing that has happened to this forum, talking about its content, is the arrival of Jens as a contributor. He is everynow and then making some "wake up" calls to naive GCs who believe that working and getting benefits from this great German system is always "ganz einfach". Which is not, of course, and there you have Jens, aiming at the problems from inside, but with full respect. Take a look at the FAQs, and how they are written.

Marc, perhaps you don't mean to, but you sound aggressive, if Detlef allows me, you sound pissed off. Correct me if I am wrong. What I can say is that while your points may be indeed valid, many times it sounds like you are resented of the way GCs were brought into Germany, and that you transfer your resentment against the GC regulation to the GCs individuals.

And there is where I think you are not fair. You may have or not a point on saying "why on earth this GC regulation passed, when there were so many people with no jobs", and we can discuss over this for years, but this is not the point. The point is that the GC regulation IS here, that we CAME here, and that is pretty much it. We are here, for as long this program lasts, whatever this may mean.

Again, correct me if I am wrong. I think you may have all your reasons for not liking the way GC regulation was implemented. But alas, in politics many things are sold on quirky bases. We live in a time in which even wars are sold on fake bases, and on the other side, anti-war attitudes are used in a big deal for retaining power.

What I think is unfair, Marc, is to mix up the (at least arguable) unaccuracy of the GC regulation with the actual GC presence here. I think is unfair to come over a guy like Dejan in the way you did, just because you are against the "rule" (or more precisely, the way the rule was implemented) that allowed Dejan and many others to be here, work, and try to give the best out of each other.

And no, there was no explicit mention of "lebensraum" or whatever in your posts.

Have a nice day,

Diego aka Sudaca.

Hi Diego,

Thanks for you support!

Regards

D.

Dear Sudaca,

maybe there is a tone of aggression in one or another of my posts - so what? Many messages in this forum are rather aggressive. In another thread two users just got into a verbal fight over not revealing the city where one of the two currently lives - come on! Elsewhere someone declared himself as part of an 'elite' (I wonder why - presumably because he has an IT related degree?) and complained how other countries treat their 'elite' immigrants better than Germany.

In this thread dejand goes on about some donut salesman - I didn't really get his point but I presume he secretly wishes that I end up selling donuts because I advised him re. the very simple fact of life that employee-employer relationships are not "between equals"? I don't get it...

Now you speak up to tell me I'm aggressive. Hmm... I guess part of the truth is I don't have a vested interest in selling goods, services or even donuts to GC holders and I'm rather direct and open with my opinion and the way I express it.

You also asked about my "message" - here it is: Focus on your own personal skills, language skills and technical skills rather than arguing about legislation and authorities in Germany, Europe or anywhere else in the world. Don't consider yourself as part of an "elite" which is owed a living by society just because your parents sent you to university. If you feel opportunities are better elsewhere in the world, move there, broaden your horizon and don't look back in anger because of some (percieved) lack of chances or fairness here. Try to accept the fact that life is not fair and people have in fact different chances depending on their ability, looks, wealth, gender and nationality.

Cheers

Marc

I cant get access to one of the messages in the old forum in which someone nicknamed "Marc" asked for help regarding employment or Green card but no one bothered to reply. Since then, the nick is being used to portray some one who is German with biased views regarding Green card.

I am accessing this site after several months so it make take some time for me to loacte that particular message. But even if these are two different individuals, I doubt if one of them is German just by reading the comments..

´Morgen Marc

Nice to (don´t) meet you.

Long time no messages from me, long time no responses from me to you. Shade! I was trying to improve my skills and working hard, the same thing I do since 16 years.

Let´s point a couple of things.

I have to recognize you are right in some aspects of your message. Fighting between us and treating us as an elite doesn´t (and in fact didn´t) help us.

The reason you use to be agressive is funny.
"maybe there is a tone of aggression in one or another of my posts - so what? Many messages in this forum are rather aggressive".
Nice example and very useful. OK, in Irak there is a war, let´s fight also between us!! COME ON!!

In my country there is a proverb: "who shouts, doesn´t have the truth" and you are shouting us man.

Maybe you doesn´t share the criteria of others (sell donuts) but yo cannot make fun of them.

I don´t feel as a member of an elite. I´m just a professional with a lot of experience and background. These two things take me out from my country today to Germany, but before to another countries. I could choose between Germany and other countries.
Could you did that?

Also you don´t know my reasons (and you won´t) but I am here and the other 14000 GC too. Maybe you feel a little bit superior, considering "you are not interested in selling donuts", but if your children have hungry you´ll have to do that or if you have two neurons, if you can earn a lot of money with it why not?

And also, please, be a man. If you want to accuse "anybody" to try making bussines with us GC, please tell us loud and clear and also consider we are not as silly as we look.

So, as you just told to everybody, the choices are open, but for you too. You can also emmigrate. As you can read in my older posts, if you feel SO superior, you can postulate your resume in Bangalore just to discover you can only find a data entry position waiting for you.

And sometimes, life is fair.

