Hi Friends,

I am in a state of confusion and am looking forward for your responses. Your suggestions will surely help me.

I am in Germany from last 3+ years. I find germany to be a good place except the pressure of learning german and not so ambitious culture here. You will find that many times, many things depend on luck and not on your capabilities or qualifications. This had made me think many times, if Germany is the best place to settle down or to migrate to some other place. Many lately settelled people have told me that they are not happy by the way their children are growing here. Without any ambitions and directions.

Hence, I want to finalize about my future to settle in any of these (Australia, Canada, UK or Germany) countries. US is also one option but I don't want to opt for it as it also offers many disadvantages.

It will really be good if you all can write your or your known person's experiences or any other related information about these countries. For eg. job market, pay packages, social security system, people, any other benefits.....

:-) Some information I can contribute is that in Germany we get 30 days of urlaub and somewhere even 40 days (which is cool). In Australia its 20 days and in canada its 10 days. In Australia you can become a Citizen after 2 years of immigration and after 3 years in Canada. Australian PR u get within 1.5 years, Canadian can exceed 3 years and German hopefully after completion of 5 years. In my case around 2 years left.

Lets see what you all have to say on this topic. I am very keen to know about canada and the opportunities there for IT professionals.

Have fun
GM

It is hard to say.
In US people are warmer and more friendly.
You get much more money in US but you have to work more.

Bad things in US are:
less Urlaub,
more work,
awful schools,
no social security
to much crime

all together i like Germany better.
But that is maybe because my Land is close to it.
I supose for someone from India, US is much better choice

Does the new immigration act mean that ex-green card can come back later and apply to become residence again? It seems that one of the main purposes is to attract highly qualified professional. Perhaps the conditions will improve in comming years, intead of the current 5 years, it may become something similar to those of Australia and Canada. Any view?

J.

Hello All,

i prefer Australia. It's somehow between Europe and U.S.
the working enviroment is not so hard as in U.S, but it is not so slow as in Europe.
Land and House is also not so expensive like in Europe.
Especially if you are living in suburb.
Winter is not also very cold.
Minus point could be that the money you get is not as much as in Europe or in U.S, but it is better than in Singapore.
Experience you got here should be appreciated you can sell it.

Let's share some views.

Hi All,
Nobody talks about UK Is it that bad in Uk..A friend of mine said me that as many Indians live there, life in UK is like in India (indian friends,restaurants,shops etc) and reg the money
1GBP = 1.8 USD = 1.4 € = 2.3 CAD = 2.5 AUD
I wonder why people think of other countries when the currency value here is high and however i dont know abt the salaries.
I would appreciate if someone experienced living in UK come forward to say abt it .

Regards,
kish

In my opinion,

Australia or singapore. If you want more savings singapore would be a better place than australia. But if you want a bit relaxed life australia would be better.

No body really even wanna talk about Canada, where PHD's drive Taxis for their livelyhood
Any other ideas abt it?

One of my friend got immigrated to canada. He told me that its not so easyto find a job in canada. some get it in 6 months and some even do not get it in 2 years. but one thing for sure is that canada is a beautiful country.

nobody here in this group commented good for canada. it seems to me that australia is a good option.

JimmyHans:
Does the new immigration act mean that ex-green card can come back later and apply to become residence again? Perhaps the conditions will improve in comming years, intead of the current 5 years, it may become something similar to those of Australia and Canada. Any view?
J.

Jimmy or Hans you are quite bad informed.
First if you go away from Germany, chances to come back are zero, since there is to much IT people here.
Second, if you are here with GC, you can stay forever.
Tomorow will Bundesrat accept Verordnung that says that GC is valid forever. Not with that words, but that is the meaning.

everuthing is shit!
I have try for Canda....they are searching a milk from bird an a lot of money to immigrate.
No mater what you are and how good you are.
They are using popaganda to force the idiots to make the applications (and cost so lot of money - believe me) and at the end...kick off!
Australia - same shit!
I have make an qualification assessement and this and that and IELTS and I donot know what else...even I get an SIR (sonsor immigration request) from Victoran goverment...and at the end I was waiting for signature from Immigations service that I have SIR visa...(well I am still waiting)
New Zealand - I was wanting to make a historical photo and giv in LUVR in France museum (ME AND THE IMMIGRATION PAPERS for New Zealan)
Next one...UK!????
I was truing to get some informations.....Gut Goad...they are thinking that nothing is higher in the all world then one Britisch nose!
Peackcock! - But afcourse from mom queen palace!
So .... how I have get luck to come hier in Germany?!
Till know..I still get the voice ---- NACH % JAHREN MUSSEN ALLE AUSLANDER RAUS!
SIE MUSS RAUS!

