Perhaps some of u remember me:-)so my status is now married:-) and i am currently in India.I have applied for spouse visa on the last week of Oct2005.As i am only married on the third week of oct 2005, its very hard for both of us to stay apart.My wife is german and she is back in Germany now.she is having a job there and we have completed all the formalities that are required by german embassy in india.Please help me if there is any way or possiblity by which i can speedup my visa processing????is this the right way if i call the embassy every week and ask for my status?Can someone explain me,what is the exact process(step by step) adopted by german embassy in india for granting spouse visa?
She is expecting me to be with her on Christmas..

"She is expecting me to be with her on Christmas.."

sure...
in India

@DvD

Come on...lets not be sarcastic.

The rate german gals going gaga over Bollywood, wouldn't surprise me if India being favorite hubby-markt for chicks :-)

@deathinc

So..love hath finally overcome all the obstacles.

Pleased to know that finally you made slight progress in your case. Calling them up everyday will simply piss them off, so dont do it.

In your case they normally hire a private detective and wait for his report. The following things are chekced:

-that you married her out of love, not for getting yourself inside germany and then ditch her.

-if you have paid money to her to get married to you (scheinehe).

-if the income of both partner suffice for livelihood and you are no burden to german social system.

U told that they will hire a detective,i want to know will they hier in india or in germany?and ur third point about income so rightnow i dont have any job in G but she is earning enough for both of us.How will he investigate the things will he check our bank accounts or what?or will he only talk to us and how he will make any decision??we have very strange situation because we never meet eachother befor and the day she arrived in india,she got converted and after 2 days we got married and on the 5th day we applied for visa(we did it all in hurry because she has only 10 days holidays)and earlier this year my visa is denied 3times.so all this things make them in suspesion and can cause in delaying??

"we have very strange situation because we never meet eachother befor and the day she arrived in india,she got converted and after 2 days we got married"
"earlier this year my visa is denied 3times"

Sorry man.. that smells terribly "scheinehe".. Do you guys have also a big age gap ? (say 20 or more)
Maybe it is love at first sight but you will have hard time to convince the officials. "Normal" people do not take their marriage decisions in 2 days.

Regards,

Lacrima

This smells like a rotten egg to me! But you do not need to worry because in Germany everything works according to law so as far as you did not involve in a marriage scandal, it's ok. They will show you way towards your destiny. By the way your case of 2 days marriage is quiet common here in Germany. I don't understand, why some people think it is uncommon and pathetic? you also can marry a 100 year old woman, no problem!!! One thing is for sure you are a rare species in India because this country is known to have good traditional values when it comes to marriage except for some exceptional case like yours. I think you do fit to a more open culture to the likes of Germany. Get going, if not this winter atleast next Christmas you will be blessed by weihnachtsmann.

@deathinc

Don't let yourself be discouraged by others. I believe your undying love for this girl is the only motivation for your being determined going to Germany. Not many people would do such a big sacrifice in the name of love. I just hope that the Visa Officer would also feel the same.

"One thing is for sure you are a rare species in India because this country is known to have good traditional values when it comes to marriage except for some exceptional case like yours."

which are the GOOD traditional values in Indian marriages - Arranged marriages ????

"Don't let yourself be discouraged by others"

Yep.. don't let yourself be discouraged by others, having been denied already 3 times for the visa application gives you already the best perspectives..

@krieger

"which are the GOOD traditional values in Indian marriages - Arranged marriages ????"

I'm quite interested to know, what do you know much about traditional values in indian marriages/culture???

If you think only "Arranged marriages", i only can say, that is not right, but unfortunatly indian traditional things donot have big books to read about traditions like others.

Do you have any information that Mr. Deathinc did have arranged marriage?

Please don't take my questions arrogant, i'm very curious (as always) to know the things that how different country/cultural people think of others.

which are the GOOD traditional values in Indian marriages - Arranged marriages ????

Both arranged and love marriages are conducted in traditional way. If you want to know, how they are conducted then google it to find out resources. Don't drag your feet on this too much.

hey guys, pardon my asking but
ARE YOU REALLY DEFENDING ARRANGED MARRIAGES!!!

and only by claming that it is tradition.
slavery was also tradition. will you defend slavery too???

BTW arranged marriages are nothing but slavery!!!

@Dvd

"ARE YOU REALLY DEFENDING ARRANGED MARRIAGES!!!"

I did not see anyone defending arranged marriages, how did you get to this conclusion?

It was just because someone wanted or tried to create a link between the tradition with arranged marriages, that was not properly thought.

"and only by claming that it is tradition.
slavery was also tradition. will you defend slavery too???"

I don't think someone would do that, but you know world with soo many brains ;) with different thoughts you never know.

"BTW arranged marriages are nothing but slavery!!!"

I think you are near to mejority of people opinion.

@babloo

I completely agree with DvD, arranged marriages are a thing of past now. I prefer the european way, where you get to try the product before buying it. You can anytime reject the product if you are not satisfied with it, or if you meanwhile find a better product. No question asked.

Oh the hell! I am taking about marriages held in traditional way it can be either arranged or love marriage. Look at the stats before shrugging off your shoulders. Arranged marriages were the most stable marriages held in India til today and 90% of them were successful but you should know that the new generation kids are slightly tilted towards their thinking and trying to come out of their boundaries so they prefer love and marry but in the end the marriages are conducted traditionally. Did you get into your head now?

DvD, how the heck, did you decide arranged marriages are part of slavery? When you look into television or newspapers probably you found thousands of stories but all of them are complied from poor societies. On average all the brides think it is a pride to be a housewife as long as there is enough money to run a family and the bridegroom takes care of outside matters. This is called mutual understanding. India has rich traditional values and therfore you will need many generations to learn what they meant. Understood???? as I said don't drag too much into this matter because this is a vast topic to debate on.

@babloo
every relationship between two persons runs perfectly wenn one person has no right to say anything.
that still does not mean that everything would run perfectly if both persons would have equal rights.
Alles klar???

nicht klar??? who is talking about rights here. what rights are you talking about?

bablo:
"nicht klar??? who is talking about rights here. what rights are you talking about?"


got your point. she is not even aloud to speak about her rights.
is she aloud to speak at all?
or maybe to write down what she wants to say?

DvD, I suggest you to take rest.

what the fuck u r talkin about i need the way to speed up my visa process is she can do anything from germany oder so??or is there anyother thing i can do expect to call them(embassy) on fone??also she is 25, im 26. its a arrange marriage with a europian girl in a traditional way....

Oh my dear! you are demanding people. When someone cannot answer your question that doesn't mean that they cannot discuss on this topic. In addition to that you are being rude and vulgar. I don't see if someone is willing to read on this topic anymore.

Please try to track your application from here in Germany.You can also hire a lawyer in germany if it gets delayed(officially 4 -6 weeks) is normal,.

Now @ DVD,

I consider ou a very intelligent man with logics.
But logic also depends on the information you have regarding a subject.
So Its not your fault when you have these ides about Indian arranged marriages .

Pleeeese I am not defending any system.

The strong point of Indian culture is that its not stagnant and is dynamic.It has experimented many ways of living and many kind of socities.
It has a written history of atleast 5000 years .Most of the world was nothing but forest during that time.(Many eastern european or european countries were forests 1000 yrs ago only (viking era).

In India those socities and traditions which were proven to be the most stable, survived these yeras and are still prevalent.Evn these are changing with time.

Marriages are not only done between two individuals only but between two families (generally speaking).India is a more sociai socity where brothers , sisters, and other relatives share an emotional bonds.
This may look strange but thats the fact.

Now a days Boy and the girl first meet each other (do not live with each other)and see if they can be compatible with each other. Certain conditions help to give more general ideas (like family background, religion,e.t.c.) these things help to get a view or an idea what are the daily life norms a certain person has.
Bothe family meet each other and parents advices are taken seriously.

Now in a love marriages girla nd the boy spend more time with each other.they have emotionally a bond which brings them together.They do not have to sleep with each other to develop this bond .They intoduce each other to their respective family . and bothe families are part of the marriage procedures.

We also have now a days a situation where parents do not agree for the marriages.in this case the boy and the girl decides whether they want to settle down together without their families with them

Indian law allows any one to marry any one (of the differnt sex) after they cross certain age .

In India women are free and promoted in the socitiesto become Prime ministers/ Cheif ministers
(US still never had a women president).

It needs time to understand a old and rich cuture like india.

What you see on the TV are ony exceptions!!!

havehope, it is pity that you took your time to explain to a lame person. You don't need to as I already did explain on certain level but unfortunately he was not that intelligent to pick up the matter.