Regards

YO

YO,

I'm afraid I would probably be overqualified for a data entry position in Bangalore. If I moved to India (which I'm not planning to do) I would rather start a business and offer translation services to the local SW industry. Besides, considering the cost of living in India, I would not need to work at all.

However I think you are right in what you're saying: If I would apply for any IT specialist job in Bangalore I would probably not be considered, because local applicants are preferred. To be honest I would not like to work in a cubicle farm either.

Getting back to your question - Yes, I did live and work abroad and eventually I moved back to Germany.

Marc

Dear Marc,

You are right. There are many aggressive posts here, and we had a "golden age" of aggressions some months ago. But there are many shades of gray (or of red) in this aggression things, and let me point it out here.

I really admire the wit and guts of the german people. Only germans could have rebuilt this wonderful country in such a short time. Yes, Germany received lots of foreign aid, but this was put to practice on the most powerful way possible, and now -even with recession- Germay is still the third world economy and doubtless the main engine of Europe. But, alas, and as it happens everywhere, there are things that are not natural within Germany. With all my respect, I think germans in general -of course, there are wonderful exceptions- are not specially skilled on understanding the difference between passion and premeditation, between irony and insult, between cinism and nihilism.

Even lots of Germans acknowledge the lack of sense of humor in the people around here. You cannot make jokes based on double-sense, because you will be in serious risk of misunderstandings. Marc, from where I come, the relation with colleagues is filled with little ironies, little jokes, little "friendly" insults, filled with sexual allusion and sport comment overload. Man, you'd better lock up for a couple of days if your footbal team lost in the weekend. Even "forbidden" subjects are object of no offense, and the sense of "politically correct" is difuse. Look, my best friends back in home are from Jew and African origins, and we even may jokes about that... THEY make the jokes, caricatures of their own past, and nobody gets offended.

In any case, double-sense is an almost unknown concept here. Nuances on feelings are also rare: you are in or out, up or down, sad or happy, but the big spectrum of emotions are not clearly expressed. An example: the other day a german colleague came with his brand new BMW M3, and took me for a short ride on the lunch break. I loved the car, and I was happy for him, because I knew what this car meant for him. So I essayed a common expression down in my country: I told him, "man, I feel a healthy envy at you" (in spanish that would be "sana envidia"). I tried to say "wow, I feel envious [yes, that is a potentially bad feeling] but in a good way". Really, I had to spend two hours trying to explain exactly what I meant. I am not sure he got it at all. And we are really good friends.

Here, then, I come back to your "aggression" case. The aggressivity of some of the posts here, are the result of sheer passion. Look, having worked for some time with colleagues from India and Pakistan, yes, I have noticed that this people "burn" more easily than, say, germans. I even made jokes about that some time before here in this forum. I have full mediterranean blood in my veins, and man, do I burn easily! But also, I have also seen that as fast as this people -and myself- burn, they come down. See? That is the product of passion. I remember the great GnR here in this forum, exploding and calling the people "a basket full of crabs" (looks like that is an expression common in some parts of India, of sorts), and half an hour later he was again the cheerful bloke that we all know.

Please, excuse me now for the generalizations that will come from now on. Please keep in mind, that I fully respect and love the german people. But beware when a german gets aggressive. Marc, with all my respect, I think your anger is carefully pre-meditated. And yes, I DO make a difference between passion-aggresivity, and pre-meditated aggressivity. This, which is even contemplated when judging crimes, is what really disgusts me.

You may say "aggression is aggression", and true, in our countries we keep on patching wounds product of our quick temper. But for me, it makes the whole difference an aggression product of cold calculation from an aggression product of the heat of the moment. Marc, whenever you write, a full, systematic, exhaustive rage lies beneath. A rage feeded with introspection. Not just an explosion, but a full, well-planned campaign.

I am tempted to quote other examples, but I fear getting into a too painful ground, into wounds that still bleed. And as usual, this post is already too long. Marc, I still think you have your points in many things you say. But honestly, I think your aggressions are not product of isolated explosions, but rather the product of breeded rage. When you spat "cubicle farm", "I am overqualified", etc., Marc, it is not a fruit of passion. It's a fruit of hatred.

And for me, that makes ALL the difference.

Have a nice day,

Diego aka. Sudaca

PS: again, I will not compare qualifications, because I do NOT feel superior in any way. On the other hand, I do not feel inferior. I know what I am worth for, and where I am not worth a cent (I suck skiing, for example, but even 20 kgs. overweight I could teach you a thing or two in the football pitch :-)) . I suscribe the words of YO 100%... but Marc, sorry, it is impossible not to laugh when you say "I am overqualified". And then we are the ones talking about elites... man, give me a break.

PSS: You say "Try to accept the fact that life is not fair and people have in fact different chances depending on their ability, looks, wealth, gender and nationality". Exactly that is what I would ask you, Marc. Try to accept it. Most of us come from the "third world", and we grew up seeing unfairness as a rule, not an exception. You don't know what unfairness is, Marc, believe me. Stop paying subventions to the farms, stop protecting the Pharma industry sharks that allow millions die of AIDS to protect their licenses, stop selling neoliberalism outside and protectionism inside, and THEN, only then, we can talk.

