I searched few things for students and I found something else for all of us GCs:

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#104
§ 104 Übergangsregelungen
(2) Bei Ausländern, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis sind, ist es bei der Entscheidung über die Erteilung einer Niederlassungserlaubnis hinsichtlich der sprachlichen Kenntnisse nur erforderlich, dass sie sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen können. § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung.

SO we do have AE vor dem 1. Januar 2005 and have only to be able to comunicate in simple way.
But this other thing is much BIGGER:
see what is it:
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#9
§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis
(2) Einem Ausländer ist die Niederlassungserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn

1. er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,
2. sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist,
3. er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung geleistet hat oder Aufwendungen für einen Anspruch auf vergleichbare Leistungen einer Versicherungsoder Versorgungseinrichtung oder eines Versicherungsunternehmens nachweist; berufliche Ausfallzeiten auf Grund von Kinderbetreuung oder häuslicher Pflege werden entsprechend angerechnet,
4. er in den letzten drei Jahren nicht wegen einer vorsätzlichen Straftat zu einer Jugend- oder Freiheitsstrafe von mindestens sechs Monaten oder einer Geldstrafe von mindestens 180 Tagessätzen verurteilt worden ist,
5. ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,
6. er im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist,
7. er über ausreichende Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache verfügt,
8. er über Grundkenntnisse der Rechts- und Gesellschaftsordnung und der Lebensverhältnisse im Bundesgebiet verfügt und
9. er über ausreichenden Wohnraum für sich und seine mit ihm in häuslicher Gemeinschaft lebenden Familienangehörigen verfügt.




SO 3 and 8 are not necessary:
(§ 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung)

8. says we should know something about german system. so we do not need to know that

BUT 3 IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT:
3. er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung geleistet hat ...

SO WE DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE FULL 60 RENTEN TO GET NIEDERLASSUNSERLAUBNIS (PR)

actually everyone that got AE before 1.1.05 does not have to have 60 Renten.
BUT 5 years are still a must, and Unterhalt.

For me it is not very important but I think NoBody will be happy

I am not sure that anybody understud.
I think that 60 Renten condition is not valid for us. Actually for all who got AE before 1.1.05 it should not be important.

OR AM I WRONG?

Folks, don't mean 2 spread negative thougts but the problem after the 5 years will not be the Aufenthaltsgenehmigung as much as the Arbeitsgenehmigung:

"5.ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist,
6. er im Besitz der sonstigen für eine dauernde Ausübung seiner Erwerbstätigkeit erforderlichen Erlaubnisse ist, "

the Arbeitsamt already warned my employer that they can not prolong the Arbeitsgenehmigung after the 5th year based on the Green Card law. It would be interesting 2 find out if there is an other legal base through which we can get the Arbeitsgenehmigung.

I keep optimistic because my employer wants to fight for me staying here. But even he can't change the laws.

Keep Cool
RR

that beamter is IDIOT

6. is only for Ärzte and others who need special Certifikat.

5. is eindeutig solved mit BeschV §46 Abs (2)

He is IDIOT
He is IDIOT
He is IDIOT
He is IDIOT

maybe he is not IDIOT if he said that long time ago.
Back then it was not clear, allthough even then there were few possibilities.
But after 5.11.2004. when BeschV was accepted they have nothing to choose.
With BeschV GC is practically PR.

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschv.html#46
§ 46 Übergangsregelungen
(2) Die einer IT-Fachkraft nach § 6 Abs. 2 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für
hoch qualifizierte Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie erteilte befristete
Arbeitserlaubnis gilt als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer
Beschäftigung fort.

explanation is here
Zu § 46 - Übergangsregelungen
Zu Absatz 2:
Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis
aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch - die dauernde
Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung
zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet.

DvD,

Gr8 News!!.
Thanks for the research.

regards,
kalakkal.

" 3.
- er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung geleistet hat
- oder Aufwendungen für einen Anspruch auf vergleichbare Leistungen einer Versicherungs oder Versorgungseinrichtung oder eines Versicherungsunternehmens nachweist;
berufliche Ausfallzeiten auf Grund von Kinderbetreuung oder häuslicher Pflege werden
entsprechend angerechnet"

So man has to have given the 60 months payments voluntarily or compulsory (through employer)
OR
he should have had do the same to an insurance company or something of that sort

So the 60 in a way are always needed, as I can see.