Hi,

cool it down please. No need to offend each other.

At trust7 different points of view are welcome!

Detlef

only man himself speaks about his inteligence.
even if he is not aware of it.

you too babloo.

@DvD
it is sorry to see that some people attack you on a personal level , rather than on your opinions.
some people are unbelievably arrogant in what ever they say.
My opinion is that even if they want to say " I love you " to some one , they might say something like Don`t the f*** do you know that i love you ?


@havehope
thanx for giving some insight on the topic.

@instructor
"Please don't take my questions arrogant" .

No you were not arrogant.Any body has the right to ask / give their opinions (in a good manner )


I have more quesions / opinions on this topic , but sensing that it will become too hot and will lead to unnecessary emotions and not to healthy discussions , i am not attempting it right now.

@krieger

I have more quesions / opinions on this topic , but sensing that it will become too hot and will lead to unnecessary emotions and not to healthy discussions , i am not attempting it right now.

As an indian I would like to say that please dont be afraid of asking question and expressing your views about our culture.

By not asking proper question and thus not clearing your doubts, you might really offend somebody someday as compared to asking question straight away and clearing your doubts.

Before pouring in sympathy, judge yourself for what your friend had to say about arranged marriages being enslavement. Here is his original transcript "BTW arranged marriages are nothing but slavery!!!". I am sure most GC's from India would consider this act a serious insult to their family as well as to their pride. You should understand that most of the Indian marriages are arranged marriages and guess who is kicking whose butt here.

I have already seen lot of these people in this board going gaga aginst Indian culture and traditions. This is not the first time and it is easy to understand all the knowledge they got is either from media or through some sub-humans. So now I ask Indian GC's out there, after you experienced arranged marriage, will you accept arranged marriage as a form of slavery? Are you scrwg your wife everyday without her will? are you giving her enough freedom to decide on family matters? does she have the right to f**k her neighbour?

Don't think that I was emotional but you will have to guage your values before making some controversial statements.

"This is not the first time and it is easy to understand all the knowledge they got is either from media or through some sub-humans."

Sorry, do you have a heaven down there in India where everything works perfectly, nothing to criticise.. ??

Take my advice as a friend.. Denial is not the solution.. there are human-right violations happening in many 3rd world countries in the name of "tradition" and religion.. people are killed/executed in Saudi-Arabia in the name of tradition/religion.. if you were from that country, would you than defend also such a practice in order to protect the pride of your homeland ?
There are international norms which define the human-rights.. if a tradition/religion violates someone else's human right or prepares the background for such a violation than I would personally never ever defend such a tradition, even though it might be a coming practice in my home-country...

Regards,

Lacrima

Well, Hi People. My thoughts....

The wedding day is a day for celebration and rightly so, when two people commmit to each other. And in countries around the world, different cultures have different ways of celebrating this occasion. The so called "tradition" on the wedding day(s). Anyway, for this institution to work, ofcourse, tradition doesn't help much. Tradition is not the reason why marriages in India or elsewhere survive. It's because the people involved understand each other and are in sync. Isn't that clear? Ofcourse, to be in sync, would mean different things in different cultures. For example, in sync would mean that they understand where each of them is positioned in the hierarchy. NO offence meant to any of the Japanese members here, but this link
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/at_japan_soc/common/all.htm would give you an impression.

Now, what's this big thing about tradition? There really is no means of comparing one tradition with another. It's just pointless. And therefore, no tradition is better than any. Isn't it enough to say something like "in our tradition we do it like this". It is simply a fact. For some it means right and for some it means wrong. If right be right, why not wrong be left? Different views?

A thought: Aren't we citizens of the world first?

India has the largest democracy in this world since its creation. People are wise enough to choose what is good for them. to some arranged marriages might be slavery and for some traditions against human voilations. The point is that if you have never lived there, it is not possible for you to see the real picture, you are just looking at one side of the coin and will never be able to judge the Traditional, social & cultural aspects in that region that are hardly found in the west.

Let me tell u one thing guys. In india it is like(generally) parents search the partners for there children and if children are agree with that then they marry with there parents wish.there is nothing about slavery in india girls(wife) are given equal rights like boys(husband) and we have very strick rules that favours girls.and u know what i think in muslim countries there is much worse situation than in india there wifes are like a slaves(evenif they are having love marriage).and i feel there is very clear picture of india and muslim countries in europe also thats why when my girlfriend ask her mama that she is going to marry me then first she asked to her if he is not muslim or belongs to muslim country.Even in turkie(who is going to be in EU there is very worse situation of girls).
So about india and its culture there is very good picture in europe and same as muslim
countries(bad image)so dont make a false picture of india on this board.
Arrange marriage is not slvaery,its just that childeren wishes to get marry according to there
parents.and these days most of indians wont follow it not because it is an old tradiation.in my case in didnt follow it but still it was arrange marriage because my parents were agree with it.so first of all get a clear picture arrange marriage .It also means that person loves eachother(choose partner self) and parents are agree with there decision.
so now babloo, if u r having love marriage u let ur wife sleep with other man because it is her right.....????

Sorry, do you have a heaven down there in India where everything works perfectly, nothing to criticise.. ??

Did I criticise that you don't eat pork or your woman wear scarf or you exercise genocide or encourage gay marriages or wage a war on innocent people or loot poor people or sing folk songs or being a racist or force other religions to convert to christianity or adamantly opposing to multicultural and multiethnic societies or being a facist or flourish Xenophobia. How much have you learned about Indian culture to criticise it? Learn to respect other cultures.

Take my advice as a friend.. Denial is not the solution..

Taking advice from an illiterate is extremely dangerous.

there are human-right violations happening in many 3rd world countries in the name of "tradition" and religion.. people are killed/executed in Saudi-Arabia in the name of tradition/religion.. if you were from that country, would you than defend also such a practice in order to protect the pride of your homeland ?

If you carefully read my previous posts you will realise that from more than 1 billion population of India it is obvious that you will find some amount of cases to prove the world that whole thing is violated there. It is important to understand that how many Indians practice it the right way? If you are from turkey then take a look at this http://theory.rockefeller.edu/~giannak/turkey.html or if you are from Germany then this country was condemned because of violations of freedom of opinion and freedom of association by the European Court of Human Rights. source http://home.online.no/~wkeim/files/de_human_rights.htm
Did you forget USA still practices death penality?

There are international norms which define the human-rights.. if a tradition/religion violates someone else's human right or prepares the background for such a violation than I would personally never ever defend such a tradition, even though it might be a coming practice in my home-country...

Can you show me where is that norm, which says arranged marriages violate human rights and is strictly not allowed to practice? You should also know who is running the human rights watch, take a look http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html

@amember
Now, what's this big thing about tradition? There really is no means of comparing one tradition with another. It's just pointless. And therefore, no tradition is better than any. Isn't it enough to say something like "in our tradition we do it like this". It is simply a fact. For some it means right and for some it means wrong. If right be right, why not wrong be left? Different views?

First of all, I for the hell did not compare traditions. Don't forget that, today you are in a comfortable position because of some traditions still staying strong. They are the foundations of today's societies. Most of money today is running under the belt of tourism and ofcourse traditions and culture play the biggest role.

@deathinc
so now babloo, if u r having love marriage u let ur wife sleep with other man because it is her right.....????

Just because someone said if not an arranged marriage then his wife has all the rights so I guess this might be one of that right.

deathinc:
"In india it is like(generally) parents search the partners for there children and if children are agree with that then they marry with there parents wish."

it is nice that children can dissagree but it is still big big difference when kids search partners and parents agree.

we also had arranged marriages where I come from.
BUT 100 YEARS AGO.
The same will happend in India. Arranged marriages WILL DIE OUT.
you can not stop it. they will die out because they are bad, AGAINST HUMAN RIGHTS and they should die out.

Even now in urban area number of AM is much smaller than on willage. With progress and urbanization which is hapening very quick, AM IN INDIA WILL DIE OUT.

Arranged marriages WILL DIE OUT.

If this happens then it will be a sad situation because love marriages are so unstable that the record of divorce rates is growing rapidly especially in the western world. On the other hand the new trend is not to marry at all. Due to this trend you will see the worst part of it where X:X relationship occurs without providing any meaning to the relationship. Then finally we reach a stage where we match animals and meaning of human being civilised animal ends. what a cracker!

You are mixing cause and consequences.
AM are not stable because they are arranged.

they are stable becuase of traditional way of life that stops people from thinking about divorce so they concentrate on working the problems out (which is better way IMHO).

this traditional way of life can stay in love marriages too. if AM dies out it does not mean that whole tradition dies out.

people can allways choose to keep parts of tradition that they find good

AM are not stable because they are arranged.

