Hi all,

I have been following the site for quiet some time, I think it is helpful to many GCs. Now I wanted to write my 2 cents about the issue of GC.
I believe that I have a good view on the german society, I spent since I was a teenager until about 25 years of age here in Germany. I know a bit of the culture here. The german society is not an will NOT be a Multi Kulti Cultures, the politics and the pepole don't want it and therefore the foreigners will always will looked down at, no matter who they are and what educational background they have. The PisaII confirms also that this society segragates, just like south africa did, only it is not done openly. This country does not have an anti discrmination law, or what it has has no teeth. I would advise any foreigner not to put any roots down in Germany, even if you think you are making it, which is mostly only temporarly, think of the opportunities your childern will have, they end up most likely in der "Hauptschule" and that is a dead end. The germans are very stubborn and will not change their system or learn from other countries and their politics will not change either. Politicians like Stoiber or Beckstein for example are Nazis, all the way, they only have sometimes a smile on their face, that is only the difference from the past. And of course as the economy gets worse the foreigners will be at fault, in the eyes of the society and because they don't speak German :-)) this discussion about integation is a big joke, you want to integrate people? well you got to put them at least on equal footing with others, just walk down the street and see when police stops a foreigner he or she asks him first for his visa papers, this all is becuase of his looks, the Gestapos used to do that too with the jews. Oh well, this got to be a bit long but my advise to you all is to look for jobs in other countries where you will be accepted and welcomed and where your children will have a better chance. O personally think the job situation in germany will get worse, the german companies are doing very well but not the workfore, the whole east block is a big challenge for germany and I don't think they can take up that challenge, has a bit with being stubborn to do :-))

Hi JJ

I agree with you. Does not mean that I hate germans or germany, but i think this place is not suitable for foreigners. Tho i speak german i am finding it difficult to integrate. I see quite a lot of GCs in this forum discuss most of the time about PR, citizenship, settling down, integration etc., I am not sure what they have found great which i have not. I am not offending anyone here. Just my views.

Rgds, Asian

running after CS or PR does not mean he will certainly stay here forever. it's just a security for the whole life for the foreigners coming from a third world country. it's just a great opportunity.

regards,

mk

Hi :-)

I don't hate germans or germany, don't take me wrong but I think the effort put in by some people here is not worth the outcome. Integration is not just knowing the language. I thibk there are plenty of other counties where the effort would be worth. It makes me sad to see how some people struggle, not to say beg, to get a PR here. In the long run they won't be happy here and neither their families.

Cheers

@JJ

you are right my friend. ;)

we all know about the facts!

regards,

mk

As the topic of the forum says “It’s a Waste of Time” discussing it once again as it was discussed earlier.

Suppose we can catergorize people into three types
1. People who like it here very much and like to stay longer. (minority)
2. People who don’t like it very much but want to stay longer. ( majority)
3. People who don’t like it here and don’t want to stay. ( minority )

Well myself and other GC’s talking about the PR, Citizenship all are in the 2nd category mostly. What one finds great need not be necessarily great for the others.

Personally, financially and professionally I am very content with things here in germany and I hope most of the other GC’s would agree with that.
Everyone had great expectations coming to this country. Some are successful in realising their dreams and others not. Everyone has faced problems or rejections one time or the other, but doesn’t mean you have to quit trying.

Integration is a very generic term. Everyone can make their own intepretation of what they want it to be.

Cheers
Rajesh

Hallo Raj,

I am sure you have heard the government's slogan of : "Kinder statt Inder". I think you'll be much happier in UK. The east european immigrants blend in the society much better than you ever will and they are not considered so much as foreigners.

NoCheers

Having a German PR or Citizenship can bring other benefits. One does not need to be in Germany after getting those. I know that a PR will be automatically invalid, when one stays out of the Germany more than 6 months but this will not be the case for EU area in the near future.(probably will include UK as well. Meaning that a PR given by a member state will be valid in all member states.)
There is already some kind of law framework which describes how this should be handled. This needs to be accepted by the individiual member states of the EU.
I believe after getting EU consitution voted in all EU member states successfully(will happen at the end of this year), other EU wide policies will come into effect. So one has to take into consideration all advantages and disadvantages of being in Germany. We should accept that in some areas, Germans do have the cutting edge technology which other developed countries dont have. This is also an important aspect to consider for knowledge workers like us, looking after challanges.