Hi,

I think there is always an argument as to what or what not? and I 2 get invloved in such stuff but arguing with Marc is merely waste of time. So ignore this guy ;)

Marc:
just have a look at my post you will see how well your country is doing and how well India is doing. India increased 4 fold from past 2 years in its GDP and Germany is stagnant and slightly below its mark and this proves there are people like you around Germany.
<a href=http://www.trust7.com/forums/integration/general_information_2003_gdps>2003 GDP</a>
It is a shame to see such a German guy in this forum, who makes imperialist talks.

After exactly 15 years, India will have 50% of their population between the age 15 and 59, which will improve work force and assets said by Goldman,Sachs & Co. And (GS ) thinks India will be able to sustain 7.5% annual growth after 2005. Do you know about Germany's population trend? keep watching it sucks. Even USA and China's growth will shrink soon so ever and never criticize a country of such form be in your limits work hard for your country and respect other countries 2 as I do. There are lot of areas I could praise Germany but you are quite opposite always atacking with stupid stories against India. Ok I am cool now!!

good luck!
Jithendra

well somethings dont change do they?`;))
marky,lets do a scope and take you public, i guess we GCs can make hellota money outta your IPO?i know the Goldman chaps, they gonna help in this ))
Well friends, as mentioned quite a number of times before, lets focus on core issues and let this gentleman sing all alone ;)
schönes wochenende noch
GnR

Hello guys,

I am new to this forum, we I find a lot of wealthy information and also this unwanted mudslinging amongst each others. Well every country has it own histroy , growth and development. Well lets not get sidelined on issues like this ,as it is not going to lead us anywhere.

NR

Hi,

You have understood so fast all the mess here. Hopefully you will contribute wealthy infomation & suggestions here after. And I liked your double role information on common grounds sometimes it is useful. That is how peace attains! isn't so?

ok have a nice weekend!
Nitin

Have a nice weekend Trust7Bies!°!

Hi Sudaca,

I would like to kindly ask you to have a look at the actual flow of conversation and then re-evaluate your judgment on the issue of "aggression".

YO bragged about his ability choose the country where he can find work and at the same time questioned my skills and ability to do the same. Further he suggested, in India I wouldn't be able to find skilled work at all, but a data entry job might be appropriate. For me this sounds like a rather straight insult and I don't see anything remotely funny in this. Maybe it is common to make "jokes" like this in other cultures? Please explain - I'm happy to broaden my horizon.

If I had been in an agressive mood, I could have attacked YO on a personal level in a rather lenghly posting, but instead I made a fairly short, sharp and witty reply, without even referring back to his skills, abilities or attitude.

Now you picked up two phrases out of my response to YO, "cubicle farm" and "overqualified". As you seem to be a very well educated person and as you show perfect written english (probably much better than the average citizen of the UK or US) I can hardly imagine this but could it be possible that you're not fully aware what the term "overqualified" means in the context of employment? "Overqualified" does not necessarily refer to an employee who doesnt want to take a job because he/she is picky. Instead it often refers to a situation where the employer does not offer a job to the overqualified candidate. So in fact I even tried to add an element of humor to my posting, by admitting that I would not even be able to get the "data entry" job, which YO considered appropriate to me.

The fact that even YOU, Sudaca, with your superior feeling for subtle details of language, nuances and shades of grey missed this point just proofs, how prone to misinterpretation subtle irony is in an Internet forum.

Now about the "cubicle farm" - I have to admit I've never actually seen an Indian software developer's office personally with my own eyes. But even the most unbiased articles about outsourcing often make references to the working conditions in Bangalore. I've seen pictures in the context of articles about outsourcing with two (!) developers crammed into one (!) standard cubicle back to back with tiny desks in the corners. Having said that, developers often do not have the nicest office environments here in Europe either. I just thought the terms "cubicle" and "cubicle farm" is rather common to describe bad working conditions - dunno which emotions it triggered with you really and why you picked up this point; do you have some kind of cubicle trauma? BTW: do you know the Dilbert cartoons?

Finally I'd like to make a point about the "aggression issue". Frankly I do not think my postings are agressive, but they are rather sharp, direct and straight to the point. I'm open and frank about my thoughts and feelings and I'm sorry to see the white collar workers (no matter of which origin) in Europe suffering from the decisions driven by an industry lobby considering people as a disposable cost factor and by left-wing pro multi-cultural ideology European governments which today are only supported by a small minority of the people who once elected them.

Now I'm getting the impression you desperately try to push me into some "disgruntled agressive looser your soccer team lost last weekend" corner, with all this silly discussion about "good aggression" and "bad aggression". Maybe you're a victim to black and white thinking yourself and so far you have only met people who either pursued some "happy multi-kulti" ideology or shouted "Auslaender raus" with no shades of grey inbetween.

