I have a normal Arbeitserlaubnis and Aufenthaltserlaubnis specified for a designated employer for one year(I am not in the IT branch). Because my current contract is limited for only one year, I have to worry about my future and are seeking for a long term working contract. My question now is: if I find another job and need to change the Arbeitserlaubnis and Aufenthaltserlaubnis. What should I do step by step?

In performing the change, there are many risky factors, for example:
1. if I have resigned from my current job before I get the Arbeitserlaubnis for the next employer,, I have then no ground to stay in Germany because my Aufenthaltserlaubnis is limited to the former employer.
2. If I do not resign from my current job, I might not get the new Arbeitslaubnis and Aufenthaltserlaubnis.

Could any of you be kind enough to find out how I deal with this situation?

Moon

U R Cright that u will b out if u do not have a job here.
Just use ur commonsense and do not lift ur leg until u do not find another place to put ;)

I mean whats the problem in continuing the current job and keep finding the another one during that time? But once u have a job then ur new office can file for ur extension here. But there are lots of fishy things in between. e.g ur new employer has to prove that there is no german available or ready to do that job then only he can give it to etc etc.
So act carefully.

Thank you, Uttam, for your understanding of my situation. What you said is absolutely correct, that the German Arbeitsamt has to prove that no other German could replace me on the job. I do not have the worry yet in this regards because my current position was already proved for 2 times and there was actually no other German person could replace me. However it is a pity that my current contract is only for 1 year. Thats why I was asking help from you all to find out the solution for the risky factors in case I have a new employer now who is willing to offer me a long term contract. How could I proceed with the formalities safely?

Could anyone be of help in this regard?

AOA,

Note-Kündigung:
Let's say 1-3 months depending upon your Kündigung period with the first employer

I would suggest you to take your new employer into confidence and tell him about your situation.

Because, I think, you should not lose the long term contract. Now, to make it safe. Just sign the contract in advance(Check Note-Kündigung), without losing your current job. Now, try to get the Arbeitsamt paper meanwhile and ofcourse Aufenthaltserlaubnis(Paper formality). And, this is possible only if you take your new employer into confidence for an advance contract(Check Note-Kündigung).

But, be sure, to keep it upto you and new employer and not to anybody else :-).

And, I dont think its illegal to go this way.

For example, what if you are with your family(wife and kids). So, before leaving your current Wohnung. You will certainly make sure to have contract for the new Wohnung before leaving the current place.

I hope, you understand the situation and system.

Wish you best of Luck.

In proceeding your suggestions I will have the following concerns:

1. would the responsible Arbeitsamt disclose it to my current employer about my motive to change the job? I mean it is quite possible while proving my documentation and finding out that I already have an Arbeitserlaubnis for the former employer. Are there any law prohibiting them doing so?

2. After consulting the relevant Ausländeramt for the application of the Aufenthaltserlaubnis for the sake of the next employer, I was told to present them the new work contract as one of the necessary documentation. This makes me really crasy. How could I present him a new work contract for the future employer while still working for the current employer and having an Aufenthaltserlaubnis for the current job? In this case, I would be in trouble because I would then have double contracts during this period. It would then be illegal.

In case I resign from the current job in order to try to make everything legal, I am not sure if the new Arbeitserlaubnis could surely be issued. If not, that means I am losing the work for this year as well. What shall I do?

You might have a better idea?

hi All
As mentioned before by me, i would recommend not to get too much concerned on the issue of 5 years.I am sure we would get the extension (although PR is something that one cannot talk about now).Holding on to current jobs is therefore very critical.
As far as the govt is concerned, there are high hopes of reformation, specially on the announcement of Horst Köller (IMF chief) as the president of Germany.Something tells me that a major powershift might occur from the current constitutionally granted powers of the 'Kanzler' to 'Bundespräsident'.Thats the only way CDU/CSU will bring back the days of Kohl's Germany back, and will find out a solution to the immigration issue(naturally as a common agenda with SPD).
have a great day
GnR

To the best of my knowlege and experience only ur new employer can handle it. Present him ur current scenario. If he is really intereted in u then he will definetly find a way out. I also htink that people in arbeitsamt and KVR will be more cooperative if he will ( or someone in german language ) will communicate with them.
Let him ensure everything from his side and then u can sign the contract and proceed. Again I think once u have a job then doing other formalities is not a big problem.

People sitting in those govt offices are not fools to make u sit here and allow u to take the arbeitlos geld, they will prefer if u work and pay the taxes ;)

best of luck.

As far as your fear is concern. Its natural. But, to say that its illegal. Its not true, because even I have experience of my German collegue, who had more than one contract being offered by different companies.

I know, you are not German. But, still, dont be so afraid that your current employer will know about this new offer. First, its your right to try for a better future and noone can say it illegal.

Again, I think, you need to tell this issue with your new employer and upon receiving an advance contract(say 1-3 months). You go to Arbeitsamt and they will not do any harm or will inform to your current employer. But, rather, they can issue a new work permit, where your new employer name and period of contract will be written.

Then, with this work-permit, you can face the Ausländeramt easily to extend your Aufenthältserlaubnis.

Still, if you find yourself with fears, then I would suggest to either get someone who can speak good German and goes with you to Arbeitsamt.

Otherwise, just hire a lawyer to get this thing done, who ofcourse will charge you a fee to help you around.

Wish you best of luck

Thanks a lot for all of your ideas and suggestions. I just wish what A.T said would come true if I face the situation of changing the Arbeitserlaubnis - " You go to Arbeitsamt and they will not do any harm or will inform to your current employer. But, rather, they can issue a new work permit, where your new employer name and period of contract will be written". I don't know if you really have the experience or have heard of somebody having such experiences before. Anyhow I am a bit encouraged by you all.

One of you has mentioned "Arbeitslosgeld" in his or her comments. I therefore have another Question:

By the end of this year, I will be working for two years in Germany. I have an "Arbeitserlaubnis" and an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" that are limited to the end of this year as well. Am I entitled to enjoy "Arbeitslosgeld" by the end of this year? I mean, My Aufenthaltserlaubis will not be valid for the next year. Am I entitled to stay in Germany and ask for the Arbeitslosgeld? If yes, for how long?

