Hi all...
I have been sending money to my parents and claiming this from finazamt for last 3 years. this was 100% return which means that if you have sent 7.188,00 Euros (thats maximum limit i think) then you may get back around 30% out of it as tax reimbursment.
But today some how I come to know that for countires like Pakistan its 1/3 of the maximum limit for which tax could be reclaimed. in easiest words if you have sent 7,188,00 then you could claim tax for 2.396.00 which means that 30% of 2,396.00 would be returen from finanzamt.
is this true or I am somehow mistaken?????
regards

The limit (for India) upto which you can support your parents (and grandparents and in-laws) has been reduced from 2395 Euro to 1900 Euro per parent for the year 2004. Please enquire to some Tax Consultant/ Finanzamt about the latest scale!

hello fred

1)can we also claim tax returns on money sent to parents when we are students.

2) can i claim tax returns from 2003 even now.

ok happy weekend

sorry nomad:

I dont know ans for ques.1

I guess you shd have done it in 2004, but maybe you can get an excuse from your Finanzamt.

Hi nomad,

yes you have a period of two years for claming the tax. ie til the end of this year you have time.
after two years the only method to claim tax is by filing tax and to say that you have earned in nebentätigkeit. i didn't last year for 2001. but for this you need a good steuerberater.

HTH
Alvin

I am stillwaiting for my answer
regards

Why dont you see a Tax Consultant then?

I know one who doesnt charge anything for the first sitting, and also answers questions over phone!

Speaks English, and even works on Saturdays!!

Herr Aybulut
65-4 Kaiser strasse
Frankfurt
Ph : 069253001.

hi Memory,
Finanzamt only considers a top limit of 2395EURO, as fred told. Last year it was the limit atleast for Pakistanis, so u may get back only 30% of that.For sure, not more then that, no matter how much u sent.

the best way to get as much money as possible from Finanzamt is to take services of a good consultant. My returns were amazing compared to previous years, when last year i got services of the following consultant in Frankfurt.
Martin Thomas, Tel:069 951196-40

fyi,

Hi All,
Can someone from pakistan tell me from where I have to get signed Unterhaltungsbesheinigung, From Local Union Counsil or District Office? This form should be signed every year or once?
Official sign it without any hassle or?

It is first time,i want to cliam parent support.

Regards.

mahmud

@MH

Would you like to share how much he charged you? Did he charge you based on a % of your returns, or did he have a flat rate?

Mr.Aybulut is from a Lohnsteuerverein and they havea table with fixed rates:

80 euro for ppl with 30K Brutto
110 euro for ppl with 40K as Brutto

@Mahmod
u have to submit this bescheinigung every year.
simple is to have it attested from an "Oeth commissionar/ Notary", he stamps it and signs it.These people normally sit at Kachari (district court). They take no more then 50 Rs. for this service.


@fred
if i remember correct he took 125 EURO, he belongs to a lohnsteuer verein, so this price is for a whole year, this means even u need to apply to finanzamt for other things, this amount covers that, but i think only upto a total return of 10,000EUR.

for 2002, i got almost nothing in returns, because the berator that time didnt put my application the right way. Lastyear i didnt get returns only for 2003, but also from 2002 (because of Mr. Martin) - because he made an Anspruch that i was give less money for 2002.

i hope i could help u a bit with this info.
u guys can contact him, he speaks also english.

Hi MH,
My thougt was that you go to notar with orignal papers & sign the copy that it is certified copy of orignal.
Do my father have to show any documents to Notar? My father did not served any job(no pension etc),also for long time he has left farming(No income from field). My father is living now in Rawalpindi(id card from Rawalpindi district),we belong to a village in jhelum District. I don't know where I should send my father Pindi district or jhelum, which documents they can ask there.

Also in Unterhaltungsbescheinung,there is RegisterdNo field,it will be filled with ID-CardNo or something else?.

It will be great if someone clear in detail (if possible) so that I don't have to make corrections & document transfers, because I am applying for 2003 tax & only 3 months left for application.

i have sent English-German form,do I will need to translate any thing.I think it will only stamps (hopefully in english) & sign.