Maybe the truth out there is a little harsh to accept: It's easy to act like a big happy family but by the end of the day everyone just fights for their own interests, survival, happyness and wealth...

@Jithendra

"India will be able to sustain 7.5% annual growth [...] Germany's population trend ... it sucks. Even USA and China's growth will shrink soon [...] respect other countries 2 as I do."

Do you realize how you contradict yourself? Is this some kind of weird sense of humour which I don't get?

@GnR

Sounds great - how much do you want to invest? ;-)

@ravisivapriya

Well said!


Cheers

Marc

Do you realize how you contradict yourself? Is this some kind of weird sense of humour which I don't get?

these are the projections predicted by analysts so if u want to take it do so otherwise ignore them. And moreover the 2003 GDP's presented by CIA factbook is obsolutely right & have any arguments as them. So tell me the reason why do u feel weird?

Mr.Detlef,
Its your time to enter the pitch...
ppl are unnecessarily going aggressive

Peace frens!!

Hi Pramod,

I agree with you, that we should finish this discussion now. But I will not moderate or close this topic. At least, nobody has been rude or has written some racist stuff, so I do not censor the whole thing.

Have you ever listen to a discussion in our 'Bundestag'? How our politicians discuss and how they call their competitors? This is much worth.

At least I think some of the arguments, especially by Sudaca, are very interesting.

If anybody is interested in my point of view, here it comes. Marc is one of the Germans who are old, not old in age, but old in thinking. The future is global, with good and bad aspects, and for me it doesn't matter if someone is a German or an Armenian, or from Surinam or Australia. I like him or her, or I dislike him or her, because of their behaviour, (in German: wegen Ihrer Art, ihrer Intelligenz, ob sie symphatisch sind oder nicht, lustig oder ernst, gut oder böse).

I am happy about the fact that people like you want to live in Germany, not only because of your professional abilities, but because it is good for my country to get some fresh blood :-)

When I watch the news in the TV, the endless struggle between the politians, and some of them are really foolish, I wonder, that there are still some people who want to live here. I myself, would like to escape! But seriously, I am a patriot, therfore I will stay and try my best to do something positive for the image of Germany.

Back to Marc, as I said, he is old fashioned, because he wants to export our goods to the rest of the world, but he wants to protect the jobs for Germans. Ignoring the fact, that there are not enough highly qualified Germans available. Ignoring the fact, that German companies are leaving the country, if the German employees are to expensive. They have to do so, to survive in the global competition.

But this is just my point of view. I accept other opinions and I think even Marc does this. And he has the right to explain his statements as well.

At least... anybody has the possibilty to do not! read all this.

I am afraid that's not what you wanted to read from me, pramod?

A nice weekend to all of you
Detlef

@nreddy

"Do you know about Germany's population trend? keep watching it sucks. [...] and respect other countries 2 as I do. "

In the last sentence of the quote you claim to respect other countries. The first two sentences express great dis-respect especially in the context of your original message. Do you get my point?

Look - I really don't want to get into some kind of stupid nationalist discussion of which country is "greater", "better" or "cooler" but _your_ whole idea of comparing India and Germany (or any other developed western country) on the grounds of econimic data is just ridiculous, because these countries are at completely different stages of economic development.

My personal view on this is: if there is massive growth in India - hey that's great because my shares in Indian companies will grow in value. Amazing! Maybe one day, everyone in India will have access to education and be able to learn reading and writing. Great! Maybe eventually poverty will go down to European levels and people will not die from under-nutrition any longer. Even better!


@Detlef

An IT-Specialist in Germany earns a slightly higher net income compared to someone in France, slightly less than in the UK and less than half of an Engineer in the US.

Are German employees really overly expensive? Does importing cheaper workers solve the problem? Probably not, because the cheaper workers will soon have to pay even higher tax and social insurance contribution to feed the unemployed 'expensive' worker which they replaced. Already, tax and national social insurance accounts for 60% of the direct costs for an engineer on a 50k Euro gross salary in Germany.

Employers are getting dozends and hundreds of applications when placing a job-advert. Is there really lack of highly qualified Germans? Even unemployed Greencard migrants are out of work for many months, as you can read on this website. What does "highly qualified" mean anyway? A university degree? More than 5 years of work experience? specialist skills in exotic nieche areas such as ASIC design, SAP Modules FI/CO or realtime financial trading systems?

Really you are advocating very old fashioned Mancherster Capitalism by promoting the idea of migration of skilled labour from underdeveloped countries to the leading western industry nations. Look at the Greencard in reality: Invited to Germany in 2000 to replace the 'expensive' 50 year old local, unemployed in 2001 because there are no more jos, sent back home in 2002. A really sad state of affairs. And who is to blame? People who question migration? The government? Or maybe the industry which does not employ people any longer? Even the blue collar worker migration from south Europe of the 60's was a success in comparison. At least, their jobs lasted for a decade or so. At least their children now find work at McDonalds or live comfortably on state benefits.

Happy globalisation!