Does any of you know this matter?

"Am I entitled to enjoy "Arbeitslosgeld" by the end of this year? I mean, My Aufenthaltserlaubis will not be valid for the next year. Am I entitled to stay in Germany and ask for the Arbeitslosgeld? If yes, for how long?"

You can ask for unemployment benefit of course, but there are some prerequisites which you need to meet in order to get your application accepted. one of them for foreigners is: the job market should not be closed for you. and it is, of course, closed for you in case when local immigration office annulates or does not prolong you residence permit motivating it by absence of a job and abides you to leave the country. therefore employment office usually asks you to go to immigration office and bring them confirmation for how long you can stay in Germany. for that period of time they normally should pay you unemployment benefit.

it is up for immigration office to decide how much time they are willing to give you (after your residence permit expires) before you have to leave the country. this period of time according to law can not be less than two weeks and if you worked in Germany during two years they normally should give you two-three months during which you can get unemployment benefit and search for a new job. if you would find one before given period expires and would at least have a confirmation from employment office that a new work permit will be issued to you, i guess immigration office will have no problems with giving you a new residence permit.

accordingly to your question in first message, if it is not possible to persuade your employer to prolong your work contract, of course you need to search for a new job, moreover, by the law you can freely do it in your working hours and your employer can not prohibit you to do that.

when applying for unemployment benefit, just remember that by new rules you need to register in local employment office in three months before your current work contract ends or in the next day after getting dismissal from your chief, otherwise they can subtract some amount of money from your unemployment benefit.

I am new to this forum and have somewhat similar situation. I am working in Germany for the last one and half years as a Praktikant with normal work permit after finishing my studies. Now my company wants me to employ as a regular employee and have renewed my contract for one year. I was to the Foreign office for my prologation of my residance permit but they said first they will contact the work office to know if the work office will issue me a work permit and only then I will be isseue me with a residance permit.

Now it is about almost two months and I am still waiting. My company has also contacted the work office and sent them my job description and other related documents to show them I am the right person for them.

Could you please give your sugesstions for the following:

What is the exact procedure in this situation. Now I know that the Foreign office had already contacted the Work office and my case is now in Work office.

How much I need to wait. Will it take six to eigth weeks as the time required by the Work office to look for another person form EU.

In case they send their confirmation to Foreign office will I have to go through the same procedure again in the Work office that is waiting for another six weeks.

Many thanks for any sugesstiion which I may have from your side.

Hi All,

Check this article on DW.

http://www.dw-
world.de/english/0,3367,7549_A_1136979_1_A,00.html

There are quite some intrstng links following this link.

Sudeep

BTW, I just couldnt figure out how to start a new thread,
Can some one enlighten me on this.

1. Choose the forum where you want the topic to be discussed.
e.g. -> Click Forums->Integration

2. When you are on that forum, scroll to the bottom of the page and you will find the button that says New Topic.

That's how I did it.

For those who (GC) has worked more than 1 year in Germany entittled minimum of 6 months arbeitlosgeld. This order have been issued sometime last year by arbeitsamnt. Thanks to Detlef and gang from this forum.

But I could not find in the last previous thread of regarding this letter. If anyone has it, it is good to re-post for the sake of new forumer.

If you do have problem with arbeitsamt where they do not want to give you arbeitlosgeld, then you should show them the letter.

"For those who (GC) has worked more than 1 year in Germany entittled minimum of 6 months arbeitlosgeld. This order have been issued sometime last year by arbeitsamnt. Thanks to Detlef and gang from this forum."

if you are not abided to leave the country. and in case when nothing changes, local employment office will not prolong a work permit and local immigration office therefore will not give you a new residence permit and will abide you to leave the country in, so to say, three months. then you will not get an unemployment benefit for 6 months, or?

what is most interesting, that normally local employment office can not prolong your work contract after five years are over accordingly to § 6 Abs. 2 IT-ArgV - in case when you worked during whole five years period - because it is said there that work permits can be issued only up to five years in total duration. so if you honestly worked and paid taxes during whole 5 years without being unemployed, and if nothing changes in the legal system, local officials can not do anything - they only can say that you have to leave the country and apply for a new entry visa from home, if your company wants to have you further. now, if you were unemployed for, let's say, one year during five-years-period, then accordingly to the same article and paragraph, a new work permit can be issued to you - and when you were living during six years in Germany, you are eligible for an unlimited work permit and therefore for an unlimited residence permit. "Wer arbeitet, ist der Dumme!" *lol*

there is one more way (about which i can think right now) to try to fool the german goverment. as it is known, if you can not get a new work permit because local employment office refused to give you the one, your employer must fire you. but in case of dismissal you have the right to submit a claim to a local court of law, telling that your dismissal was made not accordingly to the law. the legal process you of course will lose, but 1) it costs nothing to employee; 2) it will last probably half year, probably even more only in the first instance, then you can submit an appeal on a decision of a court of law - it's your right; and 3) what is most important - you are unemployed for employment office but not for immigration office while your claim is processed, therefore you should get a new residence permit and if you reach six years while living in Germany, you are eligible to apply for an unlimited work permit -> unlimited residence permit.

"what is most interesting, that normally local employment office can not prolong your work contract after"

can not prolong your work permit, of course - my omission in the previous posting.

"I am working in Germany for the last one and half years as a Praktikant with normal work permit after finishing my studies. Now my company wants me to employ as a regular employee and have renewed my contract for one year."

1) what exactly was written in your work permit?
2) sometimes they write this info in a work permit, sometimes not - therefore if you can answer a second question there is no need to answer the first - accordingly which regulation and which article of regulation previous work permit was issued to you?

Many thanks for your reply.

In my passport I have an entry as "To work as a Prakitkant within my company only". I finished my studies two years back and got this work permit to work as a Praktikant.

Now my company wants me to give a new contract to work as a normal employee.

It is taking too much time to have the residance permit as the Foreign office first want to make sure that I will get the work permit from Work office and my application is now with the work office.

