Kreiger, you almost killed my patience. I wish you and other GC's to live a life, which you are comfortable with. For me love or arranged is same because both have its own values and lets learn not to make controversial statements before learning about it. I am sure many of you who are against AM's have learnt lot of things from those who support AM's. It is worth visiting India atleast once in a lifetime. India is filled with many cultures and traditions. I think it would be a good idea to see it through your naked eye. My invitation to you guys to visit India from kashmir to kanyakumari.

Hereafter, if any, please clarify your doubts on things related to India in this forum. I hope we can have better and healthy discussions in the future.

I am ending up my contribution to this topic as I will be busy coming week.

nice weekend!

@deathinc

Your point of view is well justified. I too believe that most of indian girls are goldiggers. I have seen a lot of indian girls dumping their boyfriends without a second thought as soon as they got a chance to marry an NRI (no offence to Nitin).

I can very well understand your frustration with indian girls. There is no way you can get an indian wife/girlfriend, if you cant afford her financial needs. In europe/germany it is still possible to have a girlfriend/wife if you are a nice person, even though you dont have money. Being a nice/good man is of no value in India, since in indian girl's rating scale financial advantages comes first.

@Nitin

From your post it is clear that you are well-fed-pampered-kid belonging to upper-middle-class family. You lived all your life in your parent's house in some posh vicinity of delhi. During your schooling you had enough pocket money to buy branded stuff like Levis/Lotto/Gucci/Nike, taking a girl out to some fancy ice-cream-parlor/restaurant and buying expensive gifts was not a problem for you. I dont condemn getting laid on parent's invoice but you enjoyed all the luxurious of life that guys like Deathinc could only dream of. I hardly think that you ever went to hardship in life, unlike others.

After your well-financed education you ended up working in europe/germany with a good salary. I dont think any chick in india would reject your marriage proposal. Its not you she is married to, but the comfort of living in europe and financial security you are providing. Its a status symbol for her parents to claim that our daughter is married to someone in germany :-)

I am sure you are also a nice/good person, but would it have mattered if you were not? ;-)

Just my 5 cents.

@samdcha

I appreciate your efforts to explain different marriage systems in India.

Well...here are the other known types of marriage systems in India:

1.Brahm Vivah: it is self decided marriage by girl. In this girl is married while performing holy yajna with the best learned boy searched by parents or herself and no dowry.

2.Dev Vivah: in this marriage holy yajna is performed and to perform the yajna, number of learned boys are also invited. And in this marriage some good articles, clothes etc., are donated whereas in above stated Braham marriage nothing is donated.

3.Aarsh Vivah: in this marriage the father of bridegroom takes nothing and marriage is performed in holy yajna.

4.Prajapatya Vivah: in a holy yajna, learned person and parents do marriage and advice both (boy and the girl) to continue their family life religiously. In this marriage all the married learned persons give blessings to newly married couple.

5.Asur Vivah: while performing holy yajna marriage is performed and the parents of girl give some dowry to bridegroom. It is not blessed by learned persons due to the involvement of dowry system, etc.

6.Gandharv Vivah: where there is no Yaj and presence of any other person except girl and the boy. Both agreed to marry and continue family life.

7.Rakshas Vivah: when a girl is forcefully taken and marriage is done, it is also not admitted by learned persons and is not religious.

8.Paishach Vivah: in a lonely place if a girl is met while sleeping or she is mad etc., and someone outrages her modesty. It is also not admitted by learned persons and is not religious.

Akshay:-)
Atleast i find someone who thinks likes me:-)
For Me money is not the issue thats the problem and if i see money in Love then it hurts me
by the wish of god i(today) hav here no prob with money(dont compare with ur german standards coz i get my salery still in Rupee:-))and if someone(indian girl) is going to stay with me then i can fulfill her needs(if that r not too much big) but the point is that now girl will come to me not for lov.
and Pls noone ask to me this question --(if i hav everything here then why u want to come to germany).

<<@krieger>>

Many AM advocates were telling that the high divorce rate here is not due to the fact that it is LM. It is more because of a free, independent society here , people have the choice to choose what they want , no social stigma regarding divorce, no social pressure and no financial problems. Even Gerhard Schröders wife is his fourth and 19 years junior to him. No i am not telling whether it is right or wrong , but explaining the social setup.