I drik for it!

hi GM,
I have the same trouble as you do. I now already have the Autralian PR alone with my wife, we can go there any time we want. But one thing still dragging us is that the future perspect.

Indeed, if we stay here, we can hopefully stay as long as we want. However the culture and attitutes among people aren't so great. Not that the people are bad, its just not the same as other place we have been. We used to live in UK for a few years, there I met quite a few warm-hearted people.

On the other hand, I should admit that I didn't do much to integrate myself into the sociaty. I gave up learning the language as it seemed to be to hard and time consuming for me. When germans try to tell me a story, I can't laugh at all, I just don't get the point. The gap is too big (as a chinese).

I feel like there is only a few reasons that I should stay here, money wise, its better pay here than Australia. Environment is nice, plenty of water resource, etc...

From time to time, the idea of moving away, go back to asia, go to
Australia and such will jump out of my head....

Hi

EAST OR WEST
YOUR NATIVE IS THE BEST

Stay here, work efficiently, earn well, save and go back and settle in your homeland.

-Fred (India)

Hi yinshe,

Good to see your message and to know there is some else also who is having the same confusions like mine. May be we should be in touch to motivate ourselves to take the right decision. Also, I want to make chinese friends. My wife has some chinese friends.

Certain points you discussed:
1. Future Prospect
2. Attitude of people
3. Integrating ourselves
4. staying here

Future prospect:
In my opinion Australia offers a good future prospect. It has very low unemployment rate. Job opportunities are more than that in germany. Satandard of life is better than here. Salaries are also good. Future prospect also means future of our children. I don't see a good future for our children in germany. Many may oppose my opinion but this is my understanding of this culture and system. I don't have problem with culture. But lots of factors have to be considered. Have you noticed, here people spend too much time to study simple things and then also they do it wrong. They are simply not so efficient as they should be. The reason is the system here. It makes people lazy. Its good for us or should I say that if we have a permanent job then life is cool here. Go to office. Take kranken when not feeling well. Do little work. then take long urlaub. get little bit lazy. isn't it cool. but in the end u will find that you have stepped in quicksand. later it will be difficult to get out of it. Children born here will be part of it and for them life will be more difficult. On the other hand, I like this place too. Language problem is for us but will not be our children.

Attitude of people:
Everywhere, people are always like that. Some are good some are rude. Its our luck, whom we come across. When the economy is not good and people don't have job, they become rude. this is what's happening here in germany. i have full sympathy and i don't blame them for their rudness. i feel that in future it may get worse here, hence i am planning to prepare for emergency exit. i mean to keep something for back up. its good that you got your PR for australia. mine is still in process. Do you know that time period for moving to Australia after getting PR is 5 years. So meanwhile you can work here and collect money. Then start your new life with little luxury in Australia. Why not?

Integrating ourselves:
This is very necessary and we have to try. But we cannot do much except trying. We all are different its not so easy to integrate in new places. In my opinion. its easy to integrate in english speaking countries than in europe. Here, people want that you speak their language. This is upto some extent fair, but it requires time. We try to learn language, which takes time and during this period we face depressions and get demotivated. I have seen this with so many people. We are not able to integrate with people in office (if we get english speaking group then we are in luck). We don't understand their jokes and they dont understand ours. I don't know the solution. But I think for us to be able to integrate, it requires a big change in attitude of german people. They also need to have welcomming attitude for foreigners like us. We already have a burden of learning language and understanding the culture. They atleast need to help us in this. If not then I don't feel wasting time here. I myself have gone under lots of tensions and depressions here. and I don't see a great improvement for me in near or far future. But still I will give some more time to decide for my future. I have received positive answer for my canadian immigration but I am planning to cancel it.