Is it a normal procedure and how much time it can take.

Regards

What does this subject have to do with "Start up" ?

Is trust7.de getting bloated with visa problems ? Since those are critical to many of us, does it deserve its own category ?

Just some idea.

many thanks to you all, especially to Trusday for your detailed suggestions and comments.

"In my passport I have an entry as "To work as a Prakitkant within my company only". I finished my studies two years back and got this work permit to work as a Praktikant."

in your passport you have a residence permit. and with such condition (i mean "to work as a trainee") it is, of course, has to be changed if you will work as an ordinary employee. but it's not a problem once you get a new work permit.

so you worked two years as a trainee. then your residence permit could not be issued accordingly to §2 Abs.3 AAV. so it was issued accordingly to §2 Abs.1 AAV? one more question - you have currently "Aufenthaltsbewilligung", not "Aufenthaltserlaubnis", right?

if it was §2 Abs.1 AAV, then in order to work as a normal employee (not a trainee) you, of course, need to get a new work permit and a new residence permit (accordingly IT-ArGV or §5 Nr. 2 AAV - depending on your profession; there are also some particular professions, for which §4 AAV and §5 Nr.1,3-10 are applied - for example, cook, teacher and so on - but i guess it is not your case). for both of them (IT-ArGV and §5 Nr.2 AAV) your local employment office needs to check the labour market, moreover, in case of §5 Nr.2 AAV your employer must prove a public interest in your employment. such a check, of course, requires a time - usually 4-6 weeks but it can take longer, and you, unfortunately, can do nothing here if it is §5 Nr.2 AAV, because otherwise your local employment office can always say that there is no public interest in your employment. in case of §5 Nr.2 AAV it is better to let your employer handle all questions with employment office himself.

so we need to find out whether it is IT-ArGV or §5 Nr.2 AAV. i have put below three links on a scan of one paper - "Vermittlungsauftrag" - can you tell me whether your employer has filled it out and submitted to local employment office or not? if he did - it is §5 Nr.2 AAV; and if you intend to work in IT, you should say to your employer that a simplified procedure which is Green Card is possible for you (accordingly IT-ArGV, for the first work permit a check of labour market is required but no public interest comes in play).

http://home.graffiti.net/trusday:graffiti.net/vermittlungsauftrag_1.jpg

http://home.graffiti.net/trusday:graffiti.net/vermittlungsauftrag_2.jpg

http://home.graffiti.net/trusday:graffiti.net/vermittlungsauftrag_3.jpg

I have two questions to Trusday or other experts: Does the Arbeitsamt have the right to reject an application of Arbeitserlaubis(non IT branch) with the excuse that there are a lot of applicants(for example 30) who have unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis applying for this very position in the meantime? In case such an excuse is given by an Arbeitsamt, do I have any right to defend?

the second question: A friend in the IT branch wants to know until when would the Greencard policy be valid? He needs to apply for GC by the end of this year.

"Does the Arbeitsamt have the right to reject an application of Arbeitserlaubis(non IT branch) with the excuse that there are a lot of applicants(for example 30) who have unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis applying for this very position in the meantime? In case such an excuse is given by an Arbeitsamt, do I have any right to defend?"

They can and you can not hope to make any successful claim in case when your employer agrees with the decision of an employment office and hires somebody from those 30 applicants instead of you. Now, if your employer does not want anybody but you he should write some very rare prerequisites for a job and reject all those applicants because they do not meet his demands for a job position while you do. But it's up for your employer and he may not care whom he gets *lol* ;)

Normally that's how a system in Germany works - people without a job but with unlimited residence permit or EU citizenship register in local employment office, get an unemployment benefit, sit in the home and do not actively search for a new job. Officials in employment offices also do not want to work hard - they wait while unemployed ones will find a job themselves. Then comes a non-EU citizen, who actively searches for a job position and finds one. But he needs to get a work permit. So he gives information about working place to an employment office, employment office forwards it to registered job-seekers from EU, German employer and unemployed EU-citizen find each other, non-EU citizen gets no work permit and eventually has to leave Germany or accept a job which no native would accept.

There, however, exists a possibility to make a claim even when your employer hires somebody from those 30 guys and your employment office rejects an application for a work permit - but only if you will have major difficulties for sure in case you do not get this job (leaving Germany is not considered to be a major difficulty when you are not a refuge de facto) and you informed about those difficulties your local employment office (if you submitted an application for a work permit) or your employer (if he submitted an application for a work permit). However, the legal dispute in such a case is not going to be easy and it is hard to tell whether there is a good chance to win it.

"the second question: A friend in the IT branch wants to know until when would the Greencard policy be valid? He needs to apply for GC by the end of this year."

Accordingly to §6 Abs.1 IT-ArGV (edition from 16.07.2003), an application for a new green card (first work permit) can be submitted till 31.12.2004. Accordingly to the same edition of IT-ArGV, there is no end date of the program (in the previous edition it was specified). However, five-year limitation on work permits is still valid.

Hi, Tursday, you have told me the following in the last emails:

"it is up for immigration office to decide how much time they are willing to give you (after your residence permit expires) before you have to leave the country. this period of time according to law can not be less than two weeks and if you worked in Germany during two years they normally should give you two-three months during which you can get unemployment benefit and search for a new job. "

I just consulted the Ausländerbehörder, He told me that if my Aufenthalts finished, I should leave Germany then. He said normally it is not possible to have two-three months to find news jobs here.

Do you mean that only if I find a new employer could I have the prerequisition of staying here? In this case, I can not enjoy the Arbeitslosgeld at all.

Hope to hear from you soon.

"I just consulted the Ausländerbehörder, He told me that if my Aufenthalts finished, I should leave Germany then. He said normally it is not possible to have two-three months to find news jobs here."