Marc

Hi Marc,

it is not the point if we like globalization or not and it is not the point if this is more good or more bad, it is just that we have to realize, it is here.

I did not mean German employees are to expensive, I meant the 'Lohnnebenkosten' are to high.

The GCs are not cheaper than Germans, they fill the places, where German employers could not find Germans, because there are not enough qualified Germans! Why should a German employer pay a lot of extra money for relocation, if he could get a German for the same position?

Einen schönen Abend noch
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

"...where German employers could not find Germans, because there are not enough qualified Germans..."

well - the employment market doesn't work black&white like this.

Part of the truth is, in the late 90's and especially around 1999/2000 the market value for available IT specialists throughout Europe went up significantly. When employers say they did not find anyone and there was nobody qualified enough, what they really mean is they did not want to pay the top market rates demanded by really good people and they were not prepared to offer average market rates to mediocre candidates either.

Detlef - of course you can believe different stories, but I know this from my own 1st hand experience, both from an employee's perspective and from the employer's point of view.

Cheers

Marc

As for being aggressive, there were a couple of posts glorifying a particular country just because they won a hockey match against the other. I guess the content written there was more aggressive than many of Marc´s mails

Cheers..

Billy

I am going to enter the discussion, because I think there are some misunderstandings here that are causing very big damage to all of us here.

First, this forum has very big popularity among all people that live and work here in Germany-“ausländer” - popularly called :-)

Marc, as I already noticed, is a German. I though that he was, and at the end it came out loud here in forum. I am happy that I made a distance from the very start and that I really made an excellent comments to his “open”, “direct” and “honest” observations. In all his thoughts that he wrote, we can read that he is definitely right oriented and that he is subconsciously very much “traditional” German fellow. He has made a couple of very interesting remarks and I am going to try to get attention from all of you to some of this remarks:

<Marc-OS>
“One point you're missing is, when the GC scheme was started this happened on the grounds of the industry calling for IT specialists who had specific skills which were said to be in short demand. At no time, there was an agreement across political parties, interest groups and German society, that immigration in general was wanted and needed. Right from the start, the GC scheme was just a way to supply staff to (mostly) dot-com companies.”
</Marc-OS>

I didn’t miss that point. I know that it will never be an agreement between the German political parties towards immigration to Germany. On the other hands I must remind you that there was a time when you Germans had an agreement-consensus about how to treat foreigners and others… Do not push me to quote “Mein Kampf”!!!

<Marc-OS>
“You're from an Eastern European country - right? Please think about the day to day standard of living in your home country, before demanding more stability and security elsewhere.”
</Marc-OS>

Yes I am. My mother is English. My father is not. I am speaking seven languages fluently, including German (maybe not so fluent, but I am on the way).

I must tell you something about eastern European countries. I didn’t want to, but now, when I see what do you think about them I am going to say it loud. I must admit, that one live better there then the most Germans and others live here. If you want to find out, please visit some of those countries and try to get familiar with customs and people. Nobody is going to harass you because you are from some other country. You will be treated with dignity and respect and with a lot of hospitality. Not because you are German (in that case you should beware and you know why…) but because you are a human being. You should ask yourself why are Germans so scared from other people coming to their country to live and work?

<Marc-OS>
“Focus on your own personal skills, language skills and technical skills rather than arguing about legislation and authorities in Germany, Europe or anywhere else in the world. Don't consider yourself as part of an "elite" which is owed a living by society just because your parents sent you to university. If you feel opportunities are better elsewhere in the world, move there, broaden your horizon and don't look back in anger because of some (perceived) lack of chances or fairness here. Try to accept the fact that life is not fair and people have in fact different chances depending on their ability, looks, wealth, gender and nationality.”
</Marc-OS>

You are arrogant! We are not a little kids to be taught by you or anyone else what to do! We have finished our education, which, by the way, is much better than education here, and much harder to finish! The knowledge of the university engineers here in some area (like mathematics for example) is so weak, that it can not compete with the knowledge of some secondary school scholar in my country.

<Marc-OS>
“Maybe one day, everyone in India will have access to education and be able to learn reading and writing. Great! Maybe eventually poverty will go down to European levels and people will not die from under-nutrition any longer. Even better!”
</Marc-OS>

Poverty of European countries is really week. In all senses. Money alone brings no happiness. Trust me on my word!

<Marc-OS>
“Does importing cheaper workers solve the problem? Probably not, because the cheaper workers will soon have to pay even higher tax and social insurance contribution to feed the unemployed 'expensive' worker which they replaced. Already, tax and national social insurance accounts for 60% of the direct costs for an engineer on a 50k Euro gross salary in Germany”
</Marc-OS>

Who said that the Green Cards are cheaper? Who said that the GC are replacing Germans? And if it is so, what would you like? Concentration camps again, where the people are going to eat bread and drink water and work for free? Is that what you want? The Germany took the most educated people out of some countries for free. Some of them are so good in their work, so good that they create another working places in your economy. What do you want more? Would you be better? Why don’t you go somewhere and test your skills in such a way if you are so self confident?

