I called ABH to hear what do they plan to do with my Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung.
Situation is not bad, it could go well.
Beamterin told me that she is not sure but I could get something like:
"Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt."

I must say that it is litle bit funny.
I would be able to do anything but I would need to contact ABH for everything as if I do not have Arbeitserlaubnis at all.
Funny, isn't it?

It is not funny, it is bull****
What does this mean now, when you are changing jobs, you need to always go to ABH and cry for arbeitsgenehmigung or what...

I had a good mood, but that kind of news are screwing me up.

Solange ABH zustimmt ... wtf ?

It is not the last word from ABH.
Maybe I will mannage to get only Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet.
It would be good to hear if there is anyone who has something similar.
Because if not, than this suggestion really does not make sense.

I know that NoBody allready got Eg, and some others got Be. It would be good if they would write down the exact Auflage here.
That way I could say to ABH that such a Auflage does not exist and that they should give me real Eg.

"It would be good to hear if there is anyone who has something similar"

hi DvD,
my situation is almost the same. they told me the same. however they told me initially it would take 2 weeks, but later they said it takes 8 weeks, before they hear something from AA. However i still need to wait a couple of weeks,see what happens.

u can have a cool breath and schoenes wochenende-

@DvD
"I must say that it is litle bit funny.
I would be able to do anything but I would need to contact ABH for everything as if I do not have Arbeitserlaubnis at all."

again. what do u mean by that? do u mean something related to EG? i though u could everything with EG, and u dont need to go to AB after that !? or

"Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt."

That would mean that you would lose your GC-status and therefore your right on employment without "Zustimmungsverfahren" in case when you are going to be employed as IT-Professional. Therefore - theoretically - they can use such a condition to reason an AMC-check for any good job and finally give you a job that nobody wants to take - for example, you could learn a profession of a builder or a cleaning lady ;)


Nice thing, they suggested it to me as well. Of course before i started to work as IT-professional without their agreement

"It would be good if they would write down the exact Auflage here. That way I could say to ABH that such a Auflage does not exist and that they should give me real Eg."

They can write anything there, and in case of such particular condition i even do not see how to prove that it does not correspond to GG and international law, if a condition will be changed with your agreement of course


If you mean the patterns in "Verwaltungsvorschriften" - they are just suggestions which conditions would be best to write in order to minimize the risk that somebody will file a claim and have a success. local officials can follow those, but actually do not have to

I did a few thoughts and I think I understand what did the Beamterin got wrong.

She said at start that Arbeitsberechtigung does not exists any more.
That is true but than she said that unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis does not exists.
That is completely wrong. Unbefristete ArbE must exist because §9.4 BeschVerfV says that after 3-4 y ArbE MUST be issued without any Befristung.
And if ArbE is without any Befristung than it is unbefristet.

I also know that AA has büreau for ArbBer same as before, and now they give agreemant for unbefristete ArbE. I was there, and I will call them to check if they think that ArbBer should be issued as Be or Eg Auflage in pass.

few news:
actually nothing new happened but there is new interpretation of those words that Beamterin said.
I wrote before:
Beamterin told me that she is not sure but I could get something like:
"Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt."
But this is litle bit more plausible:
Beamterin told me that she is not sure but I could get something like:
"Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet" solange AA zustimmt.

That makes much more sence (acctually that before does not make any sence at all) and beside that she told me that AA does not need to do AMC but only to check usual legal conditions (apropriate salary etc).
That way everythihg fits in the picture.

If I would get Eg that would be just great.

@DvD
can you type the german text please for 'Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung'.
I want to try also but I donot know how and what to write in German.

Yes DiVi

I also agree 101% with the interpretation of GCLER.

Clever man isn´t it?.

This proves that not all the GC are like me. Some are clever!!