He is not right. Let's analyse a legal situation here - probably you can print this out and show him. *lol* ;)

Accordingly to 42.1.3.0.4 AuslG-VwV you have a duty to leave the country in case when your residence permit is not valid any more and you did not apply for a new residence permit, this duty exists without issuing of corresponding written decision:

42.1.3.0 Die Ausreisepflicht entsteht kraft Gesetzes ohne vorherigen Verwaltungsakt
...
42.1.3.0.4 - durch Ablauf der Geltungsdauer der Aufenthaltsgenehmigung, sofern nicht rechtzeitig eine Verlängerungbeantragt wurde,

however, accordingly to 42.1.8 AuslG-VwV in this case (we do not consider a case when you are in a jail accordingly to judge's decision - then it's not so) your local immigration office should send you a written decision in which there will be a threat of deportation if you do not leave the country before specified date:

42.1.8.
...
Soweit die Ausreisepflicht nicht auf einem Verwaltungsakt beruht, ist der Ausländer auf die Ausreisepflicht hinzuweisen. Dieser Hinweis ist im allgemeinen mit einer Abschiebungsandrohung unter Festsetzung einer Ausreisefrist nach § 50 Abs. 1 zu verbinden.

accordingly to 50.1.1.1 AuslG-VwV the minimal time which is given in your case is 15 days or one month:

50.1.1.1 Die sich aus der Fristsetzung ergebenden Pflichten des Ausländers regelt § 42 Abs. 3. Die Fristsetzung liegt im Ermessen der Behörde (siehe Nrn. 42.3.2 und 50.1.1.2). Sie ist durch § 42 Abs. 3 Satz 2 und 3 begrenzt, wonach die Ausreisefrist spätestens sechs Monate nach dem Eintritt der Unanfechtbarkeit der Ausreisepflicht endet, wenn sie im Einzelfall nicht wegen Vorliegens einer besonderen Härte befristet verlängert wird. Gesetzlich festgelegte Mindestfristen ergeben sich aus spezialgesetzlichen Vorschriften (§ 36 Abs. 1 AsylVfG: eine Woche; § 38 Abs. 1 AsylVfG: ein Monat; § 38 Abs. 2 AsylVfG: eine Woche; § 12 Abs. 7 Satz 2 AufenthG/EWG: fünfzehn Tage bzw. ein Monat). Kriegs- oder Bürgerkriegsflüchtlingen wird nach § 32a Abs. 9 Satz 1 eine Ausreisefrist von vier Wochen eingeräumt.

and the countdown starts from the time when you have received the written decision of your local immigration office accordingly to 50.1.1.4 AuslG-VwV:

50.1.1.4 Die Ausreisefrist ist grundsätzlich durch Angabe eines Wochen- oder Monatszeitrahmens zu bestimmen. Der Beginn der Frist ist regelmäßig auf den Zeitpunkt des Wirksamwerdens der Verfügung (Bekanntgabe des Verwaltungsakts) abzustellen. Das Vorliegen von Abschiebungshindernissen oder Duldungsgründen
hat keinen Einfluss auf die Fristsetzung (§ 50 Abs. 3 Satz 1).

therefore if you do not have any reason to prolong your residence permit, do not tell this to your local immigration office: firstly they will need time to find this out, then it's normally one week (probably more) while they will write their decision + several more days before their decision will reach you. Such decisions an immigration office sends with a certificate of delivery (costs them 5,60€ and post office issues them a certificate where it is written when exactly you have received a letter).

now, accordingly to 42.3.2 AuslG-VwV they also need to consider public interests as well as must give you possibility to manage your personal matters when they set up a period of time during which you need to leave the country:

42.3.2 In der Regel wird die Ausreisefrist im Rahmen der Abschiebungsandrohung festgelegt. Wird ausnahmsweise keine Abschiebungsandrohung erlassen, kann die Ausländerbehörde nach § 42 Abs. 3 eine Ausreisefrist bestimmen. Bei der Einräumung und Bemessung einer Ausreisefrist sind auch öffentliche Interessen zu berücksichtigen (z.B. Beweiserhebung in einem strafrechtlichen Ermittlungsverfahren). Sprechen konkrete Tatsachen oder andere Anhaltspunkte dafür, dass eine ausreisepflichtige Person von Menschenhandel betroffen ist, so ist grundsätzlich eine Frist zur freiwilligen Ausreise von mindestens vier Wochen vorzusehen. Die Betroffenen werden über die Möglichkeit informiert, sich durch spezielle Beratungsstellen
betreuen und helfen zu lassen. Die Ausreisefrist soll darüber hinaus dem Ausländer die Möglichkeit geben, seine persönlichen Angelegenheiten zu regeln.

and they can set it up to six months, and prolong it even further in individual cases when you will inevitably have big difficulties with the decision - accordingly to §42 Abs.3 AuslG:

AuslG § 42 Ausreisepflicht

(3) Ist die Ausreisepflicht vollziehbar, hat der Ausländer das Bundesgebiet unverzüglich oder, wenn ihm eine Ausreisefrist gesetzt ist, bis zum Ablauf der Frist zu verlassen. Die Ausreisefrist endet spätestens sechs Monate nach dem Eintritt der unanfechtbarkeit der Ausreisepflicht. Sie kann in besonderen Härtefällen befristet verlängert werden.

Normally they give three months to people which have been living and working in Germany during several years. However, it's up to them, and in case when you want to get a bigger time period it's up to you to decide how to show them that you will have major difficulties when leaving Germany.

Now, if you find a new job before you have to leave the country and get a new work permit, you will be eligible for a new residence permit - and once you get it, accordingly to §50 Abs.4 AuslG you do nor need to worry any more about your duty to leave the country:

AuslG § 50 Androhung der Abschiebung

(4) Die Ausreisefrist wird unterbrochen, wenn die Vollziehbarkeit der Ausreisepflicht oder der Androhung entfällt. Nach Wiedereintritt der Vollziehbarkeit bedarf es keiner erneuten Fristsetzung, auch wenn die Vollziehbarkeit erst nach dem Ablauf der Ausreisefrist entfallen ist.