<<Thats the point. If there is sooo much love between the couples before their LV marriage, then why do they very sooon CHOOSE to get divorced. I have met soooo many European couples who lived together for years and then got married just to divorce after 2 years.

In India even, people are free to make decisions for their life (just like I did). So again wake up from Your website link based knowledge.
>>


And why do you think the divorce rate is low in AMs ..? Is it purely because they are AMs ? If not what is the reason...? Because it started with respect and understanding for each
other ? No my friends. Even in LMs these two factors are there in the beginning like AMs plus another important factor called love.(And you can see love is lacking in AMs in the initial stage).

<<Look at my point above and You know how much respect and understanding there is LM. To the extent that Europeans make marriage agreements before they do their LM >>

The reason is because of other factors like, social pressure, social stigma, financial,little or no chances in getting remarried, the family doent like the divorce status etc. or you can call it tradition. After all tradition is something that is being followed for centuries whether it is right or wrong.

<<Again Your bookish knowledge. Social pressure I explained in my previous replies. Financial: I assume You missed a post in the beginning which highlighted the role of Indian women in today's growing India. Indian women are found working across all Industries in today's India. >>

And thinking that only in AM once love is gone or low, understanding and respect will prevail is a misconception. How is it possible only in case of AMs and not in LMs.
<<You tell me that, after all You are the one advocating LM >>

After all both are marriages.And these factors were present in both marriages.

Remember , our initial discussion was basically about AMs and LMs . And the supporters of AMs were mainly telling about the high divorce rate in LMs or in western world.And there were always this talk of divorce rate in Indian AM is low and comparing it with divorce rate in western LMs. But people are not taking the social conditions of both sides into consideration. The social setup is totally different. It is the social setup which makes AMs tick in India. It is not because they are just AMs .

<<You missed my comment on Indians living in Western world, enjoying the same economical advantage like other Europeans but still have the lowest divorce rate. Go back and read it. >>

And i hope one thing every one will agree upon : There is no chance of forced marriage in LM , but
there is a chance of forced marriage in AM ( And as many people agreed here, it may be still happening in AMs , at least in rural India).
<<Again, I am totally against forced AMs. And as I explained previously, forced AMs are not soo common.

Finally, there are loooooads of couples doing LM in Europe just to realize that the decision to get married was coming from their sexual organs and not from brains. That is equally shameful for the advocates of LM. >>

And it is a pity that some members talk with disdain about the poor. After all they are also citizens of the same country and they are the majority. May be, for them too ,the forced AMs are a tradition.


It is also interesting to note that some of the previous posts favouring AM were trying to depict a picture of LM- girls as someone who lurches around streets with lusty eyes seeking for sex from any tom dick and harry.Gives an impression that all these girls are of loose moral.Now do you think that it is correct
having lived here ?

<<I dont know about others but I definitely never made any comments going to that level.

However there is no denying about the high rate of extra-marritel-affairs/divorces/cheating/un-adulteration in western culture. Again You might want to relate this to the freedom of choice, but does it make all the above wrong as right ? >>

It is a fact that there are people with high and low morals in all socities. It is not just here. It is also the case in India, Western world , Middle East , Far East or where ever it is. Example: Rapes happening in Delhi in recent times are attracting a lot of media attention. I am also aware that in US too rape rate is high.

<<Now You are talking my language. My initial point was to those people who were continously criticizing Indian culture without looking into their own cultures. I totally agree with You that shit happens in India/Asia, but no less shit happens in Your soo called Western culture. To be honest, if You look at it from my eyes, then Western culture is already at its worst.>>


@Nithin

"<<100% agreed with You. Every society in this world (European, Indian, American etc etc) needs self correction and self criticism. But thats the point 'SELF' correction/criticism is needed and not from any foreigner who might have never visited India but is sooooooo upfront in criticizing India culture."


Not able to stand criticism from others and beleiving in only self crititcism is not a healthy sign , whether it is in the case of a person or of any society. It is a sign of Egotism. There are little or no chances of improvement / evolution when criticism is not tolerated. The reason is most people / society thinks that whatever they do is correct and hence no self criticism .