So, I want to be the first one to congratulate you and I´ll strongly suggest that you buy a Citizen watch to GCLER

are you maybe GCler?
are you trying to get watch for your self?

max what is your e-mail

@DvD:

1- No I´m not. I´m YO and some other pseudonyms but more creatives than this GCLER (but not in those forums)

2- No I don´t need a watch. Each time I feel bad I buy a gift for myself. A Citizen Titanium was a gift for myself in a dark period from 2004.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your offer but I know better tricks than that!!! ;-)

@DvD
stevco11@yahoo.de

Hi DVD
Can you please forward the text also to me ?
ali.behbahani@siemens.com

Hi,
I had also applied for "Aufhebung der Auflage".
yesterday, i was also in AB, the Frauen their just donot know ANYTHING. But the good news is that at least AA has zugestimmt! i just came back without getting anything.

I am just waiting for the Sachgebietsleiter who is in Urlaub these days, he knows about the law, well. i will inform u guys, as soon as i succeed to get something sensible
@DvD
could u please also forward that text to me?
my Email:
mubasherh@hotmail.com

it would be great from u.
thanks.

My Antrag is not really the best one because I did not mention why I need Aufhebung.
Nebentätigkeit could be given as the reason.
Beside, I could ask for a AE extension in the same Antrag.

@DvD
Thanks again for email...

I have sent today my documents for Aufhebung....
See what shall happened....
I asume will be an answer with lot of crap.

Qestion....If something go 'down'...can I send him BMI answer and told him to chek again, couse there is written that law is an law and valid as it is.

Wait...
According to the Aufhebung text is clear and ok.
Need no reason why....
Simply according the paragrap explenation man have a right for BE without limitation to any company or any limitation at all, also no AMC.
The reason is good enought the paragraph itself who giv the right.
Also....in the BMI answer is clearly written that acoording to the law, it must be given.
So if it is written there that man can have it, they must give it.
If not...I will personaly go in Berlin and sit there untill they call the Beamter and tell him to do it.

Law is much stronger than this BMI letter.
And BMI letter says very litle about Aufhebung.
So concentrate more on law than on letter.

Some Beamter could ask you for good reason why you want Aufhebung. According to law you do not need reason to do it, but it is much better to have some reason if Beamter asks. Then just say you want to have Nebenjob or Nebentätigkeit beside your main job.

YO:
"So, I want to be the first one to congratulate you and I´ll strongly suggest that you buy a Citizen watch to GCLER"

who is GCler. is it maybe NoBody?

Dear Max, do not be so negative. I have sent my request for aufhebung der auflage before approx. 1 month. It is more-less similar than the one from DvD. So yesterday I have got the response: "Dear Mr. Cedomir, you can come during opening hours for change of your sticker into "selbständige erwerbstätigkeit nicht erlaubt, Beschäftigung uneingeschränkt erlaubt"... The extension of your residence permit is possible four weeks before expiration. So BE is there, unfortunately no extension :-(. My wife has also got the same yesterday, after she had said that some other people has got it too :-). So if it doesnt work for you you can try with same tactics, combined of course with apropriate law quotes.
Oh yes I forgot - I forgot to say anything about nebentätigkeit, I have just said that I want aufhebung because law has changed and it is better now. But I would suggest to put some good reason in antrag like nebentätigkeit.

Too late...
I have send the documentation as it was in DvD leter.
See what will happened.
My beamter told me to go in midle August and make my NE application and then 'wir werden sehen aber ich weiss nicht'....
The letter from BMI say strictly about changing job procedure and repetition of same paragraph 9.
As I have understand it....if this paragraph is actual and valid, then the paragraphs for 'visum ohne beschrankungen und algemeine arbeitsgenehmigung' is also valid acording the law.
I hope on something positiv.

Hello DVD,

First, I wish you best of luck for BE.

Could you forward your "Antrag...Text" to me at:

adnantar@hotmail.com

Thanks in Advance,

A.T

It looks like ABH is really planning to issue Auflage:
"Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt."


hm...
I called AA and they say that "Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet" should be issued (more than 4 y work in D).
I will have to raise Widerspruch.
But first I'll call ABH Boss.