What kind of stability are you talking about? Explain it properly.

they are stable becuase of traditional way of life that stops people from thinking about divorce so they concentrate on working the problems out (which is better way IMHO).

Again you are confused, you told arranged marriages are not stable but you also tell they are stable because of tradition so in the end they are stable by your opinion.

this traditional way of life can stay in love marriages too.

If you mean keeping away from divorce then I am sorry the stats show that the divorce rates are higher in case of love marriages, which is a common way in western countries. Here is an excellent article to back up my opinions. http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=779&date=20041230


if AM dies out it does not mean that whole tradition dies out.

You are completely messing up things. Arranged marriage is a tradition. I did not get your point.


people can allways choose to keep parts of tradition that they find good

Again arranged marriages are a tradition of India atleast. How do you plan to tare apart that tradition? I thought this nice guy "havehope" have already explained how that works.

Hi again,

meanwhile I am really interested in following your discussion!

What about starting in new topic, inside the 'Meeting the World' forum.

So other readers have the chance to find your postings, even in a couple of month.

One of you could open up a new topic, like 'Arranged Marriage - Love Marriage' and you could copy and paste your older messages inside this.

What do you think?

Viele Grüsse
Detlef

How about renaming this topic, as there was hardly any help for DeathInc in this thread.

@ Akshay,

very good idea! I will do it right away :-)

Detlef

:-(

sorry, I do not know how to change all headlines. But maybe this is better than nothing.

Detlef

Never mind about the old messages. Every new message will have the new headline now :-)

Lets celebrate this entertainment together. Probably the contributions are too short at the moment so I recommend more guys to participate on full scale. Remember no fee is charged.

cheers!

Has this lacrima/lacrimo/whatever run away?

I support HAVEHOPE fully. The views are completely correct. How can you say whether Indina traditions are good or bad if you havent lived there? If it was that bad, it should have died long ago. Isnt it better to concentrate on the problems with which the Muslim community terrorises the whole world? Say for example the Middle-East unrest?

frank:
"How can you say whether Indina traditions are good or bad if you havent lived there?"

that way you can say "How can you say it is wrong that I beat my wife if you were never lived in my house?"

frank:
"If it was that bad, it should have died long ago."

same you can say for terorism. so false logic again

frank:
"Isnt it better to concentrate on the problems with which the Muslim community terrorises the whole world? Say for example the Middle-East unrest?"

if I will search something to concentrate on than I would choose my work but that is not the subject of this topic. And muslim terorism is also not.
that way I could beat up my wife and say on the court "Hey judge, concentrate on terorist and drug dealers, not on me!.


frank:
"How can you say whether Indina traditions are good or bad if you havent lived there?"

you are going in wrong direction. we are not saying anything about whole indian tradition. just about one part of it: AM.

I do not know are from some small willage or not.
I know lots of people from India and all say in big cities AM is rare. And with time it will die out in willages too.

So if AM is good, why is the number of arranged marriages going rapidly down in urban areas???

Hi everybody,

@Frank:
For anyone, interesting to know about Hinduism or "Muslims as Terrorist" or such interesting topics.

I found it interesting, so like to share:

http://www.irf.net/irf/main.htm

Mr. Dr. Zakir Naik, is an Indian, and his lectures are available online(in English).

Interestingly, you will find that people including from different religions(including their scholars) like Hindus, Muslims, Christian, etc are invited to discuss upon given topic.

So, there would not be a question of understanding at your end.


As far as DvD argument is concirned, so I think, he is right to some extent.

Look, you must differentiate between Culture and Religion. Most of the problems, which we see today, is because of unawareness of people, while taking it from either aspect.

Just for info and not to offend anybody.

Gruss,

A.T

"Has this lacrima/lacrimo/whatever run away?"

Why should I run away ? Would you please be more polite ?
The quality of discussion is too low and people writing here are blind because of their nationalistic feelings, so there is not the suitable atmosphere for a constructive discussion, why should I continue to write in such a case ? I was blamed to be Illiterate, someone called me "whatever".. so go figure the level of discussion.. so guys.. have fun and reach a conclusion.. but get yourself also informed about discussion culture..

Regards,

Lacrima

@Frank,*

To be more specific, here is a direct link to several books or articles written by Dr. Zakir Naik.


Hopefully, you will benefit from it, provided, you take it from positive aspect:

http://www.irf.net/irf/drzakirnaik/dznindex.htm

Gruss,

A.T

AT DVD,

Its very starnge to see that the guy like you is so acrimonious about a tradition i.e. A.M without knowing the sense of the whole thing.

We are all educated here, we know that the woman in India do not see the a.m as something that is forced upon them.

That is the most important thing.

The most important thing is that in India or the India subcontinent there still exists lot of emotional bondings between cousins and relatives.

The parents do not consider their responsibilties to be over once the children are older than 18years.

The parents are respected and their word means a lot through out the life.

the things which are considered as interference in

lives are taken as part of the life and there are no hard feelings.

The marriage life is ofcourse considered to be forever and divorce is like an emergency exit door on the aircraft.

there is nothing wrong to work out the relationships and solve the matters within yourselves as you said.

I do not know what you meen and think about arranged marriages but these are the marriages where the couple are introduced by the families (instead of meeting in a disco or after a one night stand).
The consent of boy and the girl is taken as a first and mandatory step.
This is one kind of scenario.


The a.m is a very complex mechanism and the feelings emotions and the mechnism of working cannot easily be understood if the person is not from the subcontinent.

Every thing has a negative aspect also so does the a.m.
But comparing a.m. to slavery is foolish and naive.

All old cultures like Indian, China, Greece egypt e.t.c these kind of marriages are common.

They are certain things which shine for ever.

@havehope

Thanks for painting a glories picture of indian AM. Fact is, AM are not that arranged anymore. Nowdays all parents do is to recommend prospective lifepartner. Then the couple meets and decide if they click together.

Before deciding for marriage the following points play crucial role:

1. Caste

This is checked even before they meet, there is no way an upper castefamily will recommend marriage with lower caste.

2. Physical appearance

Looks/height/colour etc., in contrast to the western society this doesn't seem to play a very big role in indian partner selection.

3. Finacial security

Salary/future prospects of guy....people hardly care how much the girl is earning, if at all.

4. Family background

We strongly belive in apple falling near the tree. Having alcoholic/gambler/criminal parents is absolute no no.


5. Educational/intellectual level

Precaution is taken to make sure that girl is not of higher educational level then the guy...also intellectual level, if any ;-)


6. Character

Having a couple of love affairs on guy's part is gallant....however the girl must claim to be virgin.

7. Dowry (Mitgift)

It is considered very bad to demand a dowry. But in reality the girl with most generous bid gets to be the daughter-in-law ;-)

"the woman in India do not see the a.m as something that is forced upon them."

In some old traditions (I don't know where, Egypt?) a father used to sacrify one of his daughter to the God blablabla. It was supposted that the chosed family should be happy for that honour.

"The parents do not consider their responsibilties to be over once the children are older than 18years."

Don't feel exclusive, that is almost the same in many third world countries, so nothing new.

"The consent of boy and the girl is taken as a first and mandatory step.
This is one kind of scenario."

That sounds nice in theory, in practice I'm very sure that there is a lot of pressure from the parents to choose the person that they like most. Again, in other third world countries there are similar behaviors.

"They are certain things which shine for ever"

I don't think so. India is developing very fast, which means become more capitalist, with the corresponding consecuences...

Akshay:
"Fact is, AM are not that arranged anymore. Nowdays all parents do is to recommend prospective lifepartner. Then the couple meets and decide if they click together."

that sounds reasonable.
Look. I want you to understand one thing:
I know that kids CAN DISAGREE and LAW IS ON THEIR SIDE IF THEY DO IT.
that is clear and that law is good.
I also know that ussualy parents make some good choice that kids gladly accept.
it is also hard for someone who is raised in AM area to get girl in other way. even in Deutschland there are lots of people who are unable to get a girl on their own. In their cases somone who would arranged marriage for them would be very welcome.

So in few words it is clear that AM often and in most cases works well.
But there is not only 1 AM or 2 or 3. There are milions of AM. And with that many AM lots of them must go wrong. Or lots of people are unhappy in AM.
Lots of people were really pushed in AM too young and too stupid and they do not want it any more when they reach 20 years or more.
Some did not want it from beginning.
And when that happends in AM thay have to stay together whole life against their will.
Marriage can go wrong even if it is not AM but then:
1. kids are alone guilty and not parrents
2. they just divorce and all are happy


someone mentioned Greece. Anybody read Iliada?
Helene went with Paris because her parents arranged AM with Menalaus for her when she was 16 and she was unhappy in this AM.
So tell me about tradition.