staying here:
I agree with you. I also want to stay here for some reasons. Germany offers some benefits that are not anywhere else available. Biggest reason is the 30 days urlaub. I like this. But also I need to see what I am getting on other hand. If, I keep on feeling depressions and tensions due to the nature or attitude of people or if I see no career growth then I think I will try to adjust with 20 days leave :-)

Fred,
May be you are earning and saving a lot. But not many people. I feel UK is better to save and go back. Germany.... naaa.
Also, be careful, after working here for 5 years it wont be easy to adjust back in your homeland. Atleast, it applies to me.

Best Wishes
GM

When comes to money, Australia wont be better than here. May be comparable. I did my Master's in australia and lived there for some time. There too you have to pay heavy taxes. But it is a beautiful country.

But as Fred Said 'No where can be like Home'. Home is the best.

Asian (India)

Hi Asian,

In which field have you done your masters. Why had you not stayed there in Australia. Since you were there. You can may be tell more about that place. Where were you in Australia. How is the learning environment there. Do you find more enthusiasm in people in Australia or here. I have never been there, but want to know more. May be infromation from your experinece can be useful to many people planing to go there.

Regards,
GM

Hi Folks,

I was just flying over the text you people have put together. Some of you have been talking my feelings and experiences here. Its amazing how we as foreigners can have the same thoughts and feelings. I have been here since 2.5 years and still sometimes find it very hard to integrate with people . Apart from the fact that I speak a bit of German and am able to understand a good part of it, I sometimes feel so depressed and low that I start challenging every reason of my staying here. Is it worth it ? Only reason that stops is ofcourse you earn money and experience which could be later sold off.

AUSTRALIA - CANADA OR USA, the biggest advantage here should be the language factor. I agree and completely understand with other synergies that would come across in these countries when you would immigrate but Australia and USA should be better places atleast if we talk about backups. I have been thinking of this since weeks now to start and look for oppurtunities and ways to apply for VISA / Immigration to Australia and poosible a H1 visa to USA.

And if you have noticed I am quite ill-informed and dont have much knowledge about the procedures I have to go through.

It woould be great if you could share some info, as to how I could find relevant pieces of information. Please fill me in.

regards,
MZA

Hi GM
I did my Master's in Business Administration. I lived in Sydney and Melbourne. Both are very nice places and Learning environment is quite good. As i am quite new to germany, i cannot compare much things. But definitely the standard of life no where lesser than germany. Now Australian dollar has appreciated, economy and job market is good. The biggest advantage is the language and integration.

I dint stay there for no reasons, infact it had never struck me applying PR there. I lived in Singapore for few years and now in Germany. Here, i would stay not more than 1 year here.


Regards,

Oh Man !!

I've just checked the price for Australian Immg and its minimum AUD 1845 (1245 EURO) and thats a hell lot of money...

At least i found UK interesting as the cost is only 150 pounds and it is also near to germany, so that u can still live in germany until u get a job there or can even fly there to attend an interview..

And the next best is US h1 becoz people are ready to process for as low as USD 1500....

And one more thing IN US and UK if u have the luck and got a job then you need a special room to store your money...

what do you all say..

regards
Jackal.

@GM:

Thank you for your views. Is it possible to apply for Australian PR sitting here in Germany? Well, what I wrote about earning&saving was my wish. It doesnt mean I have a heavy bank balance ;-)

If you dont want to write here, you can write to me at
fredjeffry at hotmail dot com

@Asian:

Hope you can write about MBA in Australia? Is it costly as here in Germany? (6K to 30K Euro).

I think English speaking countries are best suited for Asians.

-Fred :-)

You all have spoken well.
It is amazing how our thoughts and feelings as regards integration is so similiar.
I've meet people(foreigners) whom have lived here for about 15years and most agreed that this place is not to settle but work and go !

The interesting thing is that most foreigners do not have that sense of belongingness living here but most; 10 yrs time would still be here and with the same feeling. :-) !