I am thinking about this "Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt". Is it acceptable for you to reduce your goal to "Beschäftigung erlaubt" ? I think we have all found out that you actually cannot get the "Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet". On the other hand you have clearly right to BE.

Anyway if they want "zustimmung" then they have also to define the "Zustimmungsverfahren" and find the basis in the law for it. I certainly doubt that the either one of those exists. But actually where is the legal basis for you to complain ? You can actually only complain and raise widersprüch to get "Beschäftigung erlaubt".

@DvD

It seems to me that "Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt" has something to do with a § that says that you can start your own business (selbstständige Erwerbstätigkeit) only if you invest a lot of cash and employ 10 people.

But I think they mixed completely because "... solange ABH zustimmt" as Beschränkung does not exist in the law.
Actualy they are ABH and at the moment when they stick you such a Auflage they should already know if they "zustimmen" oder nicht.

I understud it.
First of all Eg is not problem.
True is that they do not have to issue it.
But they can issue it if they want.
Problem is missunderstanding.
AA boss said to ABH boss that even if AA does not check Arbeitsmarkt they have to check few other things.
But ABH did not understud that that goes only for the first time when someone takes ArbErl if he fullfils 3-4 years rule. AA boss meant first time and ABH boss understud every time when someone changes job.

I spoke to both but I did not mannage to clear it out yet.

Switching from Eg to Be would not change anything.
The ABH boss just did not fully understud § 9 der BeschVerfV.

This is totaly mess...
If they re making problems and missunderstanding I can imagine what will happened when some normal GC have to search NE.
I hardly wait my answer....

Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH zustimmt =
Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet solange ABH Mitarbeiter(in) gut gelaunt ist.

Hallo DVD,
kannst du mir, bitte, den Antrag auch schicken an
plp@plpgroup.com

Grüsse,
Peter

Looks like everybody will get Be or Eg before me.
I am still waiting ABH boss to get in touch with AA boss.

Do not worry....I am also the one.
I assume that I will not receive any at all.
I have my termin at midle August and hope that I have my luck then.

@DVD
"Looks like everybody will get Be or Eg before me."

not everybody..somebody.
But you will certainly get it as you are the pioneer in this forum.

regards,

mk

Yes I will get it.
My dear ABH boss told me that I was right after checking everything again. I can drop anytime there and pick Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet. I have high hopes on some Visumsverlängerung also.

@max
What went wrong in your case? It is not normal to ask somebody to come in 3 months for Auflage Aufhebung.
It should be done now.
Or do they plan to give you NE in August?

I have only one question.
If I ran into that many problems in getting Eg, how could somebody without german knowledge or law knowledge do it?

@DvD
Well, congratulations then.. you finally got what you have been asking for.

If someone who does not know the law and/or German can surely get professional help or ask in here Trust7..

Regards,

Lacrima

@DvD
I have send it before 1 week at Friday....
All was OK.
At Moday afternoon the mail has come back to me from the post stating that instead 1€ I have to make a stamps from 1,50€.
I have take it as some sign.I am bit suggestive...
The Beamter told me to go at the midle August and submit papers for NE.
Meantime I was speaking with my boss, explain him and ask him if he support me for NE in August.
He told me that will do all I need.
I wait till August.

Sh.., I did not get AE extension.
I arranged everything about extension with Beamterin and today she wasn't there.
So I had to explain whole story from the beginning to another Beamterin.
After she heard the story she said she will contact AA to check if I can get Aufhebung.
Since I repeated few times that I did all that allready, it was obviously that she did not listen or did not want to listen what I say.
After some time she gave me new AE with Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet.
It is nice to have Eg but it is sh..ty that I got new AE for only remaining 8 months. Looks like I am some refugee or criminal. And what is worse I could get it if another Beamterin was there.

She said to come for NE 6 weeks earlier.

A question. You said:

"And what is worse I could get it if another Beamterin was there."

Why, how, based on which law etc. ?

Based on my charm which is useless with this Beamterin because she is too old.