D.

Thanks D. That's great news indeed.
RR

AufenthG
§ 104 Übergangsregelungen
(2) Bei Ausländern, die vor dem 1. Januar 2005 im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbefugnis sind
...
§ 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 findet keine Anwendung.


you speak deutsch.
if you got AE before 2005 then are § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3 und 8 not used.
menaning read §9 Abs. 2 without 3 and 8.

so 60 Renten are not needed

oder??????

You look convincing and these texts are :-) but I will try to get an answer from a lawyer, if you don't mind.

I will get back to you as soon as I got an answer on this subject.

D.

my advice to you:
try with lawyer but first try with info4alien
they are ABH beamters there and they are very strict.
if they say it is true that 60R falls out than it is true.
vice versa is not sure, so if they say it is needed than there is posibility that they could be wrong because they decide allways on the safe side if they are not sure. safe side for them is of course bad side for us.

than ask lawyer, but do not hury. Lawyers also need to learn new law. find one that has certainly learned it.

:-) I already found one who got some insight on the new one (thanks to Detlef) and I've sent her a mail with this topic and content.

But I will try infoalien too, thanks for the tip.

If it happens to be really true, I will buy you a Citizen watch in advance :-)

D.

But DvD, didn't you already asked this question in info4alien? You normally always do, don't you?

D.

I would do it but I am banned.
I asked to much!

But Lacrima is oft there and she speaks very good deutsch. Maybe she would be so nice to do it.

If it is true, I guess we should call it "the NoBody Verordnung" :-)

"If it happens to be really true, I will buy you a Citizen watch in advance"

Thanks in advance

The essence of all this discussion means that it is enough to pay some versicherung for 60 months.
so is krakenversicherung(may be to AOK) payed is
counted under this 60 months scheme.
if so many of the peoples problems are solved.
ok bye

DvD wrote:
"But Lacrima is oft there and she speaks very good deutsch. Maybe she would be so nice to do it."


"SHE" ? ahh.. DvD.. ich bitte Dich.. ok.. my nick looks like a female nick.. but did I mention somewhere in my posts that I was female ?

I even set intentionally that "blue symbol with an arrow" in my profile in info4alien forum, to avoid any misunderstanding..

anyway.. coming to the main point.. I would ask this question in info4alien.. but those guys are really not that sympathetic.. they usually ignore you, if they think the question is stupid.. on the other hand, their web-site is not reachable nowadays.. at least I can not access it all the time.. I will try to post this question, if I manage to access the web-site and have some spare time if someone manages to do it before me, he/she is very welcome..

By the way, DvD.. you can easily get a new nickname and ask your question there.. if they ban it, then you can get another one.. shouldnt be a big deal.. wouldnt you agree ?

Best Wishes

Lacrima (should I maybe say Lacrimo

I allways thought you are female.
What can I say. I am really sad now.

about new account on info4alien:
no thanks.
when I got banned they mistakely gave my e-mail publicly.
I don't want it to happend again.

As promised, back with the answer of the lawyer I contacted (just the part that is important for this case): "In my point of view (after reading the text given by DvD, n.d.R.), it is not necessary to have the knowledge of the German system and the full 60 months to get the Niederlassungserlaubniss in cases you had the Aufenthaltserlaubnis before the 01.01.2005. This helps us a lot."

Someone needs a Citizen watch down here :-) Thanks for pointing that out DvD, you really made my day.

D.

It does not have to be equiped with depthmeter.
I allready have depthmeter so skip it.
But it would be nice if it was Eco-Drive (solar).
And of course in silver and gold colors with dark screen (black or dark blue)

so what will happen with the guys with Aufentaltsbewilligung (A and Aufenthaltserlaubnis. I mean - for me, I had Aufenthaltsbewilligung for 4 years. Then I convert it to Aufenthaltserlaunis.
Now my understanding is as following:
According to § 104 (2), a foreigner with Aufenthaltserlaubnis (AE) or Aufenthaltsbefugnis (Aufenthaltsbewilligungs or ?) can apply for Niederlasungserlaubnis according to §9. So I think in §9 (2) (1) Aufenthaltserlaubnis means AE & AB. Because §104 (2) says that both AE & AB may be considered for NE. Otherwise they should not have mentioned AB here.
I would appriciate your comments!