<Marc-OS>
“Is there really lack of highly qualified Germans? Even unemployed Green card migrants are out of work for many months, as you can read on this website. What does "highly qualified" mean anyway? A university degree? More than 5 years of work experience? specialist skills in exotic nieche areas such as ASIC design, SAP Modules FI/CO or realtime financial trading systems?”
</Marc-OS>

Yes there is. I am laughing out loud when I see what skill set is going out of universities here in Germany. I am laughing out loud when I see how much effort is invested in projects that can be completed in a matter of weeks. I am laughing out loud when I see what kind of knowledge “experts” from a German companies have!!!

The GC people are getting unemployed only because they are foreigners. When the company wants to save some money, they are firing the foreigners first. Please, do not tell me that I am not right! I see that every day. I see that hatred almost everywhere I go here in Germany.

You Marc, your are just one more to what we, foreign intellectuals, live every day here. I am getting used to that and I am trying to protect me and my family from that.

<Marc-OS>
“Look at the Green card in reality: Invited to Germany in 2000 to replace the 'expensive' 50 year old local, unemployed in 2001 because there are no more jos, sent back home in 2002. A really sad state of affairs. And who is to blame? People who question migration? The government? Or maybe the industry which does not employ people any longer? Even the blue collar worker migration from south Europe of the 60's was a success in comparison. At least, their jobs lasted for a decade or so. At least their children now find work at McDonalds or live comfortably on state benefits.”
</Marc-OS>

You are pathetic!

<Marc-OS>
Detlef - of course you can believe different stories, but I know this from my own 1st hand experience, both from an employee's perspective and from the employer's point of view.
</Marc-OS>

And now you are showing your donuts!

Generally I agree to my friend Diego! Marc, you express the hatred towards aliens that is well know to us from an old history books. I think you missed the lessons of the Berlin Wall and the lessons from a general history (specially the one from “Mein Kampf”) and because of that you are now giving yourself a freedom to discuss this GC story with us. You are not competent.

You are just one of some, not all-but the majority, that do not admit the fact that the foreigners built this country. This country was helped to be rebuild from foreigners financially and in every other way. So, alone from the fact that you are trying to give us a lesson here, I am giving you one. Please do not teach us the world order and globalization, because this fact alone is something you Germans profit from. But, beware, maybe the time is coming when the concept that worked here after 1945 is not to be modern anymore. Maybe the countries of the third world are not going to allow you such a growth as you are expecting?

Please do not give us a lesson from capitalism and human resource politics here, because we know that the most of an arguments that you are bringing in front of our nose here, are just deviated ideas that you got in your childhood!

Do not talk with us about our reality, please, because people like you, with such ideas are very much influencing the fact that we can’t be left alone here to live and work as every human being. We are marked like Jews during the second world war, with the green card, and now we have to wait for some time for that green card to expire in order to stay here and to be left alone, or to go home and start from the beginning! That has nothing to do with the company policies and some financial company politics. It is the way you - Germans and your government treat the good quality intellectuals that came here to work for the better of their families, for the better of your society, and for the better of all of us.

If I were you, I would be deeply ashamed of what is happening and happens around this whole GC project.

Have a nice dreams buddy.

Dejan.

selected quotes from Dejan's posting...

..."Mein Kampf”!!!...

...one live better there [in Eastern Europe] then the most Germans and others live here. ...

...We [from Eastern Europe] have finished our education, which, by the way, is much better than education here [in Germany]...

...The knowledge of the university engineers here [in Germany] in some area ... is so weak, that it can not compete with the knowledge of some secondary school scholar in my country...

...Concentration camps again...

...I am laughing out loud when I see what skill set is going out of universities here in Germany. ...

...GC people are getting unemployed only because they are foreigners...

...I see that hatred almost everywhere I go here in Germany...

....Marc, you express the hatred towards aliens that is well know to us from an old history books. I think you missed the lessons of the Berlin Wall and the lessons from a general history (specially the one from “Mein Kampf”) ...

...So, alone from the fact that you are trying to give us a lesson here, I am giving you one. ...

...We are marked like Jews during the second world war, with the green card...

...If I were you, I would be deeply ashamed of what is happening and happens around this whole GC project....


Dejan,

maybe (hopefully) you posted this late at night when slightly drunk and tired and when you come back sober and awake, you'll realize how embarassing all these historic references and all this my country vs. your country and me versus you thinking is.

I don't want to comment on each indivudidual insult, not because I wouldn't know the appropriate facts to put forward to you to counter your statements, but because I feel this would only lead to even more aggressive accusations and even more foolish historic references on your side.

I'd like to make one general comment though. Since 2nd World War, Germany joined up with many of it's former enemies in the EU, leading up to a common currency, open boarders and the right for people to move, work and settle everywhere they want within the EU. As the latest developments show, the opportunity to join this community is open to countries from Eastern Europe as well and I dare to predict that in a couple of years more eastern countries will follow the current round of joiners.