Congrat... from me.
Anyway I think is supper,you have more 8 months and there you are.

Hi *,

After reading all the posts, instead of getting an answer I got more confused!

I am going to renew my passport, and would like to know if it is possible to change my Company Binded Visa to a unbinded one.. IS it possible and under what law? I live and work in Munich since about 4 years.

And if a written application is needed could anyone point me to the template by DvD which I read a lot about but never found a link to it..

Thank you in advance..

max
"If they re making problems and missunderstanding I can imagine what will happened when some normal GC have to search NE."

it is allways nice to now that I am not normal.
Thans max.


to this new guy:
you can ask for Auflage Aufhebung according to:
§9 BeschVerfV:
http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/beschverfv.html#9

for my letter send a email to one of those addresses in posts. they will all send it.

Situation is completely clear. You have right to unbinded visa (Be or Eg) but it is also possible that you do not get it if your Beamte does not now it.

Thanks Dvd, I really appreciate your quick response.. I will try my luck and post my experience..

By the way Dvd, how should we apply to get both BE(Beschäftigung erlaubt) and EG(Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet)

It depends on them. You can only say that all the other GClers got Eg if you want it.
And both geht nicht. Eg is litle bit better so go for Eg

Hello DvD,

Next week I have plan to apply it. I need the text you mentioned before
Could you please send me the text of "My Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung" as well?

Thx a lot for your help. I really appreciate it

email : kabari7@yahoo.com


Cheers,
Kabari

Hi DVD

Can you sent me something about the text or form for Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung too.
Thank in advanced.

I went yesterday to ask for BE according to BeschVerfV as most of people discuss so far. She said that this law is valid for someone who want to have the extra job only. The name of the company have to bind to the visa for the visa valid. And if i still want to do the job according to this law, she give me a paper which I have to give to the employer to fill in the form and the she will give to the job market to decide that I am allowed to get the job or not. I told her that what I 've heard is not something like that. But she still confirm after talking with her chief or her collegue. Then I have nothing to say again her as she convince her understading against law.
Can you recommend me how to proceed.

I think your text or form of Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung may help me if I try to ask her again.

Thank

Hi DVD

Can you sent me something about the text or form for Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung too.
Thank in advanced.

I went yesterday to ask for BE according to BeschVerfV as most of people discuss so far. She said that this law is valid for someone who want to have the extra job only. The name of the company have to bind to the visa for the visa valid. And if i still want to do the job according to this law, she give me a paper which I have to give to the employer to fill in the form and the she will give to the job market to decide that I am allowed to get the job or not. I told her that what I 've heard is not something like that. But she still confirm after talking with her chief or her collegue. Then I have nothing to say again her as she convince her understading against law.
Can you recommend me how to proceed.

I think your text or form of Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung may help me if I try to ask her again.

Thank
iced

Hi,

Truly said, I don't understand when HR in my company asks me to come to Ausländerbehorde bringing letter stated that I can not be "gekündigt" from my company. They said I should ask the AB to change the second page (Auflage) that I don't need any Arbeitsgenehmigung at all. Is this BE you all guys are discussing?

EE
NB: ada yang cari orang Indonesia ya? Saya dari Jakarta mas:-)

Hi dvd!!

From the last message. I forget to give you my email sawadee-ja@web.de
Thank you in advanced

it will be great if somebody send me the letter/application for "Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung" , so I can have a try and let's you know the result. My email address m_c_s31@yahoo.com

Hi ,

Today I received my BE. thnak you, DVD for the letter. For this purpose, I went 2 times to BE, talk directly with the Beamter in German(eventhough my German is not good). But this is only valid until, when my greencard expire(Jan 2006) and it is written like this

"berechtigt zur ausuebung einer erwerbstaetigkeit."

Thank you all,

MC

Hello,

It would be great if one of you can also send me the "Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung" application letter.
Address:
pwehrli@gmail.com

Thanks in advance!