Best regards.

mahmud

Hi Mahmud,
great to know, i also come from Jhelum -
it does not matter, if ur father has ID from anyother city. If he lives in Rawalpindi, then it should be ok if goes their. The Oeth Commissionar can ask for his ID, but i dont think it would be any problem. the Unterhaltsbescheinigung that i have, dont have RegisteredNo or something, if i remember correctly.

u dont be afraid of such things. The Form contains English translation, so no need for any other translation. Apart from that u should get a Bescheinigung from the bank here that u have sent this much amount to him, if u used to send it through National Bank, then they know the process. You should get all the TTs for every transfer. Only one paper stating that u sent e.g. 5000 EUR last year would not be enough. Finanazamt wants to make sure that u sent this money after certain intervals, u know, not in December 04 -

i hope this helps.
best wishes.

Hi MH,
Nice to know about you...
Thanks for the info. I am living in muenchen
Here is my mailid if want to contact me.

#mahmud.de at gmail dot com#

mahmud

hi Mahmud
I am also from rawalpindi....
well my father simply went to katehri (district-court) and they got a 20Rs Stamp paper and got a typing that stated that i am the legal son of him and he is dependent on me and that i am living and working in germany in xxx firma and xxx city. and that i sent him the money (amount does not matter here) in his account number xxxxx.

whenever you transfer a money from bank you get a letter. this letter also inculdes the details of the bank and acount holder name where you sent the money ( in case of money going to ausland)


so you only need to provide these to papers to finanzamt. 1. stamp paper attested by notar 2. bank letter stating money sent.

the maximum limit is 7188,00 euro per year and tax claim should be 1/3 of this money.which means you will get 30% of 1/3rd of 7188.

regards

Thanks Memory...

Mahmud

Hi all,
One more question,I want to apply for double house hold,the tax consultant asked me to prepare rent contract from pakistan,as you know there is no such contract thing. How did you prepare such document,if I my self prepare such document which info should be included to be acceptable. Any info in this regard will be very helpful.

Regards.

Mahmud

Hi Mahmud,

There are some changes in rules (but i cannot confirm it) regarding double houshold that one may not claim it anymore.
however, one possibility can be that u ask from ur parents to send u a copy of "house registy", if they have their own house, no matter where in pak. if they live on rent: how they pay rent?
if through bank, then u could present here the slips from bank or
ur father can go kachari (district court)there he can buy a "stamp paper"- maybe u know this is paper where u can prove legal things. on that paper it can be typed that they are living in that house and the houseowner can also sign it. An oeth commissioner can also stamp it, all shouldnt cost more then 100Rs.
i hope this could help u a bit.
nice weekend.

Hi,

the rules about "Außergewöhnliche Belastungen" stated in paragrapf 33a EStG (Einkommensteuergesetz) have been changed from 2004 on. The maximum amount raised up from 7.188 Euro to 7.680 Euro. For payments to the members of the family in straight line (parents, children) and for the divorced partner or the separate living partner in abroad, the authorities accept such aliment payments. BUT: The own income of that recipient will be deducted from that 7.680 Euro. The fiscal authorities classified the countries in different groups. For each group the maximum amount is different.

Examples:

Full amount countries
Andorra
Australia
Belgium
Brunai
Denmark
Finland
Irland
Iceland
Israel

3/4 countries:
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Barbados
Greece
Korea
Malta

1/2 countries:
Arbentine
Belize
Brazil
Chile

1/4 countries:
all not mentioned
e.g. Pakistan.....

For further question regarding a special countrie pls ask me.

Own income which the recipient earn is to deduct from that maximum amount. The limit amount of own earnings is as follows:

in 1/1 countries 624 EURO
in 3/4 countries 468 EURO
in 1/2 countries 312 EURO
in 1/4 countries 156 EURO

Example:
You pay to your mother in Pakistan 8000 Euro in 2004. Her own earnings are 500 Euro

Maximum amount (1/4 country) 1.920 EURO
Own income of the mother 800
limit of own income 156
Deduction - 644 - 644 EURO
------------
1.276 EURO

I hope this helps you.

Hi Limajr
Thanks for such a brief reply but still last thing is missing.

shall we get 1276,00 euro back or we will get back the tax out of 1276,00 which will be again 30% of 1276,00 =382.8euro

regards

This 1.276 EURO shown in my example is the amount that you can deduct from your taxable income. Depending on your tax rate (consider that Germany has a progressiv tax tarif!) you'll receive as a tax payback the appropriate tax rate on that 1.276 EURO.