<<You missed the point that We Indians do not need any criticism from Europeans who have NEVER even lived in India but arguing just based on few website links. I have been living in Europe since more than 5 years now and know on-hands-information about both Indian and European society. You on the other side have never even lived in India and all Your knowledge comes from few websites.

First go to India and live there at least for 1 year, understand our culture/tradition and then come back to me with Your healthy criticism and I assure You that I will take a note of each and every of Your points.

Before that You are NOT even qualified to criticize Indian culture/tradition.

So dont expect me to even bother replying to Your posts (which are nothing more the same points You raised previously, which have already been answered by me previously) anymore until You are back from India with Your crash-course on Indian culture

>>

@deathinc:

You have not even given 1 single convincing answer to any of my points. Just hushing away my points by saying that 'I feel i am arguing with a kid', 'u r a dumba*s' etc etc.

In reality:

- You were rejected by all the girls You met in Your life because You did not have a job. And as per Your view, all those girls are just b***hes.

- You wanted to marry even when You did not have a job. Assuming that Your parents will sponsor Your honeymoon, Your living expenses etc etc.

- You finally married someone, whom U never ever met before. Just love at first site (courtesy webcam/emails).

- Accoding to You, all German girls would be willing to marry a beggar for love, but there is not even 1 German girl who actually did. You are really easy to convince, at least by good looking blonde German girls ;)

- According to You, Your wife loves You soooo much but went back to Germany to save some penalty fees. And as per You, of course it is sooooo un-practical to pay some penalty fees in order to stay with Your own husband, irrespective of the fact that there is ocean love between You guys.

- You tried to get German visa 3 times but was rejected.

- Then You wrote at trust7.com asking for help and made Your point strong by abusing all Indian girls and calling them b***hes.

- Then You started abusing to people who are not willing to buy Your cindrella story.

I do not see this discussion with You going anywhere, specially with You dropping to the level of abusing. It is very easy for me to reply back with abuse, but then how would I do anything different than You did. So no more replies from me ;)

<<@Akshay>>

Your point of view is well justified. I too believe that most of indian girls are goldiggers. I have seen a lot of indian girls dumping their boyfriends without a second thought as soon as they got a chance to marry an NRI (no offence to Nitin).

<<I do know the exact % numbers, but no denying that there are some Indian girls who are golddiggers. But there is also no denying that there might be even more % of girls here in Europe who are gold diggers. So stop putting a black/white picture and deepen Your comprehension.>>

I can very well understand your frustration with indian girls. There is no way you can get an indian wife/girlfriend, if you cant afford her financial needs. In europe/germany it is still possible to have a girlfriend/wife if you are a nice person, even though you dont have money. Being a nice/good man is of no value in India, since in indian girl's rating scale financial advantages comes first.

<<You missed what samdcha wrote in her post. This is ONLY because in Germany people still do not know what poverty/hand-to-mouth means (thanks to the generous social system here). So again stop being biased against Your own country/motherland and put together a fairer comparison. >>

@Nitin

From your post it is clear that you are well-fed-pampered-kid belonging to upper-middle-class family. You lived all your life in your parent's house in some posh vicinity of delhi. During your schooling you had enough pocket money to buy branded stuff like Levis/Lotto/Gucci/Nike, taking a girl out to some fancy ice-cream-parlor/restaurant and buying expensive gifts was not a problem for you. I dont condemn getting laid on parent's invoice but you enjoyed all the luxurious of life that guys like Deathinc could only dream of. I hardly think that you ever went to hardship in life, unlike others.

<<I do not want to get into the discussion of what luxuries I enjoyed in my life and what hardships Deathinc faced in his life (for eg. he did not have enuff pocket money to take a friend for an ice-cream etc. Which btw even he never wrote). >>

After your well-financed education you ended up working in europe/germany with a good salary.

<<You are making me laugh with Your so called rosy picture about my life. Though I wish it was true but in reality it was not.>>

I dont think any chick in india would reject your marriage proposal. Its not you she is married to, but the comfort of living in europe and financial security you are providing. Its a status symbol for her parents to claim that our daughter is married to someone in germany

<<Not entirely true. Not exactly rejected, but there was a girl who did not want to leave India. So dont think too extremely >>


I am sure you are also a nice/good person, but would it have mattered if you were not?