Hi all,
I could also expect someone to send me "Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung" application letter by email. Thanks a lot !

my address
pinnacleuse@yahoo.com

kodam2

hi all,
I have a peculiare situation. i have been here for abt 2,1/2 yrs. and on my visa my company name is stated but at the end is a sentence which says Selbstandig tatigkeit erlaubt...
now, my question is : is it wat is called the BE that ppl here are discussing about?
or should i apply for the BE when i reach 3 yrs stay in DE???
have a nice day to all!!!

I am also in the bee line for the letter please send it to babloo_i@yahoo.com

thanks

I have sent the "Antrag" to pwehrli, kodam2 and babloo

Fred, got it! cheers!

---------------
Do you think is it possible to get NE while working for any kind of job with this BE/Eg etc.? Do the AB agree to give NE if you are an "Arbeiter" I know if you are categorized as "Angestellter" you don't need to worry.

Arbeiter - basically one how works on weekly basis
Angestellter - one who works on monthly basis (white collar)

Arbeiter or Angestellter, for NE it is all the same.

Exactly 1 month and 2 weeks...still no answer althow I have call and they have answer that I will receive information in time of 14 days.
Should I call them again?
It is stuped to do anything about my BE request anymore couse in midle Agust I have to make application for NE.(my visum endet in midle October).
Any suggestion?

Obtain BE although it might seem senseless to you at the moment. If you read carefuly §9 AufenthG you will see that the prerequisite for the NE is BE. Some smart ABH can decide to say "No BE, No NE".

I do not get it...
Can you be more specific please...
I understand that they can say no BE (if they decided (want) that.
But why not NE when aacording §9 I have all what is needed...

1. Everything will work fine for you. You will get BE and soon also NE and you will have finally your peace. So do not worry too much in the first place. I would seriously reccommend you: if all that is too much stress for you and if it is really so much important then for god's sake invest some money and let the vpmk lawyers do it !

2. Look:

§9 Niederlassungserlaubnis

...
5. ihm die Beschäftigung erlaubt ist, sofern er Arbeitnehmer ist
...

Because of that some people on info4 alien forum think that you need first BE according to §9 BeschVerfV and then you can get NE.

But, you as GC already have "Beschäftigung erlaubt" according to §46 BeschV:

(2) Die einer IT-Fachkraft nach § 6 Abs. 2 der Verordnung über die Arbeitsgenehmigung für hoch qualifizierte Fachkräfte der Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie erteilte befristete Arbeitserlaubnis gilt als unbefristete Zustimmung zum Aufenthaltstitel zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung fort.

Zu Absatz 2:

Für IT-Fachkräfte wird mit der Übergangsbestimmung die zeitliche Befristung der erteilten Arbeitserlaubnis aufgehoben und - wie für andere qualifizierte Beschäftigungen auch ­ die dauernde Zulassung zum Arbeitsmarkt durch Fortgeltung der Arbeitserlaubnis als unbefristete Zustimmung zur Ausübung einer Beschäftigung eröffnet

So you, and others, can see that here is nowhere specified that you are allowed to work only as IT. Actually we all have BE already, §9 BeschVerfV is nice but in my opinion is not necessary for any GC.

Partial proof that what I say is true: I have got BE according to §46 BeschV, my wife got BE on the spot, and also some other GCs reported this on the forum.

So you cannot lose, hardly anyone has better cards than GCs.

Do you have your "Sachbearbeiter" in ABH ? Find out who exactly is processing your application, call every week two times and ask about the status. Don't be agressive. Be polite but at the same time resolute. If they say that they are still waiting for response from AA then ask when is the deadline for the AA response. If you get unsatisfactory answer then call AA and ask for the status of your request. If they reject you on the "Zentrale" then try to find out telephone number of people previously responsible for work permits (not for GC but for all work permits) and call them. They are still doing this job. Do not talk with people on "Zentrale" about your request in ABH or AA, you will just annoy them and they will annoy you, but you cannot get real information.