Regards,

mk

Could somebody explain me what is such a big deal with 60 months of pension fund payments vs. 5 years of legal residence ? AFAIK this is only interested for people who were in Germany, but were unemployed and not registered as unemployed at Arbeitsamt. I did so, thus I am "missing" some 40 days in total. So it means that one has to work 1-2 months longer to get permanent residence. This is not a problem anymore due to famous paragraph 46. Or am I missing something ?

@cedomir

"Could somebody explain me what is such a big deal with 60 months of pension fund payments vs. 5 years of legal residence?", because for some people like me, at the end of my 5 years, I will have 50 months of pension paid, and as the 60 was an obligated way, it was thus a no-chance fact to get PR but this document makes it possible for such people now.

I first was unemployed for 6 months and didn't get unemployment benefits (in fact, I didn't knew I should apply for some and even if I did, I wasn't eligible) and then I was unemployed for 4 months but the AB didn't paid the unemployement benefits, thus making a total of 10 months missing.

D.

Also for some people like me(GC-Freelancers), who do not normally need to pay Pension contribution, since it is voluntary. i was thinking of paying this pension contribution every month to add up for the 60 months, now it is not needed.

:-)

regards,
kalakkal.

DvD, you give pretty much effort to overcome the limitation of GClers to get ZuwG-NE or PR or whatever. What you found out is really promising, but your claim must be proven by an official lawyer. It is a extremely important thing for GClers.

The aim to lengthen GC law till 2004 is also a kinda slow transition of ZuwG.

In the web page,
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/zuwg/0481.html,
an offical from Innenministerium states for
AufhG of ZuwG:
"Aber man kann sagen, für diejenigen, die
bereits heute eine Greencard besitzen,
ändert sich erst mal gar nichts, ..."

The guys in http://www.info4alien.de also think
that the people, the GCler, in the forums of
this website talk of mostly talk irrationally.

So, GClers must be very careful about the claim
DvD has. It seems reasonable but needs proof.

Hi klenze17, the information that you have found is few months old, and was at the time very much true. But after that, the significant change for all GCs happened at 3.11. when some additions to immigration law were passed. The DvD found only links to apropriate documents on the www server of the bundesrat. Now it is a fact that all GCs have right for the unlimited work and residence permit for the current companies. This decision was made on highest levels of the german government. As I have already said on this forum, the lowest levels of the german government, which gather for example on info4alien.de have obligation and are for that paid from tax payers, including you and me, to enforce the laws and decisions passed by higher levels. Thus one should differentiate between publicly exchanged thoughts or expectations of GCs on this forum, which are sometimes probably afar from reality, and between laws and instructions which were passed and will be in effect starting 1.1.2005. No matter how long GCs discuss on this forum, or no matter how long the administration discusses on another forum, the reality is now defined with new law and it cannot be changed by us or officials of the immigration offices. The change of the present situation can be only achieved through institutions of the of the system. It is sad if somebody has problem to accept this. If it is however not possible to stay in Germany, there are many alternative options - at least for me. I can for example go to USA, UK, etc. and get very good job with references that I have in Germany. Or I can go back to where I come from and use contacts in Germany to get projects and employ myself and other people in my homeland. There are more and more software companies in Germany which do not have any development in Germany - the development is done in eastern Europe, and here is only sales office. This kind of business will endanger german job market much more than 15,000 GCs. If some foreigner is working in German company, and gets paid, let's say 3500 euro brutto, he is the "thorn in the eye", because he is here and allegedly occupies free position for the Germans, but if some company pays 100,000 Euro monthly for its Czech subsidiary, which employs 30 people then it is ok, "far from the eyes - far from the heart". Anway, if I am a surplus here, why then I get every two weeks letters from different companies which are asking me if I have interest to work for them ?