So we are not speaking about good AM.
There are such and they are in majority.
But when AM goes bad than kids are unhappy stucked for whole life.

AND IF I HAVE TO BE UNHAPPY BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAN I WANT AT LEAST THAT SOMETHING TO BE SOMETHING THAT I CHOSE AND NOT SOMEBODY ELSE.

Hi,

I am very interested in the opinion of a woman!

I also want to make clear, that this not only happens in India. There are lot of other countries, where 'arranged Marriages' are the practice.

My point of view:

Forget about nations and traditions, if my parents would have asked me to marry a girl, who they thought it would be good for me...

I would have answered: No thanks!

I am a man and I think, that woman should have the same rights as men have.

I am sure, that it is possible to find many examples, where A.M.'s worked out fine, and for some poor guys it is even better to have a A.M. than no marriage at all, but all together, I believe in the freedom of everybody, men and women, and I believe in love. So any other reason to marry, than love, is a bad reason.

Just my 5 cents :-)

Detlef

just one story

I had one nice movie from my own country.
all happends some 50 years ago. just after world war 2.
I showed this movie to one indian guy that worked in our firma. I even translated everything.
one family mother father son and doughter.
mother gets cancer and will die soon.
so father in order to make mother hapy before she dies decided to find wife for his son.
father asks son: How old are you?
Son: Next winter I will be 17.
Father: OK that means you are almost 18. What do you say about marriage.

So he arranges AM between son of 16 and girl of 24.
But son loved another
...

Film was very warm and human. Funny also. And sad of course.
Name is: This litle bit of soul

My friend from India liked it very, very much. He said that in India everything is just that way.

But in my country it changed.
It will change in India also.
You will not believe how quick AM will become only part of the history.

Aha i am very much agree by Akshay about factors for AM but i think today situation is bit changed and in some things i really dont like about india.
I have a feeling that indian girls are just for money it dosent matter how smart u r how big is ur heart. For them (girls and there parents auch) they just see if u r a doctor or engineer or having a same status of job or business.they never see the physical apeareance.I think an indian B***h will marry to a dog if he is having a good job, status and bank balance.Dont say that everywhere it is the same because i have talked about this thing alot to europians (but they will also not marry to a bagger on the street).So when someone(a parent and also girl in india) choosing the life partner they will first see the job status and money. but money dosent mean that they will choose a gangster.So family background is also important but u never able to know about it in arrange marriage because guy will not drink in front of girls parents(if they dont like it).
And caste most of the time we search within the caste but it is not mandatory.
But one thig about india is that even a bagger on the street will find a girl to marry at least in his community thru AM:-)

So trust7 u said any other reason to marry except than love is bad then u r making ur point of AM (AM is fine)wrong.because in AM love is also not the reason and it can be the parents decision or other factors also.it can happen that partner can love eachother after AM and that really works in almost 85% of AMs in india.

deathinc:
"I have a feeling that indian girls are just for money it dosent matter how smart u r how big is ur heart. For them (girls and there parents auch) they just see if u r a doctor or engineer or having a same status of job or business.they never see the physical apeareance."

on west it is much worse.
girls want to get:
money and status
ph. appearance
and above all they even want to be in charge

that is the reason why it is so hard to get married in west world and why they could use some AM

But back to reality, although AM could help to lots of people, it will hardly make a come back.
It will disapear everywhere in urban areas.

AM is making comeback only trough marriage agencies.

on west it is much worse
@DVD
Hm i am not fully satisfied.
My dear i have personal experiance in my own life and i never find any difficulty to marry to a german girl. but i never able to find a right indian girl for me. and moreover i have options to choose german girl for me and all are willing to come to india to meet me.So i think even if i
didnt face any problem who is searching while sitting 6000km away from there then there must be no problem in getting marry in west.and i will also like to say i dominate my wife and she likes that :-)
And when i will be accompnying her in G then i will be the only one(in her family) who is not having job at start but she has no problem in that thing also..
so what i said its my personal experiance.R u telling ur personal experiance or talking what u
heard from others(newspapers or TV usw..)

i feel AM will never comeback in west because u cant change the thinking of people.
And AM will remain in India because here also thinking will not change.
In west after 18 parents dont care to much about there child and even child dont expect too much from there parents and thats leads that child will choose partner self.
and in india after 18 the things are not too much change and parents thinks the same for there child when child was below 18 so at the time of marriage age they choose partner for him.

Was there any Help /Suggestion provided at all in the whole Conversation ?

@Akshay

How do you think rich is getting richer because they choose a right path to get there. All the points you mentioned are necessary to build a strong family. Moreover it really doesn't matter how you execute your marriage plan it only matters if it was finally agreed between parents of the couple as well as the couple. Finally, what you described is one way of doing the arranged marriage.

@lacrima

It is a good way to leave the premises so that you can avoid answering many questions I put forth.

@alex

You should note that religion comes into foreplay. Different religions do it diferent ways. I was particularly interested in India because I am a hindu.For your information if you are from that part of the world you will see the right side of it. If you are not it is very difficult for you to understand the picture behind the screen. There is absolutely no pressure these days from parents because if you look at the stats each bride/groom normally choose one out of tens of them so there is a wide choice there. Since India have more men than women now the gears are shifting more towards girl choosing boy. Unfortunately, I find many of you are not really aware how these marriages are done so the problem of understanding them.

@DvD

When you talk about this topic you always have double mind. You somehow cannot completely disagree and agree on things. As I said, when you are poor you tend to do things wrongly so is the case where you find those stories. Finally, you are talking about the consequences one has, if the decision is made by him or his parents. Blaming yourself not others will not solve your problem because until the last minute of your breath you need a partner who can support you. You need to live a peaceful life rather than experimenting it so you need to sacrifice some things to achieve that.

@Detlef

There is nothing wrong with your point of view except that the only reason to marry should be love. In your world, love has become a playing toy and it has no longer any significance and you should completely agree on that. Freedom is as good as is dangerous and I did explain it earlier. If you are looking for long term solutions arranged marriage can play a better role than love marriage. I completely agree that one should have freedom so I ask you, could you please write in some points/examples regarding the freedom one has after love marriage? Don't get mistaken by the fact that freedom to choose a partner is also part of arranged marriage. You might think while choosing a partner you will learn her character/opinions/intelligence etc.. but how can you be sure that she will not a different person after marriage? so please pen down the advantages of a love marriage before and after marriage and also the different points on her freedom separately.

@DvD

Regarding your movie, you should know that India for example brought these sort of things in movies long ago and there seems to be no lack of awareness. again, these are still happening in poor societies but they will learn soon. In urban areas money matters the most. Once you step into that level you rather lose your feet on traditions and its values and focus on things, which are hardly solid in nature. You tend to be more open in nature and westernised and then you are a victim of all the things we talk about love marriages. People just want to try different things, which is very bad IMHO.

@babloo

1) If you put religion here, you aren't objetive. Also, don't forget that people putting bombs in subways and so are doing that on name of their religion.

2) Look the post deathinc, he has a total different picture of AM than you, and in some way, he validated many of our points.

3) Animals (including human beings) become accustomed to what they have/live. I tried some years ago to train a bird. I used to open its cage so it could fly around my flat. It usually flied a little bit, but never far away of his cage. He loved its cage (it has its food, water) and never tried to escape...

In my opinion...

In an arranged marriage, falling in love, if it happens, happens after the marriage rather than before. Love is ofcourse important. One loves his/her family, his/her work etc, isn't how it happens? I don't know otherwise.

In any marriage the people involved have to work around the rough patches. In an arranged marriage, parents of both parties get involved to work out those situations. Not that such involvement will always lead to a better solution.

Another point could be that, for example, those people, say X and Y, who agree for arranged marriage are ones who listen and adhere to the words of their parents. And issues in the married life of X and Y are easily solved(atleast externally) when the parents order them to work out the differences somehow.

My impression is whether it be love marriage or arranged marriage, love is the only thing that would help the couple to lead a happy married life.

@alex
1)You talked about Egypt and it has nothing to do with Indian arranged marriages and now you are talking about terrorism, who is objective here?

2)that's cute, atleast you found someone who can explain it to you in a way that you understand.

3) Please talk straight forward, it is not clear to me.

---------
My conclusion:

Arranged or love marriages both have advantages and disadvantages. It can happen that if you are lucky enough you will get the Ms./Mr. Right. Never make a controversial statement like arranged marriages are dying, third world countries are still practising old & ugly marriage traditions, arranged marriages are slavery. If you make then you will also have to agree with the ugly side of love marriages. I have lot of points to prove and I did it. In the end, it depends on a single person to choose what he wants to and no one can alter that.