If you think you have waited too long then talk with your Sachbearbeiter in ABH and tell him to check the possibilities to give you BE according to §46 BeschV without involvement of the AA. "Vorläufige Anwendungshinweiße" are telling that BeschV is mostly regulating the work of the AA, but some paragraphs have also effects on the "Aufenthaltsrechtliche fragen" --> §46 BeschV is explicitely mentioned. Thus, for any action of the ABH according to §46 BeschV they do not have to ask anything in AA.

Good luck and stay cool !

Zdravo Cedo,

I have 'fall' again on some thinking in the forum.My fault...
But thaks for explaining.
If 'the forum' was relevant body for explaining and issuing residence status for all 'Ausländer' in Germany, I would send the documents to Trust7 and look 'some of forum members' for my lawer...
Do not understand me wrong my friend,....

Hello All,

I sent the application(actually got from Fred) for BE to Ausländerbehörde on 4.08.2005. Today I got a reply from them. Where they have written: "Gemäß § 9 Abs. 1 Nr. 1 BeschVerfV kann die Zustimmung zur Beschäftigung erteilt werden, wenn Sie drei Jahre rechtmaßig eine versicherungspflichtige Beschaftigung im Bundesgebiet ausgeübt haben. Um diese Voraussetzung zu prüfen, benötigen wir die Nachweise der "Meldung zur Sozialversicherung". Ihr uns zugesandten Gehaltsabrechnungen sind als Nachweis für die versicherungspflichtigen zeiten allein nicht ausreichend."

It seems I may get it or?
Thanks Fred and all.

Now please give me some information in the following issues:

1. How can I get "Meldung zur Sozialversicherung".?.

2. I have worked as follows:
1 month full-time - 8 months 80 hours/month - 1.5 months no work (only Master thesis but got paid 650 Euro/month) - 7 months full-time - 2 years full-time(with GC), is it ok or gap of 1.5 months will exclude my first 9 months work? Please tell me.

3. I already attached last 23 months salary slip, and for first 16 months the yearly summary slip, then why did the lady ask for "Meldung zur Sozialversicherung" ?


Thanks all again.
Abu

asmfiroz@yahoo.com

Sounds supper...
The lady has inform you that you will get it only to send how many months you have pay sozialversicherung...
So...(I have same also)...
1. Go to www.bfa.de (there are online forms where you can put your sozialversicherung nummber,adress,name) and get the written form about your social payment in DE.
2. If you in mean time was 'arbeitsloos' and have apply over Arbeitsamt, the payment for social security is payed over Arbeitsamt.
3. If you miss some moths you can 'pay off' alone but only in several months before actual date.The payment can be minimum (do not get me on word but I think some 60-70€)
4. May best wishes

Ah yes...

Meldung für sozial versicherung is the paper that you get when the year is finished and you got it from your employer togeather with your lohnsteuerkarte....
Your employer is obligatet to pay Sozialversicherung and give it to you the document.

Just back from a cool vacation!

Here´s the BFA link to get a document which states howmany months you paid to the Rentenkasse:

http://www.bfa.de/nn_9112/de/Funktionen/Kontoinformation/Kontoinformation-Integration.html__nnn=true

"bfa.de/nn_9112/de/Funktionen/Kontoinformation/ Kontoinformation-Integration.html__nnn=true"

Just to finish this topic in a proper way.
My Antrag auf Auflage Aufhebung is thanks to Fred available online on:
http://www.geocities.com/fredjeffry/trust7/ABH_antrag_DvD.rtf

Hints:
Be carefull with it. It is not some ABH form to get BE or EG. It is just a letter that I wrote to get EG. So if you come to ABH and say: "I found your form used to get BE.", they will look you like an idiot. You should say you wrote it align.
BTW it is not convenient for everyone but for GC with 3 or better 4y in D is good.

And it is not perfect because there is no CAUSE for Auflega Aufhebung given. If you change job cause is clear, but if you are working in the same company than cause could be:
"I want to do Nebentätigkeit beside my steady job."