<<Akshay, I have no clue where You come (society/background etc) from but a very basic question: Will You as a father ever marry Your beloved daughter to someone just so that she gets a nice comfortable life in Europe and would not even care if the person to whom You are marrying away Your daughter is a drug-addict/not-nice-person/not-good-person etc. ? I assume You got my reply.

Again, I do not know what kind of Indian girls You have been around with, but no one I know would get married with a bad person ;) They are much smarter than You think they are. >>

<<Btw, where do You come from in India? Write to me at nitin.malhotra@khalsa.com >>

Just my 5 cents.

<<Every cent counts and so did Your 5 cents.>>

Nitin.
<<Then You started abusing to people who are not willing to buy Your cindrella story>>
Ha ha when u hav no words to answer me then its good again to pin up faults in me.and by the way im not a seller who want to sell his story.
and i am not abusing anyone (from last my 4-5 messages) and (not to u also) neverthless i am
reading ur crap again and again(almost same things reaptedly)
I am a practical person and i write what happen in my practical life and i dont giv a dam if
anyone believe in it or not because im happy the way my life is going and who care about u:-)

<<You have not even given 1 single convincing answer to any of my points. Just hushing away my points by saying that 'I feel i am arguing with a kid', 'u r a dumba*s' etc etc.>>
<<<<<<I never told u dumba*s read it carefully first in my previous message.>>>>>>
And if u have some brain in u then u will find all my answers in our previous talks.btw i dont hav habbit to repeat the things again and again like u.

AND I have proved u already that u r totally wrong<<if u were right about me then she would never marry me>>
<<- You wanted to marry even when You did not have a job. Assuming that Your parents will sponsor Your honeymoon, Your living expenses etc>>
Haha now this time u r drunk i never told that i wanted to marry an indian girl when i hav no
job.(I told u that dont talk(and twist the things) like an indian politicians because they really sucks)
<<You tried to get German visa 3 times but was rejected>>
Dont repeat the things again and again when i hav already told people all the truth ok.
and pls its better for u to stop writing(to me) if u dont hav any logical AND PRACTICAL ANSWER
tell me if anyone is pin up faults in me or i am pin up faults in anyone in this thread.

<<Then You wrote at trust7.com asking for help >>
coz i know that others who r sharing there thoughts here r more mature than u.
My dear friend first get the xp from ur life and be practical. dont talk what is in books or if u
dont like anyone then dont try to be smart by finding faults in them.

<<You finally married someone, whom U never ever met before. Just love at first site (courtesy
webcam/emails)>>
Be realistic man this is a time of internet and what i hav done is nothin new (I KNOW HER FROM
LAST 3 YEARS)


<<According to You, Your wife loves You soooo much but went back to Germany to save some penalty fees. And as per You, of course it is sooooo un-practical to pay some penalty fees in order to stay with Your own husband, irrespective of the fact that there is ocean love between You guys>>
Actually i dont want to talk in this way but u r forcing me to talk like that so answer me--tell me why u r not comming to india and join ur family and do the job here???????
coz wht u hav in ur mind the samething i think every indian who is there in
germnay hav in their mind noone is forcing them(and u also) to stay in germany ok.
so my dear friend again be a practical practical practical man, i will be staying with her it
just matters of few months ok

I WOULD BE HAPPY IF A GERMAN ASK ME THIS QUESTION BUT IM SAD THAT U ASKING ME THIS THING AGAIN AND AGAIN NEVERTHLESS THIS IS ALSO UR REALITY(IN A DIFF WAY)
BTW MY MANY GERMAN FRIENDS KNOWS ABOUT MY MARRIAGE AND NOWONE HAS ASKED ME LIKE THAT.AND IM REALLY SHOCKED THE WAY U R ASKING THE SAME THING IN A DIFFERENT WAY TO ME AGAIN AND AGAIN.