This has been a highly debated topic for ages. Just google "Arranged Love Marriages" and you would know what I mean ....

I had this argument with my colleagues some time back ... and there were some really interesting questions that came up, which I would like to share with you ...

One of my colleague was surprised and asked me "So, you had an AM ? Now what if you find a very gorgeous girl tomorrow and fall in love with her ?"

Well ... if this is the attitude that people have ... then I wont be surprised if the marriage doesn't last long ... It really doesn't matter if it is an AM or a love marriage ... If one is always hunting for the most "gorgeous" girl ... he is going to spend the rest of his life hunting for it, till he turns some 60 when there are no more "gorgeous" girls interested in him ... then he would pbly go to some east European countries or other 3rd world countries ... pay the family of the girl some EUR and bring the girl here ...

Another colleague was of the opinion that marriage itself was a stupid idea ... According to him "people should just remain as partners ... without any bonds ... And they should have sex only for the fun of it and not for raising kids ... that's what even dogs and other animals do ... "

Well .. a best role model ... I would say ... A Dog .... an animal that doesn't know the difference between a mother, sister or a wife ... of course they don't have anything called wife ... and they don't believe in AM for sure ...

There is no doubt that AMs work out for some socities and the existing practice in many countries is a proof for that. But at the same time AMs are considered out of the time by many socities.

Having said that , forced arranged marriages in my opinion are inhuman and violates human rights. That is one bad possibility in AMs . When many people talked about AMs here, i think what they also had in mind is the possibility of forced AMs.

Thank you Akshay for drawing a clear picture (a realistic , bold one ) on Indian AMs.

I have a few more thoughts on this topic , AM vs. LM

When one compare the success rate of love marriages and arranged marriages ,it is
important to compare both within one society / country.
It is illogical ,in my opinion, to say that love marriages are unstable and AM are stable citing statisitcs from india on AM and some other countries on LM.

It makes more sense when comparison is made about the success / failure rate of love and arranged marriages within one country and draw a conclusion.

One has to take all factors into consideration including social , cultural ane economic ones.


In my opinion the divorce rate is less in india because of social and as well as economic reasons.

In the western world women are more financially independent.
And ther is NO social stigma regarding divorce in these socities.
I think it is not the case with
India where family as well as social bonds are more strong compared to western socities. And i feel economic dependance as well as living with ones parents even after 18 or after getting married , also play a role in this.

And i think this situation will change in India too, when women will become more financially independent. Or is it already happening...?

@Detlef
"I am very interested in the opinion of a woman!"

here is what i found googling.

opinion of a girl who is pro AM
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2005050201750100.htm&date=2005/05/02/&prd=mp&

some anti- AM girls
http://www.the-week.com/25feb27/currentevents_article10.htm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1408188,00180007.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1288898.cms


here is another interesting article on indians and their sex life
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1540471,00180007.htm

Dear krieger,

thanks a lot for your valuable message! I will read the linked articles at the weekend :-)

Have a nice day
Detlef

when you say love marriage,
do you mean
- love for another human being or
- love for money.

second is quite often today. especcialy among girls

lov for money,second is quite often today
@DVD
No its depend on ur luck which girl u face. I never meet an indian b***h who has lov for human being.I think lov for money(among girls) is more in developing countries rather than in developed countries.

@deathinc

very true ... and India is one of the dirtiest places on earth ... let alone the peoples living there ... Its really unfortunate that you were born there ...

Just pack your bags and come here as soon as possible ... its all roses here ... Its even better than heaven .... With such warm and friendly peoples all arround who really know to love human beings ...

HB, I love it.

1)You talked about Egypt and it has nothing to do with Indian arranged marriages and now you are talking about terrorism, who is objective here?

R// Me, of course! I'm comparing another tradition/religion behaviors that for thoses cultures is/was accepted. Again, stop feeling yourself a special human being just because you were born in India. Bad things are bad everywhere, That's my point!

2)that's cute, atleast you found someone who can explain it to you in a way that you understand.

R// well, he is indian, his opinion is as informative as yours, or now, you will begin to say that you are the only holder of the true.

3) Please talk straight forward, it is not clear to me.

Well, it's easy, people living in AM become accustomed to live that relationship because they did not have the chance to compare. They just say "we're happy" the same way west marriages say "we're happy", hiding their (big) internal problems and they get used to them. The only difference should be that, in your country, divorce is a tabu (or even maybe is forbiden, I don't know). A divorced man normally doesn't have any social problem, but. for sure, a divorced woman is pointed out as a "bad (guilty) woman". Again, that happens everywhere, and are changing everywhere (even in your dreamed perfect crystal ball country).

I'm comparing another tradition/religion behaviors that for thoses cultures is/was accepted.

yes that is what I said before and you asked me to be objective :-)

Again, stop feeling yourself a special human being just because you were born in India. Bad things are bad everywhere, That's my point!

Who is feeling special here, I never said India is the best. Did I?

he is indian, his opinion is as informative as yours, or now, you will begin to say that you are the only holder of the true.

LOL, what a crap!

even in your dreamed perfect crystal ball country

Stop whining!

till he turns some 60 when there are no more "gorgeous" girls interested in him ... then he would pbly go to some east European countries or other 3rd world countries ... pay the family of the girl some EUR and bring the girl here ...

HB, this is true because of the currency value. Lot of people from rich countries go to places like Thailand, Vietnam and Philippines. They also go to places like India and China but they aren't successful in their plans because people there are too complicated to handle. Did you ever see some old a$$e$ in Germany dressed like a lad and holding hands together with young east-asian women and walking ont he streets. Probably these women come here for money and later they find a way to divorce and somehow it works for them. It's pity that these poor people have to choose a life, which wasn't expected. They loose their normal life during their adult years.

@babloo

At-least I know 2 ...

1. A lady in my neighbourhood ...

She is in her 50s ... from an east European country ... has 3 kids there ... but no hus and no money ...

An old man (should be in his 60s or 70s) brought her here, ... to "serve" him ...

She me told that she does all the work for him ... and of course he pays her for that ... but never allows her to visit her kids ... She said that he is willing to "marry" her provided she just "forgets" about her kids ...

She of course doesn't want to part with her kids ... because its for them that she is here ...

2. Saw it in TV some time back ...

The guy is in his 60s ... brought a girl from Vietnam ... she is in her 20s ... married her ... He said that he spent something like 100,000 EUR for the whole thing ... money to her family, marriage, and for bringing her here ...

Personally, I never met anyone in that situation but it is really pity that she will miss her kids. I also think east european countries are poor and I heard lot of prostitution cases on TV who are brought in forcibly for the purpose of helping German families and are abused later.

@HB

Your both examples are similar in nature to AM. This trend of buying-a-wife is going on for centuries. In India it is more popular then anywhere else in world.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000938.html

I recently watched a movie called "Matrubhoomi: A Nation Without Women". In this movie, as a result of too many infant girls being killed at birth by families not wanting to pay dowries, there is a drastic countrywide shortage of women. In one village the men try to cope by watching drag performers and pornographic movies, even having sex with animals. But then the local priest comes across a girl Kalki in the woods. The wealthy Ramcharan offers her father Prateb 500,000 rupees to buy her as bride for his five sons. After the marriage, each of the sons agrees to spend one night of the week each with her, with the father having her on the remaining two.

@Akshay

I seriously recommend you to get your facts right because you try to generalise everything. Why do you bring in cases from poor families? most of them are illiterates who lack education. how can you expect them to behave well? that is why there are social awareness programs being conducted in India to counter and prevent such acts. In the lower middle class families you will find very few cases. The link you gave is completely non-sense because it is the reverse way happening atleast in the middle class societies, lesser girls tougher for boys to find one and there is no question of buying. It is a simple logic! I also know in India more than 50% of population live under poverty and when you expect a country like India with its economy growing rapidly I am sure one day the poor people will have better awareness and resources to cope with their situation. If you blame the Indian politicians I am in the driver seat but blaming the system is wrong. Poor people simply abuse the system, which is already in the place.

I feel sorry for the way you sell the values of your home country.

@babloo

I feel sorry for the way you sell the values of your home country.

I am not a salesman and not trying to sell anything here. I was merely stating undeniable facts.

Why do you bring in cases from poor families?....I also know in India more than 50% of population live under poverty....

My comments relate to half-a-billion human beings, which suffice to say represents the majority.