Regards,

Lacrima

PS: Yes, right-wing politicians openly show their foreigner-hate in their speeches.(I can give examples, if someone has an objection to that, "Kinder statt Inder" is one example) and they claim that this is because of their patriotism (in other words nationalism). They like to abuse the "foreigner-dislike" of an average German. This is easy politics to get votes. People tend not to like different speaking/looking/behaving people. This is in the human nature and like a primitive instinct. If a political party tries to abuse this primitive instinct, this is cheap/easy way of getting votes. Using the religion in party name and in the speeches/politics of the party is another cheap way of getting votes of an avarage citizen. (Right wing parties in Germany doing both)

Hi JJ,
Thanks for pointing out the “Kinder statt Inder” slogan. But those things have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Even the Germans themselves are not mass producing babies just because some dumb politician asked them to.
Maybe you would have already seen the photo “The Indian Greecardlers are here” which shows a train with people hanging all over it. But actually I found it funny instead of being angry. One can’t take offense for each and every thing said about my people or country. There is always a time to show one’s patriotism.

No thanks for your suggestion that I will be well off in UK. Germany is much better. Believe me I have inside information ;-) from UK about what is happening there. Even my own country is not lagging behind when it comes to discrimination. So I don’t have no right to complain about other countries.

Anyway what makes you think East Europeans blend much better than I ever will? Is it because I can be identified by my hair or skin colour?

Cheers
Rajesh

Assumption: there is nothing like "perfect place" anywhere including one's own country.

Fact: Every country/system has its pros and cons.

Result: To stay or leave a country is highly personal decision based on one's own experiences and liking. so all said and done, this affair can't be viewed in black and white. And not only in gray but there are many shades of this discussion.

I would say not a word against Germany, because it has sheltered me and offered an opportunity to work here. If my own country offered me same opportunity and living standard, why would I think of moving out permanently at all! Same applies for many here. If I can not mingle with people due to my not knowing German or my "cultural thinking" or whatever, I am responsible for that not Germany!

Despite knowing German, despite trying to mingle with people here, if someone "less understanding or frustrated" points to me because of his/her lack of whole picture, Should I run away? may be not because "they do not know what they are doing".

Infact, I really appreciate the tolerance of average German people not only to foreigners but also towards some "rude" Germans. And most Germans know that "good" politician is hard to find and there are no rules or moral in politics. And many Germans also understand that Gcs or qualified people help German economy in long term.

Suppose Germany forces GCs out after 5 years due to xyz reason! It is bad for Gcs but Germany has right to do so because after all this is their land and little bit because GCs were first "invited" for 5 years only legally and were not "kidnaped" from their countries. However, It is highly unlikely that something like of this extreme happens in current economical situation.

"It is bad for Gcs but Germany has right to do so because after all this is their land"

If german companies can so easily sell their products in another country, then the citizens of that country should be able to work also in that german company.(eventually in Germany)

If they are so proud and want to close their borders to foreigners, then they have to stop also all trading with other countries.

Your argumentation is totally wrong. The main theory of capitalism says: Free-trade, free-movement of goods and free movement of labour.. the markets will give the right value for every good and also for the cost of the labour.

I dont want to give the impression that I defend capitalism here, but if they insist that the rules of the game is according to capitalism then they should always remember also the theory of capitalism. If there is free-trade, then there must be also free-movement of labour. The other way around is exploitation. As easy as that.

As long as they sell products to my country to provide the wellfare that they have here, I have the right to share that welfare as a citizen of that country.

Regards

Lacrima

münchner:

"If my own country offered me same opportunity and living standard, why would I think of moving out permanently at all"

Then, let's make it! I beliave that your voice will be heard in home country, that we will build a better condition there. Let's make our home country better, just like the Germans made it. Trust7 could also offer law service for (ex-)GCers who want to build business in import/export with German companies.

Regards EE

It's not about justice - it doesn't exist except in movies and books. The system is simply made that way that it appears just enough to the average citizent and allow one to sleep at night and that's all. So, I personally don't want to look at it from the point of "right and wrong", but more from practical and rational point of view. I can understand that the government is limiting the length of our stay within certain (immigration) program, I accept that we have to take some integration course and take a test in language and history (some countries are doing so) for those who want to stay longer and apply for PR or citizenship. BUT, as long as we're here (short or long term) give us the same rights you're giving your own citizens, because we _are_ paying the same fees and tax, too - the state didn't limit us there at all.