"What you found out is really promising, but your claim must be proven by an official lawyer."

true

"Aber man kann sagen, für diejenigen, die
bereits heute eine Greencard besitzen,
ändert sich erst mal gar nichts, ..."

1. she does not mean that it stays bad situation for GC. she wants to say situation stays good because GC can get NE after 5 years and that coresponds to unbefristete in AuslG.
Beside she said that GC can ask for Visa extension same as everybody else.
not GC extension but normal Visa.
here is nice place to say how it is done with Visa extension in Germany.
Simple. If one has 1 or 2 or more year Visa and still has a job than he gets Visa extension.
It goes for garbage collectors, street cleaners and everybody.
So usually Ausländers in De think thaey are safe when they get 2 years of AufErl because it will allways prolonged if guy works.
Now let me ask you:
Do you think that GC with 5 years would stand lower chances als garbage collectors with 2???

There was problem that lots of Beamters didn't know that they can prolong GC Visum with one normal Visum.
Legally if Beamter does not prolong Visum he did not do anything wrong.
Law says that beamter can prolong Visa not that he must.
Because of that it could easilly happend that lots of GC fall as victims of Beamter's stupidity.
And what is worse it is than irepairable because Beamter has leagally free choice to prolong your Visum. Even judge can not help you then.
So if your Beamter has no clue you would irepairably suffer.
IT WOULD BE SHAME FOR DEUTSCHLAND THAT GCLERS ARE CALLED FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THEN TREATED WORSE THAN GARBAGE COLLECTORS, JUST BECASE SOME BEAMTERS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THEIR JOB.
SO NOT TO ALLOW SUCH THING,SOME SMART GERMAN PEOPLE DECIDED TO HARD CODE IT IN BESCHV:

2. she said that before BeschV and with it thing is a lot different because Beamter does not have free choise any more.
WITH BESCHV GCLERS PRACTICCALY HAVE PR IN HAND.



"The guys in http://www.info4alien.de also think
that the people, the GCler, in the forums of
this website talk of mostly talk irrationally."


You ask cat what she thinks abot mouses. What could cat possibly think about mouses?
They are on the oposite sides. You have to ask somebody who is independent like lawyer or judge.
True is that here something is false, but it is also true that something on info3alien is false.
Proof: take only one question where Beamters had different opinions. One must be false and other true.

"So, GClers must be very careful about the claim
DvD has. It seems reasonable but needs proof.
klenze17"

I said that from begining.
Your post would be better if you said only this.
After all, if I say something wrong it it is just my mistake that does not have big consequences.
And if Beamter says and does something wrong (and you allready saw that they do it a lot), than somebody has, maybe, lost his future.

Hey, GC anywhere

Why does anybody of you please ask the "hidden" Beamtern in info4alien and we stop with that thread full of different opinions and links?

I would gladly Anmelde myself in i4a but I would hate a lot that somebody who speaks same mother languaje than me correct my German in red. I´m too old for that.

Good to know from DvD who were the members of that forum. Sometimes I have read some despective commentares to this forum. Also this languaje they speak.... I don´t like it at all.

Share all the above opinions, but maybe the superior court of Germany can support us, but in our allday paperstuff, we have to deal with normal Beamtern who really decide, usually according to law, but in the limits of human tolerance.

Just an opinion

YO

The Germany is state where the rule of law applies, rather than rule of self-will. Thus I am sure that all GCs will get permanent residence status, if they wish so.

So it is true.
Big Mick says that 60 renten are really not needed for those who had AE before 1.1.05

So NoBody you are deffinitly back in the game.
This guy Mick is best expert on info4alien and even chief at one AuslBehörde.
If he says it is so, than it's for sure.
http://www.xonder.at/cgi-bin/yabbserver/foren/F_0134/YaBB.cgi?board=zuw;action=display;num=1101377842;start=0#5

Impressive Indeed.

Didn't I told you I was already looking for a Citizen watch for some1 down here? Man, I'm not back in the game, because I never quitted since last time we discussed this topic and that I questionned the lawyer.
I've already started doing better plan for my future here, and already looking for way to invest money.

Ain't that good for such a cold day in Berlin?

D.

I just hope that this Mick guy is chief in a AB in Berlin, so he will be the one I will give my application to :-)

D.