.....when you expect a country like India with its economy growing rapidly I am sure one day the poor people will have better awareness and resources to cope with their situation.

WE ARE NOT THERE YET !! Talk to me when this is a reality, until then put up with me.

You missed the point, we are talking about the hard core thing "arranged marriages" not how people practice it. This is a concept setup by our ancestors. You should know that you are indirectly selling the false side of Indian traditional system on a German discussion board, no denial of that. You are selling your thoughts for free and don't forget lot of people already bought them and are satisfied. Does that sound crazy if so look at the things closely then you will realise what you are doing.

akshay:
"I recently watched a movie called "Matrubhoomi: A Nation Without Women". In this movie, as a result of too many infant girls being killed at birth by families not wanting to pay dowries, there is a drastic countrywide shortage of women. In one village the men try to cope by watching drag performers and pornographic movies, even having sex with animals. But then the local priest comes across a girl Kalki in the woods. The wealthy Ramcharan offers her father Prateb 500,000 rupees to buy her as bride for his five sons. After the marriage, each of the sons agrees to spend one night of the week each with her, with the father having her on the remaining two."

quite shocking!
in what parts of india are such a things happening?
whole India?

I must say I can not understand guys like this babloo who still tries to prove that AM is perfect marriage.

EVEN SLAVERY IS BETTER THAN SUCH A MARRIAGES!

I think it is the best way just to ignore babloo. He is living in clouds far away from reality and mother Earth.

Hey babloo@the.one-and-only-true-indian.in

This is just a discussion forum. And what does that mean? It is a German discussion forum where each country man can sell their country? What's all this? Wierd kind of thinking.

Why don't you just put together all your posts on this thread and read through it? One hell of a selling, ain't it?

And you the winner, you have proved beyond any reasonable doubts what you set to accomplish.

I think just beside this AM comes one other question which is similár and somehow related to AM.

THAT IS DOWRY.

similar to AM it also existed at my home country but now it is a long gone history like AM.
THANKS GOD.

If you think a bit you will see what a sh.t this dowry is. Actually dowry made this "Land without the women" problem.

@amember

My intention is clear I want to tell people all is not true what you saw and heard about India. Now that I live in Germany it is my duty as an Indian citizen to bring good image of my country. I am proud of what I am trying to achieve. I am working my ass out to convince people to respect each other cultures and live in harmony. To my suprise some Indian guys here are spoiling the image of India. Now that I confess publicly it is up to you to take my remarks seriously. Are your doubts cleared?

THAT IS DOWRY. similar to AM it also existed at my home country but now it is a long gone history like AM.
THANKS GOD.

what is your home country? In your home country everything seems to be blue. You are the brat who wanted to bring in hegemony. Don't you think you are demanding people to change in your country's path. Let me know your country and I will bring in the facts immediately on the table.

quite shocking!
in what parts of india are such a things happening?
whole India?

Isn't it? this is fantasy movie and how innocent one can be to judge things based on media even though there are some cases in the wild but then even in Germany there are cases like man loving other man and then eating him.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=374
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/13/germany.cannibal/

I must say I can not understand guys like this babloo who still tries to prove that AM is perfect marriage.

I am trying to prove that nothing is perfect on this earth.

@babloo

.....it is my duty as an Indian citizen to bring good image of my country. I am proud of what I am trying to achieve. I am working my ass out......

If I just may ask how do you plan to bring good image of India? ....and I suggest you should leave your ass in peace.

To my suprise some Indian guys here are spoiling the image of India.

I dont think anyone is doing that. And anyway, what good an image is, if it is based on false information, hypocrisy and outdated custom?

@akshay

How do you guarantee that your information is not false? how do you guarantee that if you rest your black a$$ :-) in peace you will bring good image?

@Akshay

Thanks for your contribution. A clear example that if you are a mature person, able to criticize your traditions if you desagree (not like lambs)

"Why do you bring in cases from poor families?"

Now babloo is showing his racism side. He don't want to consider poor indians as representative of his country, even they are a big amount of the population.

babloo, go to take a rest in your "nice" cage!

Sir alex, I definitely need rest because you and others still fail read my thoughts properly. No sorry, I am not a racist because I am from a low caste society in India and I was poor before and I know how well they are educated and that is why I hate my Government for not taking proper measures to educate them. Why do you get emotional??? by the way your English sucks!

Hey DVD from which country u belong?
I think what the picture Akshay has given about india that is a picture of a very very tiny part of india and and please dont compare the movie with the reality(movie r just for fun) and also not with whole india and also dont believe the fact about india on internet.
So for first af all ich lebe noch in indien and i can giv u the better picture here.
and the picture i have given about the how indian girls choose there partner or how there parents search is also true.
hey Dvd we hav no problem with AM and almost 75% of young generation and 99% of parents still believe in it and we believe AM is perfect marriage in india till now.
Ya it is true we hav problem(with some stupid indians) if they r having girls then because of dowary they try to abort the child befor birth.and i have some real example my nabour was having 2 daughter and when they find the third child is again girl then they abort the delievery.
and there is one funny incident of my one known relative,they were having first child as girl but they want a boy but not want to abort the delievery so they try again and second was again girl then 3rd then 4th then 8th was also girl so then they decide lets stop it now.
So about Dowary it is totally illigeal in india and we have laws to prevent it but the indian tradiation are so strong that we still doing it in name of presents and girls parents are having no prob in doing that but still noone can demand it officially.
hey babloo carry on i like ur thoughts too.

Just my 5 cents

First my story: I come from a upper middle class family from Delhi and had all the freedom to choose a bride for myself, may it be an European or an India (all supported by my traditional family).

Having noticed the typical western (European) way of marriage (which is: Meet a girl in disco, sleep with her. Stay with her for 10 years and then get married and then get divorced after few years), I took my parents support (their network) to find my soul mate and got married in the most traditional arranged marriage way. And by God's blessings, I am very happy. In my entire family, there has'nt been any single LV and also no divorce.

My parents ONLY introduced me to my current wife and her family. It was entirely left to me and her to decide about our future (marriage). Mine as well as my wife's parents are very traditional, still there wasnt even a minute amount of pressure from them to make this work. It was entirely our decision to get married to each other.

I have the impression that most of the anti-AM comments come from the fact that they are made out of the misunderstanding that AM is always forced by parents. So get rid of this pre-judged opinion about AM and face the facts.

AM in India is not at all different from the typical LM happening in Europe. The disco-meet-up/dating-website role here in Europe is taken over by the parents, who just introduce You to the prospective bride/groom. Just like Eurpeans take the final decision to get married, the same way we Indians finally decide our future and not our parents.

Of course there are incidents when parents force the boy/girl to get married, or do it for financial reasons, or bla bla. But hey, shit happens, not only in India but here in Europe too. I can quote infinite shit stories from the western living sytle but thats not my goal.

In my opinion, meeting someone via Your parents is muuuuuuuch better than meeting someone in disco/dating-website, simply because parents have double of the life experience than we have and can look at things much broadly than ourselves. Also because relationships which start with merely sex and the lust for each other do not last very long and thats why the divorce rate is soooo high here.

There are a lot of LM happening in India. Loooads of them. But so has the divorce rate shot up.

Most of the people who have been criticizing AM, I believe never had any real experience with AM, but just making these comments out of information from here and there. How many of these people really have any experience with AM ? that they are soo against it.

Detlef and others wrote that the main factor behind marriage should be love. Thats not correct. Love is like a ocean wave which goes up and down. Marriages purely based on love (like here in Europe) break when love is on the low. No wonder why the divorce rate is sooo high in Germany (West). On the other side, AM in India start with an understanding and respect for each other. Obviously love finds its place very soon. But those marriages do not break up when love is on the low. They are more resilient.

Btw, before the 2nd world war, AM was also a common practice here in Europe. But then Germany (Europe) became richer, women got more financially independent and that is why they do not think twice before getting a divorce. After getting divorced, they enjoy their life with another man, while their first husband works his ass off and gives a hefty portion of his hard earned money to his x-wife, so that she could enjoy more with her new boyfriend/husband. I am soo happy that I was born in India and so out of this aspect of European culture.

My intention is only to draw the comparison between AM and LV. I also intend to inform everyone about the ground facts, specially to those who are continously criticizing AM without having any experience with it. Its same when some of my western colleagues criticize the Holy Quran without ever having read it (BTW I am a Hindu and not a Muslim, so pls do not think I am trying to pacify any wrong thing happening in this world and do not start another debate), because all what they say is based on information from here and there.

deathinc,

I am sorry to hear Your sorry story that You could not find even one single girl in India who could like You for what You are.