It's good to know your rights, or *lol*? ;)

yup, here is one more interesting thing:

1.2.4 Heimatlose Ausländer sind kraft Gesetzes (§ 12 HAG) zum Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet berechtigt. In ihre Pässe oder Reiseausweise ist folgender Vermerk einzutragen:
"Der Inhaber dieses Passes/Reiseausweises ist heimatloser Ausländer nach dem Gesetz über die Rechtsstellung heimatloser Ausländer im Bundesgebiet vom 25. April 1951 und zum Aufenthalt im Gebiet der Bundesrepublik Deutschland berechtigt."

so in case you can prove that you are not only stateless but also countryless (how gypsies are for example), then you can live in Germany without any residence permits *lol* ;)

hi, Trusday, thanks so much for your detailed explanation. I will try to study your suggestions. Some of the "juristische" words are difficult for me to understand thoroughly. But I will try. And I might show the "Ausländerbehörder" as soon as I understand it. I will revert to you then.

have a nice weekend. :-)

Dear Trusday,
After studying your comments for my case, I have the following questions:
1. I find the following two sentences are contradictary. I don’t know how to behave it rightly.
a) “according to 42.1.3.0.4 AuslG-VwV I have a duty to leave the country…”
b) according to “42.1.8” Soweit die Ausreisepflicht nicht auf einem Verwaltungsakt beruht, ist der Ausländer auf die Ausreisepflicht hinzuweisen…”
My Aufenthaltstitel, befristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis, ist valid until a specified date. This date is normally the ending date of my working contract. I understood it as my duty to leave the country before this date because it is stated on my Passport that such an “Aufenthaltserlaubnis” ist “Gültig bis” this date. I have even tried to talk to the Ausländerbehörder during my last conversation with him, that it is not practical for me to work until 18:00 on my last work day and have only 6 hours to pack all my things and leave Germany before 24:00 hour because otherwise I am not legal to stay in Germany after 24:00 hour then. This Ausländerbehörder told me that I should arrange my things using my holidays (Urlaub) in advance to achieve this. To tell you the truth, I feel very bad to be treated like this after my knowledge being used by this country and being driven away within 6 hours without being considered of any difficulties in arranging the personal effects. The Ausländerbehörder told me that arrangement of the personal effects is not the reason to extend my resident permit.
In this case, I feel it difficult to do as you suggested: do not tell this to your local immigration office … before their decision will reach you.

On the other sides, it does not help me to reach my aim of applying for “Arbeitslosgeld” by doing so. Because I will be requested to show the “Arbeitsamt” a “Bescheinigung” from the “Ausländerbehörder” that I am entitled to stay in Germany in the future before I am proved to be eligible to get the “Arbeitslosgeld”. I don’t think such an “Abschiebungsandrohung” will be treated as such a “Bescheinigung” by the “Arbeitsamt” that I am entitled to stay in Germany in the next period of time.

2. Was could be “besonderen Härtefällen(major difficulties)”? It would be grateful if you could lists some reasons.
3. My husband is still studying in a university. He will be apply for GC soon after he finishes the study. He has found an employer already. I don’t know if my “Aufenthaltstitel” be changed into wife of GC, am I entitled to enjoy the “Arbeitslosgeld” then? Am I then entitled to work directly? Do I also have to wait for 1 year as other wives of GC do? For your information, By the end of this year, I will then have 4 years of “Aufenthalt” in Germany. The first two years for Studium and last two years “befristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis”. I really need to know my rights.
4. Thanks for your suggestion to find reasons as “heimatlose Ausländer”. I have my home and my country. I love them very much. Therefore I will not prove that I am “heimatlose”. All what I do to try to stay here in Germany temporarily is just a part of my career, personal and family plan. And I will see that my home country being better and better in the economy. I wish that in one day that everybody would like to come to my home country. My country people would warmly welcome you all at that time. And I don’t think it takes longer until that day comes because facts show tendencies already. It is any how grateful that you think about my case so thoroughly.

I am looking forward to hearing from you soon. I really know too little about my rights in Germany.

lol i will answer later on today. need firstly finish my work

“1. I find the following two sentences are contradictary. I don’t know how to behave it rightly.
a) “according to 42.1.3.0.4 AuslG-VwV I have a duty to leave the country…”
b) according to “42.1.8” Soweit die Ausreisepflicht nicht auf einem Verwaltungsakt beruht, ist der Ausländer auf die Ausreisepflicht hinzuweisen…””

No they are not. 42.1.3.0.4 tells that in case when your residence permit is not valid any more because the timeframe (on which it was issued) is over and you did not apply for its prolongation in time, your duty to leave the country arises not from any administrative act. There are other cases when such duty can arise as a result of a certain administrative act – for example, when your residence permit is cancelled for some reason. Now, 42.1.8 tells that if your duty to leave the country does not arise from any administrative act, it must be pointed out to you that you have a duty to leave a country – through sending you an administrative act with a threat of a deportation in case you do not leave the country yourself before a specified date. This is normal practice in german legal system – to give people a last reminder and a last chance to meet their responsibilities before they will be pursued by the law - just in case they forgot something or did not calculate everything correctly. Main difference from the legal system in the U.S. I would say – there nobody really cares *lol*

“I have even tried to talk to the Ausländerbehörder during my last conversation with him, that it is not practical for me to work until 18:00 on my last work day and have only 6 hours to pack all my things and leave Germany before 24:00 hour because otherwise I am not legal to stay in Germany after 24:00 hour then. This Ausländerbehörder told me that I should arrange my things using my holidays (Urlaub) in advance to achieve this.”

BUrlG § 8 Erwerbstätigkeit während des Urlaubs

Während des Urlaubs darf der Arbeitnehmer keine dem Urlaubszweck widersprechende Erwerbstätigkeit leisten.

It may be pointed out that packing things, terminating contracts, selling furniture and so on represents itself an occupation which is equivalent to a full-time job and therefore is contradictory to a purpose of a vacation. Moreover, there is a Constitution which tells that you should not be discriminated just because you belong to a certain group of people:

GG Art 3

(3) Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiösen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden.

It may be pointed out that you are discriminated when you must work during vacation when other people can enjoy theirs.

There is also another possibility – to take your whole vacation a way before your residence permit expires, then tell him that you decided to do that because of reasons mentioned above and now have no time to make all arrangements because you have to work *lol*

“To tell you the truth, I feel very bad to be treated like this after my knowledge being used by this country and being driven away within 6 hours without being considered of any difficulties in arranging the personal effects. The Ausländerbehörder told me that arrangement of the personal effects is not the reason to extend my resident permit.”