Different stroke for different folks. Those out want to come in, those in want to move out !
The impact of losing this sense of belongingness may not be much for some; especially those that have significant number of their fellow country folks around.
Take it or leave it. You would save more energy and be happier if you try less(for now) to become a german,unlike other Immigrant countries.It would be unfair for me not to recognize though; the tiny changes which the people here are begining to embrace in terms of having less xenophobia; I guess this is more visible in big cities.

Getting in may be easier, getting out more difficult..
Some may have been held hostage due to one thing or the other hence their persistence to live not just to exist here.

I was driving with a friend and in front of us was a poster "Work and live in Germany".
well, some would say it should have been "Work and work in Germany" !

Germany is a beautiful country is it ?

Hi Asian,

Thanks for your info.

I have one friend that worked in sydney for 2 years and returned back. When he was there, he never thought of applying for PR or so. Now he regrets and is planing to apply fresh for his immi from new delhi.

I have heard that Australian environment and culture can be considered somewhat mix of American and European culture. Social security and system can be compared with that of european and enviroment can be compared with that of american. People are more jolly and fun loving. I like germany too but as written before, i dont like the tensions that i got here for free :-) i mean unnecessary. Many of us discuss openly and many don't discuss. But I have felt that most of us have gone through some or the other kind of demotivating experiences. As ZZUser(MZA) has also mentioned in his message.

MZA:
you wrote: "Some of you have been talking my feelings and experiences here. Its amazing how we as foreigners can have the same thoughts and feelings."
Yes, after all we all are human beings, now in the same environment.

Like yinshe, you also wrote about stying here and knowing german. This is the tragedy. In my experience here, I have noticed, GC's who have not learned german, keeps on expecting that after they learn language, everything with them will get better. Learning german is not cat-walk. It needs dedication. Those, like you who struggled hard and learned german (in exchange of worsening their english:-) ) to a good extent also finds that not much have changed. Only our confidence has increased a little. But still nothing much has changed.

I think, for things to change, German attitude towards forigners has to change. As is said that they have to become a migrant country. I am sure, that will happen but will take quite long. I feel very happy when I see people like Detlef standing out for helping forigners. Many will see it as his business. But, he made this his business is still appreciable. Hats off to Detlf. I wish he gets success for his efforts.
There are many people here in germany who are very helpfull and I think because of these people, somewhere within us we have a little hope that its still not so bad here and things will change with us. I am sure this is not only my experience, but many of us must have met some nice german people.

But again, at end, i would say that its difficult to wait for ages for things to get better, like the last generation did. I know many people here. They are happy, enjoying pension but little bit sad when they see their children growing and moving towards their career without any direction. For us, above all, we will be having hard time when we reach our pension age.

But Folks, please don't get demotivated or aggresive or so with my messages and I welcome your comments. I get afraid when people start fighting back. Germany is a nice country. Those who have good jobs and nice people around, cannot get better than this anywhere in the world. For sure. Think about 30 days urlaub.

Gruß
GM

well said onye !!!

GM

well said onye !!!

i totally agree with this:
"You would save more energy and be happier if you try less(for now) to become a german"

GM

fred:
yes its possible to apply. i did it through on british agent. but it costs money as jackal had mentiond. infact he mentioned cost of embassy. Agent takes littlemore than this. but in my opinion, u wont regret later. thats what i did. i will regret or not, time will decide. i will drop you a mail.

mba is expensive in australia but for residents its little subsidised and i have heard its easy to get study loans. which can be easily returned later after study. But for sure, u get lots of options for upgrading yourself.

GM

@GM:

you said:
"But again, at end, i would say that its difficult to wait for ages for things to get better, like the last generation did. I know many people here. They are happy, enjoying pension but little bit sad when they see their children growing and moving towards their career without any direction. "

Are you from India, if so from South India like me? I am asking as this is how some known Indians settled here in Germany feel right now.

-Fred

GM No regrets ,

You will only do good to yourself. And did you also apply for UK or if not can you tell me good reason why not to apply for it. Becoz its better to know some things before applying for it

regards
Jackal.