Faced by this failure and the acceptance from a German girl has made You pour out Your hated for Indian girls and thats why You keep writing b***h for them again and again.

But You are forgetting that Your mother/sister/grand-mother/aunt are also Indian girl/women and generalizing all Indian girls as b***h says nothing except for Your frustation on Your failure.

May be its time for some introspection.

Nitin, HB, deathinc & havehope, thanks for sharing some of my thoughts. Good to see ya!

Hey nitin
Ha ha ha my thought for indian b***hes will not change.And the fact will remain fact u r tryin to say what u face or what u hav in real leben and i am tryin to say what i am hav in real leben and first of all my wife never asked me about how much bank balance i hav,what i will be doing in G because of of all the arbeitlos and my indian education is not sufficient there.all..

Still i am working here in Reliance(in Delhi) as engineer and now i have everything i want but if now an indian girl come to me then i will kick her ass out because i know she is comming not for me ok.I had a bad time also when i had no job no money and i know the behaviour of indian B***hes at that time.
And for u information i never fail because defeat is not my destiny.i simply kick them(indian b***hes) now....
dont say that parents always do the right because they hav more xp this is a wrong fact.(maybe in ur case it is true).
and bytheway ur opinion sucks because ur thoughts are too much dependent on parents(In my opinion, meeting someone via Your parents is muuuuuuuch better than meeting someone in disco/dating-website))

Wwoouuuhh,

that's a good discussion. What I learned so far is, that AM does not mean no love included. And that LM is also managed somehow, by friends or club members, introducing singles to each other, who they think it could work.

So we are more on the same road, than I expected it at the beginning.

Maybe you can agree, that the intentions make the difference. The intentions of the 'organizers', family or friends or who ever.

And even if the intentions are bad, I guess there are a lot of examples, where the marriage worked out fine at the end.

What I am still missing is the comment of a girl/wife. Maybe there are not so many here in our forum? Something I would like to change :-)

Have a nice evening
Detlef

Hey nitin
Ha ha ha my thought for indian b***hes will not change <<NITIN: I DONT INTEND TO CHANGE YOUR THOUGHTS. JUST WANTED TO REMIND THAT YOUR SISTER/MOTHER/GRAND-MOTHER TOO IS AN INDIAN, SO YOU ARE AWARE OF WHOM YOU ARE ABUSING.>>.And the fact will remain fact u r tryin to say what u face or what u hav in real leben and i am tryin to say what i am hav in real leben and first of all my wife never asked me about how much bank balance i hav,what i will be doing in G because of of all the arbeitlos and my indian education is not sufficient there.all..

<<NITIN: ITS GREAT THAT UR WIFE DID NOT ASK ABOUT UR BANK BALANCE. NEITHER DID MINE AND NEITHER DID WIFE OF ANYONE WHOM I KNOW.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF FAMILY-BACKGROUND/CULTURE/SOCIAL-STATUS YOU COME FROM THAT ALL THE OTHER GIRLS YOU HAVE MET ASKED ABOUT UR BANK BALANCE. DONT TAKE ME WRONG, BUT YOU MUST TO BE REALLY PATHETIC THAT GIRLS ASK ABOUT UR BANK BALANCE BEFORE TALKING ABOUT MARRYING YOU. I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. >>

Still i am working here in Reliance(in Delhi) as engineer and now i have everything i want but if now an indian girl come to me then i will kick her ass out because i know she is comming not for me ok.I had a bad time also when i had no job no money and i know the behaviour of indian B***hes at that time.

<<NITIN: AGAIN I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR YOU THAT YOU HAVE GONE THRU SUCH AMOUNT OF SHIT IN YOUR LIFE. I MEAN I HAVE NEVER MET SOMEONE SO PITIFUL IN LIFE WHO WAS REJECTED BY ALLLLL GIRLS HE MET BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE A GOOD BANK BALANCE>>

And for u information i never fail because defeat is not my destiny.i simply kick them(indian b***hes)

<<NITIN: FROM YOUR STORY, IT SEEMS JUST THE OPPOSITE WAY, THAT ALL THE GIRLS YOU HAVE MET SO FAR KICKED YOUR BUTT AND REJECTED YOU.>>

now....dont say that parents always do the right because they hav more xp this is a wrong fact.(maybe in ur case it is true).
and bytheway ur opinion sucks because ur thoughts are too much dependent on parents(In my opinion, meeting someone via Your parents is muuuuuuuch better than meeting someone in disco/dating-website))

<<NITIN: YOU WROTE ABOVE THAT IT MAY BE TRUE IN MY CASE BUT IT IS A WRONG FACT. PLEASE PUT SOME CLARITY IN YOUR WORDINGS. NO NEED TO GET EMOTIONAL >>

<<NITIN: YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT. I WROTE THAT IT WAS ENTIRELY MY DECISION TO SELECT MY BRIDE. MY PARENTS JUST INTRODUCED HER TO ME. THERE WAS NO PRESSURE ON ME TO SELECT HER. I KNOW ITS LATE IN INDIA RIGHT NOW AND YOUR EYES ARE ALREADY HALF CLOSED. >>

<<NITIN: LASTLY, NOW THAT YOU HAVE SUCH A GOOD JOB WITH RELIANCE AND THAT YOU ARE MARRIED, WHY DONT YOU ASK YOUR WIFE TO COME OVER TO INDIA AND START LIVING WITH YOU THERE ? IF YOU CAN TRY 3 TIMES TO GET THE GERMAN VISA AND COME CLOSER TO HER THEN WHY CANT SHE DO THE SAME FOR YOU. INDIAN EMBASSY WOULD NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEM IN GIVING HER THE VISA, UNLIKE WHAT GERMAN EMBASSY THINKS OF YOU. THIS IS JUST MY RECOMMENDATION TO SOLVE YOUR ORIGINAL PROBLEM

I HAVE A FEELING THAT YOU MARRIED HER BECAUSE U WANTED TO FLEE TO EUROPE. DONT TAKE ME WRONG, BUT THATS WORSE THAN THOSE GIRLS WHO DID NOT WANT TO MARRY YOU BCOS U DID NOT HAVE ANY BANK BALANCE.>>

Detlef,

I am happy that You now understand that both LM and AM are not sooooo world apart from each other. I hope others have learnt something as well.

One small comment: It does not matter so much what the intentions are of the 'organizers'/family/friends etc etc. What matters most is Your/Your-partner's intentions and the will to make it work.

Detlef, without love any relationship will break. The interesting thing about relationship after arranged marriage the couple tend to compromise on some imp. issues and after they get kids they come even closer. After all love is nothing but affection and things like parents, kids and mutual understanding get them to that stage. It is actually learning by doing process. The fact is not all relationships reach 100% efficiency as it is true in any relation except mother-baby relation. A know definition for love marriage is you love first and then marry where as in arranged marriages you marry first and then love so the final goal is same.

Hey Nitin
hey dont stick to one point, And dont talk like a politician coz they sucks also. first
bankbalance i mean how is ur status and in that everything comes of course money and job also.
ok if that bitch hurt u then i will not use this word.
i dont know what u r doing but will ur wife marry u if u dont have any job or no money??????
thats my point may be u hav a good heart full of lov or ur good humanbeing but ask ur wife will
she marry u if u dont have any job or any money and dont lie to me..
Bythe way she(my wife) cant leave her job because she is bounded in a contract and if she leave befor she has to pay panelty and i am free to leave my job and i will join her in G.
u have a feelings that i marry her to come to G because ur feeling sucks like others who think
like that but the fact will remain the fact and that fact i know and i dont need to clear this
fact to U.
but i will like to say one thing to u that she purposed me to marry first.
and i was denied three times thats why she came here.
And i dont need any recomendations from any d***head coz it sucks like ur thoughts and bytheway i got the way to slove my prob.
And remember if i want i can F*** as many indian girls as i can but i am not intrested in them
anymore and afterall im honest n this is the fact.
and its better we dont get to personal and better dont stop me to express my thought on indian b***hes.
ps: pls remove ur pic coz u really looking like a d***head.

deathinc, what kind of satisfaction do you get calling "Indian btches"? I will give you a tip, here after you can call something like "some crazy Indian btches" and in short SCIB. Use the math subset rule. Does this help! :-) if not then carry on, no one will stop you forcibly.

@Nithin

" Of course there are incidents when parents force the boy/girl to get married, or do it for financial reasons, or bla bla "

That is one real bad point in AMs compared to LM


" In my opinion, meeting someone via Your parents is muuuuuuuch better than meeting someone in disco/dating-website, simply because parents have double of the life experience than we have and can look at things much broadly than ourselves."