<<So no more replies from me >>
Aha u quiter quiter quiter:-) its better for u to quite instead writing same things again and again(in context with me).
AT THE END I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ONE THING.ITS NOT UR FAULT WHY U R BEHAVING WITH ME LIKE THIS.ITS
THE LEVAL OF UR MATUARITY AND UR PRACTICAL THINKING THAT IS VERY VERY LESS IN U.
Hav a nice day and enjoy ur WE:-)

Nitin
What i feel about u
1 First u r completely unlogical person.
2 U forget ur reality why u r still here in germany.whereas India wants the people like u and ur familie also like u to be with them.
3 I am Fully agree from akshay point why ur wife is with u?.

4 Maybe u r more qualified than me but i think u have no practical knowledege of life coz u never
fight in ur life.

5 I think u dont even hav a good brain thats why u never able to understand my points.or U dont try to read and then think properly(or u r too dumb to understand)

6By reading books and getting knowledge from here and there and impressing others with ur long
bouring pharagraphs dosent makes u smart.coz i can also write a whole book here.

7 u neverever write a single incident of ur real life which relates to our discussion(why u will
write coz u havnt had this situation in ur life u got what u want without any fight:-))

8It is easy to say without experiance but when u will hav the things in ur real life and then u
will see how things r different.

9Ok lets see in ur way if im the person like u describe then from ur point of view no girl will
marry me either in india or in anywhere in the world.but so here WHAT U R WRITING ABOUT ME SOOOOOOOO LONG FOR SO MANY DAYS I HAV PROVED U WRONG LOGICALLY.
<<COZ I M NOW MARRIAD and that is also not AM >>
So this 1 line makes the conclusion of our whole discussion:-)

10 U hav Ego problem thats why when u r wrong u dont want to accept it.

Better accept all the things and dont write to me back or if u want to continue then im ready:-)

@Nithin,
Another point.

One of your complaints is about the authenticity of the information i provided. All the weblinks were provided from well reputed Indian sites , written by indian journalits , about real indian people. They are not fictional stories made up by some anti-indians.

A person can get infromation in many ways.

- from his own personal experience
- from what he sees around him
- by reading(reputed newspapers, books, websites etc.)
- from what others tell him etc.


It is impossible for any one to have all sort of experience in ones own lifetime. So it is natural that one has to depend on some reliable , reputed and unbiased sources for information one has no experience in.

No more opinion on AM / LM.
I suggest you to read the full discussion again with a neutral mind when you have time and desire. I will also do that , after all dust dies down , with a clear mind and when i too have time.

Could anyone explain me how love happens in couple of days??? it said that to understand a single person whole life is less. how do these people understand each other in fews days and to that extent that they get married. I'm strong believer that love at first sight is either attraction or lust, glorified to be love.

@Akshay:

Thanks for more info the matter. I just wanted to tell indian culture and the ancient philosophers were not stupid and had done great work in understanding psychology and socio-economical affairs. and that the only point putting this info. they also gave more importance in mental and social health.

@Krieger:
It is not a point to hide something or market something. Western world is already poisoned about indian stuff. they already have quiet a stunning info about india and hence i don't want to add more to it. ppl have asked about things like : Does indian lives on trees? (which i have not seen in my whole life) are there snakes roaming in houses and gardens ?( to be frank i've seen snake only couple of times in my whole life that too in isolated forest area ). Many concept about and stupid claims about indian culture really irritates. More important Indians are not god, but are similar humans like rest of world, surely not stupid or inferior . Germany or any other country is neither garden of eden. There are stories that we are aware of, but situation is not as bad it is portrayed by media. Indian woman as Nitin said before are really doing well and getting independant. i also know women from very poor backgroung, run family on their own. in this world there are good people and bad in every part of country in every country. what I'm talking about is culture. there are many people who don't understand what culture is and ( make stupid) comment about culture. babloo is trying to explain here same thing. he doesn't mean that AM is good and LM is bad. he is defending what someone made stupid comments ( or attacked ) this concept. He also mentioned previously those who like LM/AM go for it. He never said those going for LM should go for AM.

@deathinc:
I would like to know about ur story more. u said urs is arrange marraige. is it true??? I think u have very interesting story.

@Nitin
sure I'm not a gal. Do you think any indian gal would enter in such such discussion where such dirty things getting written?????? and they call it developed culture or world. One more thing my father would advice me that first be able to stand on your own and then think of marriage (fortunately i never let my dad have a chance to give such advice ). i hope u know what i mean. ;)

@deathinc

is your wife german or indian girl?