Dejan - you're welcome to Germany based on the assumption that you are providing specialist IT knowledge and rare skills. You have the option on permanent residency providing that you're employer considers you so valueable within their organisation, that they are willing to present their case to the authorities. Five years are a long time to build up these skills, to show you're exceptionally valuable to your employer and to proceed with your integration into society.

Comes 2005, those who believe Germany owes them a living because they believe they are generally smarter than German engineers, because they think they went to a better university and because Germany owes something to foreign migrants as a kind of compensation for historic war crimes, are wrong. Those people will find it difficult to either stay in Germany or to find qualified work even if they are allowed to stay.

Regards

Narc

Dear Marc,

I expected your answer to be so. It is the only way you could possibly answer.

So, with your answers, you simply proved the most of the things you stated here. I will just say one thing to you:

"The seed you breed is the seed you eat."

Good bye.

D.

Hi Dejand,

I do not know what you are talking about? I just remember that you asked Joddy for his name and place and when he answered you, you resisted to tell him more about yourself.

Now, in your second last message, you used a lot of words, which are pointing on the dark side of German history. Okay, no problem, but where is the relation to our discussion?

Mostly I do not agree with Marc, I think in many points, but he never said anything rude or any racist stuff. So there is no reason to come out with this.

Marc's last answer is absolut okay. All the members of this forum, who are here for a longer time, know, that I am on their side, otherwise we would not have this forum, and I did not censure even harsh criticism about Germany. On the other hand you have to accept opposite opinions from Germans, too.

And if you do not have the right arguments, you always have the chance to say nothing.

That's always better, than creating any relation between Germany today and Germany 60 years ago.

By
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

sincerely, I do not see the reason for you Germans to jump up now and try to defend the "poor Marc".

He and his deviated ideas reflect the part of the public opinion that exists here. His threats and his insults are far more dangerous than anyone of us can even think they are.

So Detlef, please, read my answers in detail and try to understand them without taking them out of context, please.

Good bye.

D.

Dejand,

Marc does not need my help. And I showed very often, that we are different. That's not the point, but here some of your word, and I raed your whole message!

----------- start ------------
We are marked like Jews during the second world war, with the green card, and now we have to wait for some time for that green card to expire in order to stay here and to be left alone, or to go home and start from the beginning! That has nothing to do with the company policies and some financial company politics. It is the way you - Germans and your government treat the good quality intellectuals that came here to work for the better of their families, for the better of your society, and for the better of all of us.
-------- end -------

If you think the GC situation is comparable with the situation of the Jews in the 'Third Reich' , I do not like to change any more message with you. It is useless!

:-)

Your answer reflect the tolerance that you have to other opinnions.

Thscuss.

D.

Dejan - now two people pointed out to you how highly inappropriate your style of discussion is. I don't really see the point you're trying to make here with all this talk about German history and I guess nobody else gets your message.

Everyone here is entitled to have their own opinion. Opinions are for example "All Greencard holders and future applicants should get permanent residence immediately", "BMW builds the best and greatest cars, especially the M3." or "I have seen bad code written by German / Chinese / Indian / Croatian /... SW engineers and therefore I don't like the quality of their work in general.".

These are all valid opinions, even though not everyone agrees with some or all of them. However stating that "GC holders are marked like Jews in WW II" is not an opinion which opens any scope for discussion. It's a factual statement which is so obviously far away from the truth that only the strongest objections are appropriate.

This is not about tolerance, it's predominantly about a decent style of discussion and respect towards the victims of historic crimes against humanity.

Marc

Well I was reading this conversation and I think that this is going nowhere.

I come from Eastern Europe (Serbia) and to be honest I hope that I can stay here longer then 5 years but when I applied for "Green card" I was aware that there is limit of 5 years and nobody forced me to come here if I do not want to accept that fact.

I am little tired of blaming German government because they did not speak (yet) about "Green card" people. If they change something in future cool for us but if they do not that was known from beginning.

Off course, I believe that we have to fight for that possibility to stay over 5 years and not to waste our time in writting messages which will lead nowhere.

I know that if I can not stay here longer I will go back to my country or I will go somewhere where I can have life without some limitations but that will be also my decission like it was to come here.

Concerning job, I changed two jobs, my friend changed 3 jobs so it is not impossible to find new job. It is not easy but not impossible.

Few times I was in situation that some official persons were rude to me but I did not allow that and I replied sharply and they change their attitude. Point is to respect yourself and then others will respect you also and not to come in official offices looking down without guts to fight for you rights.

Also think how our officials will treat foreginers ? I have friends who are from Greece and they study in Belgrade and I know that it is not easy for them to work with our officials (often this is not easy even for us ;) ). I agree with Dejan who comes from same or similar country like me that in out part of world it is much warmer then here but we can not change the worl, right ?

Bye

Hello All,

I don't know why I have developed this tendency to throw petrol on the fire, but I have been left with some questions:

If a GC works for a german company working on a product that is only sold abroad, Is he earning the money "here" or "there"?