Hi MH,
My wife was there in pakistan during 2003-2004, she was living in house owned by my brother. For double household,Can I get contract from brother / registry or not. My parents are living with my brother,I don't think so one can apply double house in such case. If some one has clear DH for wife living,pls. tell me how did u prepared house rent contract? did finanzamt asked it or not? because tax consaltant said I should be prepare for rencontarct in pakistan,finazamt may ask..

regards.

mahmood

You must know that double household has a big impact on your taxes. So the fiscal authorities are really proofing if all preconditions are fullfilled or not. If you don't have any official documents from the authorities in your home country it helps when you can show them a rental contract for a flat/house. This contract must not be formal but should contain the main issues like
1. name of landlord
2. name of tenent
3. location
4. period of renting
5. fee

You need furthermore show a document showing that you're married. The next very important thing is that you must show them that you take part to the household in your homecountry. This you can/need to do in 2 ways:
1. Show them documents of money transactions
2. You MUST be at home in person every 2 years at the minimum! So if you plan a travel back home put this time line into your considerations.

Can someone please send me a copy of Unterhaltsbescheinigung (english-german)? my address is : iaminfrankfurt@gmail.com

Sincerely appreciate it.

Hi Mahmud,
thats a stupid tax consultant, sorry to say this.
he is asking u document which Finanzamt does not ask for. During last four years, atleast i have not been asked for such document. however, if u have visited Pak during last year, the airplane ticket should be enough to show that u visit ur homecountry (secondhome).

if u show that parents are living with brother, i am not sure, but it can make this claim a bit week. Because the fact that u havent yet permanent residence here, ur doublehoushold (if law still permits that) should be accepted without much evidences.

normally tax consultants have used old GC rules for claiming doublehousehold. they used to sent printouts with ur application to finanzamnt, because GC program was temporary, fianzamt had no problem to accept it.

why dont u make a declaration attested by some oeth commissioner that they r your parents, living at xyz address, and u r their brother, liviing in a combined family, where u support them.

nice weekend.

MH wrote:
thats a stupid tax consultant, sorry to say this.
he is asking u document which Finanzamt does not ask for

Thx for that nice compliment. What makes you sure, that I'm stupid, eh? Only to let you know... I'm responsible for the tax issues of nearly 10,000 people. I'm dealing daily with the tax authorities in whole Germany and even abroad. This as well for Germans as also for people from all over the world, called expatriates.

You seem to have luck with your fiscal authorities. But believe me, that it depends very much on who is checking your tax application. I was suggesting only something that would make it easier.

By the way did you know that the rules for double household of a single person has been changed? Before it was accepted for 2 years now it's down to 3 months. Showing to be a brother or son makes the fiscal authorities only believe that you're a single. A flight ticket shows them that you have been back home, thats right. But what you need to show them is that YOU own in your homecountry a household. To have only a room in the house/flat of your parents is not enough to be called a houshold.

Thats at the moment the situation by law. If your authorities is not checking up all these preconditions then you're lucky. But you can't trust on this before.

If you don't believe me see the offical letter from the Bundesministerium für Finanzen (BMF) from 30.06.2004 to this topic:
http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Steuern/Lohnsteuer-.621.25382/Artikel/Doppelte-Haushaltsfuehrung-bei...htm

Hi all,
My tax consultant just told me that FA can ask for Rental Contract, may be FA does not ask? Anyway,Can I get rental contract from my brother? I have transfered funds to my brother A/C. I think I will do this, it is upto FA to accept it or not,it is reality? If my brother have space in house, he will not give me for free.
Other marriage documents are translated into german & accepted by FA for the year 2002(have got class III tax).

Thanks MH & limajr.

Mahmud

@limajr
sorry for comments. The problem is the interpretation of regulations by Beamters, this creates great confusions and unsecurity, if u read the forums here, u should have an overview.so if u want to read the forums, be prepare to face such comments - which are not mostly personal, but conveys the confusions and insecurities that we GCs face due to the mood of the Beamter on a certain day, not only in finanzamt, but AB, AA etc etc.
BTW why dont u tell clearly ur client (Mamud) that under his circumstances he can not claim for double household? -

Hi Limjar

you wrote that "By the way did you know that the rules for double household of a single person has been changed? Before it was accepted for 2 years now it's down to 3 months." . What about if some one already have claimed double-houshold for two year (2002/2003) and then he get marry (2004)folowing year. His wife was still in Pakistan let say for 6-8 month and then she came to germany. She was living in his parents home in Pakistan. Is it possible to claim houshold for this ?
What about Ticket he baught to bring her with him in Germany ?


thanks in advance

Hi All,
Pls. don't take anyone persnonal,one can here only try to give any suggesion or personal experience,which can vary from person to person.

if Limjar or any has info about my last post & as 'tali22' said, it will be great.