And personally, I have had numerous cases of close encounters with xenophobia - though I'm European and in spite of living in Nordrhein-Westfalen (my German is not a catastrophy either). There are for example usual problems when searching for a flat - I stopped counting refusals long ago. In couple of stores they refused to sell me a mobile phone on contract. Then I had a neighbour in 'mehrfamilienhaus' who always went into inspection how I have cleaned the stairs because "I'm Auslander and Auslanders do not know anything about hygiene" (her words). Maybe it would be different if I had a Mercedes SLR parked outside, but I'm not "over 84K guy" unfortunately. Not that I'm saying that all Germans are like this - God forbid - but situations like these on key matters (like in appartment case) leave a bad taste in mouth. All this makes an influence on motivation, but all of you understand it already anyway.
I'm satisfied professionally, financial situation isn't really bad either, but social life equals zero and this is the one that kills on longer track.

P.S.
Whoever I spoke with, no one has ever heard about Only Fools and Horses, Faulty Towers, Allo-Allo, Father Ted, Vicar of Dibly, etc??

>Whoever I spoke with, no one has ever heard about
>Only Fools and Horses, Faulty Towers, Allo-Allo,
>Father Ted, Vicar of Dibly, etc??

Well I have heard about Only Fools and Horses and Allo-Allo :-) It is/was actually very popular in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia. But if they would synchronize it in German it would be totally b.s., it makes sense only with original soundtrack. The Simpsons with German voices are also nothing compared with original...

"It is I, Leclerc" is quite hard to translate in German :-)

Hi,

I decided long time ago to move from Germany to another country, like the USA, because of the reasons JJ explained clearly. I buyed Multimedia-CDs to praxis my english and then in summer I'll start to apply for a new job.

My best friend in Germany is a german, but I have problems with most of the other germans. At the Auslanderbehorde or at the arbeitsamt I always have problems. I never saw the officers smiling to me.

I think, for most of the german people, integration/immigration means "privileged partnership".

Most of the foreigners have problems with the education of their kids, while they mostly have to go to the "Gesamtschule" or "Hauptschule".

A turkish family here, couldn't get a pass for their new born baby, because they wanted to give him a turkish name. They have to give a german name for their baby, because the mother and father have german pass. Maybe they get a pass after the process, but it is enough to see the future of "Auslander in Deutschland".

KaaN

HI all,

Its interesting to note the different opinions of people about living Germany.

I am staying abroad of india since 1988.i Did some of my studies in england worked with people of Different cultures all over the world staying for long durations in Middle east, UK, US, South America etc. I find it difficult to take the arguement of people eyeing for PR as a priority.

I still hv my Indian passport and nw for the last 4 years am here in Grmany. There are pros n cons with the society. simply by hearing the politicians "Inderstatt "slogan doesnt mean they hate indians. Thats politicians way of getting vote bank of an average German.

Eventhough I find it difficult here without good command of german language, its not bad as i see in other parts of the world, The so called english speaking counties like US (where 70 to 75 % of the population belives there is nothing outside US till the recent past of IRAQ and KUWAIT). Even though the 60+ aged of the germans has a passive discriminatory attitude, Its much less than what we see even in Our countries.

Th east europeans Blend easyier than US fm Aisa is a fact and this can not be taken as criteria for being looked down at colured people. Germany has history of Guest workers put the country on the top till the early 70's when they started getting stricter on Guest workers. Now again with demographic problems they are facing it again. The East europeans have a bgood chance to a good life in germany.

In my opinion we have to have concept of Global village and Wealth sharing concept and be a part of it. If this is not the case nobody will outsource anything to india and china. Anybody says they lost thier jobs due to outsourcing are just bluffing. Dont you think these companies will survive in Europe and US? So as a part of wealth sahring, they have done this for their survival and success.

There is a cultural difference for those who come to germany in terms of living, attitude, social life and food(which indians can not compremise. If you wanna stay here on long term basis you got to make room for all these. Othere wise For me Home is always back n I dont have a problem with that.

Enjoy your stay in germany or wherever you are.

Warm Regards

Sony

Hello Kaan,

I read your statement and become curious:
"Most of the foreigners have problems with the education of their kids, while they mostly have to go to the "Gesamtschule" or "Hauptschule"."

What do you mean with that?
that even our children are smart enough, they don't have any other choice of education?

If I have a child, I would like to send him/her to university instead of doing some training.

cheers,


VP_2004

Hi all,

FYI , germany has the most segrated school system in the industrial world, it is not my saying, PISA II says it too. My daughter is the only foreign born kid in er class in gymnasium and there are very very few foreigners in the school. In bayern of course is the at worst, but it is still how it was that worker kids and foreigner kids go to "hauptschule" and german higher society kids goe to gymnasium, inform yourself before you put down roots.

Gruss

Thanks for your info.

If the kid is smart, I think there isn't any chance for the autority to not allowed the path that he choose.

Unless you are saying that even the kid is smart, he can't go to gymnasium because of he is foreighner. Then it is very very bad.