Just be more clever and then you will not have the reasons to feel yourself bad. What did you expect him to do? He knows very well that in case when you do not leave the country before your residence permit expires, he is going to have lots of additional job. Of course he does not want to have that additional job *lol*

“In this case, I feel it difficult to do as you suggested: do not tell this to your local immigration office … before their decision will reach you.”

Well then I can tell you what can be different in your case. If you speak with him no more about this matter, he will think that you have believed him and will forget about this matter. Then when your residence permit expires, he will be automatically notified that you did not leave the country – will understand his mistake and do his additional job. It will give you some additional time *lol*

Now, when you continue these conversations with him and start explaining him how it is not right for Germany to treat you like this, he will understand that you might turn out to be a problematic case. Therefore he will write himself a note and will check in one month before expiration date of your residence permit whether you have submitted an application for prolongation of residence permit – if not, he will send you an administrative act with a threat of deportation before your residence permit expires – with a term ending just with expiration of your residence permit. The same thing he will do in case when you submit an unreasonable application for prolongation of your residence permit – but then you will get such administrative act together with a refusal of your application. And then it will be your problem to chase him with attorneys, etc.

Do not tell officials about your existence when you do not have a clear right to stay in Germany! Let them themselves find you – sometimes they accomplish such a task too late. No system is perfect …

“I don’t think such an “Abschiebungsandrohung” will be treated as such a “Bescheinigung” by the “Arbeitsamt” that I am entitled to stay in Germany in the next period of time.”

For employment office, it does not really matter. They do not want to have additional job as well and check every week whether you are still here or have left the country and continue to get an unemployment benefit while living in your home country. Therefore they want to know in advance till which date you are allowed to remain in Germany – just in order to exclude a possibility that you continue to receive an unemployment benefit and did not inform them about your departure because you were deported and were unable to do so – for in such case they will not be able to claim it back. And they need to have a written paper from immigration office which they can present to their senior as an excuse in case when you received an unemployment benefit unlawfully as a result of earlier deportation and this fact has become known to other officials. The administrative act with a threat of deportation should suffice for such purpose. If not, you can make a claim vs. them even from your home country *lol*

“2. Was could be “besonderen Härtefällen(major difficulties)”? It would be grateful if you could lists some reasons.”

For example, you are pregnant and should give a birth to a child in a couple of weeks. Or the child was just born. Or you are sick and the sickness is such that you have to stay in a hospital. Or you have debts which you have no hopes to repay because salaries in your home country are much-much less than in Germany. Or you have a legal dispute which clearly requires your presence here because it can not be viewed without you (for example, you have an invitation as a witness). Or you have lost your passport and it takes you couple of months to get a new one from your embassy. Many reasons can be found when you think about it *lol*

“The first two years for Studium and last two years “befristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis”.”

Hmm … I would say, good done! Normally they do not prolong an “Aufenthaltsbewilligung” and require people to leave the country and reapply for a new entry visa.

“I don’t know if my “Aufenthaltstitel” be changed into wife of GC, am I entitled to enjoy the “Arbeitslosgeld” then? Am I then entitled to work directly? Do I also have to wait for 1 year as other wives of GC do?”

Firstly you can have problems when you try to change your residence permit into wife of GC because of this:

AuslG § 18 Ehegattennachzug

(1) Dem Ehegatten eines Ausländers ist nach Maßgabe des § 17 eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn der Ausländer
…
3. eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt, die Ehe schon im Zeitpunkt der Einreise des Ausländers bestanden hat und von diesem bei der erstmaligen Beantragung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis angegeben worden ist.

just because your marriage happened after your husband has entered Germany. There are many prescriptions in regulations of officials here, which tell them when the requirement to be married before entry in Germany is not necessary or can be not necessary, it’s a long-long story to list them all here *lol* When official will have problems with changing your residence permit, just point him to the Constitution:

GG Art 6

(1) Ehe und Familie stehen unter dem besonderen Schutze der staatlichen Ordnung.

But when you get your residence permit changed into wife of GC without leaving Germany and applying for a new entry visa (and I do not recommend you to do so even if officials will say you that’s an only way – they do not care about you, just about their problems, and they have problems any time when something is not clearly prescribed in their instructions; and it’s a lot easier to refuse issuing of an entry visa than to refuse issuing of a residence permit), you will not have to wait for 1 year as other wives of GC do because of this:

ArGV § 3 Wartezeit

Die Erteilung einer Arbeitserlaubnis für eine erstmalige Beschäftigung wird für Ausländer, die
…
2. als Ehegatten, Lebenspartner oder Kinder eines Ausländers eine befristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung besitzen,

davon abhängig gemacht, dass sich der Antragsteller unmittelbar vor der Beantragung ein Jahr erlaubt oder geduldet im Inland aufgehalten hat (Wartezeit).

As you have already lived in Germany for more than one year, it will remain so before you make an application for a work permit. However, you should understand that your application can be refused if there is an unemployed german who fits? Regarding unlimited work permit it remains the same: six years of total residence or two years of residence as a wife – whatever comes first.

Now, as you can apply for a new work permit once you have a residence permit of GC wife, of course you are eligible for an unemployment benefit.

"And I will see that my home country being better and better in the economy. I wish that in one day that everybody would like to come to my home country. My country people would warmly welcome you all at that time."