"Man, I'm not back in the game, because I never quitted since last time we discussed this topic and that I questionned the lawyer."

Sure but you know, lawyers on the same side as we and they see sometime what we want them to see.
ABH Beamters are something else. They say something good for us only if they are completely sure. Specially this guy.
If they do not know then they choose safer answer which is bad for us.
So if he says it is so than it is much better than when lawyer says so.
Oposite is not true. If he says "no" it could still be "yes", because he maybe does not know and choses safe side.

I think he is in NRW, but you can allways get your Beamter in contact with him.

Yeah, I know that lawyers' words are not to be taken as a guarantee, but since the words in these paragraphs were so clear, I think it would have been difficult for a Beamter to tell the opposite, except if he can find some § written in the back of the law in letters so small that none has seen it before.

But I'm quite in peace now, even if I have to deal with other problems with the authorities now and that I'm really willing to solve to be 100% in peace.

D.

Hi everyone,

Lets say if i have 4 years of A'laubins and 1 year of A'bewelligung, Am i qualified for NE?..I see the criteria below

§ 9 Niederlassungserlaubnis

(2) Einem Ausländer ist die Niederlassungserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn

1. er seit fünf Jahren die Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt,
>> Am i qualified or not??? This clearly says that only5 years of A'laubnis will lead to a NE. So, most of teh research assitants like me only A-bewelligung. I now have GC but earlier i was a Master Student with a Research Assistant tag with BAT gehalt( i paid all social contributions in that)
2. sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist,
3. er mindestens 60 Monate Pflichtbeiträge oder freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung geleistet hat oder Aufwendungen für einen Anspruch auf vergleichbare Leistungen einer Versicherungsoder Versorgungseinrichtung oder eines Versicherungsunternehmens nachweist; berufliche Ausfallzeiten auf Grund von Kinderbetreuung oder häuslicher Pflege werden entsprechend angerechnet,


I have a letter from a forum , which was actually sent from Bundestag and Herr.Schilly's seceratary had written that the years which we live in with A-bewelligung will also be counted for NE.. so it is little bit contraddicting with §9

Maybe, i will try to apply for the first package with Trust 7 and then let the lawyers move on

Regards
Rajesh

ah!!How come i see my photo and my signature in my last post? it is a surprise!! if anyone needs that letter regarding the question of A-bewelligung getting accounted for NE? i can send you by email!!

NoBody:
"But I'm quite in peace now"

Me too.
I just think about the watch.

rajeshspg tell me your email and I'll write you a mail so that you can send me that Bundestag mail.

btw after 1.1. there is no AufBew so it is posible that it will be treated as a AufErl.

Hi DVD,

My email ID is shankar@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de

Some how, i am your fan!!!! You get all information for us and you are always positive.. keep it up!!

Waiting for your mail

Rajesh

This is Rajesh link.
It is official letter from BMI(Ministerium):
http://www.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~golovin/i4s_anonymous.pdf

Dear Mr.Rajesh,

Could you please send the letter to me through email.

kramasundartest3 A-T gmail

Thanks,
Ram

Hallo DVD and other Members,

I have few queries regarding eligibility for NE.

I cam to Germany as student in October 2004 and finished my education in German University in 2008 August. I was stamped in my visa 'Aufenthaltsbewilligung' on 28th December 2004. From 2009 till now I am working with 'Unbefristet' arbeitsvertrag.

I fulfill all the requirements for NE according to § 9 Aufenthaltsgesetz like 5 yrs of legal stay and others , except 60 Months of Renetenversicherung Pflichtbeitäge. I have only 56 months till now.

My query is since I was given 'Aufenthaltsbewilligung' before 1.1.2005, will the § 104 Übergangsregulung apply in my case and need not proof my 60 Months of rentenversicherung.

Any guidance in this regards is of big help to my dear members of this forum.

@Rubenmarcy

60 months rentenbeitrage is not necessary for NE.
I got mine in 2010 without that.
You should also get it without any problem.
Just approach your Ausländeramt and tell them that you would like to apply for NE.

If they don't accept your application,then you need to worry about the laws that support your application. Good luck!