I have had enough in my own country.

cheers

--"I read your statement and become curious:
"Most of the foreigners have problems with the education of their kids, while they mostly have to go to the "Gesamtschule" or "Hauptschule"."

What do you mean with that?
that even our children are smart enough, they don't have any other choice of education?

If I have a child, I would like to send him/her to university instead of doing some training.

cheers,


VP_2004"


vp you obviously have no kids.
Germany has very nasty education system.
Main problem is that you can go to Uni only after Abitur which you get only in Gymnasium.
Without it you can go to FH but than you need 2-4 years of work before.
Second problem is that they decide who will go to Gym and after 4. class.
Litle bit too early. What is even worse they do not give notes first two years.
So poor children have only 3. and 4. class to take care about their future.
If they mess it, than damage is allmost irreparable.
Where would ou be if you would decide after 4. class for your future.

So in short those that have no luck or no well informed parents, will probably have to go to the "Gesamtschule" or "Hauptschule" and that means no future for them.

You are right DVD and I don't plan to have 1 in the near future. I consider the education for my kid as 1 reason not to have 1.

I always thought that it is a fair competition between the kids, the smarts go to gym and the unfortunate go to the less. It is a bad system to determine the kid future in 4 class (probably in 10 or 11 years?). No wonder so many people go to Ausbildung. Look at other country, you have to get at least BE to get job. Now master is even more and more.

cheers.

"Look at other country, you have to get at least BE to get job. Now master is even more and more."

In De it will be similar. People without high school can not find job allready. Even with uni it is hard to get it but without any school, it is imposible.

Hi everybody,

I followed this discussion from the beginning, maybe you are interested what a German thinks?

I want to pick just 2 points. First, that it is not easy to get in contact with us (Germans) and that we are not open to foreigners.

I think this depends on the age of the German and of the place where he lives. It is easier in big cities, then with the people of the country side, or in small towns, and it is easier with younger people.

But all together... yes we are not so nice, not so open minded like other nations. I, myself, am still thinking about living in New Zealand, USA or Australia. I have been there and I met so many nice people, but on the other hand, we have something to offer in Germany, too.

But I do nat want to praise my own country, so I do not give examples :-)

Let me just tell you, that it would be very difficult for me, as a 'Berliner', to live somewhere else in Germany. If you move to another part of the country you are also a foreigner, even you are a German. Ask a Bavarian about 'Berliners' or the other way round!

Dinner is ready, so I have to go downstairs or I will get problems with my wife...

But let me talk about the 2nd point. What JJ said about our school system is wrong! Every child has the chance to go to a Gymnasium and to study. Even if the child comes from a poor family. One reason is, that nobody has to pay for the school and nobody has to pay for the University. If someone studies and he has no rich parents, he will be supported by the state.

And if you go the Gymnasium or not will be decided after 4 or 6 years, depending on the 'Bundesland' where you are living.

Sure, if the parents are bad educated themselves and they do not take care about their kids, these kids have very few chances to get the education they would need. But this is no matter of poorness, it is a matter of ignorance or stupidness of their parents.

Whow, I wish my English would be better.

By for today and please leave something good with Germany!

I hope that trust7 can be a comfort for all of you, when you feel down and lonesome and so far away from your home :-)

By
Detlef

I think Detlef is right.
My dormitory friend, he came from farmer background who went to UNI, he said his father didn't support him for UNI. Anyway, i am happy for him that he decided the right things to do.

Why don't people start to initiate changes in education system so people is able to continue to UNI?

Hi all,

of course every body has the chance to go to gymnasium here, that chance is only on the books but not in reality, it is a "selection system" or "Auslese". You just need to read the PISA report. What I don't understand and that is also said in the PISA study is how one can look a 9 or 10 year old child in the eyes and say that you are no good, you are a looser and that is why you will be sent to "Hauptschule", which is a dead end, in terms of education. I know things may be worse in some third world countries, but this not a third world country. I personally think that would it not be for the US the bavarias would rise again and start another world war, Stoiber and Co.

Gruss

Come on JJ, it's not _that_bad_ so that we have to include world war into this story. I've seen (and felt on my back) right winged politicians in other countries and some of them are far more worse than Stoiber. They always emerge on the surface when the economy situation is bad - everywhere, so I don't see why it wouldn't be so in Germany too. Not that I approve it, but that's just how it goes.
BTW, everybody is making fun of Bavarians in the rest of the Germany anyway.

You are all forgetting one thing: the German government didn't invite us to settle down here in the first place - they allowed us initially to work here on limited time basis. And we accepted this contract. Now we are getting more, because it seems that someone has realized that the state could benefit additionally from our longer stay here. This means that we could also gain more (although some things are not exactly our cup of tea).