I will request everyone to help anyone in friendly way. It may be that my or other new users questions are not clear.

Thanks everyone & regards.

mahmud

Hi Limajr

i have had a double house from May 2003 till december 2004. for year 2003 I already claimed my double house and kilometer money and I get it back. Now I will apply for 2004 also.... but you wrote that rules are changed from 2 years to only 3 month...what does it mean to me particularly...should i apply for double house during tax-return for year 2004 or not???

regards
tahmas

Dear all,
now that we have 3 double household cases here at once in this posting it starts to be messing....

So please have some understanding when I'm not replying for each case as detailed as necessary. Double household is a very complex tax issue which deffers from case to case very much. So I will give here only common advices as long as I don't know every detailed familiar and personal circumstances from each one.

@tali22
Because of his marriage and the fact that his wife has been lifing in 2004 for 6-8 months in Pakistan, he can go on claiming double household as well for 2004. If the main household in Pakistan was closed after his wife has been moving to Germany, double household will only be accepted pro rata temporis.

The flight costs will be accepted.

Be aware that a double household will not be created by a marriage while the GC holder is already in Germany. The double household must have been arosen because of the job. If one marries afterwards and the partner stays in the homecountry then the double household was created by private reasons. Privat reasons for a double household are not accepted by the FA.

@Memory
By now I don't know any details about your familiar and personal circumstances. But you wrote that for 2003 the fiscal authorities (Finanzamt=FA) has been accepted your double household. This restriction down to 3 months is only valid for singles without an own main household in the home country. To answer to your question I need more informations.

@mahmud
Your tax consultant is not wrong when he recommend you to have a rental contract. This is only to be prepared if the FA is asking for this. Being married makes it easier for you to get double household accepted. The 3 months doesn't apply to you.

Requesting once again:

Can someone please point me to the link where I can find this Untelhaltsbescheinigung (German-English) ?

If someone has it in the form of a file, please email it to me at iaminfrankfurt@gmail.com

Thanks

@iaminfrankfurt:

Done.

hi limajr
could you please let me know your contact info...email or phone should be great.

i am located in actually located in dredsen and looking for some tax-consultant whos speaks goo in english too.. my tax-consultant is not really good in english and i have to rely on german language..
I am sure i am still not enough perfect to undrstand all complex financial german langugage terms

regards

Thanks Fred!!

@memory
My email adress is
Friedrich.Koop@gmx.de

What is the best place to check for ammendments to rules and regulations on taxation?

1. Can someone please send me a copy of Unterhaltsbescheinigung (english-german)at gagan4sonu@yahoo.com......thanks.

2. I know there is a limit of 1920 euro for parent support. But I want to know that to how many persons (dependents) I can send this 1920 euros?

Hi simu2004,

You can send to as many people as you want. In your immediate family you can send to your mom and dad. Sisters, brothers are not considered family here :-(.
After that you can send money to the parents of your mom or dad or to the parents of your grandparents.............
the family tree just goes up and not sideways!!!

Hope this helps

Rajesh

@simu:

Please download from here:
http://www.e77.de/download/

@raj:
The parents of your spouse are also considered as relatives of First Decree.

Thanks fred. My assumption was that the guy is still a bachelor like me ;-)

:-)

Thanks Fred/Raj...well I am married and have a son as well...
For sake of confirming, If I send 5760(1920*3)euros to three dependents(my mom, my wife's mom and my grandma) in india as per normal rules (like I have to send monthly and have to start from Jan.), I can claim tax refunds of approx 30% of 5760...is it correct?

Well, there is no rule which says it must be sent on a monthly basis. It must be in regular intervals.

My Tax Consultant recommends the first week of every quarter!

Dear All,

Can you please send me some info on the topic discussed as above(claiming tax benefits for money sent to parents in India). Is there any site(english) which details it ?

Thanks and Regards,
Savera

Well whatever u need is in this forum topic itself. Read through all the messages or else consult a Tax-Consultant(Steuerberater)