Vietnam, Thailand, that area I guess? No, no need to answer. Here is list of countries (probably not full, no time to check, sorry), citizens of which have some advantages before citizens from other countries. They are also not equal – citizens of some countries from this list have more advantages, others less, some have specific advantages which others do not have. it's always better if your home country is in such a list - you are treated better by officials in immigration offices, for they know then that you have more possibilities to return them a favour (that is -problems) *lol*

Andorra
Argentinien
Australien
sowie Kokosinseln,
Norfolkinseln,
Weihnachtsinsel
Belgien
Bolivien
Brasilien
Brunei
Chile
Costa Rica
Dänemark
Ecuador
El Salvador
Estland
Finnland
Frankreich
einschließlich Französisch-Guayana,
Französisch-Polynesien,
Guadeloupe,
Martinique,
Neukaledonien, Reunion,
St. Pierre und Miquelon
Ghana
Griechenland
Guatemala
Honduras
Irland
Island
Israel
Italien
Japan
Kanada
Kolumbien
Korea (Republik Korea)
Kroatien
Lettland
Litauen
Luxemburg
Malaysia
Malta
Mexiko
Monaco
Neuseeland
einschließlich Cookinseln,
Niue, Tokelau
Nicaragua
Niederlande
einschließlich Niederländische Antillen und Aruba
Norwegen
Österreich
Panama
Paraguay
Philippinen
Polen
Portugal
einschließlich Macau
San Marino
Schweden
Schweiz und Liechtenstein
Singapur
Slowakische Republik
Slowenien
Spanien
einschließlich Spanische Hoheitsgebiete in Nordafrika
(mit Ceuta, Melilla)
Thailand
Tschad
Tschechische Republik
Türkei
Ungarn
Uruguay
Venezuela
Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika
einschließlich Amerikanische Jungferninseln,
Amerikanisch-Samoa,
Guam,
Puerto Rico
Vereinigtes Königreich Großbritannien und Nordirland
sowie Kanalinseln, Insel Man und Bermuda
Zypern

hi, Trusday, it is really new to me that I could stay in Germany although the resident permit expires until the Behörder sends me an "Androhung". I thought I might be put into jail or be given a penalty at the airportcheck(my passport would be checked together with the ticket, oder?) if I get out of Germany after the expiration date.

Your quote regarding the "Erwerbstätigkeit während des Urlaubs" and " GG Art 3" is fantastic. This is exactly what I need.

I got married before I came to Germany. In this case, it might be easier for me to apply for a resident permit as a wife of GC, right?

After two years of resident as wife of GC(no matter if I work or not), I am entitled to have unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis. On the unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis, there should be no name of specified employer mentioned on my Aufenthaltstitel. That means I could work for any employer.

Are my understandings correct?

Hi moon,

my Wife got a Arbeitsberechtigung. This is unbefristet, unbeschrenckt and unbegrentzt. There is no company name on it (i.e. unbeschrenckt). Unbefristet means that this is for ever and Unbegrentzt means that it’s not depend from a Bundesland.
I wonder if we GCs can get such a Arbeitsberechtigung.

Now I would like to ask you smth Trusday. I saw the pertinent answers regarding this topic.

Trusday, do you know why Arbeitsamt and Ausländeramt are like 2 different worlds? In many situations they are not syncronized at all.

For example, if you have a Arbeitsberechtigung and a limited Aufenthaltsgenehmigung, which let's say expires after 5 years of staying here. In this case you have the right to work here anything, unlimited etc, but you don't have the right to stay...
In this case should Ausländeramt give you an extension of the Aufenthaltsgenehmigung or not?

They say you have to leave Germany even if you have a Arbeitsberechtigung and you lived here for 5 years. Regarding AuslG § 24 you should get a Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis, right?

If this is correct I wonder why are they lying us? Do we really have to resolve any communication with this Behörden with an attorney?

In the conditions mentioned above, if the wife gets a Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis, then we the CGs should get also a extension or a new Aufenthaltserlaubnis, like it says in AuslG § 17 Familiennachzug zu Ausländern.

Trusday, perhaps you can comment my presumptions and bring here more light in this chaos.
Thanks,

mac

“I thought I might be put into jail or be given a penalty at the airportcheck(my passport would be checked together with the ticket, oder?) if I get out of Germany after the expiration date.”

You can be put in jail only by the judge’s decision. Local immigration office by the law can ask a judge for such decision only in certain cases – for example, when you are a criminal or you are making a revolution or when you did not leave the country till the date specified in the “threat of deportation”-letter and it is decided that you must be deported and the deportation will take place not later than in three months. “Threat of deportation”-letter is no reason for a jail. However, it should be understood that people are not perfect and can make mistakes – officials in immigration offices are not different from other people here. I know cases when they made completely different things from what is prescribed by the laws.

By the law, you can not be given a penalty at the airportcheck if you leave the country yourself after getting “threat of deportation”-letter. However, I must tell that if you are deported, you get a ban on residence in Germany – temporary or permanent one. Also you need to keep in mind that request for entry visa can be declined without any reasons; and even if you get an entry visa it can be cancelled on the border. That’s why I tell that you should not listen if officials tell you that you need to go home and apply for a new entry visa when you want to change your status – it is possible to file a claim to the court of law when a residence permit is not given to you but no claim is possible when you are refused an issue of entry visa.

But again, foreigner usually is given problems only when he/she is afraid of officials and can not defend himself/herself. As a good example I can tell you that I do not have a passport from September 2002, officials know about that and can make nothing. Moreover, I lost my first job in Germany after ten months and did not have any job for nine months, received social aid, officials knew that and were not able to do anything as well *lol*

“I got married before I came to Germany. In this case, it might be easier for me to apply for a resident permit as a wife of GC, right?”

It does not matter. Important is when your husband has entered Germany after your marriage. If it is so, immigration office can not refuse your request for a residence permit as a wife of GC, otherwise it’s up to them to decide.

“After two years of resident as wife of GC(no matter if I work or not), I am entitled to have unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis. On the unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis, there should be no name of specified employer mentioned on my Aufenthaltstitel. That means I could work for any employer.”

Work permit and residence permit are different things. After two years of residence as a wife of GC you are entitled to get an unlimited work permit. That means you can work then for any employer. However, local immigration office still can specify name of employer in your residence permit – which would mean that you will have to change your residence permit every time when you change a workplace. That’s how they earn money – every time you change your residence permit you have to pay a fee for it *lol*

“I wonder if we GCs can get such a Arbeitsberechtigung.”