Fred:
It will cost you definitely between 2000-2500 A$, but as GM said it is worth. I have not still not decided to take it, but i have an advantage that i have australian education and experience. So i hope i can get it whenever i want it. But it is not very difficult for others to get it. If you are from india or asia, i would say australia would be more suitable for you than here.
I dont know about the education in germany. But australian education is not very expensive and i enjoyed my curriculum in my master's. Early this year, i have got my professional Doctorate admission and because of my transfer to germany i had to give up it.

Thats nice to hear from you, Asian.

@ GM

Hi GM, can you provide me with some more information for Australian Immigration. I can surely google around but your input will possibly shorten my google trips. .

zubayr at web dot de is my address.

@ Fred
are you from Hyderabad ?


greetings
Zubair

Fred:
you are somewhat right but i am talking about south indian and as well as north indian families, also chinese and thai families, and also pakistani families. i know people from these place and they have given me the same feedback.

I felt, same feedback from americans and british families, even one australian.

I am from North India.

People here,who are living life of content here are the people who came here illigally. struggled a lot. married a german. opened a resturant. they are happy as they got return of their struggel.

Jackal:
Thanks. I will surely give feedback, if in case i decide to fly from here.
I don't prefer US or UK. US, yes u need room to store mony, but when u are out of job, it seems as if someone has removed the base of that money-room. I mean it all vanishes quickly. Hence, US is best, till you have job and till u don't work somewhere which is not liked by terrorists (in their words freedom fighters).
UK, also good for money but, I don't prefer, because after germany, when i talk of immigration, i mean setteling in a place where i get peace of mind and work that I enjoy. After all, we all have to leave all this one day. So, I don't want to spend all my energy and life collecting money and then to leave it one day. I prefer to do everything but not in extent. work a little. earn a little. spend some time with family. give some time to friends. and to have some time for myself to learn new things in this world.
If you want to do farming of money, US or UK is best. Germany is also not bad. If you want to relax, Newzealand is best. If you, want to earn a little and relax a little, then Australia or germany are best. Then where comes the difference? Where you feel comfortable and have good friends and most important, you can comminicate properly. Where you can understand others and make others understand what you want to communicate. Hence, Communication makes Germany less preferable for me.

For me important are:
1. Get satisfaction in work.
2. Have some free time
3. most important communicate.

Regards

No Zubair, further south. From the southernmost tip of India: Cape Comorin (or Kanyakumari)

-Fred

uhmm, interesting topic, I´m happy to see that I´m not alone ;-)

Please, share the information about Australia here, not in private E-mail. That information is useful for everybody.

Thanks,

Alex

Check out this site

http://www.workpermit.com

Fred

GM, thanks for your input

It would also be nice if you can specify the time take to get AU Immg and also after getting the approval how much time do we have to move to Australia (i mean can we still work in germany or some were and then go there) ..

Please give your opinions here itself and not in private emails. As no one is using there original names, it even doesnt harm them. As i am not really a jackal typing from the forest....

regards
Jackal.

ZZUser:
I would suggest that you should google. Because, that will give you proper understanding of the step which you are to take. From my side, I can suggest your my immigration agent. He is quite good and he offers money back guarantee, if for any reasons your immigration is rejected, considering that nothing is fake from your side.

I found him quite good because he simply does not file application until he is 100% sure. He troubled me a lot for arranging the right set of papers. I mean with perfection.

I think all of us in Germany on GC want is career and money so as long as we are enjoying the benefits and job nothing to worry. For me atleast it really doesn't matter where in these 4 countries I live in because almost everywhere it is the same. The language barrier in Germany is only a concern for us when we want to completely immigrate otherwise to just live for few or even another 5 to 6 years you just need to learn to communicate it enough. If you are having trouble with job then the next best option would be UK and also there is something called holiday work permit in UK and it is easy to get for those coming from common wealth countries as a temporary solution and wit this permit you can do any kind of job :-)

For me atleast Canada is the worst option even though it is very easy to get and then Australia would be an ok option as well with luck in your hand you could find a job there.

The best thing would be if you are coming from countries like China or India try your best to work outside in any of these countries and build up your savings and then flee to your respective countries that is the right way to have a secured and happy life where the future of this world lies on the developments taking place in developing countries like India and China.