I don`t think finding a girl on your own is bad. In my opinion one has to take decisions on their own after a certain age. Dependency is not a good idea when it comes to marriage, about the number of kids, the timing of it etc.


"Also because relationships which start with merely sex and the lust for each other do not last very long and thats why the divorce rate is soooo high here."

I too agree with that statement. But I don`t think all LMs are that way. When sex and lust is the only goal , usually people dont get married. They may opt for one night stand or
short term relationships. And sex is also an important reason why people gets married. Lust is another thing.


"There are a lot of LM happening in India. Loooads of them. But so has the divorce rate shot up."

IMHO, divorce rates are shooting up not because of LMs but because women are more educated nowadays and more financially independent.Usually in bad AMs women are at
the receiving end and they cant come out of it because of social as well as financial reasons. Btb, i tried to get some statistics on divorced LMs in India but i could not find any by googling. Could you please provide a link or was it just a speculation ?


"Most of the people who have been criticizing AM, I believe never had any real experience with AM, but just making these comments out of information from here and there. How many of these people really have any experience with AM ? that they are soo against it. "

It is also a good idea to ask how many AM lers have experienced LM to criticise it.


"Detlef and others wrote that the main factor behind marriage should be love. Thats not correct"

That is a very very interesting statement . Yes, i can see in AMs it is not possible.



"On the other side, AM in India start with an understanding and respect for each other. Obviously love finds its place very soon. But those marriages do not break up when love is on the low. They are more resilient."

Where there is love , there is understanding and respect. Without these Love Marriages too will not happen. The reason for the resiliency of indian marriage is not purely because they are AM but also financial dependance, lack of education , social pressure and may be some others.


"I am soo happy that I was born in India and so out of this aspect of European culture."

I am sure most of the people are happy to be born in and proud of their own countries.


".... specially to those who are continously criticizing AM without having any experience with it."

Friend, you only had one experience of AM And dont forget there may be millions of others for whom AM didnt work out well.When one of will say , out of his experience that AM is bad , will you agree upon that ?

"But then Germany (Europe) became richer, women got more financially independent and that is why they do not think twice before getting a divorce."

Watch out , India is also on the path to become a developed country. The way to keep the AMs : dont get developed , dont give women financial independence and keep the 3500 year old cast system and not so old subcast system.

When i made that statement ,dont conclude that i am against indian culture or traditions. I am aware that India has a very long history compared to other socities, lots of philosphers were born there,it gave birth to many religions including Hiduism,Budhism,Sikhism etc, Islam religion was there in India just after the
time of prophet , Christianity entered India in AD 52 well before it was there in Europe etc. etc.

But no society will evolve into a healthier one , without self correction and self criticism. Some traditions evolved faster while others are slow to change, but the fact is that change is bound to happen with education ,self awareness and time.




@Detlef
What I am still missing is the comment of a girl/wife.

Beleive me , lots of girl / wife will speak in support of AM, because they have been living this way for centuries (tradition) and it works out well for them. And LM is not so common india compared to AM.



@deathinc
And remember if i want i can F*** as many indian girls as i can......

lol, what is your secreat ? Or are you just giving an example of boasting ?


Footnote :

Those who are comfortable with AM , carry on the old traditions, LM advocacies - dont let the love die out.

@LM warrior

Those who are comfortable with AM , carry on the old traditions, LM advocacies - dont let the love die out.

Now that you have come to talk on better grounds I advice those who are against AM's stop advocating that LM's are heaven and AM's are slavery. Check who started this nonsense.

<<@deathinc>>

Hey Nitin
hey dont stick to one point, And dont talk like a politician coz they sucks also. first
bankbalance i mean how is ur status and in that everything comes of course money and job also.
ok if that bitch hurt u then i will not use this word.

<<You are not hurting me at all. You are in fact hurting Yourself by calling Indian girls as bitches when Your mother/sister/grand-mother/etc are too Indians >>

i dont know what u r doing but will ur wife marry u if u dont have any job or no money??????


thats my point may be u hav a good heart full of lov or ur good humanbeing but ask ur wife will
she marry u if u dont have any job or any money and dont lie to me..

<<May be not, but would You marry someone who is not been to school ? Unless You too havent been to school ;) My point is that there are certain basic expectations from everyone looking for their life partner and there is nothing wrong in that. Not just few Indian girls but any girl in this world would not be willing to marry someone who does not have a job (unless You are in blind love or some other hidden reason), which is obvious given that if that man cannot take care of himself (does not have a job) then how will he take care of her/family in future.

Another things which makes me wonder (has to do something with common-sense) is that why would U want to marry when U dont even have a job and still settling Your feets on the ground ? Is it because U r looking for a wife who works and could sponsor Your expenses ;) grow up yaar and stop living in a la la world.>>

Bythe way she(my wife) cant leave her job because she is bounded in a contract and if she leave befor she has to pay panelty and i am free to leave my job and i will join her in G.
u have a feelings that i marry her to come to G because ur feeling sucks like others who think
like that but the fact will remain the fact and that fact i know and i dont need to clear this
fact to U.

<<It seems that I have hit You at the wrong point. You are explaining it to me but still contesting that You do not have to clear this to me.>>

but i will like to say one thing to u that she purposed me to marry first.

<<Mind sharing what she liked in You soo much ? I am always fancied by these online dating sites and deciding to marry even if You have never met each other.

What is the force getting You both together ? If You do not mind sharing.>>

and i was denied three times thats why she came here.
And i dont need any recomendations from any d***head coz it sucks like ur thoughts and bytheway i got the way to slove my prob.

<<Now You are proving why girls always rejected You. You looose Your temper and start abusing. So it has nothing to do with Your bank balance but to do with Your personality. As I said before, its time for some self-introspection.>>

<<@Detlef: Do You allow abusing on the trust7.com ?>>

And remember if i want i can F*** as many indian girls as i can but i am not intrested in them
anymore and afterall im honest n this is the fact.

<<You do not have to prove Your manhood/value to us. You have already explained that looooods of girls rejected You.>>

and its better we dont get to personal and better dont stop me to express my thought on indian b***hes.
ps: pls remove ur pic coz u really looking like a d***head.

<<See now You are proving what kind of family/backround You come from. I accept I might not be the best looking guy in this world but at least I never got rejected by all the girls like You did ;)

Stop whinning/justifying like a kid and focus on being together with Your wife. Best of luck.


Btw, it would be nice knowing Your real name, where You come from in India and may be Your foto on this forum. Let me know if/when You come to Germany and may be we can meet for a beer.
>>

@krieger

Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing ;-)

Nitin, people don't go here to discos/bars to find wife/husband, they are places to have fun, that is. Don't do unfair comparations.

From my point of view, I don't find much different between your experience and a successful marriage through Partnersuche-Website.

Anyway, I'm happy that your AM worked fine, but it seems that definitely is not always the case.

Just wait when indian women get more economical/social/familiar independency...

Hi Nitin,,
you asked: <<@Detlef: Do You allow abusing on the trust7.com ?>>

The answer is no, of course. And I do not like the way 'deathinc' write. Not at all!

But he used *** and therefor I did not deleted his messages.

On the other hand, this is a good point to ask deathinc to try to get the standard of all the other participants of this discussion.

Your arguments will not get better if you always use dirty words. The opposite is the fact.

A nice weekend to all of you!
Detlef

Nitin, people don't go here to discos/bars to find wife/husband, they are places to have fun, that is. Don't do unfair comparations.

LOL, begging to be fair! why don't you do that first.


From my point of view, I don't find much different between your experience and a successful marriage through Partnersuche-Website.

The problem now in these countries is it so hard to find a partner who has real love and therefore they do not have another way except to come to the basics and some are so lazy that they just don't think of marriage at all. I know one German guy who told me now-a-days it is very diffucult to find girls just because most of them are interested in sex rather than long term relationship.

Anyway, I'm happy that your AM worked fine, but it seems that definitely is not always the case.

It is true in most cases. How do you know what is happening in India when you have not been there. Since we are in Germany we can see all these stuff through our naked eyes.

Just wait when indian women get more economical/social/familiar independency...

Go and visit Indian banks, IT offices or any private business in India then you will find out most of the employees are women and they are earning money along with their husband. Coming to private business, most of the people in India believe women management is better and it will not be that far if you see women managers in India as they are already present but in less numbers. You might be surprised how they handle kids, due to the strong relationship of grandparents and fmaily members the kids are taken care of when parents go to work. Nothing will change in India when it comes to arranged marriages even though the couples become self-dependant. India is doing its best to preserve not an outdated culture and don't get mislead by some Indian roges here who either had some personal problem or enjoying other culture.