After six years of residence in Germany you can apply for it. Or after five years of work in Germany, when you can prove it that IT-AAV does not limit your residence in time, which is not going to be easy. However, it is possible to say that this phrase from IT-AAV:

(2) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis wird für die Dauer der Beschäftigung, längstens für fünf Jahre erteilt oder verlängert.

does not limit your residence in time, because it says that your residence permit can be issued or prolonged max. for five years time. Which is possible to understand so: can be issued for five years and then prolonged for five more years *lol*

“Trusday, do you know why Arbeitsamt and Ausländeramt are like 2 different worlds? In many situations they are not syncronized at all.”

They are not two different worlds, rather two different barriers on the way of foreigners. So even when one falls, it does not necesseraly means that the other will fall as well.

“In this case should Ausländeramt give you an extension of the Aufenthaltsgenehmigung or not?”

Presense of valid unlimited work permit gives you possibility to apply for an unlimited residence permit after five years of residence in Germany, if you work (or get an unemployment benefit), can speak and understand German (! Here I must say that if officials would like to prove it that you do not understand German, it will be really difficult for you to understand it. I myself heard once how a chef in immigration office gave corresponding orders *lol*), have a flat and is not a criminal or revolutionary. However, it also should be noted that unlimited work permit is not necesseraly unlimited in time. If officials issued your wife an unlimited work permit without specifying a time limit – she should be happy, because she has a right to apply for an unlimited residence permit if she will have a workplace and can prove that she understands German *lol*

“If this is correct I wonder why are they lying us? Do we really have to resolve any communication with this Behörden with an attorney?”

If the situation with unemployment rate will not become better, I would say that it should be understood when any request for prolongation of residence permit results in legal dispute. Communities have problems, officials in immigration offices work for communities, not for foreigners.

“In the conditions mentioned above, if the wife gets a Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis, then we the CGs should get also a extension or a new Aufenthaltserlaubnis, like it says in AuslG § 17 Familiennachzug zu Ausländern.”

True. I will say more – once your wife gets an unlimited residence permit, you can also apply for one accordingly to §25 Abs.1 AuslG *lol* ;)

hello, i have a questions, i was adopted here by my german stepfather when i was 20 yrs. old, got my new name now and i am already included in the familienbuch, 1) is this already enough for me to at least receive a permit here to stay and work? i am also aware that i was adopted as an adult and not entitled for automatic german passport unlike my sister who is now a german by virtue of adoption also when she was 5 years old.
authority here is still insisting that my adoption though valid will not help me to get a permit here to work and stay, 2) for what i can use then this adoption? would appreciate it very much if somebody can give me an answers to my questions. i am now here in germany as a visitor through the invitation of my brother in law.

thank you

Trusday, you told me "you should not listen if officials tell you that you need to go home and apply for a new entry visa when you want to change your status – it is possible to file a claim to the court of law when a residence permit is not given to you but no claim is possible when you are refused an issue of entry visa." which I think that you are absolutely correct. But I don't know what kind of barriers the Behörders would give us even if we showed them the GG Art ... that the family and Ehe are to be protected which they know already.

How could we state the difficulties more strongly with law words? For your info, my husband and I got married before we entered Germany. The information has already been given to the Ausländerbehorder at the application stage for the first entry into Germany although we don't have the same entry date.

"For your info, my husband and I got married before we entered Germany. The information has already been given to the Ausländerbehorder at the application stage for the first entry into Germany although we don't have the same entry date."

Then you have a right for a residence permit accordingly to §18 Abs.1 Satz 1 Nr.3 AuslG as soon as your husband gets an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis", whether in boundaries of GC regulation or some other regulation, does not matter here.

AuslG § 18 Ehegattennachzug
(1) Dem Ehegatten eines Ausländers ist nach Maßgabe des § 17 eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn der Ausländer
...
3. eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis besitzt, die Ehe schon im Zeitpunkt der Einreise des Ausländers bestanden hat und von diesem bei der erstmaligen Beantragung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis angegeben worden ist.

Of course, your husband needs to write that he is married when he applies for "Aufenthaltserlaubnis", but i guess there will not be any problem with that.

Basically they can not refuse to change your residence permit. If they do - Widerspruch - Klage beim zuständigen Verwaltungsgericht. The thing is so obvious that i would say that even lawyer is hardly needed here *lol*

"authority here is still insisting that my adoption though valid will not help me to get a permit here to work and stay,"

AuslG § 23 Ausländische Familienangehörige Deutscher
(1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis ist nach Maßgabe des § 17 Abs. 1
...
2. dem ausländischen minderjährigen ledigen Kind eines Deutschen,

zu erteilen, wenn der Deutsche seinen gewöhnlichen Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet hat.

20 years can hardly be considered as an underage, or *lol*?

AuslG-VwV 23.1.2 ... Das Kind darf weder verheiratet noch geschieden sein. Es darf im Zeitpunkt der Antragstellung
das 18. Lebensjahr noch nicht vollendet haben. ...

Yup, it's as i told. Your sister obviously has got a german citizenship accordingly to §6 StAG:

StAG § 6
Mit der nach den deutschen Gesetzen wirksamen Annahme als Kind durch einen Deutschen erwirbt das Kind, das im Zeitpunkt des Annahmeantrags das achtzehnte Lebensjahr noch nicht vollendet hat, die Staatsangehörigkeit. Der Erwerb der Staatsangehörigkeit erstreckt sich auf die Abkömmlinge des Kindes.

As you can see, it's up to 18 years here as well. So basically officials are right when they tell that you do not have a right for a residence permit. But again, it does not mean that they can not issue you a residence permit - but you need to prove them that it will result in big problems for you and your family when you do not obtain one *lol* ;)

Hello trusday
maraming salamat, (thank you very much) for your reply, at least now when i decide to ask for a lawyer i have now an idea what to ask him with regards to my case.
have anice day and thank you again for the time spent.

You are great, Trusday. Thanks a lot. By the way, are you a lawyer?

Hello trusday!

Thanks for your replies.
Can you please summarize one or more solutions that can be applied for GCs in order to receive an extension after these 5 years of the Arbeitsgenehmigung and Aufenthaltsgenehmigung?
How do you see our chances to get such extensions?
This will be great!

Thanks,

mac