Germany is currently in a very bad economic state so do not expect so much from the immigration. as the deadlines are approaching wait for another 1 or 2 years and then decide this would be my suggestion.

regards,
Nitin

"as the deadlines are approaching wait for another 1 or 2 years and then decide this would be my suggestion", could be a bad suggestion for people like me who have 10 months left, don't you think?

D.

@Nobody :

I understand you are hyper concerned about your future as regards more stay permit(or PR);others don't feel less !
I quite understand the feeling especially if you are with family though.Anyway....

In situation like this you just have to be as optimistic as you can get and likewise pessimistic; that would buttress your power to plan[Power to plan is power to build].And do not forget patience.
In a "secretive" system like this you need lots of it.
Please, german audience should not take this word "Secretive" seriously (:-)) !

Though, I'm an optimist ; the persimist can prove me wrong.
This issue with GC & PR is going to be a case of much ado about nothing.Though they may try to excessively moderate people that would get it by using the tool of Language know-how but I'm sure some one like Nobody with his vast(from outsider's view point)
knowledge of the Germanaic system would defy the blockade by sailing straight through it. (:-)) !

I would prefer to do all that is necessary, live a day at a time and keep me fingers crossed. Period.

Anyway...

The topic is Germany & Others which is most favourable for immigration with peace of mind (peace of mind very important do not forget). Right ? Ride On folks !

Cheers.

Hi fellows,

one day you don't come to this forum and then next day you find it full of nice discussion.

A little feed from me as well. Like all of you guys I am also in the same state of mind and I have also done some discussions on this very same topic with some of my friends living here.
Just last week along with some friends I met with a Dr.(PHd) from our sub continent, who has studied here and is living here for the last 33 years. He is well set with a nice govt. job and a lot of links.
After some carefull exchanges he opened up and said the truth is, even I am not integrated here fully and now I am settling my kids in UK. This gave us quite a big shock and made us think and plan even harder to try to get out of here and go to UK or other places.

Although my job here is quite good and I would like to keep it (along with 30 working days urlaub ) but all the other things are on the -ve side. Still at least I do have 1.5 years to decide and act until my 5 years of GC and uncertainity are over.
Regards,

"as the deadlines are approaching wait for another 1 or 2 years and then decide this would be my suggestion", could be a bad suggestion for people like me who have 10 months left, don't you think?

@NoBody

hey, I did not mean exactly 1 year. I know some of you there have only 10 months. To be precise who ever can stay that period wait n see the immigration is coming r not in 1 or 2 years and then decide to pack your bags. Of course besides all this you are responsible for planB(immigration application to other countries). You see instead of just leaving the country now before 10 months your GC expires why don't you wait for the last minute and have the planB ready. You got what I am saying now?

yeah nreddy, I know what you mean, but we're working on Plan B, even if we really don't want to leave Germany at all.

D.

"People here,who are living life of content here are the people who came here illegally. struggled a lot. married a german. opened a restaurant. they are happy as they got return of their struggel."

HAHAHAHAHA.

Attention: Worst case scenario coming.

Well, in the worst case a legal immigrant not only ends up saying good bye to half of his salary, paying taxes for the car and on the oil which he needs in order to go to work, then the Value Added Tax on every product he buys, then paying absurde high car insurance rates for the first five years, and paying rent to finance somebody's altersvorsorge, spending his free time to learn their complex language and rules, repeating part of his life (like getting a driver's license and maybe studying for a german test), to loose the status he had in his home country, loose contact to his friends and spending years alone, and then keep hearing that he should get used to the idea that he will never get a pension because the pension system is a ticking time bomb. Not to mention the feeling of disconectedness and in some cases of plain rejection.

-------
I don't think that anyone here has to worry about what will happen after the five years, pension payments or not, as long as he has a job, he has nothing to worry about, since the kommunen can not afford to loose a tax payer ... just look at the numbers! They would on the other hand, be more than pleased to get rid of someone who is unemployed and receiving unemployment help, but this is valid for almost every country I know (some countries have no unemployment insurance, so they don't care as much).

Dear All,

I think its an intersting thread and I would like to know the opinions of all the significant members after almost a decade of living in Germany?

Regards.
Raj++