I do not get it. You said your marriage is arranged?
Did your parrents arranged it?
Did you found this girl through parrents friends?
In Germany?
So what is than chat and internet doing there?

@deathinc

hai my friend,
i read your story, i am also from india. i am married and living with a german girl for two years.
to some extent your feelings about indian girls is true, epecially in big cities most of the girls will look for a boyfriend who has car, bank balance.
in germany as per my concern my wife did not look about my status as i am only a student from past 2 years and almost no earning ( she works).
german girls when they love , the will not think about your position and earnings.they do this bcoz they dont have a family bondage and social security.
in india the marriage is between two families, so indians cant do that.one thing may indian girl will to your money at the begining but she will never leave you if you loose it.
germany girls can also forget you as easy as they love also. german girl can be a good lover not a good wife.
i dont have any problems with my wife but i lost my freedom. she says i should be always around her, this is not possible for indians as we are social animals.
so i tell one thing to indians who want marry german girls; you can love them and stay with together but dont marry. i does not mean they are bad but the cultural difference is the main thing wchich will bring problems.

with love
indogerman

babloo wrote:

...........One thing is for sure you are a rare species in India because this country is known to have good traditional values when it comes to marriage except for some exceptional case like yours. I think you do fit to a more open culture to the likes of Germany. Get going, if not this winter atleast next Christmas you will be blessed by weihnachtsmann.

Hi Nithin, samdcha and all,

The above wordings was what started off the whole thing. Ain't it quite obvious that this Indian boy repects his own culture as well as others.

Hi deathinc,

Is that Death Inc? Funny. Is that your real life story or are you hallucinating?

Think about these......
The Kamasutra was written by an Indian. Think about the study and experiments that must have gone in to compiling this. Kajuraho Temples is also in India. Group sex existed in India?

When love is low how can respect spring up to work out things in a marriage? How can there be respect without love? I am of the opinion that commitment, understanding, love, sex etc are all important factors that make a marriage work, whether it be love marriage or arranged marriage. Commitment is what is most important. So when love is low or sex is low, you have to heart to explain that to your better half and make him/her understand. You can only do that only if you respect him/her and that respect comes out of love. Atleast, it seems to me that way.

If Indians think that big cities in India is getting weternised, then it's the Indian people who are welcoming and accepting them. Don't the Indians have a mind of their own and make their own choices.

There is good statement from some westner "House from Japan, Food from China and wife from India"

For me, Japanese house is fine, but indian food and indian wife ;) ( I hope till then I don't fall in love with someone other. days are changing. ;) )

@samdcha

For me, Japanese house is fine, but indian food and indian wife....

Well, you are now in germany how about trying out german cuisine for a change ;-)

Its nice that some of u guys are intrested what happned in my personal life but now i am afraid
to tell more details in public(coz i think i am the only stupid in this thread who has told so
many things going in his life:-)) perhaps when i will able to meet anyone of u personally in D
then i will be comfortable to tell u more:-)Also some of u guys hav seen my foto so i dont want
to hav trouble atleast in D :-)

meanwhile i went to embassy today and they r sayin that my file has gone to D in AbH and we r
waiting for reply.

Aha DVD ok once again for u

I cam from normal middle class familie from delhi.
she is German
I hav no relatives in D except some very very good german friends.
but noone helped me in searching my wife for me.
Ha My parents wants me to get marry to an indian girl:-)
I never gone to D till now.
So the only way was internet:-)(so now u got it?)

we meet thru a german site 3 years ago.
she come to I we get married My parents were agree so it was LM-AM:-)
hey nomore now:-)

amember
i want something that represent my character and my hard life so i choose this word.

Akshay ,Samdacha
For me Indian food,german wife, and hause i have to decide:-)
Good night to all of u guys:-)

Some reading....
http://countrystudies.us/india/86.htm

@amember:
True but by my guess it was somewhere more than 50-60 yrs ago. Iravati Karve she died long way before even I was born.

oh man....
so as i understand,you have got married to come to germany,and you must give her money for that isnt???
tell us your real situation then we can maybe help you!
best regards!!