If a company employs a "cheap" GC to make a product, that is also made in india with even "cheaper" programmers, is he stealing someone's position?

Would a a programmer really prefer to be unemployed rather than earn less?

Of course, this are all very ambiguous questions that vary a lot when it comes to the details, but i hope the answers will provide me some insight.

cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,

I don't know where you aiming at with these questions but I've got the feeling that the terms 'eaning' and 'stealing' are somehow used in a weird context here.

No qualified IT specialist would prefer to be unemployed over accepting work paid at a lower rate. Everyone would know extended times out of work are a career-killer damaging future prospects in the employment market.

Marc

Hi
This is the sick behaviour of the industrialized west countries.
They are very happy when they sell their products to third world without(or low) customs regulations. (which effects severely the job-market and industry of that third world country)
But they are really hesitant when it comes to accepting workers from that third world countries.
Hey guys, come on where is the main theory of "Free Market Economy" the free movement of goods and LABOUR ?
This is what happened to my country as an EU member candidate. We were forced to remove any customs regulations against EU Member states around 10 years ago.. far before we even became a candidate(part of the EU-integration period as they told us.. we stupids beleived that or forced to beleive that). EU is now enjoying the trade with my country(which is a very big market) but the citizens of this country still need visa even for a 1 week visit to an EU country.. ? (we never know when we will even become a member.. some people say never.. some say 2020.. )
so.. please tell me, if this is not an exploiting that country ? then what is it ?
in short, Globilization is the new name that hungry west capitalism found for "colonilization" and they are not playing this "Globilization" game fair at all because their opponents are relatively weak in power.
Regards

Lacrima

Lacrima,

I presume the trade agreements between the EU and the nameless country you mentioned are mutual? Usually the cost for producing goods is lower in the underdeveloped country while its higher in the industrialised country. Therefore it's probably beneficial for your country to have access to the EU as an export market as well?

Which country is it your talking about?

Marc

Marc,
No need to mention name.. there is only one country which fits the specific details that I gave above regarding EU relations. If you are still not able to guess it.. then I will tell you the name..
Regarding your answer.. yes it is true.. these trade agreements are mutual so you think this makes it fair ?
Let me explain...
Such third world countries usually have inmature industries although they have cheap labour. They are usually unable to produce "real value added" goods. They export raw material and import expensive "value added" goods. They do not have the innovation in their industry and they usually imitate the already-there industry.
Ok.. I accept this situation is not the fault of industrialized countries(oh.. maybe it is, if we can go back enough in the history.. times of colonization) but this is doesnt stop them to take advantage of the fact by forcing them to some trade agreements in the name of globalization.
We all know how G-7 behaves when third world asked them to remove the governmental support (where is market economy ?)
to their Farmers (in the area of Agriculture) and to open their Agriculture Market to third world ? the answer was simple and clear : "No"
Why third world can not do the same for G-7's "value added products" is the big unfairness that resides in this whole thing..
So you can name it G-7 -> third world, EU -> my country
it is all the same story.. that is also why I dont want to mention name.. name of the country is irrelevant in the context.
Regards
Lacrima

I never understood the full reasoning behind the agriculture subsidies paid out by the EU. When following public discussion on this topic in Germany you'll probably find that peope in general are not sympathetic towards the payment of agriculture subsidies. I think the French are the strongest promoters within the EU.

The EU has little interest in "tricking" any country into releasing trade barrier and then delaying their entry into the community. With this particular country you're talking about it's said to be the unresolved human rights issues causing the EU to put the process on hold. I consider this to be a rather positive "attitude" of the EU and likewise if they integrated Turkey now, everyone would rightly point out how the EU does not value human rights and is biased towards economic and strategic-geographic interests.

Regards

Marc

if you're from Eastern europe, then what colonization? If you're from Turkey, they same question again. Other than that, if you think a trade agreement doesn't benefit you, don't sign it.
But probably it's more like a mutual "most favoured nation clause".

usually trade barriers are errected to protect an industry which produces similar products at a higher cost, but is a huge employer (like steel). agriculture is still employing quite a few ppl in the EU (mostly southern countries), so it makes sense to reasonably protect those farmers from overseas competition.
if germany sells cars to namibia, it doesn't make sense for namibia to impose tariffs on cars because there is no car industry in namibia to protect. now if namibia wants to sell potatoes to germany, it's a bad idea for germany to include potatoes in the trade agreement since it is produced locally to a certain extent. it makes sense however to exempt diamons from import tax since there is no diamond mining industry in germany and it benfits nobody having those goods taxed.

so if the third world country goes and imposes import taxes on "value added good" which it cannot and will not produce itself it's nothing more than a retaliatory measure for not having tariffs on potatoes removed. if 50% of the national export is potatoes then though luck. i'd rather pay 3 times the potatoe price if it keeps a few tens of thousend ppl employed, which, with their money, are potential buyers for the products of my work and thus keep me employed.

Read in 2012. Situation hasnt changed. Infact gotten worse!!! Very sad indeed