Detlef, you are absolutely right about one thing: Berlin is just like another state within Germany - one can really feel the difference between B and some other parts of the country.
Yes, you Germans are really closed people; one can see it by walking the streets after 8pm - there's nobody out, all windows are closed, drapes are on, etc. It looks like a scene from some movie about a small town in American middle west, where werewolfs and zombies from nearby graveyard raid the town each night after sunset - and only us, poor foreign suckers do not know the trick to hide on time
The main problem lies elsewhere; in the South (where I come from) people are too much laid back and hedonists, but here people do not know when and how to relax. Only work and sleep. There's time for work and for being serious, but let's have some fun after working hours. And by "having fun" I don't mean exclusively "help the beer industry". If there was more balance between these two points, all foreigners would feel much more at home here.

Hi all,

I couldn't agree more with detlef, who I think must not be german :-)) I know he is well traveled and a very well informed person and please know this that my frustration is not pointed at him, personally. I agree totally with him, it is time to get out of here, Germany will have big social problems and they are not prepared to deal with it. The economy will have more and more jobless and the blame will be on the foreigners and the right wing will become more aggressiv. When Siemens and the likes are laying off people in 1000s, i.e. in Munich, then you know it is time to leave, those people have almost no prospects for a new job because the economy is not expanding, the companies are, but not the workforce here. I am heading out coming summer, have contributed enough (too much) to this society.
Anyway, another thing to PISA, there were suggestions to count out the foreign kids out of the survey because they are the ones who bring down the point averages, clearly the 2 class society attitude.

Gruss

Yes, it was clear still in 2003 that the following years will be a bumpy road (since no progress has been made in two years since downfall in 2001). Many have left already.

Even for people looking for the way out there might be an interesting development of the situation: there's been talk about this new law that says that a PR issued in one EU country will be accepted as PR in any other EU country. So, in this light PR looks like a nice investment - get it and be mobile.

I agree with Detlef, and can somehow understand what JJ means. For a foreigner, there is no chance of making a career. for the second generation it could be higher or if a foreigner marries a German. I’m here for about 4 years, at the first I taught if I learn German I can be integrated much better, can find many German friends, can feel that I belong to this society and …
But now I can speak/read/write German. Neither my situation nor my opinion has been improved. Most of the foreigners who I know agree with me in this point. Germans are not bad but they are closed and their mentality is against the foreigners.
I think when someone decide to live here must accept the situation and be integrated in this cold society. However there are also many advantages which must be considered like social benefits, high technology, strong infrastructure and etc.
Therefore everyone has to trade off between different parameters and decide to stay or leave. I think it is not logical someone who is very discontented with this society, still wants to stay and live here.
By myself I have had no problem with Germans. However I’m thinking about leaving here for somewhere else like Canada or Australia. After leaving here, for sure I will not have a negative opinion about Germany. Every culture has own good and bad things but the people should see both, not the bad things only. It is important that every culture respect the other cultures and mentalities (so long there is no danger for the human rights!) :-)

Hi all,

to say it plainly, a foreigner has always been second class citizen, and it is and it will be so in germnay. If you can accept that for yourself and for your kids then Germany is a beautiful place to live in with all the nice infrastucture, ...etc. And of course you should also accept that foreigners can't make careers. Do you see any older foreigners working as engineers at your work place, no they got rid of them. Integration in a society dos not depend on language alone, the more you know the language the more you become aware of how you can not intregrate, it is system depended, not language.

Be happy

"to say it plainly, a foreigner has always been second class citizen"..

Not a foreigner is always a second class citizen, only the foreign workers (GC's) are considered second class citizens here. Language is not a barrier in this country for integration. If you know the language or not you are still considered the same. (based on my experience).

"It is important that every culture respect the other cultures and mentalities"

I am afraid the way it is going in Germany and may be in most of western Europe is not a full application of the above statement, in other words many people are talking too much about respecting the other cultures and mentalities but when you look at the ground you only find "respecting the local culture and mentality".

I am working in a Europian environment, everybody speaks English including the Germans, in most the cases I find lots of people are not able to even understand other cultures and mentalities, what about respecting!!

People here are brought-up while looking down to other cultures, I think they are far way from reaching "respect" level.

To be honst I have to say that this changes from one European nationality to the other, also it changes from one person to the other.

It is just my point of view, I might be right and I might be wrong.

Have a good afternoon.

W.

Hello Asian,

i think you are wrong to said foreign workers is second class .
You certainly haven't been a student here.